RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Torwoodlee on Friday 04 September 15 20:56 BST (UK)
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Does anyone know when this will be available? It was supposed to be later during this year; there are only a few months left! FindMyPast don't seem to be keeping anyone up to date on what's happening as far as I can tell.
Borderslass :)
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If you register here: http://www.findmypast.co.uk/1939register
you will be kept up to date as to what is happening!
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If only that were true ::)
The odd e-mail saying "later" doesn't constitute being kept up to date for me.
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last i heard,it was "by the end of the year " ::)
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...which borderslass already knew.
Frustrating though it might be for her, if I were in FindMyPast's shoes and being questioned, I'd be saying, "We told you by the end of the year and we"re still on track for that"
I'm sure there'll be a big enough fanfare when they can be a bit more certain.
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Perhaps these titbits might help but it is historic information as I cannot step on people’s toes.
Back in 2013 the National; Archives published a report on their achievements for the year 2012-2013 which included
http://nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/annual-report-12-13.pdf.
“Undertake trials to establish a secure methodology for digitising the 1939 National Register
Achieved. A sample of 40,000 records from the 1939 Register has been transcribed – proving that between 73% and 88% of individuals’ records can be opened on accession in digital form. A conservation survey of the collection based on a statistically sound sample of volumes has also established the extent of the preparation required to make the Register safe to scan”
Here is a video of some of the conservation work involved and of the digitisation process as Findmypast say on their July 2015 release.
“We're hard at work scanning and digitising the 7,000 volumes that contain the 40 million individual entries to the Register. To give you an insight into the journey one volume of the Register takes as it goes through the process of conservation, scanning and digitisation, we've made this video for you to enjoy.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdZE0NP-IVs&feature=youtu.be
The process is still on track but do not forget scanning is only part of the process as it has to be indexed and parts redacted before it is released.
All of which takes time and a huge effort.
If you are interested in the Scottish 1939 National Register you can apply here
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01g1v/ at a cost of £15
Cheers
Guy
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New addition to the Society of Genealogists lecture programme:
Myko Clelland from FindMyPast on the 1939 Register
http://www.sog.org.uk/books-courses/events-courses/the-1939-register-the-home-front-from-your-own-home
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On FindMyPast
There is a new(ish) button on FindMyPast advertising the near commencement of the 1939 Registers being put online.
In 1939, on the eve of World War II, the British government introduced an act that would allow them to gather vital information about the country’s population. This information would inform their decisions on identity cards, rationing, conscription and more, including – eventually – the formation of the NHS. In 2015, for the first time, Findmypast in partnership with The National Archives are publishing the 1939 Register online, providing an unprecedented insight into a country on the verge of war
Just a word of thanks to RootsChats Guy Etchells for being one of the many who drove this and getting this online soon
A reminder that FindMyPast is a pay site so you will need to join to access. (hope this doesn't come across as an advert- just hoping to make people aware of a new record set :) )
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Hi
Findmypast have been providing very little information re pricing but have stated on at least one occasion that it won't be part of the current subscriptions but will be an add-on.
Also people born less than 100 years ago will be redacted.
Andy
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Thank you andy. I would have assumed it would be part of their normal subscription price? Ok they may put those up , but that then remains the right of the consumer to assess price v need.
As to the redacting , how will this be done? I assume there is information on the original forms to highlight who was born pre1914?
So a WW2 form will actually be representative of WW1 ;D
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They went on line yesterday......see previous posts about views about them
Ringrose
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I even searched ;D
Can mods merge please
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They went on line yesterday......see previous posts about views about them
Ringrose
The electoral registers dataset (1832-1932) which went online yesterday are not the same thing as the 1939 National Identity Card Register.
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Hi
The form has date of birth of each person so it is easy to identify people to be redacted.
Some time ago from an FOI request the Information Commissioner ruled that information could only be released on people who were deceased. I'm curious as to whether the Information Commissioner has varied their ruling or whether the Department (NHS?) has the authority to vary it, if not, then I dont know how they can release information on living people over 100 years old.
You will be able to apply for information on redacted people now deceased but FindMyPast have given no indication as to how that will be done nor whether there will be a fee to process the request.
Andy
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There's a live webinar with a 'special announcement' on October 30. You have to sign up and viewing appears to be limited.
My guess is that this will reveal the details of the launch. I saw the invite go up the day before the new button appeared in the top menu bar.
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Hi
The form has date of birth of each person so it is easy to identify people to be redacted.
Some time ago from an FOI request the Information Commissioner ruled that information could only be released on people who were deceased. I'm curious as to whether the Information Commissioner has varied their ruling or whether the Department (NHS?) has the authority to vary it, if not, then I dont know how they can release information on living people over 100 years old.
You will be able to apply for information on redacted people now deceased but FindMyPast have given no indication as to how that will be done nor whether there will be a fee to process the request.
Andy
If you are referring to the Freedom of Information claim that I made in 2009 then yes you are correct the Information Commissioner ruled that information could only be released on people who were deceased.
HOWEVER I believe the Information Commissioner misdirected himself when he considered the following-
23. In addition to this, the Commissioner also notes that the withheld information would fall under the definition of ‘personal census information’ as set out in the Census Act 1920 (the “Census Act”). Section 8(2) of the Census Act specifies that if the Registrar General, or any person under his control or supplying services to him, discloses any personal census information to another person without lawful authority, he is guilty of an offence – this has previously been considered in detail by the Commissioner in FS50147944.1 Whilst the Commissioner is aware that the 1939 Register does not fall under this legislation, he believes that the statutory bar contained therein is indicative of public policy in relation to personal information of this nature.
The reason I believe that this is a misdirection is the Acts like the Marriage Act, 1949 and the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953 contain the same or similar information but public policy demands that such information be released on payment of a fee.
One cannot claim one particular Act is indicative of public policy in relation to personal information of this nature when at least two (and indeed more) Acts legislate for the reverse.
I did not appeal it at the time as I had won what I wanted at the time and contented myself with that.
The 100 year rule is a figment of people’s imagination it does not exist in law.
It was enacted in1966 (Lord Chancellor’s Instrument number 12); it was repealed by the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
For the Information Commissioner to claim public policy of 100 years of secrecy (something that was not enacted until 45 years later) credits the public with the ability to foretell the future.
What he should have done is to look at how similar releases of information were treated at the time or previous to the 1939 National Registration and he would see that census records were being released between 70 and 80 years after they had been taken in England & Wales.
As with the 1921 Census the National Archives claims it will be released in 2022 but the legislation that controls it's release the Census Act 1920 (as amended) clearly states now information is to be released and puts no time span as to how long the restriction lasts.
It is therefore just as legal to release the information today as it it is on the 2nd January 2022 or to put it another way if it is illegal to release it today it will still be illegal in 2022 unles legislation is passed in the meantime allowing such a release.
Cheers
Guy
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I fully appreciate that this process takes time but it would have been customer friendly to possibly update on progress or give a projected date for example instead of just saying 'this year'. Many of us are paying customers; it's just a courtesy to have some sort of communication, albeit minimal.
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There is a blog that you can follow and participate in.
Recent posts:
"Is there any indication when the register will actually be released? And will it be available as part of a standard subscription or will it be subject to additional charges?"
"Well, it's 13th October so if it's still happening in 2015, and unless it's coming out on New Years Eve, the updates must be coming soon I hope! Should be fun."
JimShaughnessyFMP:
"Hi there. We're not ready to announce just yet, but stay tuned for updates in the near future"
http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/2015/what-does-the-1939-register-mean-for-family-historians/
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Thanks ShaunJ. I emailed them recently and their response was as follows:
Thank you for getting in touch regarding the 1939 Register.
We can confirm the 1939 Register will be released in 2015. Although we do not have a release date or confirmed cost for this as yet.
Since the 1931 census was destroyed, and there was none taken in 1941, the 1939 Register provides an invaluable ‘census substitute’ for historians of the more recent past. This fantastic resource will open up entirely new avenues for genealogical research.
The 1939 register was taken on 29 September 1939 by the British Government, shortly after the outbreak of WW2. It recorded personal details of individuals in order to issue identity cards and ration books, and later formed the basis of the National Health Service’s records.
You can register an interest at the following website if already not done so:
www.findmypast.co.uk/1939register
Feel free to contact us, if you have any other questions.
I'm suspecting it will be available not long before Christmas to capitalise on the festive season, lol.
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Thanks for the update Borderlass, although the part "Although we do not have .... or confirmed cost for this as yet" is a bit concerning. Is it not going to be part of our existing sub?
Having just got hit by a 12% increase from Ancestry......... >:(
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FindMyPast on their Facebook page a few weeks back, in response to a query, said it wouldn't be included as part of current subs and they couldn't advise at that point what the costs would be.
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Oh, I see ::). I do sense that they will have an extra fee as they did when the 1911 census first came out!
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Thanks for the update Borderslass...how disappointing that there will be an extra charge on top of subs to view the records...as if Family History isn't expensive enough as it is :-\
Carol
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I think it will be a case of wait and see what the costs will be, in my mind it will be worth it, although hopefully not to high a cost, will keep me busy in between waiting for the 1921 census which won't be out till 2021
I have signed up even though I do already subscribe to FindMyPast
Louisa Maud
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If it was not for FindMyPast the only way to get it at the moment would be to pay £42 per request
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gbh/
http://www.hscic.gov.uk/register-service
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It costs a lot to digitise an enormous record set like the 1939 Register, so it shouldn't be surprising that we'll have to pay more for a subscription when it when it is released. But over time the cost will come down, as it did for the 1911 census. You just have to be patient and resist the urge to access all the records you want the moment it is released.
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There was a very brief period prior to them starting to charge £42 where we were able to get them for nothing - Thanks to Guy posting it on here.
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And you will see the original Register page (but with details of people born less than 100 years ago blanked out, unless they are known to be deceased). I have no family interest in the Register, because no-one in my family was in England or Wales in 1939, but I'll be able to see who was living in my house. And there are always the in-laws' families, I suppose...
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And you will see the original Register page (but with details of people born less than 100 years ago blanked out, unless they are known to be deceased). I have no family interest in the Register, because no-one in my family was in England or Wales in 1939, but I'll be able to see who was living in my house. And there are always the in-laws' families, I suppose...
That's probably why it is taking so long to appear - having to check that everyone born less than 100 years ago and who isn't dead will have to blanked out. ::) Wonder what the cut-off date is? As this is a snapshot of a date in 1939, does it really matter whether those listed are dead or still alive - it's more than 75 years ago :o ::) ::) ::) ::) Nothing is going to alter that fact! OK, my parents are dead and I wasn't born.
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I am interested in whether the information originally given for the National Register would include actual birth dates of those in England/Wales 1939. I am looking for a Rolf Creasy, MD who was born in Colombo, Ceylon, 1864. His parents were a little lax and some children had their births in the Times of London but not him. He died 1948 - too early for birth dates on Death Certificates. Some of his siblings were baptized in Ceylon but I cannot find him!
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I am undecided whether or not to go in for it. There should be 3 people living at the address, my parents and my maternal grandmother. I was there, but in waiting for January 1940 so to speak. My interest would be if any other people were regstered.
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I am interested in whether the information originally given for the National Register would include actual birth dates of those in England/Wales 1939. I am looking for a Rolf Creasy, MD who was born in Colombo, Ceylon, 1864. His parents were a little lax and some children had their births in the Times of London but not him. He died 1948 - too early for birth dates on Death Certificates. Some of his siblings were baptized in Ceylon but I cannot find him!
The records I ordered for my great grandparents living in England in 1939, who were born in the Isle of Man pre-registration of births, included their dates of birth, information that was not on their baptisms.
Blue
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I think it will be a case of wait and see what the costs will be, in my mind it will be worth it, although hopefully not to high a cost, will keep me busy in between waiting for the 1921 census which won't be out till 2021
I have signed up even though I do already subscribe to FindMyPast
Louisa Maud
Sorry to say LM,the 1921 (if we are allowed to view it,and that's not 100% guaranteed yet) won't be out till the 1st working day (2nd Jan) of 2022 :(
Can't wait for the 1939 as I am keeping my fingers crossed that it will shed some light on an American friend of mine's grandma (who was born in Poland) who died here but with no records of the death.
Carol
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You will get exact birth dates (but not birthplaces), assuming that the correct information was given in the first place - there's a lovely bit in the Registrar General's broadcast on National Registration night where he explains how to work out your year of birth, in case you are not sure! http://media.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php/1939-national-registration-night/
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Mean_genie, thank you for pointing out the 100 year rule. I have a situation, however. My mother was born in Galashiels Scotland in 1941 so would she have been issued a card after her birth? If so, she has now passed away but in Canada. How do individuals get full access if the individual was a young child at that time but has now passed away?
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I was certainly issued with a card Jan 1940,I had a ration book, they were all stolen from my mother c1942 when she was out shopping, replacements were difficult to get.
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I will contact FindMyPast again and ask about this as I am sure there are many people who would have the same circumstances. In my case I have a death certificate as proof so I will let you know what they say.
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This information relates to 29 September 1939.
Blue
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I see, well at least I'll be able to see my grandparents. However, I have asked as those people who have relatives who were born prior to that date who have passed away may be interested in the response from FindMyPast.
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My Mum and her parent's were born England. They came to NZ in the 1950's and all are now deceased but my Mum was born end 1935 so not yet 100. Will i have to prove deaths before i can get any info?
I am sure there will be others like me.
Carol
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Before FindMyPast had the 1939 registers it was possible to get info by paying around £45 (from memory). I got the full details of my aunt and uncle and although he died in 1955 he was only 50 at the time, she didn't die until 1993 when she was 93. At the time I had to know their names and their address. Obviously I knew their names, but only the city they had lived in at the time. I didn't know the address. I was still able to get the information. I guess it was because both of them had died by the time I requested the info.
As my aunt and uncle weren't married, I just needed to know my uncle's date of birth which was on the information. My mother had let slip his real surname, not the one the couple were using, so I was able to trace him (and his first family). Not that I did anything with the information only put it on my private tree.
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BordersLass, everyone born in the UK up to 1952 will have been issued with an Identity Card. Identity Card numbers eventually became National Health Service numbers. I know more about the way the system worked in England and Wales, but the same principles applied in Scotland, although the details may differ; anyone born after the Register was taken was added to a separate register, called the Birth Register (surprise). Each local birth register was allocated a 4-letter code, and Identity Card numbers were made up of this code, plus the number of the birth entry.
The Register being released is for England and Wales only, but for Scotland you can submit a Freedom of Information request. But I believe it still only applies to people included in the original 1939 Register, not those born later. http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/statistics-and-data/nhs-central-register/about-the-register/1939-national-identity-register-and-how-to-order-an-official-extract
But you may be able to get Register information on her parents.
For someone who was a young child in 1939, but has since died, deaths up to the 1990s were noted on the NHS Register. For more recent deaths, or deaths overseas, a death certificate will be required for a record to be opened.
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Thanks for that information Mean_genie. Am I the only one or do others find it perplexing that they are releasing this information (the 1939 register) but the government refuses to release the 1921 census and won't until 2022. From what I understand, similar information is on the 1939 register. ??? A few years back the government can be quoted as saying 'Where do you draw the line?' to justify not releasing the 1921 census early. In my opinion, 'draw the line' with the 1921 census???? It just doesn't make any sense.
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From the internet:
Accessing the 1921 Census .... when will the 1921 Census be released?
The ruling by the Information Commissioner that resulted in the 1911 Census for England and Wales being opened early does not apply to the 1921 Census because, unlike the 1911 Census, the 1921 Census was conducted under the 1920 Census Act, which is still in force and which contains a statutory prohibition on disclosure.
The stated government position from the ONS is "its intention to release the entirety of the 1921 Census returns in 2022, in accordance with the non-statutory '100 year rule' which was adopted to reflect this undertaking of confidentiality".
Despite numerous protestations and challenges, the Government seems to be firmly sticking to the 100 year rule. One reason could of course be that if a census does go ahead in 2021 then there would have to be strong promises of confidentiality and that would not sit easily alongside the government suddenly releasing the 1921 census early when the promise was made at the time that the information on individuals would never be made public.
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There is less information in the 1939 Register than in the 1911 census; no birthplaces, or relationships within a household, naturalisation or nationality status, or fertility. Only name, date of birth, marital status and occupation were recorded, at the address where each person was on 29 September 1939.
Records are not opened or retained according to a single set of rules, and there are plenty of inconsistencies and anomalies. Legally, any census from 1921 onwards is covered by the 1920 Census Act. Prior to that, each census had its own Act, as did the 1939 Register. The 1841 and 1851 censuses were released in the 1920s, the 1891 census for Scotland was released some years before the 1891 census for England and Wales, and for a few years you could see the 1911 census for Northern Ireland in Dublin, but not in Belfast. The 1911 census for England and Wales was released early, with restrictions, as the 1939 Register for England and Wales will be, following successful challenges under FoI but the 1911 census for Scotland remained closed for the full 100 years, although it was actually opened exactly 100 years after it was taken, in April, and not in January of the following year, as is customary. The 1939 Registers for Scotland and Northern Ireland remain closed, but FoI requests can be submitted for individual records. Personal records of people who served in the armed forces after about 1923 are still held by the Ministry of Defence, but Merchant Navy records (where they survive) are open. That is what I can remember without looking anything up - goodness knows what else I'd find if I really looked hard! :) And I haven't even mentioned BMD records... :)
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Gosh I often wonder how many BMD certs are there where an ancestor registered the death of, or was a marriage witness to. At marriages and deaths of never before known friends, relatives etc, neighbours.
I did look up the 1939 register for my great, great gran a few years ago, and paid for it. Her year of birth was a year out (as you may expect for someone born in 1863) even though day and month was right. I cannot wait for the full register to come out on FindMyPast so I can find where my nans older half brother was, all I know is he was in London and had a common name, but I have his DOB. He was born in May 1915 so just over 100 years ago and died in 2006, and when they started digitisng them he may have still come under the Under 100 years ago birth category though. Dont know if they would have check for a death.
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I've no burning questions about 1939, I know where most people were living that'd be "important" to my files .... but, it'd have been interesting to do "random searches" to find out where everybody was actually living... the extended family.
I have the exact address my grandmother/uncles were living; I have the exact address my mother/grandparents/great-uncles were living. Beyond that it's just mild interest (if free) to have then looked up everybody's names. e.g. the great-uncles who'd married by that date ... and anybody else that was still alive. But no "need".
My grandmother and great-grandparents etc moved into new housing estates between 1933-1936 and I can see their applications to install a shed are held at the local archives... giving their name and their exact address. So that covers that as I know my great-grandmother lived in that house until the mid 1950s and my grandmother lived in hers until 1990 or so.
Having unfettered/free access might throw up some unexpected "A was living with B" scenarios that one hadn't expected, I guess.
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Just read on the Who Do Think You are website regarding the 1939 register, that FindMyPast users with have unlimited access to the records as part of their subscription.
Carol
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I have just read the Find my Past page re the 1939 register,it's quite interesting.
http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/2015/what-does-the-1939-register-mean-for-family-historians/
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I eagerly read all of the answers and it looks very much like I may be able to find my person Rolf Creasy born in Ceylon with no documentation. Hopefully he was in England and he did register and that may be the only time his birth date is published. Being an MD he should get his birthdate right!
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Just read on the Who Do Think You are website regarding the 1939 register, that FindMyPast users with have unlimited access to the records as part of their subscription.
Carol
Well that would be a change of tune from last month on FindMyPast's own Facebook page. Do you have a link to the article Carol please as can't seem to find one? I'd be surprised, having already said there would be an additional charge, if they've gone back on it but I wonder if the "unlimited access" refers to an add-on subscription for it which was what was being suggested by them on Facebook last month. I hope there isn't an extra sub involved but it wouldn't surprise me if there was, as with the 1911 Census when it initially became available on the site.
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The feature on the WDYTYA website is a news story from March 2014
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/millions-people-be-revealed-1939-register-online
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Just been a bit sad and scrolled through the "posts to page" on FindMyPast's Facebook page. It was middle of August when someone managed to solicit a response from FindMyPast regarding whether the 1939 National Register would be included in existing subscriptions or not. As you can see from the attached (I've excluded the name of the person who posted the query, and rubbed out their photo, out of privacy but have included the date), they have said it will involve a "supplementary charge". Now I hope they change their mind, but I doubt very much that will happen.
On the question about when it will be released, interestingly the Society of Genealogists have a one hour lecture on 18 November by a FindMyPast staff member on how to get the best out of the data (fully booked but only listed recently) - http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gbj/. I'd be surprised if this had been timetabled to appear much, if at all, prior to the National Register being released because otherwise the participants won't be able to "practice" the tips after they have attended. However, time will tell. :-\
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Unfortunately the one person I want a date of birth for, my g.grandfather, died in 1935. :'( :'(
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If my dad was deemed to have enlisted in RASC on 3rd September 1939, were May he be listed on the register, do you know?
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Anyone who was already in military service would not be included, unless they were home on leave on Registration Night.
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There is less information in the 1939 Register than in the 1911 census; no birthplaces, or relationships within a household, naturalisation or nationality status, or fertility. Only name, date of birth, marital status and occupation were recorded, at the address where each person was on 29 September 1939.
Records are not opened or retained according to a single set of rules, and there are plenty of inconsistencies and anomalies. Legally, any census from 1921 onwards is covered by the 1920 Census Act. Prior to that, each census had its own Act, as did the 1939 Register. The 1841 and 1851 censuses were released in the 1920s, the 1891 census for Scotland was released some years before the 1891 census for England and Wales, and for a few years you could see the 1911 census for Northern Ireland in Dublin, but not in Belfast. The 1911 census for England and Wales was released early, with restrictions, as the 1939 Register for England and Wales will be, following successful challenges under FoI but the 1911 census for Scotland remained closed for the full 100 years, although it was actually opened exactly 100 years after it was taken, in April, and not in January of the following year, as is customary. The 1939 Registers for Scotland and Northern Ireland remain closed, but FoI requests can be submitted for individual records. Personal records of people who served in the armed forces after about 1923 are still held by the Ministry of Defence, but Merchant Navy records (where they survive) are open. That is what I can remember without looking anything up - goodness knows what else I'd find if I really looked hard! :) And I haven't even mentioned BMD records... :)
What restrictions are there on the 1911 census as per your above post?
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There are no restrictions now, but when it was released early the column recording disabilities was blanked out, this was considered to be sensitive information. Details of children born in prison was also supposed to be redacted for the same reason, but as far as I know there weren't any. If you see a copy of a household schedule from 1911 that was downloaded before January 2012 it will have a white strip down the right-hand side.
In the 1939 Register, any entry that is redacted will be covered up in a similar way, but the cover can be 'peeled back' when the 100 years has passed, or when proof of death has been verified. Clever stuff.
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There are no restrictions now, but when it was released early the column recording disabilities was blanked out, this was considered to be sensitive information. Details of children born in prison was also supposed to be redacted for the same reason, but as far as I know there weren't any. If you see a copy of a household schedule from 1911 that was downloaded before January 2012 it will have a white strip down the right-hand side.
In the 1939 Register, any entry that is redacted will be covered up in a similar way, but the cover can be 'peeled back' when the 100 years has passed, or when proof of death has been verified. Clever stuff.
The column was voluntary blanked out, it was not required to be redacted under law.
The data commissioners ruling was that the sensitive information should be looked at on a case by case basis and a desicion made whether it was information that required redacting or not.
It was easier to redact the entire column and as nobody questioned it or complained they got away with it.
Cheers
Guy
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I have a lot of those redacted 1911 print outs on my files. I've left them as they are it would be a pain to do them again with the last column shown. I've collected the complete JPEGs though so I have both versions to view on PC.
Blue
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It wasn't only easier to blank out all of the disability columns, it made practical sense too. If the only bits that were blanked were the ones where a disability was recorded, that would indicate that a person had a disability, which could be a potentially sensitive piece of information in itself. It was just a bit of a nuisance when other information had strayed over into that column so we couldn't read it until 2012.
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Thank you I didn't know that as I was off the Family history wagon at that point.
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It wasn't only easier to blank out all of the disability columns, it made practical sense too. If the only bits that were blanked were the ones where a disability was recorded, that would indicate that a person had a disability, which could be a potentially sensitive piece of information in itself. It was just a bit of a nuisance when other information had strayed over into that column so we couldn't read it until 2012.
No that was the claim made by the National Archives but the Information Commission agreed with me that was not accurate and could not be upheld in law.
He ruled in paragraph 53
"The Commissioner concludes by emphasising that each request for 1911 census
information must be treated separately on its merits. The National Archives will
need to consider the substance of the information which has been requested in
each case, will need to review what is stated on the face of the relevant census
schedule and may need to make further enquires."
What you are confusing and the National Archives was also confusing is the difference between personal information and private information and which will be confidential in nature.
Paragraph 37
“As indicated above, the Commissioner accepts that there may be categories of
information recorded on the face of the 1911 census schedules which have the
quality of confidence because they are likely to give rise to an expectation of
privacy. This is the kind of information which will meet the Campbell criteria of
‘private’ information and which will be ‘confidential’ in nature. In such cases -
taking into account that expectations can change from one generation to another
- the individuals concerned would have had a reasonable expectation of privacy
at the time of completion of the census schedules.”
An example of this would be a disability such as being blind; such information is personal information but has no confidential implications, everyone would know he/she was blind.
That would be different from someone described as lunatic, imbecile or idiot, it would also be different from revealing that a person was an inmate in an asylum all of which would require redacting.
Cheers
Guy
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I'm sure you are right, but 'each request for 1911 census information must be treated separately on its merits.' sounds like a bit of a tall order. If they had gone through every schedule with a disability on it and weighed up each one individually first I think we'd have been stuck with the expensive one-off searches for even longer before the online release (not that I ever indulged, I was happy to wait a bit longer and save my money!). As compromises go, I'm fairly happy with that one. Sometimes perfect is the enemy of good :)
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My mum and dad got married in June 1940, were single women more likely to be posted anywhere than married women?
And secondly, before computers were invented, what system of sorting and tabulating the data would be used?
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I don't know very much about conscription, but I can help you with the way the National Register was maintained. The master registers were held nationally, and updated manually. These were the original 1939 Register, and separate registers for people who arrived after the 1939 Register, or were born later, registered late for any reason, or were demobilised from the forces. Each local National Registration Office (NRO) had a card index, compiled initially from the household schedules of the 1939 Register, with new cards created for new births, new arrivals etc. They recorded changes of address within the district, and if someone moved between districts, the new district created a new card for them, and notified the old district who removed their card to a 'Dead File'. The National Register was only notified of the move between districts, not the actual address. Changes of name were recorded in both national and local registers, and when a death was notified the card was also removed to the Dead File and the National Register was notified. Lots of cards, forms and record sheets, lots of people. That's the short version, but I think it covers the gist of it!
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And secondly, before computers were invented, what system of sorting and tabulating the data would be used?
From 1911 censuses were processed by punched cards on the Hollerith tabulating machine.
A computer was used for the first time to process the census results in 1961.
Stan
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I'm sure you are right, but 'each request for 1911 census information must be treated separately on its merits.' sounds like a bit of a tall order. If they had gone through every schedule with a disability on it and weighed up each one individually first I think we'd have been stuck with the expensive one-off searches for even longer before the online release (not that I ever indulged, I was happy to wait a bit longer and save my money!). As compromises go, I'm fairly happy with that one. Sometimes perfect is the enemy of good :)
All the FoI requests for information from the 1911 after the ICs decision were processed at a cost of £45 until it became available online it would not have cost anymore for them to make a decision on whether certain information was sensitive or not rather than institute what amounted to an unlawful redaction of the entire column.
In doing that the GRO opened themselves to the risk of someone making a claim against them.
The people who did pay their £45 just accepted the situation as did the family historian who chose not to make a stand and fight for their rights.
When the data was digitised it would have been a simple task to analyse that column digitally and allow or redact sensitive data if the will was there.
The point is they took the path of least resistance rather than the best option.
Cheers
Guy
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I agree it it would have been easy enough to make a decision on each one in the case of the £45 manual searches, it was the scale of the task of identifying and making a decision on every single one in the whole census that I believe would have slowed up the whole digitisation process; even if they were all identified by digital means surely it would still need a human to make a decision on each one. And if only the 'sensitive' details were redacted, it would be all the more obvious that there was something potentially embarrassing under the white panel. All a bit silly, I know, because it wasn't going to stop being sensitive overnight in January 2012, and it would have been much better to have the whole thing open at once, but an early release with some restrictions looked pretty good to anyone waiting for the Scottish 1911 census - but at least it meant there was still something to look forward to in 2011!
BTW I don't understand what you mean by the GRO opening themselves to someone making a claim against them - can you explain? Thanks
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I agree it it would have been easy enough to make a decision on each one in the case of the £45 manual searches, it was the scale of the task of identifying and making a decision on every single one in the whole census that I believe would have slowed up the whole digitisation process; even if they were all identified by digital means surely it would still need a human to make a decision on each one. And if only the 'sensitive' details were redacted, it would be all the more obvious that there was something potentially embarrassing under the white panel. All a bit silly, I know, because it wasn't going to stop being sensitive overnight in January 2012, and it would have been much better to have the whole thing open at once, but an early release with some restrictions looked pretty good to anyone waiting for the Scottish 1911 census - but at least it meant there was still something to look forward to in 2011!
BTW I don't understand what you mean by the GRO opening themselves to someone making a claim against them - can you explain? Thanks
It is quite simple the IC's ruling is classed as a legal ruling and if the GRO does not comply they leave themselves open to a charge of contempt of court.
The IC ruled that they must look at each case individually but instead they flouted the law as they had done originally when they refused access to the census.
Legally the duty of confidence does not end after 100years has passed that is a purely arbitrary figure that has no standing in law. It has already been accepted that the personal representatives of the deceased can bring an action for breach of confidence.
The IC’s ruling gave the GRO some protection against being sued; when they go against the ruling they open themselves to litigation.
Cheers
Guy
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BBC Magazine feature on this just out http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34570120
"Now individual returns in England and Wales from the register are being digitised and are expected to be released next month."
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Not saying anything new, but this from the BBC News website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34570120 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34570120)
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On the BBC Website this morning.
The findings of a one-off survey of the public from 1939 are about to be released, allowing genealogists to fill a 30-year gap in census records. What will it reveal of a country just beginning to fight a war?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34570120
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Not saying anything new, but this from the BBC News website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34570120 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34570120)
That's the same link as Shaun put up at 7am !!! ;D
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;D Oops!
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also mentioned here ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=730024.54
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Not much use to me, all my family lived in Scotland in 1939, apart from the gent in my avatar.
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Thanks for that rosie99, not had access to a Computer for a while (old one broke ~ no spare £), so there is LOADS I havn't seen. Lots of catching up to do.
Peter
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When and where can we see this my mum and dad would be over 100 now so their records should be available?
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It'll be on FindMyPast, possibly next month
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When and where can we see this my mum and dad would be over 100 now so their records should be available?
As Shaun said it will be on FindMyPast, but it isn't very clear whether it will be part of the present subscriptions or will be extra.
From what I understand anyone born after 1915 won't be visible unless you can prove that they have died. So I presume that will mean applying somewhere to get their records opened?
Topics merged.
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As Shaun said it will be on FindMyPast, but it isn't very clear whether it will be part of the present subscriptions or will be extra.
If you see my reply #43 on this thread, FindMyPast said on their Facebook page in August there would be an extra charge involved for anyone with an FindMyPast subscription. There's a screen dump of what they posted on FB. I'm hoping they've had a change of mind but suspect its unlikely. :-\
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Sorry missed that - I think the topics were merged after I posted.
It would be rather a nice gesture if they gave all their present subscribers a free trial of the 1939 Register to make up for all the times they've offered free weekends etc to nonsubscribers. I doubt if that will happen though. ;D ;D
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I agree groom that would be nice, but probably unlikely. :-\
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When and where can we see this my mum and dad would be over 100 now so their records should be available?
As Shaun said it will be on FindMyPast, but it isn't very clear whether it will be part of the present subscriptions or will be extra.
From what I understand anyone born after 1915 won't be visible unless you can prove that they have died. So I presume that will mean applying somewhere to get their records opened?
Topics merged.
What if the person is still alive and wants to view their own record?
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Sorry missed that - I think the topics were merged after I posted.
It would be rather a nice gesture if they gave all their present subscribers a free trial of the 1939 Register to make up for all the times they've offered free weekends etc to nonsubscribers. I doubt if that will happen though. ;D ;D
We could ask en masse on their FB page ;D
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Anyone who wants to see their own record will able to request a copy of it, but it will remain redacted on the website.
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It could be more use than the census as it "noted each individual’s full name, address, date of birth, sex, occupation, as well as any changes of name." So we should get exact dates of birth and maiden names.
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Maiden names? I haven't received any for my requests.
Blue
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I assumed that "change of name" would include maiden names? Perhaps it just means if you are known as another name, bit disappointing if that's the case.
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The way I understood it was that the register was updated if you married (ie changed name) or moved after the initial entry
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I thought the information was only for 29 Sep 1939.
Blue
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Shame that SoG course is full up, we don't know nuffink. ???
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Myko Clelland from FindMyPast is talking about the 1939 Register at TNA, too, don't know if there are places left. It's free, too:
http://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-1939-register-the-home-front-from-your-own-home-tickets-18667102807
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One good site to learn more about census & the National Registrationetc. is the History of Population site.
http://www.histpop.org
Not only does it give examples of schedules it also has a huge range of other documents regarding census including documents relating to the preparation of the various census; correspondence, articles in newspaper & magazines etc., etc.
In addition there are 61 pages on the National Registration, 1939 starting at
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gch/
Cheers
Guy
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Anyone who wants to see their own record will able to request a copy of it, but it will remain redacted on the website.
Thank you
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Anyone who wants to see their own record will able to request a copy of it, but it will remain redacted on the website.
Both my mother and father have since deceased. Mother was born in 1915 and my father was born in 1916. They married in June 1940. Will I be able to look them up, please? I have a rough idea where they were living in September 1939.
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According to the FindMyPast blog, the original 1939 register was updated until 1996, so as to mention changes of name and deaths.
So if your mother had already married by 1939, she wouldn't have her maiden name mentioned. If she married in 1940, she will be listed under her maiden name, and some sort of marker (extra columns?) added to give her married name. If she died before 1996, that date too should be marked up in the register.
If an entry mentions a person's death, of course, that person's details ought not to be redacted, even if they were born well after 1915.
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Does this also involve children?
And if so would evacuees be listed at there 'new' address (some were evacuated in very early Sept 1939)
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The "broadcast" specifically mentions that evacuees need to have their dates of birth recorded too. I think that ought to have been part of the paperwork which went with the children at evacuation.
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Does this also involve children?
And if so would evacuees be listed at there 'new' address (some were evacuated in very early Sept 1939)
I have my uncle's details he was evacuated to Wales. It only has his address and household for 29 Sep 1939 when he was living as an evacuee in Wales. His date of birth is included.
Blue
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According to the FindMyPast blog, the original 1939 register was updated until 1996, so as to mention changes of name and deaths.
So if your mother had already married by 1939, she wouldn't have her maiden name mentioned. If she married in 1940, she will be listed under her maiden name, and some sort of marker (extra columns?) added to give her married name. If she died before 1996, that date too should be marked up in the register.
If an entry mentions a person's death, of course, that person's details ought not to be redacted, even if they were born well after 1915.
The National Registration Act 1939 was repealed on 22 May 1952 so it would have been illegal to update it after that date.
It is probable that FindMyPast meant 1946 rather than 1996.
In a debate in the House of Commons on 21 May 1953 the following exchange took place.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gcn/
“HC Deb 21 May 1953 vol 515 cc2233-4 2233
§ 11. Lieut.-Colonel Lipton
asked the Minister of Health for what purposes national registration numbers are still required; and when the use of these numbers will be abandoned.
§ Mr. Iain Macleod
National registration has been wholly abandoned. Some numbering system, however, is necessary for purposes of the National Health Service and, for reasons of economy, this is based upon the old numbers.
§ Lieut.-Colonel Lipton
How is it possible for the Minister to say that national registration has been completely abandoned when people are required to keep, remember and make use of their national registration numbers? Is he not, in effect, still attempting to hoax the public into believing that national registration has been abandoned, whereas unless the individual remembers his national registration number he can find himself in all kinds of difficulties?
2234
§ Mr. Macleod
Oh, no. Any large scheme—for example, the National Health Insurance scheme before the Health Service was introduced—is bound to be based upon a system of numbers. We have used the same system of numbers, but national registration, happily, does not exist any more, and as a consequence a lot of staff and a great deal of money have been saved.
§ Lieut.-Colonel Lipton
We have to have a number?
§ Mr. Macleod
Of course. ”
Cheers
Guy
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The blog post mentions expecting to see the name her auntie took when she married in 1960.
It may have been illegal to update the register, but we all know that there is something of inertia when it comes to bureaucracy, and as your snippet says, the documents were also used for other purposes after the war.
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National Registration ended in 1952, but the 1939 Register volumes (and the other registers created shortly afterwards) were retained as the basis for the NHS Register. They continued to be updated until 1996 when the manual system was discontinued and the NHS Register was computerised.
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National Registration ended in 1952, but the 1939 Register volumes (and the other registers created shortly afterwards) were retained as the basis for the NHS Register. They continued to be updated until 1996 when the manual system was discontinued and the NHS Register was computerised.
No the National Register was not retained as the basis of the NHS Register; The National Register numbering system was used as the basis of the NHS Register but the National Register was not updated after 1951.
The National Register which is what Findmypast is releasing is not the same as the NHS Register (it could not be released if it was) and should not be confused with the NHS Register.
Cheers
Guy
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In 1999 the Office for National Statistics celebrated 60 Years of the Central Register, and produced an anniversary publication. The introduction reads 'Record Holders for Sixty Years: Introduction - Since 1948 the Central Register maintained at Smedley Hydro, Southport, has been linked inextricably with the National Health Service and the need to provide every one of its members with a unique identifier. It is perhaps less well remembered that the Central Register had been in operation for almost nine years prior to the setting up of the NHS and that the 29th September represents its 60th birthday'. The term 'Central Register' is the collective term for what we are now calling the 1939 Register, and the other central registers created for National Registration, held in Southport. From 1948 to 1952 the same books were used for both National Registration and NHS purposes, and from 1952 until the 1990s for NHS only. Until the NHS index was finally computerised the books were updated manually, as Findmypast have correctly statedd, changes of name were recorded, as were deaths - and many other pieces of information that the NHS noted, but which cannot be released. Findmypast have digitised the 1939 enumeration pages which can be released (with redactions until 100 years after the recorded date of birth of the youngest person in it). It would have made no sense to create a duplicate register containing more than 40 million entries, and then maintain two registers in parallel, which is why it didn't happen.
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Ive noticed various changes to FindMyPast and it seems to be rather slow. Maybe we will get some news today? I'm not sure how helpful it will be for my research, but I'm hoping for a few unanswered questions to be answered!
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So you are claiming that Mr. Macleod (the Minister of Health) intentionally lied to Parliament on 21 May 1953 when he claimed -
“National registration has been wholly abandoned. Some numbering system, however, is necessary for purposes of the National Health Service and, for reasons of economy, this is based upon the old numbers”
He then further expanded his answer with the following answer in reply to another question
“Oh, no. Any large scheme—for example, the National Health Insurance scheme before the Health Service was introduced—is bound to be based upon a system of numbers. We have used the same system of numbers, but national registration, happily, does not exist any more, and as a consequence a lot of staff and a great deal of money have been saved.”
These were not slips of the tongue but direct unequivocal answers to direct questions
The complete exchange was as follows -
Ҥ Lieut.-Colonel Lipton
asked the Minister of Health for what purposes national registration numbers are still required; and when the use of these numbers will be abandoned.
§ Mr. Iain Macleod
National registration has been wholly abandoned. Some numbering system, however, is necessary for purposes of the National Health Service and, for reasons of economy, this is based upon the old numbers.
§ Lieut.-Colonel Lipton
How is it possible for the Minister to say that national registration has been completely abandoned when people are required to keep, remember and make use of their national registration numbers? Is he not, in effect, still attempting to hoax the public into believing that national registration has been abandoned, whereas unless the individual remembers his national registration number he can find himself in all kinds of difficulties?
§ Mr. Macleod
Oh, no. Any large scheme—for example, the National Health Insurance scheme before the Health Service was introduced—is bound to be based upon a system of numbers. We have used the same system of numbers, but national registration, happily, does not exist any more, and as a consequence a lot of staff and a great deal of money have been saved.
§ Lieut.-Colonel Lipton
We have to have a number?
§ Mr. Macleod
Of course. ”
Further as I stated earlier the National Registration Act 1939 was repealed on 22 May 1952 so it would have been illegal to update the National Register after that date.
A fact that the Information Commissioner took into consideration when he was considering my submissions
If the NHS were aware that the National Register was still being used today they could have used that fact to block my attempt to have it released.
The 1939 National Registration and the NHS Central Register are two distinct and separate datasets
Cheers
Guy
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So you are claiming that Mr. Macleod (the Minister of Health) intentionally lied to Parliament on 21 May 1953
He was a politician! Of course he lied! ;D ;D
"How can you tell when a politician is lying? His lips are moving!"
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If it is the case that successive politicians have been lying about the 1939 National Registration it is about time something was done to rectify the situation.
It was not just in 1953 (HC Deb 21 May 1953 vol 515 cc2233-4 which I quoted previously) that MPs claimed the National Register was no longer in use
HC Deb 04 April 1955 vol 539 cc823-4
“Mr. Hynd
I am not asking about National Health Service numbers. I am asking about the national registration numbers which are asked for when application is made for service under the National Health Scheme. Is it not ridiculous that people should still be asked for the national registration numbers, which most of them do not know? Does the hon. Lady know her own national registration number?
§ Miss Hornsby-Smith
CMBR 53/1. I think the hon. Gentleman will recognise that no sizeable registration scheme with so many people bearing the same name could possibly be carried out without some method using numbers. In the case of the National Health Service, it was obviously the better solution to take the national registration numbers, which were available and were known to most people, who had borne them for 10 years, rather than institute an entirely new Health Service scheme.
snip
Miss Hornsby-Smith
If the hon. Gentleman will cast his mind back, he will remember that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House most emphatically in this House enjoined people when the national identity card system came to an end that the numbers would apply to the National Health Service.
§ Mr. H. Morrison
Can the hon. Lady really deal with this? Was it not the case that the country was given the impression that it was a great act of virtue on the part of the Government to abolish the national registration numbers, that it was, so to speak, an act of setting the people free, but is it not the case now that we are told that people should not have been set free and that they should remember their registration numbers? Are they not now landed with two numbers, the registration number and the National Health number, and will they not get into a state of confusion?
§ Miss Hornsby-Smith
The right hon. Gentleman—it is unusual for him, I must confess—is more than ever confused about this matter. It was due to the practical application of common sense by this Government that, instead of instituting a new series of registration numbers for the National Health Service, we applied the national registration numbers.
HC Deb 09 March 1956 vol 549 c231W 231W
§ Mr. Neal
asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the compulsory use of the now obsolete National Registration identity card numbers in connection with claims for dental treatment: and if he will substitute a more appropriate code occasioning less inconvenience to the dentists and the general public.
§ Mr. Turton
When the abolition of National Registration was announced on the 21st February, 1952, it was explained in this House that National Registration numbers were being taken over as National Health Service numbers as a matter of convenience in order to save the labour and expense of introducing an alternative code."
As can be seen parliament was time and again over many years told that only the National Registration numbers were being used by the National Health Service and that the National Registration has been abolished.
I could go on but why bother, it should be online next month.
Cheers
Guy
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A email just dropped into my inbox with the date:
Monday 2nd November
And the price :
Records will be available to purchase for £6.95 per household or £24.95 for our 5 household bundle (£4.99 per household).
:-\
I'm being promised a coupon for 25% off the 5 household bundle for being a subscriber and a 10% off coupon for having signed up for the email early.
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According to the same email, if you are an existing subscriber they will send you an extra email with a code for 25% off the five household bundle.
I appreciate its much cheaper than the previous fee and I suppose its just like the launch of the 1911 Census, but I think I shall be waiting until the prices drop or a subscription option is added, which I suspect will happen at some point. :-[
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I can't work out if it's one coupon for one bundle or if the discount will apply as many times as you want. I'd like to get all my grandparents and great grandparents (and one great great who was still alive). Anyone else will have to wait.
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I'm pleased we finally have a release date, but a bit :o at the price! If I just wanted to look up just my direct ancestors on the 1939 that involves checking 14 different households, I just counted. Looks like it will end up being quite costly!
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According to the same email, if you are an existing subscriber they will send you an extra email with a code for 25% off the five household bundle.
My email only mentions the 10% off and I'm a subscriber. I'm not sure how worthwhile this is going to be , given that individuals born less than 100 years ago cannot be viewed. It would be very annoying to pay for a record and find most of it redacted !
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I can't work out if it's one coupon for one bundle or if the discount will apply as many times as you want. I'd like to get all my grandparents and great grandparents (and one great great who was still alive). Anyone else will have to wait.
Yes I was wondering that too. I suspect it'll turn out to be able to be used just once, although it may be that you can purchase more than one bundle at a time, but that would become very expensive.
The prices are those they charge for pay as you go credits. I've some left which would mean I could view two households, but I've been using them to obtain copies of NSW Wills when I come across them. Not sure I want to use them all up on the 1939 Register, although I would like to get my Great Uncle's because he's the only one my grandmother didn't have a note of the birthdate for and I suppose its cheaper than getting his certificate. Unfortunately he died well before the time they started entering birth dates on the death index.
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According to the same email, if you are an existing subscriber they will send you an extra email with a code for 25% off the five household bundle.
My email only mentions the 10% off and I'm a subscriber. I'm not sure how worthwhile this is going to be , given that individuals born less than 100 years ago cannot be viewed. It would be very annoying to pay for a record and find most of it redacted !
I've now had two emails, one mentions 10% off and the other 25%. I think the 10% email is for those who signed up to be notified and the other is going to FindMyPast subscribers, although I stand corrected but it may just be a lag in emails being sent.
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I am glad it is finally coming out, though 7 pounds per household is quite expensive, slightly cheaper than getting hold of certificates from the GRO.
I wasn't expecting them to charge us per household, I wonder if they have photographs of ancestors since they were put into the registration cards?
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I am glad it is finally coming out, though 7 pounds per household is quite expensive, slightly cheaper than getting hold of certificates from the GRO.
I wasn't expecting them to charge us per household, I wonder if they have photographs of ancestors since they were put into the registration cards?
Additional information is supplied such as-
"Maps will demonstrate how local areas have changed, never-before-online photos related to the individual’s life will add context to their record, we’ll use the numbers in the Register to show a breakdown of the local area, and local and national newspapers will bring 1939 to life like never before."
Note "never-before-online photos related to the individual’s life will add context to their record" that does not necessarily mean they will be giving a photo of the person themself and will probably mean photos of life in the 1930s
Cheers
Guy
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sounds good
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Personally, I think they've got a bloody cheek. I have a worldwide subscription to FindMyPast and now they're sending me junk mail telling me that I can have more information if I pay extra for it. What will they start to charge their "all in" subscribers for next?
I'll not be buying the info and neither will I be renewing my subscription when its due.
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Like others, I'm glad we've got a date, but shocked at the price as it's per household. At that price it certainly won't be for idle browsing out of curiosity but will just be for trying to break down a brick wall. Although I have a subscription I also have some credits left over from various offers, I wonder if I will be able to use those? I think I would have preferred a set price to view the records for a year.
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Well I've had 2 emails one as a subscriber and one as an early sign up. Both offer me 10% discounts. Where's my 25% off?
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Perhaps the amount of the discount is tied to how long we have been subscribers. It would not be fair to long term subscribers to give 25% discount to all the pound a month folk.
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I've been offered 25% and 10%, I hope they can be combined i.e. 35% off?
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I've still only had the one email mentioning a 10% discount - absolutely typical of FindMyPast to be inconsistent in the way they treat their customers !
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I have been offered 10% by find my past uk (I was a subscriber in the past) and 25% by find my past.com ( I am a current subscriber)
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"So you are claiming that Mr. Macleod (the Minister of Health) intentionally lied to Parliament on 21 May 1953 when he claimed - ..."
I don't have any insights into Mr Macleod's thought processes (although 'economical with the truth' is always a very useful phrase! ;D ) It does strike me, though, that once there was no such thing as National Registration there was no such thing as a National Register. There was just a very useful collection of books which were already being used for another purpose ie the 'Central Register'. As far as I can see he didn't mention anything about the physical register books in this extract. However, I can assure you that the 1939 enumeration books used to be housed in the ballroom at Smedley Hydro with the other register books. They were annotated and updated by hand from 1939 onwards, until the system was finally computerised and the books were no longer needed. Then the ballroom was happily restored to its former glory - it did not look at its best when it was full of metal bookshelves.
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Perhaps the amount of the discount is tied to how long we have been subscribers. It would not be fair to long term subscribers to give 25% discount to all the pound a month folk.
I think that's perfectly fair.
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I have subscribed to FindMyPast for years, signed up for emails but have heard nothing from them let alone get any offers of discount.
I have loads of credits but bet it won't be possible to use them!
I was expecting an additional annual fee which, in fact, may have raised them just as much in the long run.
Selina
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I have loads of credits but bet it won't be possible to use them!
FindMyPast, on their Facebook page in response to the same question, have said anyone with credits can use them.
I was expecting an additional annual fee which, in fact, may have raised them just as much in the long run.
Selina
I was thinking the same. It wouldn't surprise me that they will have to reconsider their pricing structure in the not too distant future, but only time will tell.
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Well I've had 2 emails one as a subscriber and one as an early sign up. Both offer me 10% discounts. Where's my 25% off?
Me too 10% as a subscriber but to be fair I only rejoined for monthly payments in July and/or 10% off as a new signer to the 1939 Register blog.........
There are some VERY unhappy customers on the FB page. >:(
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Great news!
The 1939 Register we be up and running on the 2nd November!
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/announcing-the-release-of-the-1939-register-1424355718.html
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Thanks for the credits information smudwhisk. I should have enough to cover most of the entries that come to mind at present, I don't have that many that I actually 'need' but I would have paid a reasonable annual fee to have access as and when it took my fancy.
I am not on FB and forget about looking on there, expect I can read much of what they say.
Selina
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Thanks for the credits information smudwhisk. I should have enough to cover most of the entries that come to mind at present, I don't have that many that I actually 'need' but I would have paid a reasonable annual fee to have access as and when it took my fancy.
I've about 130 credits remaining, I had a lot more until the New South Wales Probates were released as I've used quite a few of them to download some Wills as I only have a Britain subscription. I don't see any need for FindMyPast Worldwide as I've Ancestry Worldwide and they have better coverage. To be honest, like you, there aren't many I need, although I'm hoping I may be able to make some progress on my grandfathers "adoptive" brother as only have a name and birthdate at present. I thought I had obtained the correct birth certificate but the birth year is out compared to his School Admission Record (and it was the only one in the correct area and the day and month of the birthdate are the same) so I'm hoping, unless I'm unlucky and he died before Sept 1939, to see if I can use it to find more information. Considering my grandfather was one of seven children, its surprising my great grandparents took on another child who, on the face of it, doesn't appear to be related to them and wasn't born in the same area.
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Very disappointed to discover about the charges, I had been eagerly awaiting the release of the register for ages, feel incredibly let down by FindMyPast, surely it is similar data to censuses which are viewable under your main subscription fee... >:(
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I've had two emails, one from FindMyPast, one from GR, both offering 10% off a bundle of 5 households. As a subscriber to both I too am very disappointed at the charges and very poor discount to loyal subscribers. I'm not surprised that there are a lot of unhappy (and quite frankly p****d off) people out there. >:(
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I suppose one upside is that the website is unlikely to crash on Monday...
Looking at my direct lines, I see I'm only interested in 6 households and I'm unlikely to find much new from my maternal grandparents given that my Mum and aunt are still around
Being selective is the order of the day, I think
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Here's the official bit about credits from FindMyPast
"The 1939 Register works on a credits payment system, which you’ll need in your account before you can unlock a household or institution. 60 credits = 1 household."
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I doubt this exclusive package will be available in libraries. I had hoped it would be inclusive so it could be accessed free in those libraries with free FindMyPast.
Blue
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Well, as it has been said, the charges are disappointing; however, I am not surprised! :P
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Looking at their annual results, I am not surprised they are charging for this - people are laying bets FindMyPast will be bought out soon as their net worth and turnover has plummeted since they brought in the new site. people are even suggesting you do not purchase annual subscriptions in the near future because of it!
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Looking at their annual results, I am not surprised they are charging for this - people are laying bets FindMyPast will be bought out soon as their net worth and turnover has plummeted since they brought in the new site. people are even suggesting you do not purchase annual subscriptions in the near future because of it!
Out of interest where are the sources for your above statements.
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I've received three emails about this launch: One each from Findmypast, The 1939 Register, and the British Newspaper Archive.
As a subscriber, Findmypast is offering 25% discount, and "The 1939 Register" is offering 10% to me "as an early subscriber."
Apart from the finer details of currency and discount, all of the emails are exactly the same, but I think this is the gist of the discounts.
I'm a World Annual subscriber, so perhaps for those that subscribe on a different plan, the discounts will differ.
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I haven't received any e-mail though I remember signing up to be kept informed. My first thought about the charges was "will it be free at libraries" - is there any information about that.
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Locksmith
I actually got it from another trail on this site
the trail - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=733662.msg5791369#msg5791369
the links posted on that were...
https://www.duedil.com/company/04369607/findmypast-limited
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/04369607/FINDMYPAST-LIMITED/financial-accounts
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Even as a current annual subscriber there is no way I will be paying those prices (even with the 25% discount), I currently have 520 credits to use and will use those and then will wait until they bring in monthly/yearly subscription. I remember doing the same when the 1911 census was released as sooner or later FindmyPast added it to their subscription packages which worked out better value and I have no doubt the same will happen here with this.
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From the e mail sent today
"The 1939 Register contains the names, addresses and occupations of everyone in England and Wales at the time, and was used as the basis for rationing, identity cards and, in post-war Britain, the NHS.
You’ll be able to discover unique insights into where your family was and what they were doing when the register was taken at the outbreak of World War II, and we cannot wait to make this monumental collection available to you."
But only if they're dead ! -
I won't be taking up the paltry offer of 10% discount >:( And yes, I am a long term subscriber.
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Well even with 25% discount as some people mention , it's still expensive but not compared to the original price when requested under freedom of information. I think it's a case of do not ask for a lookup as we can't afford it!
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I think it's a case of do not ask for a lookup as we can't afford it!
As the only provider is FindMyPast and they don't allow us to give details just references as to where it can be found we should not be doing it anyway.
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From the e mail sent today
"The 1939 Register contains the names, addresses and occupations of everyone in England and Wales at the time, and was used as the basis for rationing, identity cards and, in post-war Britain, the NHS.
You’ll be able to discover unique insights into where your family was and what they were doing when the register was taken at the outbreak of World War II, and we cannot wait to make this monumental collection available to you."
But only if they're dead ! -
I won't be taking up the paltry offer of 10% discount >:( And yes, I am a long term subscriber.
Small correction here.
No not "only if they're dead".
There are restrictions, thanks to Tony Blair's Labour Government about what information can be shared on living people and Findmypast like every other business in the country has to abide by those restrictions.
If you want to blame anyone blame them.
However back to the 1939 National Registration, if you furnish FindMyPast withsigned consent from the living person they will be able to reveal that person's information as well.
On the other hand if you want to challenge the law that prevents them releasing that information on the grounds that all the information contained in the 1939 National Registration is available from other sources go ahead.
I was going to in 2009 when I won the Information Commissioner's descision but decided there were other more important things to challenge such as getting access to historic BMD records without having to purchase certificates.
But please remember it costs vast sums of money to licence, digitse, transcribe, index and make these records available to the public.
If companies like FindMyPast do it, surely they have a right to try to recoupe some of that outlay in the few short years they have an exclusive contract to supply the records to the public.
Cheers
Guy
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From the e mail sent today
"The 1939 Register contains the names, addresses and occupations of everyone in England and Wales at the time, and was used as the basis for rationing, identity cards and, in post-war Britain, the NHS.
You’ll be able to discover unique insights into where your family was and what they were doing when the register was taken at the outbreak of World War II, and we cannot wait to make this monumental collection available to you."
But only if they're dead ! -
I won't be taking up the paltry offer of 10% discount >:( And yes, I am a long term subscriber.
Small correction here.
No not "only if they're dead".
There are restrictions, thanks to Tony Blair's Labour Government about what information can be shared on living people and Findmypast like every other business in the country has to abide by those restrictions.
If you want to blame anyone blame them.
However back to the 1939 National Registration, if you furnish FindMyPast withsigned consent from the living person they will be able to reveal that person's information as well.
On the other hand if you want to challenge the law that prevents them releasing that information on the grounds that all the information contained in the 1939 National Registration is available from other sources go ahead.
I was going to in 2009 when I won the Information Commissioner's descision but decided there were other more important things to challenge such as getting access to historic BMD records without having to purchase certificates.
But please remember it costs vast sums of money to licence, digitse, transcribe, index and make these records available to the public.
If companies like FindMyPast do it, surely they have a right to try to recoupe some of that outlay in the few short years they have an exclusive contract to supply the records to the public.
Cheers
Guy
I and many others appreciate that Guy. But why are some being offered 10% and others 25% ?
It might have been fairer to offer say a 24 hour search for the £24.95 that way I believe more people would take up the offer. The credit system is a money spinner, you only have to see how many people, including myself have wasted credits in the past when searching.
As an aside I once had a friend who sold eggs at the farm gate, she always undercut her prices. She said she'd rather sell more eggs at a lower price than get stuck with them not selling when priced high! :D There's logic in there somewhere...
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But why are some being offered 10% and others 25% ?
As an aside I once had a friend who sold eggs at the farm gate, she always undercut her prices. She said she'd rather sell more eggs at a lower price than get stuck with them not selling when priced high! :D There's logic in there somewhere...
I only got offered 10%. I can't remember how long I've been a subscriber, but it was called 1837online when I started.
As to the eggs, unfortunately they're perishable, so your friend would have been stuck with an unsaleable commodity. 1939 register has a much longer shelf life - however long FindMyPast has exclusive rights.
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Here are my questions (and please bear with me on this) -
So I decide to pay to view my chosen household - my grandparents, Mum and her sister. My grandparents based on their dob will be over their 100 ruling. My Mum and Aunty under the 100 year rule. My Mum has passed away, my Aunty still with us. So in order to see my Mum's information included what exactly do I have prove in order to show she has passed away? It has been suggested that it would be her dc. Well what if I don't have it ( I do...but lets pretend I don't) she died in another country. So does this mean I have apply for her dc? Also, as she was married her dc will show her married name. Do I then have to supply her marriage cert & a d/c? What are FindMyPast going to do with the information that I have supplied? Will they be capturing this information and adding it to some sort of database that they can sell & profit from sometime in the future? If I can't supply certificates what else do I have to supply? How do FindMyPast verify we are supplying the correct d/c for the person details we request on the 1939 Register. IF the d/c dosent match the information on the '39 Register exactly (like dob) will they refuse to allow you access to the information? Isn't part of the reason we want access the 1939 census to find answers? How are FindMyPast going to monitor this?
Perhaps this will all become clear on Monday - but I am not happy about having to prove death and give my findings to a multinational company.
Also, do you think it will still be possible to get the 1939 details from the previous organisation? For example, but the time I have bought dc/mc, postage, include my time, any travel and whatever else I will near enough up to the original £42 and possibly get more information :-\
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I and many others appreciate that Guy. But why are some being offered 10% and others 25% ?
It might have been fairer to offer say a 24 hour search for the £24.95 that way I believe more people would take up the offer. The credit system is a money spinner, you only have to see how many people, including myself have wasted credits in the past when searching.
As an aside I once had a friend who sold eggs at the farm gate, she always undercut her prices. She said she'd rather sell more eggs at a lower price than get stuck with them not selling when priced high! :D There's logic in there somewhere...
I don't know I got any email offering 10% as I had signed up to be informed about the progress of the 1939 but I understand subscribers to FindMyPast are being offered a 25% discount.
Apparently both groups will receive email on Monday, so there may be more information then.
As to your eggs analogy, FindMyPast have a limited exclusivity contract as they did with the 1911. In reality they have to try to recoup as much of their outlay in this time as they can because after that period the income generated will probably only cover the licence fee they have to pay the National Archives.
That is why Ancestry dropped out of the bidding for the 1911 census and did not take on the 1939 National Registration.
The costs involved are considerably more that the costs involved in keeping hens to provide eggs for market.
Cheers
Guy
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the time I have bought dc/mc, postage, include my time, any travel and whatever else I will near enough up to the original £42 and possibly get more information :-\
The thing is, you'd still have to pay £42 on top of all of your certificates if you do it the other way.
I'm disappointed about being charged extra as well, and I agree they could have been a bit more up front about it - but at £7 per household, you can view 6 households for the price of the old way, and you can get it from your own home immediately at the click of a button.
I think there's definitely a glass half full aspect that hasn't had much exposure in these 18 odd pages of posts.
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Hi sunnylew
Some years ago I was helping someone with their FH research, she was looking for her half brother. In order to find out further information we requested the 1939 Register details for the household of said half brother's Mother. She received the details for the whole household (one or two may have been alive) no redactions and no d/c provided by us.
You say £7 to view the whole household, but you might only be looking at one name (that of someone over 100 years) and all the other household members redacted! :-[
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Does anyone know how the information will be presented? FindMyPast refer to households, but I presume the search facility will be on a single name. Does that mean we get to see only the household that person resides in? The beauty of searching Census' etc is to set thefamily in context - neighbours etc. I don't think FindMyPast have much concept of what Family History means. I only renewed my sub this year with the 1939 Register in mind. In future, I won't be continuing with them
Steve
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When the 1911 Census was released I accessed at the Nat Archives for free
Will wait to see what I can do.
It's a disincentive the cost to look at many households, especially as many people edited out, e.g. my Mum's cousin, who was killed by a bomb in 1940 aged 15
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The only thing that FindMyPast are guilty of, is not making it clear sooner that a subscription would not include the register. They kept saying that details would be released, but they should have warned any new subscribers that it would not be included.
As for the price, I still remember spending a small fortune when the 1901 census came out!
Before the Internet, family history was not a hobby for all and I remember that accessing records was expensive, time consuming and difficult, especially when I was a teenager with no money!
I'm not sure what I'm going to do as I have lots of potential households on my list, but can't justify the cost.
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The current system provided by the 1939 Register Team has transcripts of households are FindMyPast going to provide transcripts or will they provide images?
Blue
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I don't know I got any email offering 10% as I had signed up to be informed about the progress of the 1939 but I understand subscribers to FindMyPast are being offered a 25% discount.
Apparently both groups will receive email on Monday, so there may be more information then.
I am a subscriber and have been for several years - will wait until Monday to see if I get another offer.
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So here's another question -
Let's suppose more than one person is requesting to view the same household, the person whose details they want to view is under 100 years. One customer provides the necessary death details. Then someone else comes along and wants to see these details. Do FindMyPast 'unlock' this person perpetually because someone has already provided details of death or does the next person ALSO have to provide proof of death?
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So here's another question -
Let's suppose more than one person is requesting to view the same household, the person whose details they want to view is under 100 years. One customer provides the necessary death details. Then someone else comes along and wants to see these details. Do FindMyPast 'unlock' this person perpetually because someone has already provided details of death or does the next person ALSO have to provide proof of death?
From my understanding of the situation FindMyPast and the GRO using "robust" records are going to be working together to try to determine which records refer to deceased people in addition individuals will have to provide copies of death certificates to prove an individual is deceased (this would be important in the case of someone who died overseas).
Once it is confirmed that a particular subject is deceased it should not need confirming again.
Cheers
Guy
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Surely the GRO deaths index would be sufficient for this? The date of birth of the deceased is included. I suppose change of surname due to marriage etc wouldn't help. What year does the index start listing birth dates?
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Surely the GRO deaths index would be sufficient for this? The date of birth of the deceased is included. I suppose change of surname due to marriage etc wouldn't help. What year does the index start listing birth dates?
Birth dates are listed from 1969,but using the GRO deaths index wouldn't help in the example given by californian dreaming as his mum died abroad.
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Surely the GRO deaths index would be sufficient for this? The date of birth of the deceased is included. I suppose change of surname due to marriage etc wouldn't help. What year does the index start listing birth dates?
Unfortunately no not always, they would have to link the person to the correct death certificate, but records such as the NHS Central Register and the National Insurance database etc. do exist and are accessible for certain companies to check to ascertain that an individual is deceased. This is to help prevent fraud, ID theft etc. I don't know exactly what records would be used but there are databases available that may be checked (at a price).
Cheers
Guy
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That's true, and all those who died before 1969.
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The original price of £24.95 for 5 households still seems a bit steep, but if it is true that there will be a 25% discount for existing subscribers, that brings the price down to £18.72, only £3.75 per household. Perhaps not too bad for a selection of 5 out of 7 of my and my husband's direct ancestors. Don't know enough about the process for seeing redacted records yet on production of death certificates, so may not see my parents' records for a few years, but it will be a start.
Margaret
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I've received a reply about the process for opening up the records for those under 100 years old.
"Thank you for your email regarding haing a record opened.
As part of your 12-month subscription, you are able to take advantage of our free evidence of death checking service via an online form. You need to be signed in and complete a form to request an officially closed record to be opened. We have a dedicated evidence-checking team to review all requests. We aim to process all requests and send confirmation of the outcome within 10 working days, starting the day after being submitted.
You will need to conduct a search for that person on the site to find the record. This is likely to include the name and address within the register, date of birth and occupation, as well as household schedule numbers.
You need to prove that the individual listed in the records is deceased in order to submit your request to us and for that the record to be opened. We can only accept a copy of an official death certificate (issued by the General Register Office or overseas equivalent) so please ensure you have this documentation before proceeding.
The only suitable form of evidence is an official death certificate (files supported: .jpg, .png, .gif). If we do not receive this valid proof of death, we will be unable to proceed with a search.
If the death occurred abroad, then you will be required to scan and send a copy of the death certificate provided by that country.
This will need to be the equivalent of a GRO certificate in England & Wales therefore must be the fully certified information. A scanned copy is acceptable as opposed to the original and this must contain all required information.
You are welcome to provide additional information such as siblings, occupation, evacuee or any other relevant information that may help us to search the data.
You will also be required to provide your contact details in order that we can get in touch with you to confirm the status of your request and to request more information if required
Once an officially closed record has been opened up, it is available to view immediately."
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Hi sunnylew,
Thanks for posting this reply. It is v. helpful to understand the system FindMyPast will be using. I still don't like the idea of having to supply (for example) the d/c of my Mum. I know they make it sound very easy but often locating the correct d/c of someone (even here in the UK) is quite tricky.
Hopefully when they say they will open up the record immediately, they mean for anyone (as Guy suggests).
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The original price of £24.95 for 5 households still seems a bit steep, but if it is true that there will be a 25% discount for existing subscribers, that brings the price down to £18.72, only £3.75 per household. Perhaps not too bad for a selection of 5 out of 7 of my and my husband's direct ancestors. Don't know enough about the process for seeing redacted records yet on production of death certificates, so may not see my parents' records for a few years, but it will be a start.
Margaret
Are your parents still alive or are they deceased?
If alive you can ask them to sign an authorisation allowing you to access their information as allowed under the data protection Act 1998
If deceased you could send their death certificates to gain access.
Cheers
Guy
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Interesting, sunnylew.
Seems easier than I thought it would be. So I'll be able to send off death certificate scans to get my parent's records, but not aunts' and uncles' (not forking out £9.25 for their certs).
Why haven't they put this on the 1939 site, I wonder?
Margaret
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I am having trouble understanding why people would want their parents records,surely on the whole we know their dates of births ,marital status and most of the time their parents or siblings?
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I am having trouble understanding why people would want their parents records,surely on the whole we know their dates of births ,marital status and most of the time their parents or siblings?
Some people aren't that lucky! Not everyone comes from a conventional background. I know if my parents were on it, I'd want to see it.
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So, if you want to check on slightly more distant relatives it could be quite expensive as you will need to get a death certificate as well as pay to see the records. Then of course if you wanted to see the 1939 to break down a brick wall for someone born after 1915, unless you can find a death, you won't be able to see it.
Will it be a "rolling record" i.e. will people born in 1915 and 1916 be available to see in 2016 and 2017. or is it taken from when the records were released next week?
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Guy - my parents have both died, one in 1971, the other in 2013. I already have their death certificates, so will be able to see their full details.
carol8353 - I know my parent's dates of birth, but they were both of working age in 1939, would be interesting to see their occupations in 1939 and where they were living. They may prove not to be where I am expecting them to be.
Margaret
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So, if you want to check on slightly more distant relatives it could be quite expensive as you will need to get a death certificate as well as pay to see the records. Then of course if you wanted to see the 1939 to break down a brick wall for someone born after 1915, unless you can find a death, you won't be able to see it.
Will it be a "rolling record" i.e. will people born in 1915 and 1916 be available to see in 2016 and 2017. or is it taken from when the records were released next week?
Weren't the records updated until 1952 - so if they died before then, they will be known deceased and available for inspection?
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I think it will be a rolling release of records. At least, I don't think it should be an issue for them to do it.
The FAQ says:
"we have developed new methods of automatically closing the records of those people who are living and younger than 100 years and one day."
I would imagine if it's automatically closing the records, it will be able to automatically open them.
Why haven't they put this on the 1939 site, I wonder?
The email they sent me seems to almost be a copy and paste job - it sort of repeats itself here and there and has an odd flow to it - just my opinion :)
It doesn't feel like a prepared email for these requests, so I think they're still a bit behind the eight ball in getting things set up.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed that "Findmypast Friday" quietly didn't happen last week (though the electoral registers are more than enough to tide me over), the blogs have been revamped so that you can't actually view them chronologically anymore as far as I can see, and there's a new "latest news" box that has had the same news about the electoral registers being uploaded 1 minute ago for a week or so.
I reckon it's all hands on deck trying to get things all together.
On October the 1st, "Findmypast First" advertised a webcast slated for 3pm GMT on October 30. It promised:
"We'll be taking you on a journey through an exciting new record set released later this month."
Unless they meant the electoral records, I'm guessing the register was due for the weekend (which was still "this month") but ran behind. Monday is an odd day to release something that many people won't be able to access until after work.
This should be an interesting watch, though it's 4am Australia time, so I hope they upload the webcast somewhere afterwards.
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One of the records I got from the 1939 Register Team was for my uncle, an evacuee in Wales, who was born in 1933 and died in 2004. I didn't have to provide proof of death.
Blue
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Charges will be waived for visitors viewing the 1939 Register at TNA in reading rooms once the Register goes live on 2 November, see comment on 28 Oct at 2:23pm:-
http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/1939-register-census-census/
Blue
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Interesting, sunnylew.
Seems easier than I thought it would be. So I'll be able to send off death certificate scans to get my parent's records, but not aunts' and uncles' (not forking out £9.25 for their certs).
Why haven't they put this on the 1939 site, I wonder?
Margaret
From what I understand more information will be added to the website on/by Monday when the 1939 National Registration goes live.
There will also be FindMyPast staff updating the records as each person on the database reaches the 100 years and one day cut-off point required.
Why do people want to see their parents details, various reasons. Some like to have as much information as possible, some may have lost their parents early in life some might want to confirm details.
Not all family life is straightforward.
Cheers
Guy
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Charges will be waived for visitors viewing the 1939 Register at TNA in reading rooms once the Register goes live on 2 November, see comment on 28 Oct at 2:23pm:-
http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/1939-register-census-census/
Blue
Ahh Excellent, that will be my initial approach then
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If I supply a death certificate for an individual that I wamt to view the record for, how will FindMyPast verify it is the correct individual on the 1939 register?
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LizzieL, I would think that they would evaluate the supplied certificate much in the same way we do, but we have additional knowledge in most cases. Interesting to see if any get rejected!
Margaret
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I'm away from home at the moment, so can't check, but do death certificates after 1915 also have the date of birth on them? If so, as I believe the actual date of birth is on the 1939, it wouldn't be too hard to cross reference. Will certificates have to be sent by post to FindMyPast, and if so will they be returned? You can imagine the complaints when they get lost!
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If I supply a death certificate for an individual that I wamt to view the record for, how will FindMyPast verify it is the correct individual on the 1939 register?
Since September 2008 Pension funds, banks and mortgage companies have been able to access the data from the General Records Office to ensure families are not claiming money on behalf of a dead relative. This allows pension companies for example to carry out mortality checks the ensure people are not still claiming pensions due to their deceased relatives.
There are various databases available which may be used, though access is limited and whether FindMyPast will be able to use all of them or any of them I cannot say.
This is a problem that will diminish as the years go by as from 1969 death certificates also record the date and place of birth of the deceased and, if applicable, the maiden name of a woman.
Cheers
Guy
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I am feeling a bit dim and overwhelmed by all the opinion, advice and information in this thread ???
All my family I would like to see in 1939 were safely born before 1915, and are all deceased.
Does this mean I do not have to send death certs.?
I have had 3 e-mails. 2 offer 10% discount, one offers 25% and sends me to Findmypast ie where the costs are in euros ::)
Kooky
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I'm away from home at the moment, so can't check, but do death certificates after 1915 also have the date of birth on them? If so, as I believe the actual date of birth is on the 1939, it wouldn't be too hard to cross reference. Will certificates have to be sent by post to FindMyPast, and if so will they be returned? You can imagine the complaints when they get lost!
Only those deaths certs after 1969 show a date of birth (if the informant knew it) any before that date would have an age on it.
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The email they sent me said digital images would be fine.
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Only those deaths certs after 1969 show a date of birth (if the informant knew it) any before that date would have an age on it.
"If the informant knew it".. this is where the problem might arise. When I registered my mother's death several years ago, I very nearly got the dob wrong - right day and month but wrong year. How many informants not so closely related have got it wrong, but believed they were right.
And if the registration in 1939 was informant driven (rather than the individual having to produce their birth certificate), how many dobs might be recorded incorrectly, either deliberately or through ignorance of the correct date.
My grandmother celebrated her birthday on the incorrect day (3 days different from that on her birth certificate) for as long as my father and his siblings could remember. It was a surprise to her when in her nineties and she needed to get a copy of her birth cert, that she had been wrong all her life. So she certainly would accidentally have given incorrect information in 1939. As she was born over a hundred years ago her record would be open, but there must be many younger people in the same situation.
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Only those deaths certs after 1969 show a date of birth (if the informant knew it) any before that date would have an age on it.
"If the informant knew it".. this is where the problem might arise. When I registered my mother's death several years ago, I very nearly got the dob wrong - right day and month but wrong year. How many informants not so closely related have got it wrong, but believed they were right.
When my mother in law died,we registered her death here,but her sister in Ireland had all the funeral service booklets printed. Because she died in 1997 and her sister knew she had been born in 1917 (they year after her) she said that mum was 80........she died in Feb and her birthday was in August,so a long way off being 80.
If people are very upset at the death,it's hard to think straight when registering death details and can so easily get it wrong.
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Slightly off topic, but still to do with getting birth dates wrong. I know someone who had the word "Mum" tattooed on their arm, together with a rose and the dates of birth and death. However, when they proudly showed it off to their family, they were told by their sister that they had the date of birth wrong by a year. Luckily the tattooist was able to change it.
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The current system run by the 1939 Register Team gives you the full details of the household but excludes any living people. The deceased include people born after 1915. From what I can gather from this thread a person born after 1915 who is now deceased will be redacted is this the case for FindMyPast's 1939 Register? What if a previously unknown member of a household is redacted how do we know that we need to get a death certificate for them if we don't know they're there?
Blue
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Quite!
Kooky :P
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I'm confused now!
Will it show the names of ALL the people living in the house in 1939 but then go on to show full details of just those born after 1915? Or will it only show the names of those born before 1915? If the latter is the case, that means it will show my grandparents living with just one child when in fact they had 6.
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I'm confused now!
Will it show the names of ALL the people living in the house in 1939 but then go on to show full details of just those born after 1915? Or will it only show the names of those born before 1915? If the latter is the case, that means it will show my grandparents living with just one child when in fact they had 6.
I think we're all a bit confused. It would have been nice if FindMyPast could have given an example of what we might expect to see. I would hope we get all the names at least.
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If you look on the FindMyPast website there is an indication of what you will see from the initial search BEFORE you pay your money to view the actual details.
Preview:
"Phillips Household"
Bolton CB, Lancashire
Lily Phillips born 1898
+2 more people
+1 more person who is officially closed
and then there is a reference number
If you think you know any other person living in this household, then you could do a similar search to see if things match.
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Interesting.
Here's the link BB was telling us about:
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/how-to-search-the-1939-register-1426317472.html
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Some libraries have free access to Findmypast on their computers, will this also apply to the 1939 National register?
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No, said someone, somewhere in this thread
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I have two household details provided by the 1939 Register Team. One includes three people born after 1915 (1 born in 1921 and two in 1933) so it will be interesting to see using the search if they are open or closed records on FindMyPast.
Blue
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I have two household details provided by the 1939 Register Team. One includes three people born after 1915 (1 born in 1921 and two in 1933) so it will be interesting to see using the search if they are open or closed records on FindMyPast.
Blue
So the living weren't redacted previously when you had to pay £45 but now they will be?
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So the living weren't redacted previously when you had to pay £45 but now they will be?
I guess it was okay before as the actual 1939 NHS register were the ones giving the info for your £42.
Now we are subject to the rules of Find My Past and how they interpret them.
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I have two household details provided by the 1939 Register Team. One includes three people born after 1915 (1 born in 1921 and two in 1933) so it will be interesting to see using the search if they are open or closed records on FindMyPast.
Blue
So the living weren't redacted previously when you had to pay £45 but now they will be?
No, the three records I mentioned provided by the 1939 Register Team were for people born after 1915 who are deceased. No living person's details were provided. The issue is over how FindMyPast treat records of deceased people on the 1939 Register who were born after 1915.
Blue
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I am feeling a bit dim and overwhelmed by all the opinion, advice and information in this thread ???
All my family I would like to see in 1939 were safely born before 1915, and are all deceased.
Does this mean I do not have to send death certs.?
I have had 3 e-mails. 2 offer 10% discount, one offers 25% and sends me to Findmypast ie where the costs are in euros ::)
Kooky
As the family you mention were all born before 1915 they will all have been over 100 years and one day old by the time you apply to see them.
That means their records will be open.
Cheers
Guy
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The current system run by the 1939 Register Team gives you the full details of the household but excludes any living people. The deceased include people born after 1915. From what I can gather from this thread a person born after 1915 who is now deceased will be redacted is this the case for FindMyPast's 1939 Register? What if a previously unknown member of a household is redacted how do we know that we need to get a death certificate for them if we don't know they're there?
Blue
The Findmypast team are actively trying to reconcile that situation, in other words they are trying to locate the all the entries containing deceased persons so that those entries may be opened.
The 11 page tender information document states the following-
"The 1939 Register contains entries for c45million individuals, of which an estimated c27% must be redacted."
In other words they estimated just over a quarter of the entries may have to be redacted.
The more deceased who can be identified the more records may remain open.
Cheers
Guy
PS. I should also have added the tender document goes on to state
"The National Archives will provide Potential Suppliers with specific criteria to enable them to define and identify individuals who are deemed to be still living and must be redacted."
Guy
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Interesting.
Here's the link BB was telling us about:
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/how-to-search-the-1939-register-1426317472.html
I came back to post this but I see you've beaten me to it.
It looks as if we'll be able to extract a fair amount of information by being 'clever' with the search functions.
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Interesting.
Here's the link BB was telling us about:
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/how-to-search-the-1939-register-1426317472.html
I came back to post this but I see you've beaten me to it.
It looks as if we'll be able to extract a fair amount of information by being 'clever' with the search functions.
Yes playing with the search will be useful for both paying and non-paying researchers. It should give us a good idea of the composition of the household and the extent of the redaction of details.
Blue
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Funny that i've just read the email they sent and i thought that may be helpful. Also send me a code for 25 % and can only be used once but can apply it in advance if i want. They are hoping! They may have to send a few more codes out at least.
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Guy,
Thanks for the clarification!
Kooky
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They may have to send a few more codes out at least.
If you check your favourite cashback site you may find they already have ;)
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Interesting.
Here's the link BB was telling us about:
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/how-to-search-the-1939-register-1426317472.html
I came back to post this but I see you've beaten me to it.
It looks as if we'll be able to extract a fair amount of information by being 'clever' with the search functions.
This is an extract of an email I received. ( apparently I'm supposed to be excited)
From Monday 2nd November, it will be free to search the register and to preview the transcript that includes the person’s name, year of birth, town and county of residence. In addition, you’ll be able to see how many other people lived in the house at the time and how many of them are closed due to being younger than 100 years old and still alive.
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Info from comments on here:-
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/how-to-search-the-1939-register-1426317472.html
"We will open records upon receipt of evidence of death, in this case a death certificate. If the individual died prior to 1991 their record will have a D code next to it, and it will be open automatically"
Blue
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I got an email today with my 10% discount code for signing to be kept in touch with the news about the 1939.
In addition it shows small images of newspapers, maps etc and a partial image of a handwritten register.
However this register has different information than the transcript the NHS gave me purporting to be a transcript of a household from the 1939 National Register as it gives more information.
I am now determined to access an image for the address I requested in the FoI request to see exactly what was missing.
As this image also shows surrounding houses I now assume that when we apply for a household the image will be trimmed accordingly.
It is to say the least intriguing
Cheers
Guy
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So the living weren't redacted previously when you had to pay £45 but now they will be?
I guess it was okay before as the actual 1939 NHS register were the ones giving the info for your £42.
Now we are subject to the rules of Find My Past and how they interpret them.
No, we are not going to be subject to the rules of Findmypast and how they interpret them, we will be subject to what is legally allowed. In the old system everybody was technically redacted as there was no publically available information on people.
You applied for an address or individual. then by using records such as any 1939 Register updates or NHS records they could identify all people who were deceased and release the information on them. When a person was born or how recently they died was irrelevant.
What it looks like is going to happen from next week is that Findmypast are basically contracted to provide the service previously handled by the Government. The Information Commissioners ruling a few years ago was that only information on deceased people could be released (which begs the question as to why the cutoff is 100 years and what would happen if someone over 100 years old lodged a formal complaint). Unfortunately it is a bit unclear as to exactly who will initially be redacted, at least one response seems to suggest that if the updated 1939 National Register (possibly up to 1991) indicates a person is deceased then he/she won't be redacted but I think we have to wait until it runs live to know for certain.
Andy
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I hope I am not publishing old news but here is the latest post from Find My Past.
"I'm thrilled to announce some marvellous news: the 1939 Register will be made available online for the very first time on the 2nd of November 2015, only on Findmypast".
Who I'm is I do not know.
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Whoever I'm is they expect me to be excited :D
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I have been reading replies from FindMyPast on the various media, blogs etc. and it seems if a person has died prior to 1991 their details will be open on the 1939 register if they died after 1991 proof will/may be necessary.
The source states-
“If they died prior to 1991, their records will be open in the Register. If after 1991, a process will be in place to take death certificates as evidence of death.”
I don’t know how accurate this is but if correct should be good news to many.
Cheers
Guy
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Although I'm excited and pleased this information is available, looking at my tree last night, I realised that I don't think I will actually need it! By 1939 all my great grandparents had died and I know where my grandparents from both sides were living and their occupations. As we are quite a close family, I also know where all my aunts and uncles were, none are unaccounted for. So I don't think it will tell me anything I don't already know.
It will be interesting to see how others use it though and what they discover.
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I feel the same as Groom.I know where my grandparents were in 39 and most of my aunts and uncles.I also found addresses using the telephone books and electoral registers on Ancestry.Also addresses on BMDs.....It's a lot of work that's been done but I wonder how many are going to pay to look.
Time will tell.....can't get excited by this at all.
Ringrose
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Info from comments on here:-
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/how-to-search-the-1939-register-1426317472.html
"We will open records upon receipt of evidence of death, in this case a death certificate. If the individual died prior to 1991 their record will have a D code next to it, and it will be open automatically"
Blue
HMM
Mum's brother died in 1991 - maybe too late
It might be hard to find him as he was a bit of a loner
Not really sure it's worth it for ones like this to pay
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I have been reading replies from FindMyPast on the various media, blogs etc. and it seems if a person has died prior to 1991 their details will be open on the 1939 register if they died after 1991 proof will/may be necessary.
The source states-
“If they died prior to 1991, their records will be open in the Register. If after 1991, a process will be in place to take death certificates as evidence of death.”
I don’t know how accurate this is but if correct should be good news to many.
Cheers
Guy
Yes I posted that information from FindMyPast on this thread. It seems to be the best source at the moment the person replying to the comments is revealing additional details. This is a more detailed quote:-
"We will open records upon receipt of evidence of death, in this case a death certificate. If the individual died prior to 1991 their record will have a D code next to it, and it will be open automatically"
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/how-to-search-the-1939-register-1426317472.html
Blue
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Sorry haven't read all the posts to this thread but that is going to cost quite a bit then:
My grand parents were living at a property in our village in 1939 I am assuming that all of their children were with them
Dad - dec'd 2010 have DC
Aunty 1 - dec'd Abroad
Aunty 2 - still living
Uncle 1 - died 2013
Aunty 3 - died in the early 1980's
Aunty 4 - dec'd 2011
Aunty 5 still living
So I would theoretically need DC for 3 of my father's siblings. Of course I can be rude and unsensitive and ask my cousins or I would have to buy them so £30 at last plus the charge for the household.
On another note . I have been a long time subscriber to FindMyPast but have only received a 10% voucher - what is going on ! going to contact them now and moan about this.
EDITED - Apparently the 25% voucher are only being offered to the 12 month subscribers ...grr.
Rant over
Thank you
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On another note . I have been a long time subscriber to FindMyPast but have only received a 10% voucher - what is going on ! going to contact them now and moan about this.
Rant over
Thank you
Subscriber and no voucher at all!
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The next problem may be overload day on 2 November. If it goes as previous major genealogical sites
it takes a long time before the site calms down and is accessible.
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It is going to be awkward when it comes to death certificates. You can scan and e-mail death certificates to them but asking a relative for access to a death certificate can be awkward due to the sensitive nature of the event.
Blue
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Sorry haven't read all the posts to this thread but that is going to cost quite a bit then:
My grand parents were living at a property in our village in 1939 I am assuming that all of their children were with them
Dad - dec'd 2010 have DC
Aunty 1 - dec'd Abroad
Aunty 2 - still living
Uncle 1 - died 2013
Aunty 3 - died in the early 1980's
Aunty 4 - dec'd 2011
Aunty 5 still living
So I would theoretically need DC for 3 of my father's siblings. Of course I can be rude and unsensitive and ask my cousins or I would have to buy them so £30 at last plus the charge for the household.
On another note . I have been a long time subscriber to FindMyPast but have only received a 10% voucher - what is going on ! going to contact them now and moan about this.
Rant over
Thank you
Or instead of moaning you could contact your Aunts and ask them to write you an authorisation to access their information.
Dad - dec'd 2010 have DC : No problem you have the paperwork you need
Aunty 1 - dec'd Abroad
Aunty 2 - still living : use a letter from her to gain access
Uncle 1 - died 2013
Aunty 3 - died in the early 1980's : will probably be open for access
Aunty 4 - dec'd 2011
Aunty 5 still living : use a letter from her to gain access
You will definitely require proof for one person (Aunty 1) but might not for (Uncle 1 & Aunty 4) depending on whether FindMyPast have managed to confirm their deaths already or not.
Why is everyone being pessimistic before the database is even on line, why not wait and see what can be accessed then decide your course of action, after all you would not want to find out all but one were open to access and you were left having to apologise for your wrong assumptions, would you?
Think about it FindMyPast have been forced to redact the information by legislation Tony Blair's Labour government brought it in 1998. It is not something FindMyPast are doing because they want to buy something they have to do to comply with the law of the land.
At least they have taken the huge business risk and digitised the records, Ancesrty didn't just like Ancestry backed out of digitisng the 1911 census when they worked out how much it would cost and the restrictions they would have to comply with.
Instead they sat back and let others do the work the jumped on the bandwagon to reap the rewards when all the hard work had been done.
Cheers
Guy
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On another note . I have been a long time subscriber to FindMyPast but have only received a 10% voucher - what is going on ! going to contact them now and moan about this.
Rant over
Thank you
Subscriber and no voucher at all!
I believe the discount codes are being sent out over the weekend ready for Monday
Cheers
Guy
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I have my two codes, they arrived yesterday, offering 25% and 10% off the 5 household bundle, not off a single lookup. I'm presuming they can't be used together to get 35% off in one go?
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This does mean I may have to supply death info for rellies that died after 1991, 3 grandparents and my great gran's older half brother who died in 2006. If it is death certs they want then I may have to send off for them, although I think just a entry in the GRO indexes emailed to them would be sufficient, and of course I have their DOB's.
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According to the FindMyPast spokesperson on the blog comments only a death certificate will do. Let us know if they accept the GRO index as that will be a change in the process. I was thinking of another item. If I sent them the record provided by the 1939 Register Team in 2013 the household details include at least one person (my uncle) who died in 2004 perhaps that would be proof to open records. There's probably a lot of people with records from the old process who could help open more records without resorting to death certificates.
Blue
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I have my two codes, they arrived yesterday, offering 25% and 10% off the 5 household bundle, not off a single lookup. I'm presuming they can't be used together to get 35% off in one go?
I believe for that you could purchase 300 credits with a 25% reduction of the price and a further 300 credits with a 10% reduction of the price.
According to the FindMyPast spokesperson on the blog comments only a death certificate will do. Let us know if they accept the GRO index as that will be a change in the process. I was thinking of another item. If I sent them the record provided by the 1939 Register Team in 2013 the household details include at least one person (my uncle) who died in 2004 perhaps that would be proof to open records. There's probably a lot of people with records from the old process who could help open more records without resorting to death certificates.
Blue
You might find that entry is already open
Cheers
Guy
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My last post was maybe a bit too cryptic ;D
So here's the link to the current Quidco offer of £6 cashback when you buy 300 credits. Topcashback has the same offer.
http://www.quidco.com/findmypast/?st=findmypast&tr=4109&fn=index&fr=top&si=56336f219c99f&sv=4 (http://www.quidco.com/findmypast/?st=findmypast&tr=4109&fn=index&fr=top&si=56336f219c99f&sv=4)
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Online Guy Etchells
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2,444
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Re: 1939 National Register??
« Reply #227 on: Today at 12:26 »
Quote
Quote from: nestagj on Today at 12:02
Sorry haven't read all the posts to this thread but that is going to cost quite a bit then:
My grand parents were living at a property in our village in 1939 I am assuming that all of their children were with them
Dad - dec'd 2010 have DC
Aunty 1 - dec'd Abroad
Aunty 2 - still living
Uncle 1 - died 2013
Aunty 3 - died in the early 1980's
Aunty 4 - dec'd 2011
Aunty 5 still living
So I would theoretically need DC for 3 of my father's siblings. Of course I can be rude and unsensitive and ask my cousins or I would have to buy them so £30 at last plus the charge for the household.
On another note . I have been a long time subscriber to FindMyPast but have only received a 10% voucher - what is going on ! going to contact them now and moan about this.
Rant over
Thank you
Or instead of moaning you could contact your Aunts and ask them to write you an authorisation to access their information.
Dad - dec'd 2010 have DC : No problem you have the paperwork you need
Aunty 1 - dec'd Abroad
Aunty 2 - still living : use a letter from her to gain access
Uncle 1 - died 2013
Aunty 3 - died in the early 1980's : will probably be open for access
Aunty 4 - dec'd 2011
Aunty 5 still living : use a letter from her to gain access
You will definitely require proof for one person (Aunty 1) but might not for (Uncle 1 & Aunty 4) depending on whether FindMyPast have managed to confirm their deaths already or not.
Why is everyone being pessimistic before the database is even on line, why not wait and see what can be accessed then decide your course of action, after all you would not want to find out all but one were open to access and you were left having to apologise for your wrong assumptions, would you?
Think about it FindMyPast have been forced to redact the information by legislation Tony Blair's Labour government brought it in 1998. It is not something FindMyPast are doing because they want to buy something they have to do to comply with the law of the land.
At least they have taken the huge business risk and digitised the records, Ancesrty didn't just like Ancestry backed out of digitisng the 1911 census when they worked out how much it would cost and the restrictions they would have to comply with.
Instead they sat back and let others do the work the jumped on the bandwagon to reap the rewards when all the hard work had been done.
Cheers
Guy
I wasn't really moaning I was just pointing out that it could be quite expensive.....to be honest the cost is not an issue - recalling how much I actually paid when the census' came out and I had to buy credits !
As regards asking my Aunt's for Letter of Authorisation probably not as from previous experience it is extremely difficult to explain something like to to a very elderly relative who does not understand technology or what is already in the public record about them.
Nesta
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I got an email today with my 10% discount code for signing to be kept in touch with the news about the 1939.
In addition it shows small images of newspapers, maps etc and a partial image of a handwritten register.
However this register has different information than the transcript the NHS gave me purporting to be a transcript of a household from the 1939 National Register as it gives more information.
I am now determined to access an image for the address I requested in the FoI request to see exactly what was missing.
As this image also shows surrounding houses I now assume that when we apply for a household the image will be trimmed accordingly.
It is to say the least intriguing
Cheers
Guy
I got the same e mail and next to that very tempting looking picture it says...
Handwritten Register - View the original register document and see who lived in the surrounding houses in 1939.
It quite clearly shows house or road names and numbers, a list of people, looks like their sex, age a column I can't decipher, marital status and occupation. Now to me that says that if I pay for the register page with my family on it I will also see the neighbours. If I don't then to me that particular picture is totally mis-leading - or am I missing something here.
I can't wait for someone to take the plunge, Guy, and report back with findings :D
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I'm away for two weeks and will miss all the fun. I hope the 10% and 25% discount voucher will still be valid when I get back.
Regards panda
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I'm away for two weeks and will miss all the fun. I hope the 10% and 25% discount voucher will still be valid when I get back.
Regards panda
You can apply the code as soon as it is sent to you and it buys you 300 credits, which I presume last for as long as necessary. I've discovered I have about 180 credits left from when FindMyPast were offering them a year or so ago.
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I'm away for two weeks and will miss all the fun. I hope the 10% and 25% discount voucher will still be valid when I get back.
Regards panda
You can apply the code as soon as it is sent to you and it buys you 300 credits, which I presume last for as long as necessary. I've discovered I have about 180 credits left from when FindMyPast were offering them a year or so ago.
The credits last 90 days from the date bought but can be extended viz.
"Credits are only valid for a fixed period of time and will expire if you do not use them in that time however expired Credits, up to a maximum of 300 Credits, will be re-credited to your account if you purchase more Credits within 3 months of expiry."
I cannot see any time limit for using the discount code supplied so it may be better to not use the code until you need to replenish your credits.
Cheers
Guy
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Must be the free ones that have longer life then - just checked my account and they don't expire until 10th Oct 2016. I aquired them in April 2013, August 2013, Feb 2014.
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Thanks for the update
Regards panda
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Until today 300 credits lasted 365 days, I looked yesterday evening. Now they've changed them all to 90 days only. :-X Have found in the past that any credits would roll over when a 12 month subscription/renewal was purchased. Be interesting to see if that remains the same.
Must be the free ones that have longer life then - just checked my account and they don't expire until 10th Oct 2016. I aquired them in April 2013, August 2013, Feb 2014.
Groom, do you have a subscription that expires on that date?
Edit - I was thinking about purchasing 300 credits with the 25% discount but I may not be bothering now. The aim was to use them specifically to look at a few households but since I suppose there is the possibility they could reset the expiry on my existing credits to only 90 days, its not going to be worth bothering.
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Groom, do you have a subscription that expires on that date?
Yes, thats when the half price offer I added last year runs out. ;D
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Well... I bit the bullet yesterday, and followed the Links for my 10% discount and paid.
I then had a reply saying that the 300 Credits expire on the 24th November! (Now thats not 90 days, is it?)
Payment summary:
Package: PayAsYouGo 300
Payment: £22.46
Expiry date: 24/11/2016
Romilly ::)
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Hi
If you have the year right it is 2016 when they expire
Andy
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Well... I bit the bullet yesterday, and followed the Links for my 10% discount and paid.
I then had a reply saying that the 300 Credits expire on the 24th November! (Now thats not 90 days, is it?)
Payment summary:
Package: PayAsYouGo 300
Payment: £22.46
Expiry date: 24/11/2016
Romilly ::)
Are you a subscriber to FindMyPast, I am not a subscriber and my receipt states
Package: PayAsYouGo 300
Payment: £22.46
Expiry date: 28/01/2016
Total active credits: 300
Does 24/11/2016 coincide with your subscription date, it seems a strange date as it is not a year and not 90 days
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Well... I bit the bullet yesterday, and followed the Links for my 10% discount and paid.
I then had a reply saying that the 300 Credits expire on the 24th November! (Now thats not 90 days, is it?)
Payment summary:
Package: PayAsYouGo 300
Payment: £22.46
Expiry date: 24/11/2016
Romilly ::)
Are you a subscriber to FindMyPast, I am not a subscriber and my receipt states
Package: PayAsYouGo 300
Payment: £22.46
Expiry date: 28/01/2016
Total active credits: 300
Does 24/11/2016 coincide with your subscription date, it seems a strange date as it is not a year and not 90 days
Doh! I haven't had coffee yet this morning!
Yes, - it does say 2016!
I took advantage of the '1 month for £1.00' offer on FindMyPast to coincide with the launch of the 1939 Register. (That offer expired last Sunday btw).
I bet that the Site crashes when it goes 'live' on Monday!
Romilly.
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At the end of the day, the costs are extortionate and a profit making venture for FindMyPast. I am sure that there may be a number of pensioners who are subscribers who may not be able to afford these costs, especially if they have extensive trees. Clearly, from what I read on the FindMyPast blog, there are countless others who find it too expensive.
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At the end of the day, the costs are extortionate and a profit making venture for FindMyPast. I am sure that there may be a number of pensioners who are subscribers who may not be able to afford these costs, especially if they have extensive trees. Clearly, from what I read on the FindMyPast blog, there are countless others who find it too expensive.
What makes you think the costs are extortionate?
Have you even considered how much money, time and effort the have had to invest to digitise, transcribe, index and redact the register to get where they are today.
That's without taking into consideration the royalty they will have to pay the National Archives. In addition there are ongoing costs such as bandwidth and wages for the team who update the redacted records & check death certificates etc.
Have you considered why Ancestry did not tender for the contract?
They looked into tendering for the 1911 census but pulled out when they realised how much it would cost in man-hours & money.
These huge digitisation schemes are not only expensive but high risk.
Cheers
Guy
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We still don't know about library access. There are many libraries that provide free access to Ancestry or FindMyPast or both. This is a good way to include people put off by charges. I doubt the 1939 Register will be provided by my local library as it is being introduced as a stand alone package and such packages are often excluded from library versions of FindMyPast. I think it should be included in libraries to give as many people as possible access to this information.
Blue
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We still don't know about library access. There are many libraries that provide free access to Ancestry or FindMyPast or both. This is a good way to include people put off by charges. I doubt the 1939 Register will be provided by my local library as it is being introduced as a stand alone package and such packages are often excluded from library versions of FindMyPast. I think it should be included in libraries to give as many people as possible access to this information.
Blue
The only place to get free access it the National Archives.
It is not part of the library subscription service but you could access the 1939 from the libray computers if you have purchased credits and the library allows you to access the internet
Cheers
Guy
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Thanks Guy so FindMyPast have confirmed then that it's not available free via libraries? I was aware that TNA will have access but I was thinking about local authority access via their libraries.
Blue
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We will have to agree to disagree Guy. They didn't charge in such an elusive manner when they released the 1911 census; in this instance, they waited until the last minute to inform customers about the cost. As I said, pensioners may struggle with these costs.
This is my opinion and I stand by it as I'm sure you will yours. We shall see what unfolds with regards to the register in the coming months.
Borderslass :)
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Thanks Guy so FindMyPast have confirmed then that it's not available free via libraries? I was aware that TNA will have access but I was thinking about local authority access via their libraries.
Blue
Yes FindMyPast have confirmed in their blog answers to comments.
Borderslass, if you had not used the word extortionate I would have been more inclined to agree. The price is high for some people but in line with the costs FindMyPast has to meet.
When compared to what the NHS charged they are cheap and if I had to travel to the National Archives to view the register the cost is very cheap.
I think the problem is not so much what FindMyPast is charging but that internet research has distorted people's ideas of justified charges.
Cheers
Guy
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For anyone who has registered with "Lost Cousins" and who gets their news letter, they have negotiated with FindMyPast and have a code for a 10% discount.
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I think the problem is not so much what FindMyPast is charging but that internet research has distorted people's ideas of justified charges.
Like any business Findmypast can charge whatever they think the punters will pay. I never thought that this would be included in the subscription but I was expecting the cost to be about the same as the 1911 census was when it was new. I suspect I am not alone in this.
The 90 days time limit is a blooming cheek though. >:(
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At the end of the day, the costs are extortionate and a profit making venture for FindMyPast.
Well, there's a surprise?! ::)
FindMyPast are a commercial company, set up to make profits!
They do NOT provide a social service.
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Genealogy can be expensive. Other hobbies are available. My adult kids couldn't afford to pursue it with any vigour but I, as a pensioner, can.
Imber
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I agree MagicMirror. Additionally, I do take on board some of your constructive comments Guy. I'm of the mind that those researchers in places like Canada, Australia or America, for example, benefit as they are much more hindered by distance than we are. I appreciate your constructive debate Guy. Borderslass :)
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The current Lost Cousins newsletter answers some of the questions being posed here
http://lostcousins.com/newsletters2/specialoct15news.htm
I have access to Kew, if I take a day trip, so I think I might do a reccie in a couple of weeks time, report back and possibly offer look-ups if I can get a days worth lined up.
I doubt if the info can be downloaded to a usb stick so if look-ups are feasible, you might have to make do with a transcription.
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Will RC have the same policy as it does with the 1911 census re copyright, i.e. no asking for lookups from FindMyPast?
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I agree MagicMirror. Additionally, I do take on board some of your constructive comments Guy. I'm of the mind that those researchers in places like Canada, Australia or America, for example, benefit as they are much more hindered by distance than we are. I appreciate your constructive debate Guy. Borderslass :)
What you have to keep in mind is that the 1939 Register is different to other major databases such as the 1911 census. First of all, because about 27% of records are 'closed', all work must be done in a secure location and all people working on the Register both now and in the future require a security clearance (this is stated in the Tender Document). Also it is not just a case of digitising the records but checking who is deceased and redacting where necessary. Findmypast are also responsible for the work involved in verifying and un-redacting when necessary.
Findmypast should have clearly advised people a lot earlier that it wasn't going to be part of their subscriptions, I only saw one mention of that, on facebook a couple of months ago, although their answers when asked were vague but, given the huge costs, there was no way they could absorb it in subscriptions.
http://www.government-online.net/scanning-tender-for-national-archives/ (http://www.government-online.net/scanning-tender-for-national-archives/)
Andy
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I think for people to have expected it to be part of existing subcriptions without any increase was unrealistic considering what it must have cost FindMyPast to produce it. Perhaps once they see how much it will be used they may offer it as an extra package.
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Can anyone remember how much we had to pay to view the 1911 census when it first came out and how long it was till it was included in your annual subscription?
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Hi
I think it could be a very long time before it becomes part of a subscription or available elsewhere (other than TNA) as looking at the tender it would appear that if Findmypast took up all the options they would have exclusive rights for 30 years.
Andy
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How much time will they budget for staff to establish whether the subject person has since deceased?
And how many mistakes will be made?
Will the site crash on the first day?
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Can anyone remember how much we had to pay to view the 1911 census when it first came out and how long it was till it was included in your annual subscription?
They charged 40 credits to look up the 1911 as compared with 60 for the 1939.
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The 1911 Census on the pay per view site was 30 credits to view an original image and 10 credits to view a transcription. I think, from memory, after about 12 months it became available as an add-on to a subscription but it was about £50 extra. They subsequently reduced the prices of the subscriptions when other companies were allowed to purchase copies.
I think the issue with the pricing with the 1939 Register will depend on how much of an uptake there is at those prices and whether FindMyPast feel they need to perhaps reduce the pricing to recoup their outlay perhaps more quickly. If they do have a long exclusivity period, which it would seem they have, its unlikely to drop that early unfortunately. :-\ That said, they are a commercial company needing to make a profit, but everyone can vote with their feet so to speak and not pay the costs. It will then be down to FindMyPast to decide if they should revisit their pricing to ensure they recoup their costs and make a profit in the time period they will have chosen.
It really depends on whether you feel that the benefit of the information to your research outways the costs involved.
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The only question which I anticipate getting an answer to from this register is whether my dad was already enlisted in the Army. I think that his effective date of enlistment in RASC/EFI was 3rd September 1939. The register MAY help provide an answer.
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I'm a little confused here. Will we see the household as a snapshot of the day it was taken in 1939or will we see updates of the same household Blog on FindMyPast implies the latter.
Quote from FindMyPast:
"Also you will find out what names the people in the household have also been known by. This could include maiden names or changes by deed poll. The register itself was maintained up until 1991, so the other names could be names the people in the house were known as prior to 1939 and also up until 1991. For example, I'd expect to see my auntie who was 4 when the Register was taken, then I'd expect to see the name she took when she married in 1960. Again, usually you'd find this information out by ordering copies of birth and marriage certificates. "
see
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/what-does-the-1939-register-mean-for-family-historians-1406538193.html
My father joined the Royal Navy pre war and was in Hong Kong when war broke out, so was not with his parents and his siblings. Would he feature at all with the household of his parents and siblings, which would be his official permanent address in UK in 1939.
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From what I can understand all we will see is the register produced in 1939, and not any related registers. So people who were not in the household in 1939 would not be recorded on the register.
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One wonders if the site may (to use the American Vernacular) fly like a lead balloon. I need a few people that were born in British Colonies and returned prior to World War 2 , That's all. I very rarely use GRO now as much of the information I need is available elsewhere. Free. Its not that I am a better genealogist I just use a routine of free sites. The question is how many people need to know the birth
date of someone alive in 1939?
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Tomorrow is the big day, no doubt we will see a 2002 situation happen over again when the 1901 census was released, we may see FindMyPast crash.
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Will RC have the same policy as it does with the 1911 census re copyright, i.e. no asking for lookups from FindMyPast?
I dont know what the answer to this might be, but I wouldn't really want to give up my credits (whatever the cost) doing look-ups for someone else
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Tomorrow is the big day, no doubt we will see a 2002 situation happen over again when the 1901 census was released, we may see FindMyPast crash.
Not according to "Lost Cousins" who say on their news letter
"Findmypast's software was updated to make it many times more efficient when the new website was launched last year. I suspect too, that they'll be able to add extra capacity to meet the demand - their parent company is in the IT business, after all."
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Thinking back to the state of the new website when FindMyPast released it last year, it would surprise the hell out of me if they actually could add extra capacity just like that
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Thinking back to the state of the new website when FindMyPast released it last year, it would surprise the hell out of me if they actually could add extra capacity just like that
You forget that they announced the reason for the new website was to ensure that they had capacity to expand because the original infrastructure did not. Whatever people think of the new site, it doesn't fall over anywhere near as much as the old one did for a year or so prior to the switchover.
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I believe that it is called "bandwidth" that they need to cope with the quantity of hits?
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Yes bandwidth relates to the ability for a lot of people trying to connect to their site. However, that also depends on the ability of their ISP to to enable the connections to the site. They also have to have their own server hardware in place to be able to enable many people to connect at any one time to it, older hardware can't always cope with that which was one of the reasons why they will have upgraded their infrastructure last year.
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It certainly holds interest for someone like me who knows very little about my father as I can find out where he was hopefully but it's astronomically priced even with my members discount it's 22.00 for five searches
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The question is how many people need to know the birth
date of someone alive in 1939?
I only need to know one approximate birthdate - but I do need to know addresses to find those elusive cousins . . I've only a handful of people in the UK . . just bits of three families, really.
I'll probably pop over to London and out to Kew in 2016 - New Year present to myself!
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From what I can understand all we will see is the register produced in 1939, and not any related registers. So people who were not in the household in 1939 would not be recorded on the register.
There is an image on the email that contains the credit discount code.
Which is intriguing
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Guy,
For a long time I thought we were going to see the household schedules, but I now understand what's being digitised is the enumerator's transcript books (RG 101)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14663902
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Looking at the way their revenue, profits and net worth has plummeted since the new management team took over and particularly last year), the cynic in me suggests the site has not fallen over as much because of the reduction in subscribed users rather than any improvement in capacity :0)
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From what I can understand all we will see is the register produced in 1939, and not any related registers. So people who were not in the household in 1939 would not be recorded on the register.
There is an image on the email that contains the credit discount code.
Which is intriguing
To repeat my post no.235 on p27
I got the same e mail and next to that very tempting looking picture it says...
Handwritten Register - View the original register document and see who lived in the surrounding houses in 1939.
It quite clearly shows house or road names and numbers, a list of people, looks like their sex, age a column I can't decipher, marital status and occupation. Now to me that says that if I pay for the register page with my family on it I will also see the neighbours. If I don't then to me that particular picture is totally mis-leading -
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...and it does not show redacted records - I suspect at least some of those in that picture would not be shown - you are unlikely to see records for children at school (unless they had passed away before 1991)
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After 75 years I fail to see why there is a need to delete or redact living people? Current Electoral registers are open registers.
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Current Electoral registers are open registers.
We have the chance to 'opt out' of being in the current online electoral registers ;)
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It certainly holds interest for someone like me who knows very little about my father as I can find out where he was hopefully but it's astronomically priced even with my members discount it's 22.00 for five searches
For most of us that's considerably less than a trip to London to see the records there.
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After 75 years I fail to see why there is a need to delete or redact living people? Current Electoral registers are open registers.
All the current electoral rolls show are names though,unless you're under 18 or older than 70 (past the age of being called up for jury service)
They do not have a personal info that the 1939 register has.
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At the end of the day, the costs are extortionate and a profit making venture for FindMyPast. I am sure that there may be a number of pensioners who are subscribers who may not be able to afford these costs, especially if they have extensive trees. Clearly, from what I read on the FindMyPast blog, there are countless others who find it too expensive.
I agree entirely, so I made a petition against the extortionate costs FindMyPast are asking. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/FindMyPast-1939-register-charge
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At the end of the day, the costs are extortionate and a profit making venture for FindMyPast. I am sure that there may be a number of pensioners who are subscribers who may not be able to afford these costs, especially if they have extensive trees. Clearly, from what I read on the FindMyPast blog, there are countless others who find it too expensive.
I agree entirely, so I made a petition against the extortionate costs FindMyPast are asking. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/FindMyPast-1939-register-charge
Your petition link gives me Page not found ::) Not that I intend signing it ???
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It seems that a number of people aren't happy on the FindMyPast American site as well.
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I'm sorry, but I really can't see why people expect a commercial firm like FindMyPast to make this set of records free or very cheap to the general public. They are there to make a profit and recoup what it has cost them to scan etc, not to provide a free service. If a government department had done all the scanning etc that would be different.
Genealogy isn't a cheap hobby. Although there are plenty of free resources, if we want to dig deeper it is going to cost us.
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I'm sorry, but I really can't see why people expect a commercial firm like FindMyPast to make this set of records free or very cheap to the general public. They are there to make a profit and recoup what it has cost them to scan etc, not to provide a free service. If a government department had done all the scanning etc that would be different.
Genealogy isn't a cheap hobby. Although there are plenty of free resources, if we want to dig deeper it is going to cost us.
I couldn't agree more. When you break down the subscription costs to weekly, my World subscription to FindMyPast cost less than £3.00. To expect them to go on adding data without extra charge is unrealistic.
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Well said groom ;D I agree with you.
Rosie
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I think FindMyPast have handled the pricing side of this very badly.
Until fairly recently, they din't even say whether or not this would be covered under existing subs (surely an easy thing to announce, even if they were still unsure of exactly how much to charge). Then to keep the exact amount quiet until around a week in advance smacks of trying to get everyone hooked before breaking the bad news. I'm sure they handled the 1911 far better.
They then shot themselves in the foot by the e-mail which announced the un-discounted and "un-bulked" first. I for one had the first reaction of "HOW MUCH!!" when I saw the first line of £6.95 per household, especially for something that may well be heavily redacted.
However, once the 28% discount for buying 5 households is accounted for and the any special codes (I have a 25% code from FindMyPast and a 10% code from the 1939 newsletter, with another 10% code promised from Genes), this all brings it down to a more managable figure - either 54% or 65% of that topline cost (or around 40% of a single cert). Bearing in mind the digitising work needed, not to mention the ongoing redaction work required. This is more of an understandable level.
I do think, however, that FindMyPast and Anc should view new record sets as a means of keeping existing subscribers. Afterall, as you progress through your tree, the record sets you use at the beginning are often not the same ones you consult a few years down the line.
Will I be indulging? Well, I think I will see what can be gleaned from the free searches and what the comments are from the "early birds", before I take the plunge. As I mentioned on page 3 of this thread, Ancestry have just hit me with a 12% increase for an unchanged sub, so Tree money is tighter than it was.
One question I haven't seen on here yet. If you use your 60 credits to see a particular household, do you just get that as a one-off (i.e. if you want to refer back, you have to save it down) or will the system remeber you have "bought" that record? And leading on from that, if it remembers and if that household has redactions, will you automatically see any redacted people as they become open as over 100 years (assuming you don't get them unlocked by sending certs) or will you have to re-buy it?
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According to the Lost Cousins newsletter, once you have paid for the record of a household, you won't have to pay for it again if and when new names are revealed either on the "100 yrs + 1 day" birth policy of if someone else provides a death cert.
I for one will be watching the breakfast news in the morning, I'm sure something of this magnitude will feature, and also be keeping an eye on FindMyPast's facebook and blog pages where I'm sure the traffic will be very busy.
I will be sitting back and waiting for the fuss to die down.
It's not as if we only have a month to grab all we need before it disappears.
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Do we know what time the 1939 Register will be released? ???
Kooky
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Do we know what time the 1939 Register will be released? ???
Kooky
About 7 PM (with a bit of luck people will believe this and I can have some time playing with it before the rush) or thereabouts.
Cheers
Guy ;)
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Upon reflection, this is not about the cost. Everyone understands that things have to be paid for. However, at no point since FindMyPast has starting advertising this since March, at no point did they say that it would not be part of a subscription. They advertised everything else about the 1939 register apart from the costs. I know for a fact from what many have said that they, this year, have taken out subscriptions with FindMyPast only because they thought that the 1939 register was going to be included in the subscription. They were not given any reason to think otherwise as FindMyPast did not inform anyone that viewing was going to be a stand alone cost and pay per view. It was an underhanded way for FindMyPast to get more subscribers and FindMyPast should have made it clear when they started advertising about the 1939 register that it was not included in subscriptions. Yes they need to make money and a profit because they are a business, but it's the underhanded way they went about this. They could have told people right from the start about costs being involved; if they were honest then this is what they would have done. People can't know that it wasn't part of the world wide subscription when FindMyPast did not advertise that it was not. At no point on the FindMyPast website did it say anything about costs, nor did it say it was not part of a subscription. That is dishonest and misleading. I do realise that some may be affronted by these comments, however, it is a fact that FindMyPast did not disclose the information about costs until the last minute...and there is a reason for this.
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Upon reflection, this is not about the cost. Everyone understands that things have to be paid for. However, at no point since FindMyPast has starting advertising this since March, at no point did they say that it would not be part of a subscription. They advertised everything else about the 1939 register apart from the costs. I know for a fact from what many have said that they, this year, have taken out subscriptions with FindMyPast only because they thought that the 1939 register was going to be included in the subscription. They were not given any reason to think otherwise as FindMyPast did not inform anyone that viewing was going to be a stand alone cost and pay per view. It was an underhanded way for FindMyPast to get more subscribers and FindMyPast should have made it clear when they started advertising about the 1939 register that it was not included in subscriptions. Yes they need to make money and a profit because they are a business, but it's the underhanded way they went about this. They could have told people right from the start about costs being involved; if they were honest then this is what they would have done. People can't know that it wasn't part of the world wide subscription when FindMyPast did not advertise that it was not. At no point on the FindMyPast website did it say anything about costs, nor did it say it was not part of a subscription. That is dishonest and misleading. I do realise that some may be affronted by these comments, however, it is a fact that FindMyPast did not disclose the information about costs until the last minute...and there is a reason for this.
The reason is very simple it is in the terms and conditions and has been since at least April 10 2014, I have just checked on the internet archive!
"Changes to the website or records: We reserve the right to make changes to the website, including the records and services we offer, without notice; however, we would not be in business very long if we suddenly took things away that you've paid for without offering you a decent replacement. If you're a subscriber, you'll be glad to know that you will generally get a lot of new records added to your subscription at no extra cost during the period of your subscription. Sometimes, if we launch a major new collection, we might make a separate charge for it, but this is rare. We may also change prices, make special offers to groups or individuals, or change the number of credits charged to view a record from time to time."
Cheers
Guy
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After 75 years I fail to see why there is a need to delete or redact living people? Current Electoral registers are open registers.
All the current electoral rolls show are names though,unless you're under 18 or older than 70 (past the age of being called up for jury service)
They do not have a personal info that the 1939 register has.
They also "could" show you as being a Lord, and therefore not qualified to vote for House of Commons elections. And they can show your eligibility to vote in European Elections. As you say if you are close to your 18th birthday they will show your birthdate.
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Although disappointing...it's unrealistic that this new data set will come without an extra charge...it's happened before....If we bide our time...it will become cheaper...like all new things it will be a novelty at first and if we want the information badly enough we will pay for it...it is a hobby and the costs have to be weighed against the benefits...I'm sure that..in common with many others that there will be mysteries and anomalies in our family history that we would all want to have answers for.
Carol
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Personally I'm glad that living or potentially living people are redacted. If I was old enough to have appeared on the register I wouldn't like to think that information about me i.e. exact date of birth was there for anyone to see or use. The Electoral Roll is different, as I was given and took, the opportunity to opt out and so wouldn't show up on a general search.
I think we tend to forget that majority of people are not into Genealogy, so while we want to find out all we can about ancestors, others want to preserve their privacy.
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It strikes me as inefficient and not cost effective for them to have digitised 100 % of the records. Some or many of them may never be requested.
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It strikes me as inefficient and not cost effective for them to have digitised 100 % of the records. Some or many of them may never be requested.
Issuing them on demand cost punters £42 a pop
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It strikes me as inefficient and not cost effective for them to have digitised 100 % of the records. Some or many of them may never be requested.
So what's the alternative, just scan them on request? That would probably have cost far more.
Sorry StevieSteve, we crossed posts. That proves my point though!
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It strikes me as inefficient and not cost effective for them to have digitised 100 % of the records. Some or many of them may never be requested.
The same could be said for every digitised and transcribed parish register (regardless of provider) and page from the censuses
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It must occur to anyone who is a transcriber that a portion of their records may never be used. We have to do them all just in case. Once done that's it unless corrections needed. It would be more inefficient to have to keep going back to them. They probably would get more damaged if having to keep going into them. Also how long would you have to wait for the record? If you think a transcriber decided to put what records they thought necessary and one you needed was left out. How would you feel? I know it's slightly different to scanning pages on demand but things would take forever to go on line if keep going back to the original.
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I'm locking the topic now as it has got to 35 pages and I'm sure there will be more discussion tomorrow as this new dataset goes live.
Please start a new topic to continue the chat.
Edited:
New topic started here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734302.0