RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kilkenny => Topic started by: Silverhawk on Friday 18 September 15 16:13 BST (UK)
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Okay, I've been looking up the RC registers on the NLI site and think I may be progressing with my Irish side, but would like the opinion of you Rootschatters on something before I go any further :)
My great-great-grandmother was called Anne Comerford. On her death certificate in 1924, her daughter reports her to be 75 which would give a birthyear of 1849, however on her marriage certificate in 1868, she says she's 27 which is quite a difference, implying an 1841 birthyear. I'm more inclined to believe the marriage certificate, but of course there's always the possibility that she's made herself seem older so there's less of an age gap on the record - her husband is given as 30 which if she's actually 19 rather than 27 would be more than a decade gap.
I looked at the baptisms for the local parishes but have found nothing promising in the late 1840s. The latest Anne which has the right father's name (Patrick) was born in 1846. There's two promising entries in the early part of the decade though, one in 1840, the other in 1841. The 1841 one jumped out at me right away as the residence is stated to be Coolcullen. Anne was living in Coolcullen at the time of her marriage. So that must be it methinks. Only something else puts a new spin on the situation.
The two witnesses on her marriage certificate are a John Comerford and Johanna Moore who I've discovered married seven days after Anne. Would it be fair for me to assume that John is her brother? On his marriage record, John says he's 25 which puts his birth around 1843. When I looked for a John Comerford born to the parents I found in Coolcullen, I couldn't see an appropriate entry. However when I looked at the other set of parents for the Anne born in 1840, I found a John in 1843 right where he should be. They resided in Kill, Clough parish.
So do you think my Anne is the one in 1840 from Kill, or do you think she's the 1841 one from Coolcullen, and the John Comerford at her marriage is a more distant relative (cousin perhaps?). Or do you think she lied about her age when she married and the younger Anne implied from the death certificate is right? If you think the third option though, she must be from a bit further afield as there's no-one in the parishes I've checked that really match up.
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Have you tried to find family on the 1901 and or 1911 census
Dates of birth and ages were not important in the 1800's
Due to high infant mortality a number of children in a family could have same name.
Family headstone ?
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I know where my Anne was in 1901 and 1911. I found her living in Knocknadogue with her two youngest sons. She's stated as 57 years old in 1901 and 70 in 1911. Her married name was Regan. I don't know where Anne or her husband are buried unfortunately, though I'd love to find out and take a trip over to Ireland at some point.
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Anne is Married on 1901 census, but widow on 1911 census
Have you found husband in 1901.
It might be worthwhile to get Anne's husband death certificate
Old age Pensions began c 1907 so lots of people increased their ages on 1911 census.
Age 70 was pension age.
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Anne is Married on 1901 census, but widow on 1911 census
Have you found husband in 1901.
I haven't unfortunately. I've actually just posted another topic about that. He's not with the family, and I can't seem to find him anywhere else.
It might be worthwhile to get Anne's husband death certificate
Yep, got that a little while ago. He died in September 1902 in Knocknadogue, age 62. Anne reported the death.
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He might be recorded by his initials if he was held in Jail or barracks
Parts of the 1901 census are missing, (there is a seperate thread on this subject) & perhaps he was working away from home.
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Silverhawk
On the basis of the available information, I think you can only go on the balance of probability. Regarding Anne Comerford's birth year, you have four pieces of information two of which agree - her ages on the marriage record and the 1911 census. Both point to 1840-1841 so I think you're right to concentrate on the records in those years. I think that the balance of probability favours John Comerford being her brother. The 1843 birth record for John gives his mother's name as Catherine but the note to the transcription on rootsireland says "MOTHER GIVEN AS PU--". Given that the 1840 birth record for Anne shows her mother's name as Catherine Purcell, I think the note points to her being John's mother too. While these birth records for Anne and John give their address as Kill in Clough parish, John's marriage record gives his address as Coolcullen in Muckalee, just as you say Anne's marriage record does. Not absolutely conclusive I know but I think it stacks up on balance. If this is correct, rootsireland shows Anne and John had siblings Rose (bapt. 13 Jul 1841) and Mary (bapt. 22 Jul 1847) both also with Kill, Clough addresses.
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I have to admit I'm leaning in that direction, I was just hoping something more definitive might come up. That might be asking a bit much though given how much of Ireland's records are missing. I have noticed there's another John Comerford in the area, he and a Bridget Byrne have a child baptised in Castlecomer in 1876.
I've looked at the sponsors of the Regan kids to see if there's any clues there, but no Comerfords unfortunately. I note an Ellen Moore was second sponsor for my great-grandmother. A relative of Johanna's perhaps? The three other kids I've found on the NLI all seem to have members of the Brennan family as their sponsors. John by Edward & Kate Brennan, James by Thomas & Mary Brennan, and Jane by Patrick and Ellen Brennan. A lot of Brennans. Could be just friends of the family, though I'm wondering if there's a connection there too. If a Comerford married a Brennan, that person could maybe help tie Anne and John together, or otherwise?
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You mention the three other children you found. Rootsireland has records for ten children of Patrick Regan and Anne Comerford, including a second James and two Michaels. Another couple of Brennans show up as sponsors. If you haven't got them, I can give you the details if you PM me your e-mail address. The number of Brennan sponsors suggests a close, probably family, connection. I found two Brennan/Comerford marriages - Thomas Brennan and Catherine Comerford in Muckalee parish in 1833 and Patrick Brennan and Margaret Comerford in Castlecomer in 1844. Perhaps one or both of the Comerfords were aunts of Anne? I couldn't find any Brennan/Regan marriages.
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=731109.0
Linked thread
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You mention the three other children you found. Rootsireland has records for ten children of Patrick Regan and Anne Comerford, including a second James and two Michaels. Another couple of Brennans show up as sponsors. If you haven't got them, I can give you the details if you PM me your e-mail address. The number of Brennan sponsors suggests a close, probably family, connection. I found two Brennan/Comerford marriages - Thomas Brennan and Catherine Comerford in Muckalee parish in 1833 and Patrick Brennan and Margaret Comerford in Castlecomer in 1844. Perhaps one or both of the Comerfords were aunts of Anne? I couldn't find any Brennan/Regan marriages.
The NLI images only seem to go up to about 1880, so four is all I could find. Catherine (1869), John (1868), James (1876) and Jane (1878). Patrick Jr (1872) and Julia (1873) I couldn't find at all. I've got names for most of them I think from Ancestry transcriptions, but I'm not sure if the dates attached to them are birthdates or baptism dates.
Is Rootsireland that pay-per-view site? I was tempted, but I'm already shelling out a lot on Ancestry and Find My Past subscriptions and couldn't justify to myself paying the amount per record view that they were asking. Given how much I don't know about this side of the family, I could easily see me spending hundreds of pounds on records that aren't applicable just to find a handful that are.
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Just a PS on whether or not John Comerford was Anne's brother, I've just noticed that one of the witnesses to his marriage to Johanna Moore was Patrick Regan. I think it strengthens the case for John and Anne being siblings rather than cousins.
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I suspect that Thomas Brennan who married Catherine Comerford in 1833 is either a brother or close connection to my 3rd great-grandfather, Patrick Brennan 1813-1885.
Reasons:
Patrick lived in Co Carlow very close to the border of Kilkenny. His eldest daughter was born in Lacken in 1837. His marriage to Mary Ann Jordan (1835) and Maggie's baptism are in the records of St. Lazarian RC in Leighlinbridge.
The marriage of Patrick's brother John (1809-1870s) and Mary Rice in 1836 and the baptisms of their children Margaret, Catherine, Mary, and James are at the same place.
The marriage of Patrick's sister Catherine (1812-1869) to John Roach in 1833 and the baptisms of 8 children are also at the same place.
But Thomas (~1805-1860s) and Catherine's marriage and 2 oldest children aren't recorded there.
In 1842 Thomas and Catherine are in Beckwith, Ontario, 3 lots down from Patrick (who shares a lot with his brother in law Martin Jordan).
In 1851 Patrick Brennan and Thomas Brennan have both moved their families to Grey County, south of Owen Sound.
John and Mary (Rice) Brennan are on the lot Thomas was one in 1842; next door is Catherine Brennan Roach, who has been widowed. (bottom left of red rectangle) http://brennan-families.com/beckwith.jpg (http://brennan-families.com/beckwith.jpg)
In 1861 William Brennan is on Con 2, lot 67 of Holland Twp, and Thomas is there listed in the Directory of Grey Co of 1865-1866. (just to the right and slighly above center) http://brennan-families.com/dornoch.jpg (http://brennan-families.com/dornoch.jpg)
Catherine is widowed and living in Chicago in 1867, 1869, 1874, address 230 N. Halsted. But on the 1870 census, daughter Margaret and her husband Edward Comerford are living there, as is Margaret's yougest sister, Ellen. (I don't know if Edward is related to Catherine or not, but Margaret Brennan Comerford's death record lists her mother as Catherine Comerford and lists her own birthplace as Kilkenny)
In 1880 Catherine is at 104 Liberty in Chicago with sons John and Thomas, divorced daughter Ellen, and Ellen's kids.
I'm nto positive it's Catherine's Thomas is my ggg gf's brother, but it's pretty suggestive.
Chris
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I have to admit I'm leaning in that direction, I was just hoping something more definitive might come up. That might be asking a bit much though given how much of Ireland's records are missing. I have noticed there's another John Comerford in the area, he and a Bridget Byrne have a child baptised in Castlecomer in 1876.
I've looked at the sponsors of the Regan kids to see if there's any clues there, but no Comerfords unfortunately. I note an Ellen Moore was second sponsor for my great-grandmother. A relative of Johanna's perhaps? The three other kids I've found on the NLI all seem to have members of the Brennan family as their sponsors. John by Edward & Kate Brennan, James by Thomas & Mary Brennan, and Jane by Patrick and Ellen Brennan. A lot of Brennans. Could be just friends of the family, though I'm wondering if there's a connection there too. If a Comerford married a Brennan, that person could maybe help tie Anne and John together, or otherwise?
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John and Johanna Comerford are my great grand parents One of their sons Michael is my grandfather
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Her married name was Regan. I don't know where Anne or her husband are buried unfortunately, though I'd love to find out and take a trip over to Ireland at some point.
Hi Siverhawk, seems we may be related based off this thread. I'm Joanna Moore and John Comerfords GGGGGranddaughter. Thanks for your posting about your difficulties on here, as it has been a lot of help to my search.
I'm not sure if you're aware already but i've seen possible errors in spelling for the Ann Regan you're discussing which might aid you're search for her. I've found a photo of a marrige registration for Johanna and John on Ancestry.co.uk which also includes details of Anne and Patrick's marriage are also visible on the page. It sounds Idential to what you're describing but Regan appears to be written as "Gregan". Otherwise dates and other details match up with what you have described. Is it possible you might find more records under Gregan if you haven't already tried this? Perhaps this error in spelling has occurred elsewhere.
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I've recently been sent a photograph of a page from the book "A demographic History of The Comerfords" By Barney Comerford. It hich might be helpful to you. It was written in the 70s. The page is labelled Comerfords in Coolcullen - Castlecomer. And shows a few rough hand draw family tree/pedigrees.
The image appears to indicate that John and Anne Comerford, who you have mentioned you suspect as being siblings, are more likely cousins of some form and suggests John, who married Johanna, had at least three siblings called: James, Alice and Mary who married Anne Purcell, Nick Brenan and Michael Brenan respectively. From a brief search of baptism and marriage records on Rootsireland.ie I have been able to identify siblings who fit this (bar Alice), all having been born in Kiltown castlecomer. Their Parents are Patrick Comerford and Ellen Macevoy/Mcevoy. Sadly they do not have a daughter Anne.
The Anne comerford b.1841, who I believe is the one you've referenced is also mentioned as the daughter of Patrick Comerford and Cath. Mulloy m. 1829. In a short tree that appears to be seperate to that of john. I have attached part of the picture here but have cut some of the image out as a number of people mentioned I know to still be living. The author references his information as coming from a someone in Michael Comerford eldest son's family in the 1970s.
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Thank you for taking the time to reply with this useful information
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Thanks for posting, hllawson :)
Are we certain that the published handwritten tree is absolutely correct? I'm a little wary given that the research was said to be done in the 1970s and the compiler would probably have had less chance to compare and contrast than we do today.
If I go with the hypothesis that Anne was the sister of the John who married Johanna, it all fits together reasonably neatly with the 1840 and 1843 baptisms. However if the above image is correct and that's now proved false, it means I'm back to square one and my options are 1) That my Anne is the 1841 one and I just don't know how she and John are related (I'm assuming they must be related otherwise why were both he and Johanna witnesses for her); 2) She's another Anne completely that I haven't found yet; or 3) The 1840 one is still her, but her brother John wasn't the one who married Johanna Moore, that John being some more distant relation (like in option 1) and her brother just never married (that we can find)? I have nothing that can point to any option however.
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So regarding it’s validity I’m not 100% sure. The author I don’t think researched documents himself and cites a letter from someone I think I’ve identified to still be alive. My plan is to see if I can get in touch to clarify some more when the top row of information came. Someone is also sending me their copy of the book to lend so might be able to get some more information. I will keep you posted.
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Thanks :) I hope it all pans out okay, my Irish branch has always been a tough nut to crack.
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Hola, mis ancestros eran Ellen Comerford y John BRENNAN, Eran de Castlecomer. Puede ser que Anne se hermana o familiar de Ellen?
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Hola, mis ancestros eran Ellen Comerford y John BRENNAN, Eran de Castlecomer. Puede ser que Anne se hermana o familiar de Ellen?
Translating from Spanish via Google-
Hello, my ancestors were Ellen Comerford and John BRENNAN, They were from Castlecomer. Could it be that Anne is Ellen's sister or relative?
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Hello, my ancestors were Ellen Comerford and John BRENNAN, They were from Castlecomer. Could it be that Anne is Ellen's sister or relative?
Can you give us a date for this marriage, please?
It's not coming up on a search via IrishGenealogy.ie
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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Some links to this thread-
Yep, got that a little while ago. He died in September 1902 in Knocknadogue, age 62. Anne reported the death.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1902/05686/4602527.pdf
Knockanaddoge townland
https://www.townlands.ie/kilkenny/fassadinin/dysart/castlecomer/knockanaddoge/
I found her living in Knocknadogue with her two youngest sons. She's stated as 57 years old in 1901 and 70 in 1911. Her married name was Regan.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kilkenny/Castlecomer/Knockanaddoge/1459908/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kilkenny/Castlecomer/Knockanaddoge/565511/
Birth record of last child-
Michael Regan at Knocknadogue [sic] - 2 June 1887
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02558/1946542.pdf
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Hola, perdón mi tardanza en contestar.
John BRENNAN y Ellen Comerford se casaron aparentemente en 1859.
Tuvieron 8 hijos. Michael, Edward, Anne, Daniel, Patrick, Mary, Ellen y John.
Ellen Comerford falleció el 26/9/1896 en clogh, Castlecomer
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Translated from Spanish-
Ellen Comerford died 9/26/1896 at Clogh, Castlecomer
Ellen Brennan aged 62 yrs and wife of a carman died at Cloneen. Her daughter Ellen was the informant.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1896/05882/4668293.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/kilkenny/fassadinin/castlecomer/clogh/cloneen/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4710697#map=13/52.8242/-7.1670
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Muchísimas gracias!