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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: cire on Tuesday 29 September 15 21:19 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for some information on Marcella Mary Garrett, who married Charles George Wykes in 1889 in Traralgon(I think!!!), particularly her parents names and date and place of birth.
I haven't managed to find her on the Victoria B M D web site.
Eric
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Marriage
WYKES Charles George Born Huntingdonshire
GARRETT Marcella Mary Born Sale
1889 Reg#1339
Death
WYKES Marcella Mary
Father Joseph GARRETT Mother Jane MURTER
At Sale 84 years 1953 Reg#17333
Her age at death indicates a birth c1869. Her parents' marriage in 1872 in Victoria
Marriage
GARRETT Joseph Born Hadley on Thames
MURTHA Jane Born Kildare
1872 Reg#4440
There are six births to this couple registered at Cowwarr - Thomas 1873, Ellen 1875, William 1877, Eliza 1883, Edward Thomas 1887 and James 1890. However not all births appear to have been registered as -
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article67414203
The Maffra Spectator 17 Sep 1900
MARRIAGE.
McGRATH-GARRETT. - On the 12th September, at the Catholic Church, Heyfield, by the Rev. Father Hoyne, Thomas F., eldest son of P. McGrath, of Boisdale, to Mary J., third daughter of the late Joseph Garrett, of Cowwarr.
Cando
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The death of Jane GARRETT
GARRETT Jane
Father MURTAGH
Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
Age 62
Year 1913
Place Hfield
Reg. Number 2044
Sue
ADDING
Not very informative Death Notice for above.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10760457
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Death of her father
GARRETT Joseph
Father Joseph Mother Sophia WELCH
At Conwarr 78 years 1899 Reg#5373
Death of her mother
GARRETT Jane
Father Murtagh Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
At Highfield 1913 62 years Reg#2044
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10760457
The Argus 16 Jan 1913
GARRETT. On the 8th January, 1913, Jane Garrett, of Cowwarr, widow of the late Joseph Garrett, aged 62 years.
Both Jane and Joseph have digitised probate files on PROV. I suggest you download them. Perhaps they hold helpful information.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Cheers :)
Cando
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An inquiry into Joseph GARRETT's death
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59434312
regards
Ros
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There are six births to this couple registered at Cowwarr - Thomas 1873, Ellen 1875, William 1877, Eliza 1883, Edward Stephen 1887 and James 1890. However not all births appear to have been registered .....
Two more as GARRET...... Joseph in 1879 and Mary in 1881.
And James Gregory GARRATT in 1885?? Death index has Gregory d. 1960.
Essie
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Thanks Essie....I must admit it was a quick search :-[ However no Marcella Mary and Mary J was the third dau her elder sisters being Ellen 1875 and Eliza 1883. Puzzling.
Cando
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A number of online public trees and Marcella Mary's birth ranging from 1869 to 1874. No certificates attached however as the date of the marriage is included on some trees there is a possibility that one of the researchers had dipped in his/her pockets and bothered to purchase the marriage certificate which would have Marcella's age detailed. If Marcella was born shortly before or after Joseph and Jane's marriage they haven't registered her birth. If you want to ensure your own research is accurate then I suggest you purchase the marriage certificate. I am constantly amazed how so many people don't bother to purchase certificates and do their research from the indexes. Off the soap box now :-X :-X.
Cando
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WOW!!!
Thank you so much for all that information. My daughter and son in law are over from Australia and we are trying to find out more about that part of his family history. What you gave me should lead us back even further. I'm almost tempted to ask if anyone knows what she had for breakfast on 28 June 1884!!!!!!!!!!!
With regard to getting certificates -- If you go back a generation in my family, a marriage certificate gives the bridegroom's father's name --- except that there was no such person!!!!!!!
Many thanks to you all again
Eric
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With regard to getting certificates -- If you go back a generation in my family, a marriage certificate gives the bridegroom's father's name --- except that there was no such person!!!!!!!
The information on any bdm certificate is only as accurate as the knowledge of the informant. Of course it is your choice whether or not to purchase an online certificate to validate the research. Surely there was other identify information on your marriage certificate ie if it was an Australian Certificate.
Information on Victorian Marriage Certificates
Date and place of marriage;
name and surnames;
conjugal condition, whether bachelor or spinster, widow or widower,
stating date of decease of former wife or husband;
children by each former marriage;
birthplace;
occupation;
age;
residence (present and usual);
parent's names of each party (including mother's maiden name) and occupation of father;
signatures of the parties and witnesses;
signature of Minister. Prior to 1963 the date of termination of previous marriages of the parties is also shown.
The children born to Joseph and Jane are - [I missed a few due to spelling variations of the surname...thanks Essie :)] And note that Mary J was the third dau....so it would appear that Marcella was an elder sister. If you purchase any of the following birth certificates it will show the names of the previous children of the marriage and their ages. Also note the usual 2 year gap between most of the births. I think Marcella was born either 1871 or 1872 and her age at death is incorrect. Probably correct on that marriage cert as she would have needed parental consent to marry in 1889 even if born c1869.
Births
GARRETT Thomas
Father Joseph Mother Jane MURTHA
At Cowwarr 1873 Reg#15862 Died Cheltenham 1953 79 years Reg#4072
GARRETT Ellen Dau# 2
Father Joseph Mother Jane MURTHA
At Cowwarr 1875 Reg#1659
GARRETT William
Father Joseph Mother Jane MURTHA
At Cowwarr 1877 Reg#8152 Died Hotham 1931 54 years Reg#9839
GARRET Joseph
Father Joseph Mother Jane MURTHA
At Cowwarr 1879 Reg#15279
GARRET Mary Dau#3 according to the marriage notice in 1900.
Father Joseph Mother Jane MARTHA
At Cowwarr 1881 Reg#8557 Died as Mary McGRATH at Bentleigh 1962 81 years Reg#9688
GARRETT Eliza
Father Joseph Mother Jane MARTHA
At Cowwarr 1883 Reg#8423 Died as Eliza McGRATH at Fitzroy 1963 80 years Reg#22750
No birth registration
GARRETT Gregory born c1885. Died 1960 at Werribee aged 75 years. Reg#26435
Parents Joseph GARRETT and Jane MURTAGH.
GARRETT Edward Stephen
Father Joseph Mother Jane MURTHA
At Cowwarr 1887 Reg#27607 Died at Sale 1946 58 years Reg#17366
GARRETT James
Father Joseph Mother Jane MURTHA
At Cowwarr 1890 Reg#31620 Died 1970 Bunyip 79 years Reg#20827
I suggested you view Joseph's and Jane's probate file available online but I have just been advised by the Public Records of Victoria that the digitised wills will probably not be available again until next week. It is a public holiday in Victoria tomorrow however their techs are working on the problem now.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59436344
Administrators of Joseph's estate selling machinery and stock.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article67395565
Application for probate by the executors of Jane's Will.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article71544491 - ?too much Christmas cheer :P
Traralgon Record and Morwell, Mirboo,Toongabbie, Heyfield,Tyers and Callignee Advertiser 25 Jan 1884
TOONGABBIE POLICE COURT.
At Toongabbie Police Court on Tuesday, before a bench of magistrates, Joseph Garrett was fined 10s for insulting behaviour at Cower on last Christmas Day.
Either Joseph's or Jane's death certificate will list all the chn of the marriage both living and deceased at the times of their respective deaths.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi Cando
I took your advice!!
I have downloaded the image for Charles George Wykes and Marcella Mary Garrett's marriage. The marriage was on Jan 1 1889 in the Presbyterian Church in Traralgon. Marcella's age is given as 18 and her father had given written consent. This would put her birth in 1871. The groom was 42. The venue, a little surprising, as I understand she and the Garretts were devout catholics.
With regard to the marriage cert from my extended family, I know that the groom was very sensitive about being illegitimate and and "claimed" a father (deceased) on the certificate.
Eric
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Hi Eric :)
The value of a certificate ;D
Photos of Charles and Marcella's headstones at Gormandale Cemetery are available on request
http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?grave=398065&scrwidth=300
http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?grave=398064&scrwidth=300
Cheers
Cando
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iI sometimes think that our ancestors knew that we would be looking for them in a 100years or so and took steps make life difficult for us!!--- but I suppose the difficult search is where the fun is.
I said that I had purchased the image of Joseph Garrett and Jane Murtha's marriage certificate. It says that Joseph was born in Hadley on Thames Oxfordshire ( can't find such a place---- I think it is probably Henley on Thames. His parents are given as Joseph Garrett and Elizabeth ---"maiden name unknown". So far I have not been able to find the couple.
I haven't bought Joseph's death certificate but the information you gave me earlier gives his parents as Joseph Garrett and Sophia Welch!!!!!! I haven't been able to find them either --- so far!!!!
I'll keep looking
Eric
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Eric just one comment.....information on death certificates is only as accurate as the knowledge of the informant.
What was Joseph's father's occupation on the marriage certificate?
Cando
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Hi Cando
Joseph's father was a labourer, presumably back in England.
Lots of puzzles with Joseph!!!!! I sorted the Welch surname on his death cert. It was his mother in law's maiden name which someone had remembered.
I couldn't see Joseph's entry into Australia on the Victoria immigration lists and don't know if he came on his own or part of a family group. I don't see him in the 1841 or 1851 censuses living with his parents. There is one family of Joseph and Elizabeth with son Joseph living not far from Henley on Thames but in the adjacent county. However the group is still together in 1851 and can be traced through the next few censuses. There is also a Joseph and Elizabeth (nee Pishill or Bissell) living 3 or 4 miles from Henley on Thames. They are Catholics, as was Marcella, but they don't have a son Joseph with them, baptised around 1835 or in 1841 or 1851 censuses.
Intriguing!!!!!!
best wishes
Eric
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Death of her father
GARRETT Joseph
Father Joseph Mother Sophia WELCH
At Conwarr 78 years 1899 Reg#5373
Cheers :)
Cando
I don't see him in the 1841 or 1851 censuses living with his parents..... but they don't have a son Joseph with them, baptised around 1835 or in 1841 or 1851 censuses.
best wishes
Eric
Wasn't Joseph born c1821? How old did he say he was when he married?
Debra :)
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Hi Debra
Thanks for the reply,
On his marriage certificate to Jane Murtha, Joseph's age is given as 33 (8th Oct. 1872)
I have enlarged the image I have and see that the age is 33 and not 38 as I had read before, which puts his birth in 1839!!!!!! Like the name of his mother on the marriage and death certificates, I suppose that on the marriage cert is more likely to be correct. (or did he knock a few years off his age to reduce the age gap with his wife!!!!)
I have now found a Jos Garrett arriving in Melbourne in Dec1856 aboard the Donald McKay, which could be him!!!!
best wishes
Eric
Just had another look at the newspaper report into the circumstances of his death and that says he was 78!!!!!
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I have now found a Jos Garrett arriving in Melbourne in Dec1856 aboard the Donald McKay, which could be him!!!!
best wishes
Eric
A couple of details about the man on the "Donald McKay"
GARRETT, Joseph
Aged 23
Labourer
English
Scheduled to land Melbourne.
He was a single man.
The ship departed 4th October 1856 from Liverpool
Sue
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Hi All,
I am the great grand son of Joseph and Jane, Grandson of Joseph. I have a long standing interest in this family tree and knowledge of most of what has been discussed here so far. I am so pleased to read of others with the same interest.
My father and his sister are still alive with some recollection of the family. I am keen to share and learn more practically so pre Australian arrival history.
A news paper article had Joseph serve in the Crimean war, On a birth certificate he signed with an X so I assume he was un able to write.
Re Marcella's birth date is a question
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Hi David
Welcome to RootsChat. I’m sure you will find a lot of help on this site.
Marcella Garrett is part of my Australian son-in-law’s family, and I have been looking at parts of his family here in Great Britain before they emigrated.
(I haven’t found any so far that were sent!!!!)
I am having problems with your great grandfather!!!!!! There seems to be some confusion in various sources about his age/date of birth and Christian name. I thought at one time I had lost a generation.!! !
To keep this short at the moment. Did he use both names Joseph and Job?
From what I have found it is possible that he was Job in England and Joseph in Australia!!!
If he is the same person I have quite a bit on the family in England and can go back another 2 generations.
I would be very happy to collaborate with you on this family.
Eric
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Hi Eric, many thanks for your reply. Not a lot of history to go on here other than what I have read from news paper articles but back in the late 18th century in a small country town there was little that made the papers. To my knowledge Joseph hadn't gone by the name of Job but anything about him I have seen was only on official type stuff so not even the name Joe was used.
I haven't been able to establish when he came to Australia but have seen a birth certificate where its listed his place of birth and some parents details as well as Janes detail. Did see the Donald
Mc Kay somewhere too. As for Jane she possibly came here either with or to with at least one sister Eliza who married a William Watts in 1861. The name Murtha Murther or Murtagh may have been mixed.
Sounds like you have a good grasp of much of what I know already. I will round up some details to share. David
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Did anyone make any more progress on this topic ?
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Hi David,
I haven't done much more on the Garrett family recently. I spent a lot of time trying to find more about the Murtha family in Ireland bui have it was not able to make much progress. A lot of Irish records were destroyed in a fire in the 1920s and my knowledge of Irish geography is minimal. I did look at the Gormandale grave photos only last week.
I'm reasonably certain that the Job Garrett I have in England is the same as the Joseph Garrett who came out to Australia. I have seen at least 2 cases where there is the Job/Joseph name.
Eric
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Apologies for the delay in posting on here. I had difficulties logging back in hence the different user name.
Since my last post I have had a Ancestor DNA test which has confirmed that the Joseph Job Garrett mentioned above is the correct one being Marcella's father and my Great Grand father. I believe he was born in 11 Oct 1831 to Joseph Garrett and Elizabeth Bissell at Pishill Oxfordshire and Baptized at the Stoner Catholic church where it seems all there children were.
Joseph [Job] Garrett wasn't referred to Job in Australia
There is variation in ages recorded at Marriage, Death and Births of his children and seems most likely he wanted to appear younger than he was. He came to Australia in 1856
RE Marcella
I believe she was born in 1871 before Joseph and Jane were married in 1872 Joseph aged 41 and Jane aged 22 despite the marriage certificate recording ages of 33 and 23. Interesting to see Jane signed with her signature but Joseph with an X
I have a copy of her brother Jame's birth certificates 1890 and noted that only 8 siblings are mentioned. James was the last child born with the ages of the siblings aldso recorded but no mention of Marcella who would have been the first born.
This could be that they didn't want a legitimate child to appear on the record or potentially Marcella wasn't Joseph's child.
More information leads to more question but thats why we are here.