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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: eadaoin on Wednesday 07 October 15 20:01 BST (UK)

Title: Name on headstone
Post by: eadaoin on Wednesday 07 October 15 20:01 BST (UK)
I'm recording a graveyard in Co Wicklow at present. This inscription is giving me a problem, though the photograph i took is reasonably clear . .
I've posted a 150KB version, but the original is ~2.3MB

I can't read the person's name - I have all the rest of the inscription, but the name is in a different script - I can hazard a guess at the Christian name, but those whirly capital letters . .? ?

regards eadaoin
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: Barbara.H on Wednesday 07 October 15 20:12 BST (UK)
Margaret Henderson?

 :) Barbara
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: eadaoin on Wednesday 07 October 15 21:00 BST (UK)
Margaret looks good, thanks Barbara.

maybe Henders - the surname doesn't look quite long enough for Henderson . . I can see a "HENDE" anyway

regards eadaoin
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: cms on Wednesday 07 October 15 21:49 BST (UK)
What difficult script. Could it be Margaret Hardey? is Hardey even a name?
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: eadaoin on Wednesday 07 October 15 22:30 BST (UK)
Isn't it awkward to read, though very beautiful.
It would be easier if the whole thing was in that script - one could pick out words like "aged" and "died" etc

I think I'm leaning towards Hende.... the "e"s are like the "e" in Margaret.

regards eadaoin
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: Treetotal on Wednesday 07 October 15 22:43 BST (UK)
I wondered if it could be Hendem...or Henden.
Carol
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: Trishanne on Thursday 08 October 15 00:31 BST (UK)
I don't know if  this helps at all, I've tried to remove a lot of the background
Pat
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: Kezlyn on Thursday 08 October 15 00:35 BST (UK)
Hendrix
Hendric
Henderic?

Kez :)
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: ecksdochter on Thursday 08 October 15 01:34 BST (UK)
Hello eadaoin,
     With the background removed, surname looks like Hendrie.
               Regards,     Dod.

Added. Sorry, I meant Henderie.
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: bugbear on Thursday 08 October 15 08:31 BST (UK)
If you can take a shot with the light coming from a low angle, you'll get a clearer image;

Either:

Pick your time of day carefully
use a reflector (tinfoil on cardboard works well)
go at night with a torch... (there may be non-photographic difficulties with this approach...  ;) )

You can see the results of some of my experiments here:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=729041.msg5736621#msg5736621

and

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=700562.msg5436465#msg5436465


I also attached a pair of recent shots, taken at night with a torch; one with the torch straight on, one "raking".

These were intended for use with the "difference" trick, but weren't similar enough for the maths to work. They show the effect of light angle very well, though.

 BugBear
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: Barbara.H on Thursday 08 October 15 09:43 BST (UK)
Took a second look and was wondering about the surname third letter being y, not n. The n in the word 'in' (in the 50th year of..) does not go below the line as that letter does.
So maybe something like Heyden or Heydon?

Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: eadaoin on Thursday 08 October 15 12:16 BST (UK)
First, thank you all for your input, it's greatly appreciated!

Pat , thanks for that -looks like Henders  there

Took a second look and was wondering about the surname third letter being y, not n. The n in the word 'in' (in the 50th year of..) does not go below the line as that letter does.
So maybe something like Heyden or Heydon?

I'd discount that "n", Barbara - the "e"s and "d"s and "a"s are all different in the name, compared to what's in the rest. But you got me thinking . if the second letter were an "a", Hayden is a name

Bugbear, it's a problem getting down to the church (the one in my avater at present) - it's not a million miles away, but it's nearly 2 hours drive, so definitely not a night trip, and a bit lonely so I like to have a companion.
 I'm not sure that I can get a better photo . . (I'd no problem figuring out the other words )

I'll have to go back to do 2 other headstones where the photos weren't clear - maybe then . . I might use the finger-tracing technique!

At the moment I've transcribed it as HENDE_? I won't be uploading  these photos for a while - I've to straighten, crop, resize first, and maybe try to improve the contrast with some .

regards, eadaoin
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: bugbear on Thursday 08 October 15 12:27 BST (UK)
Bugbear, it's a problem getting down to the church (the one in my avater at present) - it's not a million miles away, but it's nearly 2 hours drive, so definitely not a night trip, and a bit lonely so I like to have a companion.
 I'm not sure that I can get a better photo . . (I'd no problem figuring out the other words )


You might consider trying some of my techniques on a more accessible, local, gravestone, before doing another 2 hour drive.

The light really can make a spectacular difference. I note in the UK that many cemeteries are closed at dusk, so the torch-at-night option might not be available.

With a normal East facing burial, the headstone faces West. As such, the sun from behind the stone before noon, side on at noon, and straight on at sunset (sun in the West). The best time to read or photograph a stone is somewhere between 1pm and 3pm, when the sun is on the face of the stone, but at a low angle.

(this actually depends a little on time zone and summer time and so on, but it's near enough).

 BugBear
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: eadaoin on Thursday 08 October 15 13:44 BST (UK)
When I move on to the next graveyard I'll try out some of your techniques - they sound useful.

Unusually, most of the stones in Greenane face NNE, but four of them, including this one, are slabs on the ground.
Naturally, they're in the darkest part of the graveyard, under trees to the east and south and in the shadow of the church to the west!

regards eadaoin
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: bugbear on Thursday 08 October 15 13:51 BST (UK)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/RAC-Heavy-Duty-Lantern-LEDs/dp/B005X7J06K

 :)

 BugBear
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Thursday 08 October 15 14:43 BST (UK)
Just curious, but which cemetary is this from?

Regards

Malky
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: eadaoin on Thursday 08 October 15 20:59 BST (UK)
Just curious, but which cemetary is this from?

This is from Greenane St Columba R.C., Co Wicklow Ireland. Rathdrum is the nearest town, I guess.
It's a small church with about 20 graves in the church grounds.

There's a much bigger cemetery with 100? 150? 200ish? graves about half a kilometre east of this - I think that's going to be my winter project, if I can persuade the troops to accompany me! (OH's family are from that general area, so whenever we go searching for family graves I take extra photos and "donate" them.
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: despair on Thursday 08 October 15 23:15 BST (UK)
This site gives her as Abigail Heyden-Grave 5

http://www.ancestorsatrest.com/cemetery_records/st_columbus_church_cemetery_greenane_wicklow.shtml

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 08 October 15 23:40 BST (UK)
Nice one Roger....I wouldn't have got her Christian name.
Carol
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: eadaoin on Friday 09 October 15 10:31 BST (UK)
That's a great site, thank you Roger - confirms most of the transcriptions I have made. And transcribed more than 10 years ago -two of those flat stones have deteriorated quite a bit since.

I can see where some of ABIGAIL came from - I get --AIGAUL but no AB at the beginning.
 I think I'll stick with MARGARET but maybe I'll mention that site in my transcription. And this makes HEYDEN more likely than HENDEN.
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: despair on Friday 09 October 15 11:32 BST (UK)
I wonder if the transcription has anglicised her name.Is Abaigeal or similar the equivalent?

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: Trishanne on Friday 09 October 15 11:55 BST (UK)
We were all convinced it was Margaret, but I think I can see Abigail now but it's not clear and I would never have guessed it.
I did think the spelling of Margaret was different, but I know some names were spelt differently all those years ago.
Pat
Title: Re: Name on headstone
Post by: eadaoin on Friday 09 October 15 12:40 BST (UK)
I wonder if the transcription has anglicised her name.Is Abaigeal or similar the equivalent?

Woulfe gives ABAIGEAL as the Irish of ABIGAIL. (but I just can't see an AB at the start!)