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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: PatCT on Sunday 25 October 15 00:22 BST (UK)
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I discovered that my husband's 2nd great aunt married a Michael Cuyler or Kuyler or Kieler or (today) Kilor. He was born in New York City, but his parents were born in Ireland. I've seen Cuyler and Kuyler in censuses, Kieler on their children's baptismal records and, from about 1900 on, the family name is Kilor. Any thoughts on the original spelling?
Thanks
Pat
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I never came across the name before, there is one family in the 1901 Census in County Down, and looking online it appears to be a Dutch name. The Irish Times don't include in in their surname list but there are some Colyers in Limerick in the 1860s
You can they out variations here http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/
Have you any idea of dates when they were in Ireland?
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The name looks foreign, doesn't look Irish or Gaelic?
You could check these out.........
http://forebears.io/surnames/kuyler
http://www.myirishancestors.co.uk/irish-surnames.html#K
http://www.dochara.com/the-irish/surnames/irish-surnames-k-l/
http://www.irishpenpals.org/surname/irish-family-surnames.php
Annie
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Irish Genealogy church records are usually good for throwing up variations but in this case it doesn't although it has one Cuyler in Dublin in 1837 and another in Cork in 1795 so there was the odd one or two around.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gct/
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It looks foreign to me too. The usual spelling is Keeler - a man who makes "keels" for boats.
When you check all the spellings on the Distribution map (website already given), you'll get a good idea of which country of origin each of the spellings has.
Having said that - I see on familysearch.org that there's a few Irish births for "Kieler". Just enter the surname and search, then click on "Collections" and on that page only choose Irish births/baptisms, otherwise the results will include entries from USA census which you don't want. All appropriate sounding surnames and Irish spellings will be in the results.
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Although your ancestors were in Ireland I think they must have arrived in a tree carved boat from elsewhere ;D
Annie
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Thanks, everyone. This seem to have arrived in New York about 1840 or so.
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This seem to have arrived in New York about 1840 or so.
If they were illiterate when arriving in New York it's possible they were given/assumed a Dutch surname similar in sound to their Irish name and gradually the spelling evolved with the variations listed.
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Kiely springs to mind.
Do you want to post details on the family to see can we work out if they were in fact Irish ?!
Tara
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Tara, all I have on the parents and siblings is the 1860 US Federal Census (Cuyler), parents birthplace Ireland. They don't appear anywhere else. The son, Michael, appears on Trinity Church NYC baptismal records for his children's baptisms (Kieler), children's birth records (Cuyler), city directories (Kilor). I didn't know if I was allowed to add the links here. He was born about 1846 and died around 1879. I don't find him anywhere else.
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Unless these are all the one family ~ the name doesn't seem nearly as rare as I thought.
UGH if we had an inkling of the County then saying it with THAT counties accent in mind would help for sure.
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Acuyler~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Aireland~
Tara
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~ Can you write it up phonetically here as how you have been pronouncing it 'til now ?!
Tara
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Anyone here make an attempt with a Cork accent ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6Z-Y5H
Tara
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I have an inkling it's Kelleher !
Tara
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Some Cork folk don't emphasise the H in Kelleher and so it become KEY LER.
I've a friend who has Cork Kelleher blood and when the family went to the States the name was changed to something totally different as there were that many issues with it !
I'm pretty confident then that the surname that you are looking at it in fact Kelleher.
I'm open to debate ;D ;D ;D
Tara
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Unless these are all the one family ~ the name doesn't seem nearly as rare as I thought.
UGH if we had an inkling of the County then saying it with THAT counties accent in mind would help for sure.
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Acuyler~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Aireland~
Tara
That list is taken from the American census and the births are calculated from the census, thus it doesn't answer the question of what was the actual spelling in the land of origin.
Most experienced am. historians find it's always helpful to have an idea of how the people speak where the name originates/originated from. One simple example is one of my lines is a "Shearing" but when one member of the family moved to another county his dialect made it sound like "Sharrin" and that's what the local census clerk wrote down.
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Hi Rena
My point in posting that link was to show my train of thought ~
The list was to show that the unusual spelling of a surname to an Irish family was not restricted to just the OPs family.
The list was to start to see was there any pattern to those on the list and to deduce WERE they in fact Irish, and where may they have come from in Ireland if so.
The list then showed a Cornelious appearing ~ a Christian name that features heavily in Cork.
This Cork train of thought led to someone else on that same list, with the same unusual spelling, that was born in Cork.
It is then, with full knowledge of a Cork accent that leads to fresh eyes looking at that same list of names that leads to my belief that the surname was Kelleher.
Which goes back to the OPs original question, what did we think their family surname was in Ireland.
So, can you see how it does answer the question ?!
Tara
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MC73-FSF
This is the family. Today, it is pronounced (with a Brooklyn, NY accent ) Ki (the I is a long I - pronounced eye) lor (the lor as in lord). Ki-lor.
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Did you ever get a marriage for John & Catherine ?
Tara
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No, Tara, I haven't yet. I'm assuming they married in or about 1876. Their children were born in 1867, 1873, and 1875 but weren't baptized until 1876. It doesn't seem they were married for the first three (one other died). Since Michael's wife's family and his children attended Trinity Church, I've asked the archivist if he could look further. I know some records were destroyed in a fire but I have my fingers crossed.
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Ooops, I was referring to Michael and his wife. The only thing I've found on John and Catharine, was the census.
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Hi Rena
My point in posting that link was to show my train of thought ~
The list was to show that the unusual spelling of a surname to an Irish family was not restricted to just the OPs family.
The list was to start to see was there any pattern to those on the list and to deduce WERE they in fact Irish, and where may they have come from in Ireland if so.
The list then showed a Cornelious appearing ~ a Christian name that features heavily in Cork.
This Cork train of thought led to someone else on that same list, with the same unusual spelling, that was born in Cork.
It is then, with full knowledge of a Cork accent that leads to fresh eyes looking at that same list of names that leads to my belief that the surname was Kelleher.
Which goes back to the OPs original question, what did we think their family surname was in Ireland.
So, can you see how it does answer the question ?!
Tara
Yes, I do Tara - I was agreeing with you. (especially as I can't find my husband's Mcarty (McCarthy) family lol)
As a last resort. One point at the back of my mind is Ireland had visiting sailors who could have settled there and also had several army barracks. Although I believe the Hessian/Hannoverian army was stationed in southern England, I believe that once cashiered out of the army many moved northward to find work and presumably could have met and married an Irish girl.
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Hi Pat
If you get any leads then get back to us.
BTW What do you think to my Kelleher theory ;D ?
Tara
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Hi Rena
Yes, We Irish beguile any that set foot on our shores ;D
Tara
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Hi Rena
Yes, We Irish beguile any that set foot on our shores ;D
Tara
;D ;D ;D
P.S. I notice you said "Irish" - have all the Oirish with Begorrahs and Bejabers gone, or do they live in another part of Ireland? :D
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Hi Rena
Yes, We Irish beguile any that set foot on our shores ;D
Tara
;D ;D ;D
P.S. I notice you said "Irish" - have all the Oirish with Begorrahs and Bejabers gone, or do they live in another part of Ireland? :D
They all moved to Hollywood.
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Hi Rena
Yes, We Irish beguile any that set foot on our shores ;D
Tara
;D ;D ;D
P.S. I notice you said "Irish" - have all the Oirish with Begorrahs and Bejabers gone, or do they live in another part of Ireland? :D
They all moved to Hollywood.
Hee hee :D