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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: jettejjane on Thursday 15 October 15 17:36 BST (UK)
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I am busy identifying Army pictures Grandad's Album Archibald Charles Redman. Not doing badly just a few left. He enlisted in Territorial Force, 4th Bn. Royal Sussex Regiment 1908-1913. Was in camp in Newhaven, Sussex. During WW! he was in Royal Fusiliers, London I am guessing. From his Medal card I learned he went to France in 1916 and my Uncle told me he was in the Battle of Delville Wood. Although not wounded in battle he was injured, lost a boot in trenches and stepped on some barbed wire-ouch! Was in hospital in France. He came home and in 1917 was at Craigleith Edinburgh convalescing.
Now at last my question. This photo as I said in heading is a puzzle. I don't think it is a real battle photo is it possible its some sort of training photo taken at Newhaven camp or am I wrong is it in France?
Jane
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Training exercise for sure.
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I agree, they are all far too clean and tidy for this to have been taken anywhere near a field hospital :D
Great picture though, lucky you!
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Training exercise for sure.
I agree, they are all far too clean and tidy for this to have been taken anywhere near a field hospital :D
Great picture though, lucky you!
Thanks both. Yes they do look too clean!
I have 15 wonderful pictures a real treasure, nearly all sorted. I am busy putting into book form, together with his fathers Army career and my Dad's and also my Gtx2 Grandfather' s son who was in Navy and lost his life on HM Orpheus in 1863 when it was wrecked on a sandbar in New Zealand.
I am enjoying it immensely and learning so much on the way, 4 generations of Redmans!
I am sure I will be back to pick your brains!
Thanks for replies
Jane :)
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Hi, I have to agree that it's a training exercise.
Regards
Frank
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Yes, they are wearing their cap liners. On campaign, they were removed to avoid reflecting the sun. So, the soft cap look. Even when out of the Line.
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Look at the boots of the men left front and the man on the stretcher. Clean as a whistle. Several of the men have smiles or near smiles. Look at the two wags playing off against each other in the second row from the back, one has a pipe, the other has pushed his cap back and is smoking something like a hand rolled cigarette.
Great photo, but I don't think it's a battlefield photo.
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Yes I agree with you all. Nonetheless it is a fantastic picture. Thank you Grandad for leaving such a wonderful record of your Army Days :D I consider myself very lucky.
In fact my wonderful Redmans have made my research so easy with all the documentation that havevbeen handed down since 1800's and is now mine :P
Jane
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I think they are also bandsmen who would be the stretcher bearers during any battle that would explain the "injured" man in the bottom of the photo and almost certainly a training exercise
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. Although not wounded in battle he was injured, lost a boot in trenches and stepped on some barbed wire-ouch! Was in hospital in France. He came home and in 1917 was at Craigleith Edinburgh convalescing.
Jane
Just may be of interest; https://youtu.be/x8OazQml0gw
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I think they are also bandsmen who would be the stretcher bearers during any battle that would explain the "injured" man in the bottom of the photo and almost certainly a training exercise
That'a a point, they are mostly wearing bandsman badges.
Frank.
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I think they are also bandsmen who would be the stretcher bearers during any battle that would explain the "injured" man in the bottom of the photo and almost certainly a training exercise
So bandsmen were so named because of the bands that carried the stretcher?
Not because they played in the band. Coincidentally Grandad did play in the band! Have learnt something else, thank you.
It is great how a simple question can lead to so much more, brilliant.
Regarding the "injured " man you could cut yourself on the creases on his trousers :o I didn't honestly think the pic was for real but had to ask.
So I will date that picture between 1908 -1913. Fantastic.
Jane :)
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. Although not wounded in battle he was injured, lost a boot in trenches and stepped on some barbed wire-ouch! Was in hospital in France. He came home and in 1917 was at Craigleith Edinburgh convalescing.
Jane
Just may be of interest; https://youtu.be/x8OazQml0gw
Thank you so much yes it was most interesting. Wow am learning so much today.
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Hi Jane.
I think you have misinterpreted what BW252 said about the bandsmen and what Frank said about the badges.
The men who were used as streatcher bearers, particularly in the early years of the war were very often the bandsmen - as in musicians. Frank is saying the badges some are wearing on their sleaves are their bandsmen badges (you can see they have a harp on them)
You can read up about it..a quick search brings up this for a start..
http://guysboroughgreatwarveterans.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/stretcher-bearers.html
and
http://www.mhhv.org.au/?p=811
Not sure what cap badges they are wearing. The fact they are wearing so many identifying badges does support the theory this was not taken at the front.
Milly
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Hi Jane.
I think you have misinterpreted what BW252 said about the bandsmen and what Frank said about the badges.
The men who were used as streatcher bearers, particularly in the early years of the war were very often the bandsmen - as in musicians. Frank is saying the badges some are wearing on their sleaves are their bandsmen badges (you can see they have a harp on them)
You can read up about it..a quick search brings up this for a start..
http://guysboroughgreatwarveterans.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/stretcher-bearers.html
and
http://www.mhhv.org.au/?p=811
Not sure what cap badges they are wearing. The fact they are wearing so many identifying badges does support the theory this was not taken at the front.
Milly
Thanks Milly. Yes I have a lot to learn, the links were helpful. I have 2 pics of Grandad in band one on Photographic Board - Archibald Redman in Band 1910
I know very little about Army facts and am learning slowly, there is a lot I don't understand in some of my posts, I read and 're read replies but do get confused. Then I don't like to bother people by asking too many questions. I also can't always find the sites that may help.
I think some replies I get are assuming I know the subject afraid am complete novice in matters military.
Jane
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Hi Jane
You can date it before 1912 as that was when Territorials who had signed the Imperial Obligation were issued with 'Imperial Service' badges.
Also, ask on the Photography section when men started to havecreases in their troiusers. I think it was late Edwardian. So 1909 to 1911?
Ken
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Hi, they all look to be wearing Royal Sussex cap badges but when enlarged it pixelates and becomes unclear, just one point, I just wonder if the stretcher bearer on the left as you look at the photograph is wearing a royal Sussex 4Th territorial shoulder title :-\ or am I clutching at straws.
http://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/E2A1a5851_4.jpg
Regards
Frank.
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The shoulder title looks to be T over 4 over Royal Sussex.
The one next to Jane's man is wearing three stars for five years service each as a parttimer.
Ken
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Hi Jane
You can date it before 1912 as that was when Territorials who had signed the Imperial Obligation were issued with 'Imperial Service' badges.
Ken
Hi, they all look to be wearing Royal Sussex cap badges but when enlarged it pixelates and becomes unclear, just one point, I just wonder if the stretcher bearer on the left as you look at the photograph is wearing a royal Sussex 4Th territorial shoulder title :-\ or am I clutching at straws.
http://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/E2A1a5851_4.jpg
Regards
Frank.
Thank you Ken and Frank.
To my untrained eye the cap badges all look to be Royal Sussex .
The one on the link looks like the one on the epaulette of second man from left front.
I googled the Territorial Imperial badge but cant see that one, thought it was one on epaulette but but has a flat bottom.
That leaves the badge on the upper arm, which one is that?.
I noticed the guy next to granddad has three stars on tunic lower arm, what are they please.
I am so sorry if I am being dense but am really trying to work all the badges out.
I think we all agree it is a training exercise possibly 1908-1912. Am right in thinking that group could be made up of different regiments who were being trained at Newhaven?
Oh dear, it would be quicker to train a monkey ???
Jane
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The shoulder title looks to be T over 4 over Royal Sussex.
The one next to Jane's man is wearing three stars for five years service each as a parttimer.
Ken
That came I after I posted, answers oe question thanks Frank :)
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The one next to Jane's man is wearing three stars for five years service each as a parttimer.
Ken
Thanks for that one Ken, that answers what would have been a question from me. :)
Regards
Frank
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Try - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Force_Imperial_Service_Badge
Ken
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Try - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Force_Imperial_Service_Badge
Ken
That's one I found. Where is it on uniform?
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Try - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Force_Imperial_Service_Badge
Ken
That's one I found. Where is it on uniform?
Hi, I suspect the man sat front row 5 from the right with swagger stick is wearing one.
Frank.
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What a wonderful photo! Their faces are so full of character. And I love all those handlebar moustaches! I'm not sure they could keep them that well maintained out on the front.
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Try - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Force_Imperial_Service_Badge
Ken
That's one I found. Where is it on uniform?
Hi, I suspect the man sat front row 5 from the right with swagger stick is wearing one.
Frank.
Yes a eureka moment at last, I see it to the right of the second button. Thank you.
Hsfam yes it is a real treasure. Each of the pics I have are fantastic I am lucky to have them, also I have learnt a lot from them thanks to everyone on Rootschat
I have probably tried your patience with my
questions and lack of understanding, but I am getting there, albeit very slowly. Every day is a school day. But unlike school I am enjoying this because I want to do it, not doing it because I have to.
Thanks for all your help.
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That's one I found. Where is it on uniform?
It was worn above the right breast pocket. My point being that after 1912 you would expect to see a few men wearing the badge.
I think what you have found (above the left pocket) is a ribbon for long service. And one man appears to be wearing a Boer War ribbon.
Ken
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That's one I found. Where is it on uniform?
It was worn above the right breast pocket. My point being that after 1912 you would expect to see a few men wearing the badge.
I think what you have found (above the le pocket) is a ribbon for long service. And one man appears to be wearing a Boer War ribbon.
Ken
Thank you for 're explaining. You were using the absence of the badge for dating purposes.
I am going to the library later to do some research, on all aspects of uniform and badges. I will take my pics maybe there will be someone researching who can talk me through a few things. I will not let it beat me. I need to be able to do this myself and stop bothering you all.
Your interest has been great and much appreciated.
Jane
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It is worth noting that many of the actual battlefield pictures including the famous one going over the top where a man falls early in the sequence were in fact posed for the camera. I just wonder where? Hardly near the front line I would think.
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The man with the swagger stick and the man to his left appear to be seated in the same positions in the other picture you posted of the band.
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The man with the swagger stick and the man to his left appear to be seated in the same positions in the other picture you posted of the band.
Yes I agree the body position of the big guy is so similar.
What a good bit of detective work. I have the two pics in front of me could very well be the same men.
I bet if we look hard enough we may find the same men in these two pics I have posted. One of the bad in normal uniform and another from the Newhaven Camp.
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Jane..please don't worry about asking too many questions. We love looking at old photos like this.
The experts on here may make it seem easy but it can actually be really complicated working out all the details. I am sure I am not the only one who gets to learn a little bit each time someone posts an interesting or unusual photo..
Milly
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Jane..please don't worry about asking too many questions. We love looking at old photos like this.
The experts on here may make it seem easy but it can actually be really complicated working out all the details. I am sure I am not the only one who gets to learn a little bit each time someone posts an interesting or unusual photo..
Milly
Aww Milly thanks you are very kind. But I do feel I am sometimes slow to understand a nd some people get short with me. But I do learn a lot.
I couldn't do all this without rootschat.
Jane :)
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.............................................I do feel I am sometimes slow to understand and some people get short with me.............................................
Jane :)
:o :o :o :o :o :o Please don't think like that Jane, I for one love the posts you put on with the photographs, as Milly said there is always something new to learn every time a topic is posted, I have learned loads since I joined RootsChat, not only on the Armed Forces board but on every board I visit.
Frank.
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.............................................I do feel I am sometimes slow to understand and some people get short with me.............................................
Jane :)
:o :o :o :o :o :o Please don't think like that Jane, I for one love the posts you put on with the photographs, as Milly said there is always something new to learn every time a topic is posted, I have learned loads since I joined RootsChat, not only on the Armed Forces board but on every board I visit.
Frank.
Frank, thank you so much. Your reply means a lot to me, together with Milly's.
What can I say? Just thanks for putting up with my endless questions.
Yes, every p o st I make I learn something new. I know so much more than when I started out on this wonderful hobby.
Jane x
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Hi Jane
The second photograph is c1905/1908. The bass drum is showing " ? Vol Battn". The regiment had two Volunteer Battalions. These became Territorial Force battalions in 1908.
The second photograph is 1903/4. Before this they would have had red tunics; and the peakless cap - the Broderick - was discarded about 1905 in the army. The Royal Marines kept the Broderick for about five more years.
Ken
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Hi Jane
The second photograph is c1905/1908. The bass drum is showing " ? Vol Battn". The regiment had two Volunteer Battalions. These became Territorial Force battalions in 1908.
The second photograph is 1903/4. Before this they would have had red tunics; and the peakless cap - the Broderick - was discarded about 1905 in the army. The Royal Marines kept the Broderick for about five more years.
Ken
Thank you Ken. This has thrown another spanner in the works.
The 4th Bttn Royal Sussex Regt. became the Territorial Force in 1st April 1908 which is when Grandad enlisted for 5 years this would fit it with all the pictures I have being taken at the Newhaven Camp, one that I have not posted actually has the date 1910 printed on the front. Both Band photo's I have must come from that period, together with the injured soldier training and a few others.
However the faded photo with the Broderick cap dated 1903/04 does not fit the timescale unless he was in the Army prior to 1908. I am looking at Grandad's appearance and possible age in all the photo's. The picture that confuses me most is the one I posted on Photographic board " Please can someone date this photo which war is it. Page 7, reply 58 and Page 8 reply 64. His age would have been 30 but he looks a lot younger than in some of the photo's taken earlier, specially the one 1903/04. Probably many of you replying to this one have seen that post.
During WW1 embodied, served in the Royal Fusiliers I have 2 pictures from this period one has writing on the back - Lewis Gun Training Course Catterick Reserve 1917. I know from his medal card he was in France 1916 injured his foot and came home, He convalesced in Craigleith hospital (photo was identified on Photographic Board). His address given as Portobello Chocolate factory in 1917 when he married in Sussex.
I am posting one more photo. This one shows him in what looks like a fencing team, probably in the Army, I say this because it was in the album with all the other Army pictures. I would date it around 1916.1917 from his appearance.
Jane
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Lovely clear photograph. The thing that people have missed is that they're all Bandsmen. Possibly the gent with the "Band Harp" on his cuff is possibly the Bandmaster.
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Mr Smith
Bandsmen crop up in earlier posts. Oooooops !
Simon