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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Tam the Dooter on Wednesday 23 September 15 11:38 BST (UK)
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I am researching the family history of Rachael Poulton who lived at 157 Church Road, Canonbury, Islington. She was what might best be termed the kept woman of George Ovenden with whom she had 6 children between 1865 and 1875. In December 1875 she (and I assume George Ovenden) used the name Angerstein for the baptism of two children George Henry Edward born in September 1870 and Lillian Gertrude born in August 1875. From then on she used the name Angerstein for all but her first child, although their births were registered as Poulton. From the mid 1880s she called herself Angerstein and indeed her death was registered as that surname. Can anyone help please with shedding light on whether there was a legitimate use of the name Angerstein and anything further to her story.
Thanks
Tam the Dooter
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Hi Tam
Did you see the marriage of Georgina Rachel E Poulton to George Henry Angerstein in Q3, 1887, Islington, 1b, 451? Could this be the same Georgina Rachel E Poulton, eldest daughter of Rachel Poulton, born in 1866 - who is getting married aged 21 in 1887? Why the use of the Angerstein name before and then afterwards is intriguing.
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George Henry E ANGERSTEIN marries Charlotte Elizabeth ARNOLD,though.
Maureen
EDIT: Just realised that George is Rachael's son. :)
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And Georgina Rachel Eleanor Poulton marries Henry Whittaker
She leaves a blank for father.
However, the George Henry Edward Angerstein, (marrying Charlotte Arnold) gives George Angerstein, surgeon(sorry, surveyor!), as father.
Address for George and Georgina both the same.
Witnesses at the Georgina Poulton to Whittaker are George Ovenden, C J Whitaker and C M Angerstein
Witnesses at the George Angerstrein to Charlotte Arnold marriage are : William Arnold and Florence Angerstein
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I think the occupation for the father George is "surveyor" rather than "surgeon"?? (I read it as "sawyer" first time around. ::) ).
I wonder what George OVENDEN's background is? Can't really spot him.
Maureen
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Sorry, Maureen. I have no idea why I typed surgeon. It is definitley surveyor! I read it as surveyor, but brain somehow changed it to surgeon when I typed it up!!!!!! Senior moment ;)
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;D ;D
Well,you were a lot closer than I was!
Maureen
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1881 shows Rachael Poulton as "married", 37 b Epping, sister of Mary Poulton, unmar 39 b Epping.
Their parents appear likely to be William Poulton & Lydia Taylor, on the same page of marriages Jun qtr 1840 Epping.
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Tam, this is the family of my cousin, I will send her the link and she will probably get in touch.
A Link to one of her posts
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,200167.0.html
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Thanks to all who have replied. Your help is much appreciated. You can see why this is a fascinating history where getting to the bottom of Rachael Poulton's history is a challenge. I didn't mention it but when Georgina was baptised, Rachael and George Ovenden, the probable father of them all pretended to be a married couple from Exeter.
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I think that probably George Angerstein was a new man on the scene, and the family took on his name.
Otherwise, why does Georgina not name a father on her marriage? (If George Angersrtein, who is still around, was her father under a new name, then surely she would have named George with one of his surnames, as her father?)
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Thanks to all who have replied. Your help is much appreciated. You can see why this is a fascinating history where getting to the bottom of Rachael Poulton's history is a challenge. I didn't mention it but when Georgina was baptised, Rachael and George Ovenden, the probable father of them all pretended to be a married couple from Exeter.
They didn't claim to be married - Georgina Rachel Eleanor born 21.09.1865 was baptised at St Peter Islington on 17.12.1865 as the daughter of George Ovenden (surveyor) and Rachel Poulton. Abode (as you say) was recorded as Exeter, Devon.
Georgina's birth was registered (late, if the Sep 1865 birthdate is right) in Mar qtr 1866 Islington. it is indexed under both the Ovenden and Poulton surnames, so the parents did not present themselves as married.
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I think that probably George Angerstein was a new man on the scene, and the family took on his name.
Otherwise, why does Georgina not name a father on her marriage? (If George Angersrtein, who is still around, was her father under a new name, then surely she would have named George with one of his surnames, as her father?)
I see that George Ovenden witnessed Georgina's marriage. Interestingly the stated occupations of George Ovenden and George Angerstein (land surveyor/surveyor) are the same where they appear in the baptism and marriage records for the children. So was Angerstein an alias of George O?
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Even stranger if the George Overden, the witness, is actually her father! Especially as within a week brother George marries and states George Angerstein is his father . . . . marrying from same address, at same church.
But I had missed the fact that they are both surveyors!
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To avm - you're right I glossed the two names although Georgina was registered as Ovenden and not Poulton.
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To avm - you're right I glossed the two names although Georgina was registered as Ovenden and not Poulton.
You will see from FreeBMD that her birth registration is indexed under both Ovenden and Poulton, indicating that the parents did not present themselves as married (hence the indexing under both the mother's surname and the father's surname).
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The 1871 census shows a George Ovenden, surveyor (40 b Middlesex) with wife Anna and several children at 79 Guilford St, St Pancras: RG10/215/89/30.
Perhaps you already know about George?
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I think that probably George Angerstein was a new man on the scene, and the family took on his name.
Otherwise, why does Georgina not name a father on her marriage? (If George Angersrtein, who is still around, was her father under a new name, then surely she would have named George with one of his surnames, as her father?)
I see that George Ovenden witnessed Georgina's marriage. Interestingly the stated occupations of George Ovenden and George Angerstein (land surveyor/surveyor) are the same where they appear in the baptism and marriage records for the children. So was Angerstein an alias of George O?
That's the root of what I am trying to get clear. The name Angerstein (as far as I can tell) first appears at the baptisms of George Henry and Lillian in December 1875 when George and Rachael Angerstein are recorded as the parents. From there all the children but Georgina take the name of Angerstein although in 1932 Lillian Reeves as she became had the marriage record corrected from Angerstein to Poulton because I suspect she found that her birth certificate did not match the name she was married in.
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This is probably George Ovenden.
With his wife and family - so mot free to marry Rachael. Presumably kept her as a mistress, either leadinf a double life, or with his wifes knowledge
1871
79 Guilford Street, St Pancras
George Ovenden 40 surveyor bn Middlesex
Anna M 40 wife bn Bedford
George C 19 bn Hackney
William 16 bn Kensington
Henry 14 bn Kensington
Edward 13 bn Holborn
Charles 11 bn Paddington
MAry Swannell? 24 sister in law annuitant bn Bedford
Charlotte Reeling general servant
So the George Ovenden, witnessing the marriage, could be Georginas half brother, if the two families were in contact?
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The 1871 census shows a George Ovenden, surveyor (40 b Middlesex) with wife Anna and several children at 79 Guilford St, St Pancras: RG10/215/89/30.
Perhaps you already know about George?
I do and as indicated he seems to have been the father of all Rachael's children and probably financially supported them. He clearly appeared at their weddings and baptisms. There is a further thread to follow to wonder why after the death of his wife in 1883, he and Rachael did not marry. I'd suspect class at the root of it.
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He clearly appeared at their weddings and baptisms.
The baptism registers don't tell you who was present - they name the parent(s) but that does not tell you that any named parent was present or even necessarily alive at the time of baptism.
Marriage registers don't tell you who was present other than the witnesses (usually 2, sometimes more). George Ovenden was present as a witness at Georgina's marriage but did he witness other marriages that you know of? Again, the naming of a father at a marriage is not evidence that he was present or even necessarily alive.
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Hi, Tam. I'm Larkspur's cousin. Rachael is my GGGrandmother via her son George Henry Edward. His eldest daughter Gertrude Mary was my paternal grandmother. I have been researching Rachael for many years and have never found any evidence for a marriage or even any to show where the name 'Angerstein' came from. There is no known connection with John Julius Angerstein. George Ovenden of course was married to someone else at the time of his relationship with Rachael. There is no doubt that George Ovenden was the father of Rachael's children as his name is on their birth certificates meaning that he would have had to go with her to register the births.
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He clearly appeared at their weddings and baptisms.
Baptism registers don't tell you who was present - they name the parent(s) but that does not tell you that any named parent was present or even necessarily alive at the time of baptism.
Marriage registers don't tell you who was present other than the witnesses (usually 2, sometimes more). George Ovenden was present as a witness at Georgina's marriage but did he witness other marriages that you know of? Again, the naming of a father at a marriage is not evidence that he was present or even necessarily alive.
Thanks for the clarification - I had always assumed (wrongly) that unless the person was labelled as deceased they were present.
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Anna dies 1883, but failing to find them in 1881 at the mo.
When did George die? Was he still an Ovenden? Or did he use Angerstein?
Did he leave a Will? If so did he name Rachel or any of the children he had (we think) with her?
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George Ovenden was present as a witness at Georgina's marriage
And yet she does not name him as father - that is still bugging me. It does not make sense.
Especially as the following week brother George marries, from same address, at sawe church, and names George Angerstein as father.
That is why I threw in the possibility that the witness may be her half brother rather than her alleged father.
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Hi
Have you checked the wedding cert on Anc* of Florence Emily ANGERSTEIN and Joseph REEVES in 1890 ?
The vicar has the surname Angerstein crossed out and has written at the bottom " should read Florence Emily Poulton". There is something else written but I am having difficulty reading it
George Ovenden is a witness
claire
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George died in 1898 and was registered by his daughter, Anna.
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Hi, Tam. I'm Larkspur's cousin. Rachael is my GGGrandmother via her son George Henry Edward. His eldest daughter Gertrude Mary was my paternal grandmother. I have been researching Rachael for many years and have never found any evidence for a marriage or even any to show where the name 'Angerstein' came from. There is no known connection with John Julius Angerstein. George Ovenden of course was married to someone else at the time of his relationship with Rachael.
rumpuscat. Thanks for the reply. Rachael was my first cousin three times removed via the Poultons. I am reaching the conclusion that there was no family connection with the Angersteins except the use of the name but I am intrigued as to why that name was picked by Rachael and i assume George Ovenden; it's probably something we can never know of course.
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George Ovenden was present as a witness at Georgina's marriage
And yet she does not name him as father - that is still bugging me. It does not make sense.
Especially as the following week brother George marries, from same address, at sawe church, and names George Angerstein as father.
That is why I threw in the possibility that the witness may be her half brother rather than her alleged father.
Perhaps she was embarrassed re his surname being Ovenden, different from the one she was using, and rather than facing awkward questions it was easier not to name a father?
Yes George did have a son (George Clare Ovenden) who was still alive in 1887 (died 1888) so a possibility as you say.
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Hi
Have you checked the wedding cert on Anc* of Florence Emily ANGERSTEIN and Joseph REEVES in 1890 ?
The vicar has the surname Angerstein crossed out and has written at the bottom " should read Florence Emily Poulton". There is something else written but I am having difficulty reading it
George Ovenden is a witness
I was also looking at that marriage too and this is what I had typed out
Father named as George Angerstein Agent witnesses George Overden & C Angerstein
The C Augerstein could be Contance whose on the 1881 census with Florence, Henry, Henrietta & Selina Augersten And Mary, Rachael & Georgina Poulton.
Her surname Angerstein has been crossed out and a note added at the bottom of m/c
Angerstein should read POULTON
(x) F E Angerstein should read Florence Emily Poulton
Con? By authority from Somerset House on 6th Jan. 1932 by W(???) vicar in the presence of witnesses Joseph & Florence Emily Reeves.
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Claire t. It reads something like Somerset House have agreed the change. Its only a guess but it coincides with Lillian Reeves reaching 65 and if she needed her birth certificate for some reason - perhaps connected with the pension, the discrepancy in surnames would become apparent.
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1891 This could be George
1891
37 Myddleton Street, Clerkenwell
George Ovenden 61 widower land agent bn Hackney
Annie Anshaw? 36 widow dtr Childrens outfitter bn Hackney
And he dies in 1898
No Will - bother!
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I think the Ovendens had lost all their money and property by then.
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BAptism
West Hackney
18 April 1830
George Ovenden, parents George and JAne , Rosebery Place Dalston, builder
1841
Roseberry Cottage, HAckney
George Ovenden 50 architect N
Jane 41 Y
Harriet 20 Y
George 12 Y
Philip 8 Y
William 5 Y
Christopher 4 Y
Elizabeth 77 N
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Marriage
18 Dec 1828
Hackney
George Ovenden widower to Jane Clare spinster
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Everyone seems to have lost interest since I joined in. Why is that?
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Hi there rumpuscat, having started the hare running, I did get a bit bemused by the volume of replies. I think the difficulty is that there is no clear view of how and why Rachael Poulton became Rachael Angerstein. Her death certificate records her as Rachael Angerstein, widow of George Angerstein, Architect but I can't trace any record of a marriage and as the death was reported by her son George Angerstein, it seems plausible that he was only able to report what she had told him. It may also be that under the dictates of respectability, she wished to be known as a widow.
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Hi, Tam. I suspect that the Angerstein thing was cooked up between Rachael and George Ovenden to cover the fact that her children were illegitimate. George, being married, would not wish her to use his name so they invented one - or picked a name that might have been talked about at the time. It seems that their eldest child, Georgina, was probably too old to be taken in by this deception so stuck with Poulton. I also think (without a shred of proof) that George ended the relationship soon after the birth of Lilian Gertrude in 1875. His wife Anna Maria died in 1883 so she might have been ailing and he suffered a fit of conscience. The evidence (if that's not too strong a term) is that Rachael was obviously fertile yet had no more children after 1875 despite being only in her early 30s. The family appear to have known no details although my grandmother Gertrude Mary (Rachael's eldest grandchild) used to say that her father had changed his name to Angerstein, although she didn't know what it had been before. She also said she was brought up by her aunties. We know from the census that she lived with Rachael and Constance so perhaps my Granny didn't realise that Rachael was her granny? Alas, we'll never know.
May I ask why you are interested in Rachael?
Sorry, I've just seen your earlier post. In that case we are related but no idea what cousinry that is!
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Hi rumpuscat. I think you've seen that my relationship to Rachael Poulton is distant - from Ancestry we're first cousins three times removed via a shared twice or three times great grandfather. It was simply curiosity and intrigue that got me pursuing it. There is a somewhat similar relationship on father's side where my great great grandfather was married but his wife disappeared without any obvious trace and he took up with someone else only to have their children baptised in his formal wife's name. He eventually married the mother of most of his children which leads me to suspect that his wife may have either run off with someone else or had suffered some form of chronic illness - maybe mental which had caused her to be locked away.
On Rachael I can only conclude that you're right - although George Ovenden did appear as a witness at Georgina's marriage in 1888 and I wonder whether he continued to support Rachael and her family as she seems to have had no other means. No occupation is ever shown in the censuses. My only reservation is that I can't quite get my head round the choice of Angerstein as the name to hide behind. I would have thought it so unusual as to defeat the object of the exercise but I can't think of any other explanation.
Anyway, many thanks for your time and help.
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It never ceases to amaze me what the Victorians got up to, and we are slways old they were so prim and proper! One of my husband's rellies, when his wife died, married her sister which was illegal at that time. Seemed to get away with it though, and had children by both of them.
Back to the Ovendens. When George Robert, the father of our George Ovenden died he left about 30 houses which he divvied up between his sons and grandchildren in his will. The will was signed at Coopersale House, the home of the Archer Houblon family at Coopersale Common near Epping. I've no idea why he was there but the Angersteins were also considerable landowners in East Anglia and they may have had some connection with the Archer Houblons (which I am still seeking). Could it be that when George junior was seeking a name for Rachael and his children he alighted on a name he had heard recently? I think the answer is something like that. He does seem to have gone on supporting his second family as long as he lived although the family wealth was long gone. There is a story in the Ovenden family that George's younger brother caused some sort of a scandal and the family wealth was used to hush it up. Christopher (the brother) was sent to Australia - by the family, not transported. When their mother Jane died in 1888 her estate was £36.4s.9d divided between her sons George and Philip. (Philip was the brother who probably unintentionally brought Rachael to George's notice as he had employed her as a nursemaid when he lived at Coopersale.)
Another little mystery is that although George Robert Ovenden was variously described as builder, surveyor and architect and as gentleman on his death certificate, on Jane's death certificate she is described as 'widow of George Ovenden, Clerk in East India Company's service.' Good grief, where did that come from?
I hope you have found this interesting. :)
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H rumpuscat, well I've just got George Henry Edwards's birth certificate. He was born on 8 September 1870 at 8 Providence Place, Yarmouth to Rachel Poulton and George Ovenden whose occupation is down as House Proprietor. He was registered on 11 October 1870 and I'm afraid that this does rather knock down any remaining thoughts of an Angerstein father. I think that your conclusion that Angerstein was a name that George and Rachael used for convenience is as near as we'll ever get.
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Hi Tam, pity we didn't catch up earlier - I could have saved you £9.25! Another little mystery - why was GHE born in Great Yarmouth? I suppose Rachael must have been travelling with George and the Providence Place house was one of George's properties. Providence Place was demolished in the 1950s so there is no lead there. I have respect for George for having his name recorded on Rachael's children's birth certificates. He's even on Georgina's, so she didn't have a different father from the "Angersteins."
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Hi there rumpuscat. Thanks for the offer but it's not a bad thing to have the document about George Ovenden cum Poulton as this does unequivocably settle his parentage leaving the birth in Yarmouth to be a mystery. it did cross my mind to wonder whether George Ovenden knew he was on the birth certificate as on her track record, Rachael seems to have been fly enough to pull a fast one but as he seems to have supported the family, this is probably fantasy. There's the makings of a novel here if you think about it.
Regards
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Hi Tam
I think at that time the father had to go with the mother to register the child if the parents were not married. I know this changed at some point though I'm not sure when. I think this might have been why Georgina's registration was delayed. I don't see what Rachael had to gain by lying on the birth certificates. It seems to me that George was responsible enough to claim parentage. It's just one more mystery. I've often thought about the story's novel-like qualities - there is so much factual stuff missing you would have a lot of scope to write it.
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Is anyone still wanting to talk about the Rachael Poulton and Angerstein puzzle? I have read all the comments regarding the mystery and have to say it is a real puzzle. I am either related to the Angersteins or the Ovendens according to the statements made. I have recently had my DNA done and I am even more confused as no links have come from any Ovenden families but I have DNA matches from Angersteins further up the tree before Rachael. Rachael is was my great great grandmother but who my great great grandfather was is still a mystery . Please give you views on this. Love this family tree hobby and like most would love to get to the bottom of this and to contact possible relatives.
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Hi all, I've just found this group and am finding this so interesting.
Gertrude Mary Angerstein (Fairhall) was my great gran via her daughter Gertrude and my mum Barbara so I guess we're all some sott of cousins....often wondered about the Angerstein name
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Hello Sharron,
I'm your mum's cousin Diane, daughter of her uncle Derek. I'm not sure of all the answers but if there's anything you want to ask, please do. :)
Dx