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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: FWaters on Friday 23 October 15 14:44 BST (UK)
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Hi
Please can someone tell me if this is a Merchant Navy or a Royal Navy uniform?
I think it was MN but my father insists that as his stepfather was only a Donkeyman in the MN he would not have had a uniform. Is this true?
If it is MN can someone point me in right the direction to identify the cap badge?
Thanks so much.
Fiona
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Looks like a Chief Petty Officer Royal Navy or RNR
James
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The cap badge is a bit fuzzy but I don't see the small laurel of a CPO. I suggest Petty Officer RN
C
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Timeframe. ?
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Same man. ?
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Hi
As you think Royal Navy then this may apply to his time on HM Rescue Tugs which was 1942-1945. I guess it was taken about 1945 as in the original picture are his children who would have been around 10 and 5 at the time.
I've never heard any mention of him being a Petty Officer though.
Unfortunately the original is fuzzy too so I can't make out the badge.
Thank you for your replies.
Fiona
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He could be CPO or PO Royal Naval Reserve or RN, he may have been on Tugs prior to the war and been a reservist in RNR.
James
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He was in the Merchant Navy from 1938 to 1960, only on HM Rescue Tugs between April 1942 and November 1945. This is why I queried the uniform.
Thanks for your help.
Fiona
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When was the Royal Fleet Auxiliary formed?
HM rescue tugs were perhaps manned by the Merchant Navy?
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I notice he is wearing several medal ribbons which, if they are WW2 Campaign medals, would suggest this photo was taken just post-war.
I'm not well acquainted with naval uniform but, for some reason, "Artificer" comes to mind.
Is the white scarf significant ?
Can you check the naval service records to establish that this is your man ?
Maec
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This is the uniform of an RNR Chief Petty Officer called in 1939 medal issued 1943 served Merchant Navy pre ww2 and released RNR 1946. Attachment failed, will try later
James
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On the subject of HM Rescue Tugs I have found a thread running on the Royal Navy ships section of www.worldnavalships.com/forums. There seem to be quite a few people who know a lot about their history and may be able to help you.
C
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The apparent medals are worn much hig her up than current . And the ribbons are longer than is normal
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As has been stated his service in the MN spans 1938 - 1960. From 1942 - 1945 he may have been RNR or possibly have signed T124T articles for service with HM Rescue Tugs. Ratings on T124 agreements were effectively part of the RN - keeping their MN pay but being subjected to the Naval Discipline Act.
Their service records are held at Kew in BT 390. If you need any further help with records could you supply a name date and place of birth?
Regards
Hugh
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Hi and thanks for all your replies.
I have my grandfather's Seaman's Discharge Books from 1938 to 1961 so know the dates are all correct. I only found out a couple of days ago what a T124T agreement is - this is on his record next to the period he was with the Rescue Tugs. I saw that a copy of this is obtainable from the NA so have already requested an estimate to get a copy: Robert Thomas (should be Thompson) Ross born in Dundee 24/11/1894. No. on Continuous Certificate of Discharge R166771.
My reason for querying the uniform is that all the information I have states his rating as 'donkeyman', 'donkeyman + greaser' or 'fireman', even whilst with the Rescue Tugs.
If he was a CPO at the time then it is not mentioned anywhere on the records we have.
I too was puzzled by the ribbons and scarf.
I will keep digging. Thanks so much for all your input.
Fiona
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Hope this works, CPO uniform ww2 RNR minesweepers, medals 1943 star and LSGC, called on onset of hostilities and discharged 1946.
James
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The original poster's photo shows a Petty Officer RN. The second photo posted by James shows a Chief Petty Officer's cap badge.
I suspect during 1942 - 1945 he was not in the RNR as there would be no requirement to sign him up on a T124 agreement as he would already be in naval service. BT 390 will hopefully tell more including details of his medals from the Director of Naval Accounts. However, the file can be a bit hit or miss. Remember when on T124 they were for all intents and purposes considered part of the Royal Navy hence their medal entitlement comes under the DNA RN rather than the Registry of Shipping and Seamen.
It is possible that he was rated up to PO while on T124.
Regards
Hugh
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Thank you James and Hugh
Having compared my grandfather's photo side by side with the one you posted James, and having googled the different badges, I came to the same conclusion as Hugh, that the badges were different so he must have been Petty Officer. I will wait and see what I get from BT390.
This had been most helpful, thank you.
Fiona
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Hi macintosh,
Your post "CPO uniform ww2 RNR minesweepers, medals 1943 star and LSGC, called on onset of hostilities and discharged 1946." confuses me.
By the "1943 Star" do you mean the Africa Star or 1939-45 Star, both of which started to be issued in 1943 ?
And, if the other ribbon is the LSGC then doesn't this indicate 18 years service full time RN or 12/15 years RNR ? It seems odd that there is no mention of that in the papers held/seen by Fiona ?
Maec
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The pic of the CPO is my father, from his record he is awarded 10.4.1943 RNR medal for LSGC. with £50.00 gratuity.
Joined RNR 18th Oct 1929. Mobilised 10th. Oct 1939.
December 6th 1943 Ribbon for 1939-43 STAR Form S1075 Issued.
Maybe posting the pic has clouded the issue, it was just to show Fiona the uniform of a PO, CPO
James
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Thanks, James,
My mistake, I thought you were responding to my posting concerning the medal ribbons.
So : Can anybody have a stab at the ribbons shown in Fiona's picture ?
Maec