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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: simon tree on Sunday 06 September 15 08:29 BST (UK)
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Morning All
Trying to find the births and marriage of William Stephen and wife was Mary
All I have is from the census of England 1851/61/ 71 Both born Scotland abt 1805 Lived at Mount Edgecumbe Farm near Maker Cornwall There daughter was Eloy/Elsie who married James Smith
Any help appreciated
Simon
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Good morning Simon,
Were there any children to this couple (I note you mention a daughter)?
It would be helpful please to have their names including any middle names in order of birth, years of birth and country if birth to help try and locate the couple's origins in Scotland.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
All children I 've found were born in Cornwall Maker and St Germans area
Simon
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Hi again Simon,
I'm trying to establish:
Where and when the couple were likely to have married - looking at the 1861 & 1871 Census on Freecen Mary's age is a good bit younger than William's . She is 41 & 52 respectively - making her year of birth circa 1819/1820. Therefore they are most likely to have married late 1830s or sometime into the 1840s. The year of birth of their first child could help narrow that down.
Also names of the children (including middle names)and the order of birth can give clues.
Many Scots followed a naming tradition - which you may or may not be aware of :-\ so apologies if I'm telling you something you already know :)
1st son - named after father's father
2nd son- named after mother's father
3rd son- named after father (unless the name was already in use above)
1st daughter named after mother's mother
2nd daughter named after mother's father
3rd daughter after mother ( unless already in use )
Middle names were frequently the mother's maiden name - other family surnames (granny's maiden names for instance).
There are quite a few William Stephen/Steven/Stephens in Scotland around the years we are looking at so any extra information could help narrow them down.
Do you have the deaths of William and Mary? You have them up till 1871 Census :-\ Were they both dead prior to the 1881?
Sorry for the inquisition but with the info from your first post William and Mary will be very hard to find :)
Looby :)
Added - should have said , of course, that not all Scots followed the naming trad. strictly.
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I think I have Mary as a widow, aged 71, in East Stonehouse, Devon in 1891 - she's at 13 St Paul's Street - her daughter Elsie Smith (nee Stephens) is at 29 St Paul's Street with her husband James and 5 of their children (according to the 1911 census, Elsie and James had 11 children, 10 of whom were still alive in 1911).
Lots on Elsie and James - James Smith was born in 1843 in Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire, to Alexander Smith and Ann Barclay. He was in the navy - a ship's cook, according to the 1881 census. Haven't found a marriage yet (English marriage records are so rubbish ;D), but the first child of theirs I can find is Minnie or Annie (depending on which census record you look at), born abt. 1866 in Maker, Cornwall - there is an Annie Smith, grandchild, with William and Mary Stephens in Maker in the 1871 census. James presumably moved around a bit - one of their children, Alice, was born in 1873 in Greenock, then the remaining children are born in East Stonehouse, Devon.
There's a death for a Martha Mary McK Stephens in East Stonehouse in 1893, aged 78 - which could conceivably be our Mary Stephens - although the age is a bit off - and it's a shame the McK... has been truncated - presumably her maiden name... :(
However, never one to be put off by such an inconvenience... ;D Tantalisingly, there was a marriage between a Mary McKechnie and a William Stephen in Glasgow on 21 Jul 1839... ;)
Ruth
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Hi Ruthhelen,
There is a couple William and Mary Stephen in Barony parish of Glasgow on the 1841 Census. He is a 30 year old Compositor from, ironically, England. Mary is 25 an from Lanarkshire. There are no children.
This couple are also on the 1851 at Rottenrow Street William aged 42 and Mary aged 36, still no children. I wonder if they are the couple you found in Glasgow marrying in 1839?
Interesting that Elsie Stephen's husband James Smith hailed from Aberdeenshire.... I had thought when looking for a possible William Stephen that there were a lot of Stephens in that county and wondered if we'd find William and Mary there.
Last point - on Familysearch the 1861 England Census for Mary has transcribed her as - Mary J Stephan https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M74Y-R7L
The middle initial J does not appear on the Freecen transcription - wonder if it existed or not ? :-\
Looby :)
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There is a couple William and Mary Stephen in Barony parish of Glasgow on the 1841 Census. He is a 30 year old Compositor from, ironically, England. Mary is 25 an from Lanarkshire. There are no children.
This couple are also on the 1851 at Rottenrow Street William aged 42 and Mary aged 36, still no children. I wonder if they are the couple you found in Glasgow marrying in 1839?
Quite possibly - I was just off to do a bit more digging around - it was probably about as tenuous a link as it's possible to find... Nice idea though ;D
on Familysearch the 1861 England Census for Mary has transcribed her as - Mary J Stephan https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M74Y-R7L
The middle initial J does not appear on the Freecen transcription - wonder if it existed or not ? :-\
It doesn't - just looked at the actual image on A******y... ;D
Ruth
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There is a couple William and Mary Stephen in Barony parish of Glasgow on the 1841 Census. He is a 30 year old Compositor from, ironically, England. Mary is 25 an from Lanarkshire. There are no children.
This couple are also on the 1851 at Rottenrow Street William aged 42 and Mary aged 36, still no children. I wonder if they are the couple you found in Glasgow marrying in 1839?
Quite possibly - I was just off to do a bit more digging around - it was probably about as tenuous a link as it's possible to find... Nice idea though ;D
on Familysearch the 1861 England Census for Mary has transcribed her as - Mary J Stephan https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M74Y-R7L
The middle initial J does not appear on the Freecen transcription - wonder if it existed or not ? :-\
It doesn't - just looked at the actual image on A******y... ;D
Ruth
Trust Familysearch to invent an initial ::) Just when I thought perhaps another clue to Mary's name. ;D
I had briefly looked at the English born William with Mary on Scottish 1841 earlier Ruth when considering that the couple might be on that Census. Not that I knew of the McKechnie surname in connection with the couple. They just stood out because he was English born.
Have now checked with a free search the Statutory deaths on Scotlands People. There is a Mary with surnames Stephen/McKechnie , year of birth 1814 1+/- year dying in Blackfriars district of Glasgow 1892. :-\
Not sure if William Stephen and Mary Mckechnie are the couple :-\
Looby :)
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Have now checked with a free search the Statutory deaths on Scotlands People. There is a Mary with surnames Stephen/McKechnie , year of birth 1814 1+/- year dying in Blackfriars district of Glasgow 1892. :-\
Not sure if William Stephen and Mary Mckechnie are the couple :-\
Yes, I think that must be this Mary - have just done the same myself ;D I found William and Mary Stephen in 1861 in Castle Street, Blackfriars - and then Mary later in 1881 at the same address, as a widow...
So not our elusive William and Mary then... onwards and upwards... ::)
Ruth
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The names of some of Elsie and James Smith's children might help us. Here's the ones I could find easily:
- William Alexander Smith
- Edith Bertha Smith
- Alice Maud Victoria Smith
- Eleanor Elsie James Smith
- Ernest John Mackie Stephen Smith
- Charlotte Estella Smith
- Lillian Jessie May Smith
- Beatrice Ethel Daisy Smith
- Charles James Simeon Smith
I can't find Minnie/Annie - although she could be Wilhelmina, or even Amelia...
Ernest John Mackie Stephen Smith is the one that interests me the most - although given that James Smith was from Aberdeenshire, this could be a name from his family...
Ruth
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Hi Ruth
Sorry been out on this sunny day need to catch up
Yes James and Elsie are correct I have his Naval records went all over the world Elsie stayed at home apart from going to Greenock with him which is where Alice was born a twin to Walter Robert Bruce 27 April 1873 he died in 1875
William was my gg grandfather
Thanks Simon
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Well done on finding those names Ruthhelen - that's a fair bit of work :)
Perhaps if Simon can give us the names and years of birth of the Stephen children we could get some clues from their names and a better idea of the year of marriage.
Btw- there was a Martha Stephen/Stevens/Stephens at East Stonehouse Devon born approx. 1815 on English 1891 Census . Perhaps this is the lady whose death you found in 1893?
Looby :)
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Perhaps if Simon can give us the names and years of birth of the Stephen children we could get some clues from their names and a better idea of the year of marriage.
From the census records, I can see three children: Elsie b. abt. 1847, Maker; George b. abt. 1847, Maker (he vanishes after the 1851 census); and Mary b. abt. 1849, Maker (can't find her after 1861, but she could have married before 1871).
Btw- there was a Martha Stephen/Stevens/Stephens at East Stonehouse Devon born approx. 1815 on English 1891 Census . Perhaps this is the lady whose death you found in 1893?
Yes, just noticed her. There doesn't appear to be another death at an appropriate time in East Stonehouse for our Mary Stephen. There's a death for a Mary Stephen, birth approx 1820, in 1899 in Devonport... which according to my (admittedly scant) knowledge of that area, isn't a million miles away... Devonport and Stonehouse are now both parts of Plymouth, if I'm not mistaken... ???
Ruth
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Yes that death looks a good possibility Ruthhelen I'm no expert on English BMD's , Iknow the birth regs don't usually have Mother's maiden name, but what about death certs, Would that entry have Mary Stephen's maiden surname recorded.
If those are all the children , there's not been that many for the times.
Elsie is not that common a name in Scotland as this time , I would say. As for Eloy as a variation for Elsie which Simon mentions in his earlier post, well I'll hold up my hands and admit that I've never heard of that one. There is a 4 year old called Eloya in Aberdeenshire on the 1841 (only person in Scotland) and about 4 with a variation of the name in 1851.
Looby :)
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As for Eloy as a variation for Elsie which Simon mentions in his earlier post, well I'll hold up my hands and admit that I've never heard of that one. There is a 4 year old called Eloya in Aberdeenshire on the 1841 (only person in Scotland) and about 4 with a variation of the name in 1851.
I'm pretty certain that's a transcription error from the 1851 census records - looking at the actual image, it appears to be Elsy - but I can see how the transcriber thought it might be Eloy ;D
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I think Elsy/Elsie and George may have been twins - there's a birth registered for both an Elsy Stephens and a George Stephens in Jan 1847, St Germans, Cornwall - and they are shown as the same age in the 1851 census...
Which would fit with what Simon said about Elsie's daughter Alice being a twin - multiple births tending to wander down the generations... My grandfather was a twin, and my brother has triplets :o
Ruth
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I'm pretty certain that's a transcription error from the 1851 census records - looking at the actual image, it appears to be Elsy - but I can see how the transcriber thought it might be Eloy ;D
Well that makes sense ;D as does George and Elsie being twins if they have same age on 1851 Census.
Unfortunately none of this really enlightens us as to who William and Mary Stephen were and where they originally came from.
Simon ? There is a William Stephens marries September quarter 1845 at St Germans Cornwall - have you established that he isn't the man you are looking for. Name obviously, area and the year of birth first baby/babies all fits well .
Looby :)
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Regarding the 1845 marriage at St Germans of a William Stephens.
The other 3 names on the registration index are:
Elizabeth Brown
Mary Sibellah Ley
Augustin Pritchard.
Interesting that it's a 50% chance that William Stephens married a Mary ;)
Looby :)
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Interesting that it's a 50% chance that William Stephens married a Mary ;)
Quite - the only Mary Ley born in Scotland in the right time period seems to be Mary Ley, born Dec 1820 in Durris, Kincardineshire to Lewis Ley and Jean Duncan. Not sure where the Sibellah comes from though... :o
Ruth
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Interesting that it's a 50% chance that William Stephens married a Mary ;)
Quite - the only Mary Ley born in Scotland in the right time period seems to be Mary Ley, born Dec 1820 in Durris, Kincardineshire to Lewis Ley and Jean Duncan. Not sure where the Sibellah comes from though... :o
Ruth
Not sure these are the right folk for Simon's Scottish ancestors :-\ Ley seems to be a Devon/Cornwall name too ::) Just wondered if Simon had ruled this marriage out.
In my vivid imagination Sibellah was how the vicar/registrar picked up Mary's Scots brogue saying Isabella :D :D
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Not sure these are the right folk for Simon's Scottish ancestors :-\ Ley seems to be a Devon/Cornwall name too ::)
Sadly, looks as if you're right - Mary Sibellah Ley was baptised on 19 Apr 1818 in Maker, Cornwall, the daughter of Thomas Hunt Ley and his wife Sarah... sigh... ::)
Ruth
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THANKYOU FOR YOUR TIME
Sorry for begin slow to respond never had so much help
The children you have found for William and Mary are the ones I had found had to look back through my unkempt notes and agree that three children is a low amount for the time Elsie seems to lived in East Stonehouse all of her married life just across the water from Mount Edgecumbe Farm apart from her time in Greenock
I wonded if William work brought him and Mary to Cornwall even checked military records to no avail he seems to be a farmer 1851 / bailiff 1861/looks like blind on the 1871 census
Simon
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Surely purchasing birth certificate of one of the 3 children would help? At least you'd have a surname for Mary to help with searching for a) the marriage of William and Mary and b) Mary's baptism.
Annette
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looks like blind on the 1871 census
FreeCEN has it as Hind ?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=85325.0
ev
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Hi Annette
Orded birth cert on Sunday morning
Hi ev
That would fit with his other occupations
Regards Simon
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FreeCEN has it as Hind ?
Now I didn't know this - I had to look it up - but seemingly a 'hind' is a Scots term for an agricultural labourer - just goes to show, you learn a little something every day... ;)
Ruth
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Orded birth cert on Sunday morning
Do let us know the answer Simon - I'm starting to feel like I know this family personally ;D ;D
Ruth
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Orded birth cert on Sunday morning
Do let us know the answer Simon - I'm starting to feel like I know this family personally ;D ;D
Ruth
Me too ;D Be great if we could find where they came from.
Looby :)
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looks like blind on the 1871 census
FreeCEN has it as Hind ?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=85325.0
Could be Herd.....to do with cattle ???
Annie
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May have just found William s death in the West Briton and Cornwall Advertiser 11/12/1873
"At Mount Edgecumbe Farm Maker Mr William Stephens age 73 years"
Looks a very good fit
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May have just found William s death in the West Briton and Cornwall Advertiser 11/12/1873
"At Mount Edgecumbe Farm Maker Mr William Stephens age 73 years"
Looks a very good fit
It does - although I can't find a corresponding death registration - the only death registration I could find in St Germans for a William Stephens was for last quarter 1871, which has him aged 65 and born circa 1806 ???
Ruth
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It transpires that there were two William Stephens, both farmers, around the same age, living in Maker at the time of the 1871 census - both of whom's wives were called Mary ??? how freaky is that?
Anyway, I think that the death I discovered above was for the second William Stephens, born abt. 1806 Stoke Damerel, Devon (just over the water in Plymouth). His wife was Mary Ann, born abt. 1807, Quethiok, Cornwall - she appears in Maker as a widow in 1881.
Still doesn't explain why 'our' William Stephens' death can't be found in 1873. Registered in another district perhaps?
Ruth
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RH,
2nd William is on here I think with wife Mary Ann (1871- line 1) ???
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kayhin/72228a.html
Annie
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Again in 1861............
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kayhin/61522a.html
Annie
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This might be worth looking through ???
http://www.devonheritage.org/FrameMain_ParishRecords.htm
Annie
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Think Mary ann and William are not mine as there not at Mount Edgecumbe Farm on the 1871 census there at what looks like Radford Farm House
Cant find Williams death in registers either went back and checked the paper date and it was correct 11/12/1873
Simon
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Cant find Williams death in registers either went back and checked the paper date and it was correct 11/12/1873
Odd isn't it? I can see how the registration of a birth might slip through the net, but a death? Especially as it's been reported in the paper. All I can think is that it must have been registered in a different registration district - or the spelling of the name is somehow different enough not to be picked up in a search...
Ruth
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Birth cert arrived for Elsy
Her mothers Mary maiden name was Barclay
So William Stephens married Mary Barclay a quick search and found them marrying on 17 May 1846 at King Edward Aberdeenshire Elsy arrives on 1st March 1847 Maker Cornwall
Elsy married James Smith who was born in Cummistown Aberdeenshire a quick google and I find King Edward is 7 miles away James mother was a Ann Barclay who's parents were Alexander and Isobel so was Mary related ?? did James marry a cousin of some sort ??
Simon
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Birth cert arrived for Elsy
Her mothers Mary maiden name was Barclay
James mother was a Ann Barclay who's parents were Alexander and Isobel so was Mary related ?? did James marry a cousin of some sort ??
You might be on to something there ;) From what I can see, Alexander Barclay married Isobel Morison on 2 Jan 1813 in the parish of Monquhitter (which is where Cuminestown is). They had four daughters and two sons that I can see - James' mother, Ann Barclay was born 3 Apr 1816, and her sister, Mary Barclay was born 4 May 1818... Which does tie in neatly with the age of Elsy's mother, Mary... ;D
So James and Elsy may well have been cousins - their marriage certificate, if you have it, may confirm that - I know marriage certificates in Scotland normally recorded if the couple were first cousins, but I don't know if English records do likewise...
I have a hunch James Smith was illegitimate - the baptism in the parish records may confirm that - his mother, Ann Barclay appears as unmarried in the 1851 and 1861 census, and James is living with his grandparents, Alexander and Isobel Barclay in 1851. In fact, they have four grandchildren with them - two of whom appear to be Ann's: James Smith and Alexander Barclay (b. 1835), and two of whom seem to be children of Ann and Mary's younger sister, Barbara - Isobel Gaul and Christian Stuart (Barbara goes on to marry Robert Stuart, the father of her second child).
Ruth
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Thanks Ruth
Came across James being illegitimate before have now sent for James and Elsy Marriage cert hopefully to find they were cousins (that sounds strange)
I have never been able to find a marriage for Ann Barclay so believe she may never married
So now need to find where William Stephens was born Don't know if marriage certs are available for 1846 If they are whats the best place to order Scottish Certificate's from
Regards Simon
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So now need to find where William Stephens was born Don't know if marriage certs are available for 1846 If they are whats the best place to order Scottish Certificate's from
The definitive source is the Scotland's People website, where you can find the majority of records online, for a modest fee. Prior to 1855, all you'll get for marriages is any entry in the parish records - these are variable in quality, and some haven't survived at all.
However.... because I feel like I know this family personally now, and had some spare credits for Scotland's People - I've had a look at William and Mary's marriage entry ;D ;D It reads:
May 17th: William Stephen in the parish of Maker, County of Cornwall, and Mary Barclay in this parish, declared their purpose of marriage and were married
So, on the plus side, we know we have the correct couple - but it doesn't enlighten us as to where William Stephen was born, only that he was already residing in Cornwall by the time of his marriage to Mary.
There are some Stephens in both Monquhitter parish and King Edward parish at the time of the 1841 and 1851 census, but I haven't yet found anything that ties them to our William Stephen :-[
Ruth
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RUTH THANKYOU VERY VERY MUCH ;D ;D
So William was already living in Cornwall and returned to marry Mary was not expecting that I need to go and look at the 1841 census to see if he was in Maker in that year
Thanks Again
Simon