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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: singerjess on Friday 18 September 15 13:37 BST (UK)
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Hello all!
This is a photo of a lady named Ada Bunch. My detective work leads me to believe she was born in 1880 in Aston to Benjamin Bunch (1846-1925) and Clarinda 'Clara' Price (1846-1885). She married Howard Knight (b. 1877) in Aston in 1900 and I'm tracing her through the line of her daughter, Joan Mary Knight (b. 1938). Her great-granddaughter is convinced there must be a black ancestor in Ada's history due to the way she looks (especially her hair! We're sure that's afro hair) and that fact that her father suffers from health issues relating only to those of an Afro/Carribbean descent. Both my friend and her father appear completely caucasian.
I'm currently tracing her on Ancestry with the username 1_headlamp so if anyone spots that public tree, it's mine :)
Any help would be greatly appreciated - even if it's just an opinion on whether her hair is afro or not!
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What a beautiful photograph!
It isn't only her hair which looks Afro-caribbean to me. It's also her features, especially her mouth. Have you traced both parents back through census records to discover if they are there on all of them?
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I know, she's stunning! I thought that about her mouth and her nose slightly too... Very exciting!
So Benjamin Bunch (1846-1925) appears on all census' from 1851 and I'm pretty sure that his parents are William Bunch (1909-1869 born in Dudley) and Catherine (b.1909 in Dudley). He was born in Dudley and lived in Birmingham/Aston in most of the census'.
Clarinda 'Clara' Price (b. 1846) appears from 1851 too and I think he parents are Joseph Price (b. 1811 in Exeter, Devon) and Caroline/Catherine (b. 1814 in Droitwich). She was born in St Andrew's Droitwich and moved to Warwickshire when they got married in 1870.
I have them living in Lancashire in the 1871 census which is the only anomaly to their Midlands life!. So both parents are traceable via census. Will it say in parish registers if someone was black or not? I'm guessing that's my next move?
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I do remember seeing a comment on a baptism record to the effect that a child was black --- but I can't remember when or why I saw this! (Useless aren't I !) However I don't think it was custom and practice to do so.
My initial 'thoughts' are of Caribbean slaves coming over here --- or the child of a soldier who had married abroad. Trouble is - if the line tracks back to a slave - they didn't initially have surnames and took the names of their masters, or even the captain of the ship on which they came over.
In addition -- we don't know which side of the family, or which generation this foreign ancestry may have come from - I think all you can do is trace backwards, as you would with any family research. You could also try the on line newspapers as you go - just to see if any of the names crop up and whether there are any clues there.
I hope someone can help more than I can - and have better ideas.
Good Luck -- she was a beautiful lady and it's a fascinating case.
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My first thoughts would be to try and follow up the link to Devon.
This is a history of black people in Devon, be warned it's long.
http://www.blacknetworkinggroup.org/75/
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Oh that's interesting that there was a note... hopefully I'll get something as obvious (if only it were that easy all the time!!)
Yes, we were wondering if it might lead back to slavery, but I hadn't thought about the child of a soldier - would that be common practice for a British soldier to bring a black wife and child home?
I searched Birmingham newspapers for Ada and her parent's generation but I'll definitely branch out some more. As for working backwards I was afraid someone might say that! ;D ;D ;D
That's a good shout for Devon, I didn't realise that there was a history there. I'll definitely follow that up. I'm trying to get my friend to do a DNA test so we can see where abouts her ancestor came from and then I can narrow down ships logs and slavery registers.
Thanks both, I'll keep you updated and I look forward to hearing more ideas!!
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I'm having some trouble finding Joseph Price (b. 1811) on the 1841 census... I've found a potential entry his wife Caroline/Catherine and two eldest daughters Jane and Ann Maria (down as Mary) living together, but nothing concrete. I'm also searching for any kind of marriage record and well as baptism records of his kids: Jane (b. 1837), Ann Maria (b. 1839), Daniel (b. 1843), Clarinda (b. 1846), William (b. 1849) and Thomas (b. 1855). If anyone can point me in the right direction I can start narrowing down parishes to search!
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Haven't time to look properly at the moment - but Clarinda baptised 2/2/1846 Dodderhill, Worcestershire - parents Joseph and Caroline.
Sadly this is only a trnscription so no real details.
Will search more later.
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Possible baptism for Joseph Price.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1L8-NFH
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Baptism (extracts) for Ann Maria Price, 1839; Daniel Joseph Price, 1842; Thomas Edward Price, 1854:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JW7C-BJN (Ann Maria)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NTBV-6ZG (Daniel Joseph)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV98-QWG (Thomas Edward)
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Thanks both. I use the roots chatroom function and with the help of some wonderful people we're thinking that the wife is called Caroline Jenks, daughter of William and Jane (who appears living with them in the 1851 census as a widowed pauper). So a marriage between Joseph and Caroline is on my hit list!
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Well done!
I had wondered if that Jane Jenks in 1851 was Caroline's mother - especially as she had named a daughter 'Jane' However I couldn't see Jane Jenks in 1841 either!
William Jenks had married a Jane Hammond - Kidderminster in 1814 (if that's the correct marriage)
Unfortunately all these finds are transcriptions. We could do with the actual parish registers being on line.
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The 1841 census shows a Mary Price, aged 55, not born in Worcestershire as head of the household following Catherine/Caroline and the children. Joseph's mother?
1851 census shows Mary Price aged 66 born in Exeter at an address on Tower Hill, St Andrews, Droitwich (same as 1841). She is married, not widowed but there is no husband with her.
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Maybe William Jenks - Jane Hammond incorrect. They had another Caroline born in 1826!
Oh dear me - it would be boring if it went smoothly!
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Thank you for those baptism records. It's funny, I'd already found them but was nervous to add them on because of the discrepancy of Caroline/Catherine with the different dates and censuses. Glad that you've corroborated it so those are all added!
Yes, we thought that about Mary Price (well, RootsChatters did - I'd misread it as Bruce in the census ;D) - I've also added her on to my tree to see if I can build any kind of connection between them - great minds think alike!
Nooooo about the Jenks'! Just as it was looking so promising. So if they had a second daughter called Caroline, it means the first one most likely died. Joseph and Caroline's first daughter is named Mary Ann Gregg Price in her baptism and Mary Ann Grey Price in her burial. Could Gregg/Grey be Caroline's maiden name? Because the Driotwich marriage registers don't appear to be online and I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to get down I'm going to post in the lookup group.... I'll see if anything comes back to me and can pop it on here!
Thank you so much for your help, much appreciated!
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Thinking about the Price born Exeter clue - and the fact that a Mary Price is living next door to Caroline. There is a filmed record of a marriage on FindMyPast amongst it's Devon records, for a John Price, Soldier, to a Mary Ann Trigg at Exeter Holy Trinity on 5/10/1806.
Both 'of this Parish'.
It may just be worth bearing in mind as a possible parentage for Joseph Price.
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Thanks both. I use the roots chatroom function and with the help of some wonderful people we're thinking that the wife is called Caroline Jenks, daughter of William and Jane (who appears living with them in the 1851 census as a widowed pauper).
As you have her parents I assume you also have their marriage, but just in case:
21st October 1797, Elmbridge, Worcestershire
William Jinkes of Elmley Lovet, Bachelor & Jane Packwood of Elmbridge, Worcestershire
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Its not definitive by any means, but Jane Packwood d/o William & Ann was baptised 6th December 1778 at Elmbridge, Worcestershire & had several brothers & sisters including Abel Packwood baptised 7th October 1769.
In the 1851 census Abel Packwood aged 51 (?) s at Elmbridge, Worcestershire with wife Claranda Packwood aged 40 born Imbleton, Worcestershire
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Cant find a baptism for Caroline/Catherine yet, but here's some potential siblings:
24th May 1815, Kidderminster St. Mary, Worcestershire, Frederick s/o William & Jane Jinks of Bird Lane, Tailor
14th March 1817, Kidderminster St. Mary, Worcestershire, Joseph s/o William & Jane Jinks of Church Street, Tailor
15th July 1821, Elmbridge, Worcestershire, William s/o William & Jane Jinks of Stourport, Tailor
24th March 1823, Kidderminster St. Mary, Worcestershire, Alfred s/o William & Jane Jinks of Barn Street, Tailor
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Hi Jomot!
Thank you so much for the info on William and Jane Jinks. Their kids are being baptised in Kidderminster st Mary, but my Caroline (born abt 1814) says that she's from St Peters Droitwich on all the censuses? I would have thought that was unusual but I'm always open to suggestions!!
I've had reply from the Worcestershire look ups and someone is going to try and find Joseph and Caroline's marriage record when they go into the archives in the next couple of weeks so hopefully that will confirm/deny parentage of Jane Jenks and Mary Price!
I've updated my friend and she's so pleased that others are interested in Ada :)
Please, keep the suggestions coming and I will keep you updated of anything I find!
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Hi Jomot!
Thank you so much for the info on William and Jane Jinks. Their kids are being baptised in Kidderminster st Mary, but my Caroline (born abt 1814) says that she's from St Peters Droitwich on all the censuses? I would have thought that was unusual but I'm always open to suggestions!!
If its the right couple then they married in 1797 but I don't start finding children for them until 1815, so they could have been in Droitwich or anywhere inbetween I guess.
I also came across the following reference:
WCRO: BA/8719/15, Documents relating to the apprenticeship of James Hands 1807. Letters relating to William Jinks, 1812
The full paper is here, but I haven't had time to read it so it could be a complete red herring, in which case I apologise ! It does make reference to Elmley Lovett though, so I thought I'd throw it out there anyway ;)
Oops forgot the link: http://eprints.worc.ac.uk/365/10/CONCLUSION.pdf
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Fantastic, thanks Jomot!
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Thanks to Kayy99! Fantastic when all that research comes together!
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User paulrayner also managed to corroborate some info
My wife has been looking into the Price family as her ancestor is David Price (b1825), one of Joseph Price's brothers. She has David's wedding certificate which shows his father (and hence your Joseph's father) as Joseph Price, occupation waterman. This makes sense as being a waterman often ran in families. From birth records on the family search website in the Droitwich area (where most of that generation, except Joseph jr, were baptised) it seems their mother was called Mary and my wife thinks she has found Mary on the 1841 and 1851 census where she is shown as originating from Exeter, which ties with Joseph jr being baptised there. Mary is listed as married and a wife but no husband is present on either census, and to date we can't find Joseph senior on any census. This makes it hard to know where he is from.
There is a wedding of Joseph Price to Mary Ann Grigg in Exeter in 1806 and this may explain the middle name of Joseph jr's first child! The wedding record lists Joseph as a soldier. As this was during the Napoleonic wars and Exeter had a barracks this is not unusual and doesn't mean he is from Exeter originally. My wife has another ancestor from south Wales who joined the army and married in Edinburgh and had his first child in Colchester, before settling back in south Wales.
Just wanted to keep everyone who has been so helpful so far in the loop with the research!
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Hi Jess,
Thank you for the update.
If you find Mary Price's death and order the certificate it should say whether she is wife or widow of 'x' - and give his occupation.
This would be one more piece of evidence.
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I've been researching the Price line for quite some years,I'm related through James Price born in Droitwich 1828 son of Joseph and Mary Ann Price.
I've lots of information on the Price family baptisms marriages etc as I live in Droitwich which I must get around to adding add to my Ancestry tree !
Mary is the mother of James and it shows she was born in Exeter,I've looked into the fact it could be Joseph Price the soldier that married Mary Ann Griggs in 1806.
All the children in Droitwich were born from 1811 onwards and two baptisms are particularly interesting,one for Mary Ann Gregg Price the daughter of Joseph and Caroline born 1835 and another Mary Ann Gregg Price born 1842 daughter of Richard and Christiana.
Richard was James brother they're on the 1841 census with their mother Mary living in
Tower Hill Droitwich.
This links Richard and James together and it's strange that Joseph Price also has a daughter Mary Ann Gregg Price too,so I was very hopefull that this linked things togther nicely and Mary was from Exeter and married Joseph who was a soldier and just needed to find him.
I found a record for a Joseph Price being discharged from the 43rd Regiment of foot after 21 years service in 1827 who was discharged at Devonport and after readin through this http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/pdfs/1911_BNJ_8_15.pdf seems like he could have been in England to have been the father of Joseph baptism 18 June 1809 St Sidwells Exeter.
There are two problems with this even though it looked really promising and that's firstly Joseph and Mary had children in or around these dates taking into account we only have baptism dates to go by for births.
Thomas baptised 1st December 1811,William 15 May 1814,John 29 December 1816,Richard 29 August 1819,Daniel 24 March 1822,David and Soloman twins 23 February 1825 and James 4 May 1828.
The problem being finding out if Joseph was back in England to be the father of these children.
Second every baptism after John it states Joseph was a waterman so surely it would have stated he was a soldier ? Forgot to mention the document states Joseph was born at St Swithuns Worcester,I've found a baptism for a Joseph baptised 15 August 1783 St Swithuns parents William and Elizabeth.
So I thought ok I'll look for a waterman that fits the bill ( I've several who worked on boats mostly taking salt from Droitwich)
And I found one,what was interesting about it was I found it after reading your post singerjess about your friend and Ada Bunch the granddaughter of Joseph.
The record was a Merchant seaman ticket from 1845 which states Joseph was born in Droitwich November 1785 had grey hair hazel eyes was 5ft 7 with complexion stated as dark !
Now the fact that this was 1845 even though obviously it doesn't mean he was black I've read that sometimes this was how they referred to them.
I also noticed that every person on that page had a dark complexion and again because of the time period I could imagine these poor people being made to stand in line separately from everyone else so that would explain that.
Both are very interesting,although not enough to go on just yet to confirm either as Joseph !
This link also seems to show the whereabouts of the 43rd during the time Joseph Price the soldier was in it
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Infantry/Regiments/c_43dFoot.html
Sorry if this was a bit of a ramble !
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Hi Ian!
Sorry for the late reply, I've been having a bit of a break from research! My friend ended up doing a DNA test and no Arifcan/Carribbean/anything remotely not European showed up! Which was not what we were expecting from the photo, but there you go! Thank you for the info, I will have a look at where I got to and cross reference it all.
Thanks again, that is all so helpful!
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https://gw.geneanet.org/lancelot2?lang=en&n=bunch&nz=calvert&ocz=0&p=benjamin&pz=dawn