RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Finley 1 on Wednesday 30 September 15 09:48 BST (UK)
-
I am deep into my Patricks - (maybe you are all aware - sorry ) and last night I was, angry and upset and then ok and then angry again - I woke up this morning - and wondered why what I had found bothered me so much..
To explain a little but not all cos its something I am not proud !!!
Last night - I was 'working' a 4th cousin twice removed :) :) :) I know a long way distant...
and found he was born in 1893.
So looking for further info, found his marriage and then ---- his Army Record, circa 1916 - and was surprised to see how quickly he was discharged!
His 'trade' was in the theatre - basically a musical hall act.
I know who his parents were and yes his Mom was a Patrick but his dad was foreign...
He !!!!!! decided - on call up - to change his Nationality - and eventually after much --- Hoo --- Haa --- it was accepted that both his Parents were Foreign etc etc etc, - which Unless his mother changed to accept her husbands nationality - does not seem to be true..
Its so long ago and so distant that it shouldn't bother me...
I have found snippets in the paper of his shows and the problem regarding all this..
needless to say I am 'narked' (that's an old word, that came into my head just at that moment.)
Don't like to drop his name all over the net... there are clever enough people on here to find him, and or I can pm you with further details.....
NOT ASHAMED, understand - he was worried about joining up... but darned Angry - he preferred to prance about on the stage, than go and fight for HIS country. I lost so many relatives in that war as did so many on here, I feel he was very very naughty to say the least...
oh dear... get over it :o :o :o :o :-\ :-\ :-\ (telling myself)
xin
-
Xin - don't worry about him.
As anyone reading my past posts will know, my paternal grandfather was discharged from the army (pre 1914) to an asylum, apparently because he was a danger to himself and the other soldiers, yet within 6 weeks he was discharged and within a year married to my gran. He, too, was a musician and didn't fight during WW1, even though both his brothers did and his youngest brother was killed in 1917. My father said he wasn't a pleasant man, with a rip roaring temper towards his family - probably charming when on stage ::) he even told his family he was an orphan, despite having 3 sisters and 2 brothers - which I only found out about when researching his family.
I just think some people are not cut out to be soldiers and I remember his two brave brothers instead, especially his younger brother on 11 November.
-
Well, it's a long time ago now - and who knows what decisions we'd actually make if we were suddenly called up to step in front of actual real enemies and real bullets.
I know I'd be petrified and if I could find some little loophole I'd use it. Growing up in the 60s I worried about being called up .... and I think my modus operandi would've been to collapse and sob, uncontrollably, forever...... I'd be deemed mad and sent packing.
Fear does strange things to us all.
There are many reasons not to fight, not necessarily to do with fear, or cowardice, or being lazy - sometimes, in our lives, there are people we are supporting/looking after etc who we feel wouldn't be able to live/cope without us. So they're saving lives at home.
For some it's hard not to judge, with today's values and living standards being our "norm", but they were different times, with different hardships and really tough choices to be made.
Of course ... he could simply have been utterly, utterly terrified - and therefore would've been a danger to any comrades when in a life-threatening situation. Nobody wants/needs a scaredy cat in their team, they can cost lives too.
-
For many years (can't find when it changed, yet!) on marriage a woman assumed the nationality of her husband. And children assumed the nationality of their parents.
So he was perfectly correct! ;D
EDIT: The Convention on the Nationality of Married Women, passed by UN in 1957, entered into force in 1958.
Currently ratified by 74 states.
The 1914 British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914 stated:
British subject status was normally lost by:
in the case of a woman, upon marriage to a foreign man. Prior to 1933, British subject status was lost even if the woman did not acquire her husband's nationality.
-
For many years (can't find when it changed, yet!) on marriage a woman assumed the nationality of her husband. And children assumed the nationality of their parents.
So he was perfectly correct! ;D
That sounds a good reason.
Perhaps also 'prancing about on a stage' helped others - a distraction.
If this was an'untruth', it's only one you have found Xin. There could be others from other relatives which might make you feel even more narked but they managed to cover them up!
Sometimes, we hear unpleasant stories which have been passed on about our ancestors but we weren't there and and we know we are very nice people- so it's not hereditary ;D
-
Yes, years ago a woman automatically took her husband's nationality upon marriage. My great-aunt (born in America) became a Turkish citizen when she married an Armenian refugee- without even leaving the state where she was born! A few years later she became a U.S. citizen again when he became one.
-
I would just like to tell you about my father's first cousin. He joined up in 1898 and was in trouble right from the start; missing from parade repeatedly and found drunk in the nearby town. Became violent when taken back to barracks. Went on to take part in the relief of Ladysmith and won the Queens South Africal medal, and they didn't hand those out like smarties. So he wasn't a coward. Served 5 years on a distant outpost in India and continued with bad behaviour; found in antive womens brothel etc. Come the war he was sent to France and took part in one of the first battles. 1915 he deserted in France and forfeited medals.
I like to think that he was a brave man, but when he experienced the utter stupidity of trench warefare, he decided he wanted no part of it. Please don't think I am disparaging those men who continued to fight in WWI, even though it must have seemed like madness to them.
-
Thank you 'ALL' on reflection, then I can understand a little more :) just the immediate - reaction to the discovery. And yes there are definite other little fibs amongst this 'crew' over the years.
This felt worse at first read it seemed to me a cowards get out clause was found and used..
I am a judgemental old so and so... (take after my Pops :) :) ) anyhow appreciate remarks and understanding - thank you
its a strange one..
xin ;)
-
It looks like we've all got one somewhere in our past.
Mine would be my granddad's cousin,
Discharged after a short spell in the army (WW1) because his epileptic fits were so bad, and sometimes violent, he had to be hospitalised and watched 24/7.
His profession before and after his service....chauffeur!
I hope he wore his swb with pride!
-
We have to remember that not everyone will share our moral views on pride, war, patriotism, theatre or prancing. It takes all kinds to make the world go round.
I, for one, wouldn't feel bad about what he did.
-
Xin, finding that document I am not surprised you felt "a bit gutted", but we have to remember that we can never judge the actions as we learn about them, because truly we never know the ancestor's full situation.
What when a young woman had a child out of wedlock? [I was stunned witless, initially, to be handed a bastardy bond!!]
What when a felon was convicted of theft and transported? That shocked me to the core as well.
I know both examples are in a different league to a possible white feather recipient, but both shameful in their way surely?.
How many of us can state with certainty if their ancestors were mad, bad or just not very nice to know?
-
Mowsehowse,
Could it be the case here though, that his nationality was the reason and not that he was a 'possible white feather recipient'?
Or have I misunderstood?
Heywood
-
Mowsehowse,
Could it be the case here though, that his nationality was the reason and not that he was a 'possible white feather recipient'?
Or have I misunderstood? Heywood
No, I also read that, but initially Xin was deeply upset and had a very disturbed night's sleep, so I conjectured she was thinking the worst until futher delving earlier today.
But very possibly I misunderstood. :o
In which case I should add that I meant no dis-respect to anyone.
-
No Mowsehowse
You were totally right, I just could not imagine at first, what my Pops would think, himself having been through 2nd world war - on Aircraft Carriers in Salerno etc...
I started my research for him, and this is his side of the family.. So yes it was remembering the awful scenes with white feathers, in Lawrence of Arabia..
I do feel better now having gone over it now and looked into it a little more..
thanks for your thoughts all of you
addendum, :) :) I have considered the reality of all this a bit more today and I too understand more - he had just got married and there was a young child involved, so maybe they judged him too harshly and we will never know...
It is funny how close -- you can become to these darn dead rellies...
:D ;D ;D ;D
maybe need to take a break at least 24 hours.
xin
-
Hi Xin, one of my cousins was a regimental sargeant major,and saw action ,his brother was also in the ww2 but contrieved to remain in this country safe...... and many nasty remarks were made. Long time after the war my uncle let his sister, my mother know the truth, he was not sitting safe back in the uk but was in fact working for SOE in France. So one does not always know the whole truth. ::)
-
Maybe some people were just pacifists.
I sometimes think we forget how important politicans happily used lives to make their point.
Nothing about war makes me proud.
-
I only know I would do, say & condone practically anything to keep my son away from war.
-
There could be so much more background to this story Xin....somethings we will never understand as things were very different then. Best not to judge too harshly when you don't have all the facts.
Carol
-
yes --- it is easy to judge -- from this distance
thank you all - brilliant 'roots' again, put things into perspective... :)
xin
-
I think it's perfectly understandable that he might try to avoid joining up.
If he was from Switzerland, which was neutral during the war, he may have retained the beliefs of his country, and he may not have felt loyal to Britain. :-\
I wouldn't blame him no matter what his reasons. ;)
-
Just to say
my father was a Conscientious Objector in WWII. He had to argue his case in court, and present character witnesses and justify his position as a pacifist with people who were keen to call him a coward.
He was sent to work on the land, but felt that he was too safe and comfortable whilst everyone in cities particularly were suffering in the bombing, so he requested a change to work in the ARP, and spent the war working very hard as a labourer, and being in as much danger as the rest of the population, if not more, as he had to assist in the demolition of buildings after bombs and so on.
I have always had the greatest respect for him. In some ways it is harder to stand up for what you believe in than go along with what everyone else is doing.
And I am afraid I have no sympathy for the 'white feather brigade' of women in WWI who sent men into war with no concept of what they were sending them to. More to the point, if they felt they should have their country defended, to go and fight themselves.
O tempora, o mores! I appreciate other times, other customs, but even so.
I know this is off your topic a bit, Xin, but I just had to say
-
Just been reading this and I can't find the reference at the moment but my cousin was on the stage during WW1 and during intermissions they would be promoting the cause and encouraging men to join up. I believe he joined under the Derby scheme in mid 1916, he was born in 1881, married with a child at the time.
-
"but contrived to remain in this country safe...... "
My father also had a safe job in WW2. I'm sure he was glad to be assigned as a clerk in the US Army's gas mask supply office in England rather than being sent to the front lines but it wasn't something that he had contrived. Draftees didn't get an opportunity to contrive anything; they did what they were told to do. It was just his luck that he was a college chemistry student when he was drafted and, fortunately, they didn't assign him to work with chemical weapons.
-
Xin said : quote.......
addendum, :) :) I have considered the reality of all this a bit more today and I too understand more - he had just got married and there was a young child involved, so maybe they judged him too harshly and we will never know........
That is exactly what I was trying to suggest. Really we can never be sure we have knowledge of all the circumstances.
Perhaps I should have specified:
Was my "fallen woman" willing or under duress??
Was my convicted felon light fingered or starving, desperately trying to find a way to feed her family.
I fear many of the young men who signed up eagerly to fight in WWl never considered the ramifications, but there will have been some who were realists and saw the hideous truth clearly.
-
I think the conscientious objectors were very brave to stand up for their beliefs and as for the feather givers , who did they think they were ? Did they want the male generation obliterated ?. Too much brainwashing altogether .
-
I have followed him about as far as I can now... And he lived until 1971 - his wife until 1975 and his daughter until 1998...
I haven't followed his daughter - apart from her marriage. So unsure if she had descendants....
So I will leave him now and say 'bless you' for what ever reasons, it was your choice, and we should all be allowed choice in life.
Somewhere out there - (maybe someone even reading this post) there is possibly a close relative and I feel glad now I didn't name him to specifically..
#
Belonging to roots and hearing all your opinions -- has this very day - given me a greater understanding... I thank you all xxx ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
xin