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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Willim on Wednesday 02 September 15 22:14 BST (UK)

Title: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Wednesday 02 September 15 22:14 BST (UK)
 Greetings to all, this is my first post.

 Some time ago, in a reply to a post by Peggy, someone referenced the marriage of David Beggs and Sarah Crawford, residing in Balyalbana, Ballycor. I can find no further follow-up on any threads. This couple are my great grandparents. I have my lineage to them established and some information on their their seven children.

 According to the Register of Marriages David and Sarah were wed the 12th of June, 1874 in Raloo Presbyterian Church. He was Full Age and she was 19. They both resided in the Ballyalbana (so spelt) townland at the time of marriage. Their fathers were respectively: James Beggs, labourer and Samuel Crawford, farmer, likely resident in Ballyalbana too. The witnesses present were Sanderson Bamford and Eliza Bamford, likely friends and/or relatives of the families.

 What I would like to be able to do is trace out the lineages of James and Samuel. Who were their spouses, parents, siblings, etc.? Indeed I'd like to see if I can link any of them into any existing family trees, or at least find out additional information that with help me trace my lineage further back.

 Thank you for your interest and any contribution that you can make.

 Bill
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: aghadowey on Thursday 03 September 15 09:54 BST (UK)
Where have you searched so far?

Since marriages usually take place in the bride's church (which may or may not be the groom's church) then Raloo Presbyterian Church records is probably the best place to start looking for the Crawfords (and Beggs family).
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Peggy13 on Thursday 03 September 15 16:51 BST (UK)
I think David and Sarah are living in Carntall, Ballylinney in 1901 with 5 daughters, oldest being Maggie, age 21, so born abt. 1880. Looks like there may be older children, as marriage was 1874. They are in Mossbeg Town in 1911.
I found the birth of Maggie as Margaret McCauley Beggs on Jan 24, 1880 in Ballycor. Margaret McCauley is probably either the mother or grandmother of one of the parents.
Annie is born June 14, 1874 in Ballynure, Antrim, 2 days after marriage if correct dates.
James is born 27 Mar 1877 in Ballycor.
Interesting that wedding witnesses were Sanderson Bamford and Eliza Bamford.
I found a John Banford Beggs born in Liverpool, England on Oct 8, 1860 to David Beggs and Sarah, which must be a different couple but noticed the middle name. Maybe a connection somehow.
There is a Samuel Crawford who died in Ballyeaston Nov 10, 1874 and one of the witnesses to the will was Thomas Beggs, However, Samuel doesn't mention a daughter Sarah so may not be correct Samuel.
Oh I just found this on Proni - Probate of the Will of Samuel Crawford late of Torreagh, Raloo, Co. Antrim, Farmer, who died 1 May 1920 granted at Belfast 28 May 1920 to Matthew Crawford and David Criag, Farmers. Effects: £240 0s 0d. No images online.
Peggy
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Peggy13 on Thursday 03 September 15 18:45 BST (UK)
Samuel Crawford who died May 1, 1920 in Raloo cannot be the correct Samuel as he was born abt 1847 and Sarah was born 1855 ish.
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Thursday 03 September 15 22:27 BST (UK)
 Thank you Aghadowey for the reply and set me back on track. I first identified these ancestors on Family Search and some accessible private trees back in about 2006, when official records were much harder to come by. I more recently (2012) accessed their marriage details in both Emerald Ancestors and The Ulster Historical Foundation's paid for services. I was pleased to not only have their marriage and date confirmed, but also to the locality, father's names and witnesses provided. What disappointed me however was that the parental lineages I had identified for David and Sarah from other peoples trees appeared invalid. And I have been unable to identify the correct parents etc. Eventually discouraged, I'm afraid I have left this branch unattended for some time.

 Your suggestion to look to the church records of the church they were married in, and assume it was likely the bride's family church has set me back on that track again, and I find current church websites more promising in regards to making records available. For instance I've just found that one church of interest to me, First Donegore, has a DVD for sale that has It's Baptism and Marriage documents photographed, over 7000 of them. Here's the link: http://www.firstdonegore.org/records.html. So your suggestion has got me revisiting my other Antrim lineages too.

 So again, thank you very much for your help and encouragement.

Bill
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Thursday 03 September 15 23:20 BST (UK)
 Thank you Peggy for your information-rich reply. Let me share with you where it takes me. Your First points are of information I already had and was using. You said:

 I think David and Sarah are living in Carntall, Ballylinney in 1901 with 5 daughters, oldest being Maggie, age 21, so born abt. 1880. Looks like there may be older children, as marriage was 1874. They are in Mossbeg Town in 1911.
I found the birth of Maggie as Margaret McCauley Beggs on Jan 24, 1880 in Ballycor. Margaret McCauley is probably either the mother or grandmother of one of the parents.

 Yes, there were two older children, Annie and James (named after grandfather?) Annie was born shortly after the wedding in 1874, James was born in 1877.
 Now it gets even more interesting. You said: There is a Samuel Crawford who died in Ballyeaston Nov 10, 1874 and one of the witnesses to the will was Thomas Beggs,

 Both James Beggs (1877) and Margaret McAuley Beggs (1880) were born in the Civil Parish of Ballycor (possibly Ballycor Townland), while Annie Beggs (1874) was born in the Civil Parish of Ballynure, the Parish adjacent to the Parish of Ballycor (on the south of it). Moreover, both the bride and groom and their fathers were resident in the Townland of Ballyalbanagh in the Parish Ballycor at the time of the marriage. So this Samuel Crawford appears to have lived, farmed, in the Townland of Ballyeaston in the Parish of Ballycor. I'd say we have he right Crawford and Beggs fathers here. Witness Thomas Beggs likely is a relative to follow up.

 Your comment and insight here regarding the Bamfords are possible a real breakthrough for me to follow up. You said:
 Interesting that wedding witnesses were Sanderson Bamford and Eliza Bamford.
I found a John Banford Beggs born in Liverpool, England on Oct 8, 1860 to David Beggs and Sarah, which must be a different couple but noticed the middle name. Maybe a connection somehow.

 My father told me that when he was a young child, he and his parents went and stayed with relatives in Liverpool during the First WW. He never told me who the relatives were but apparently his grandmother went with them. His grandmother was Sarah (Crawford) Beggs, widow of David Beggs, who died in 1916. My surmise is they went not long after David's death. Since my father's father was overseas throughout the war, both mother and daughter must have been much on their own at that time, and went to stay with (close) relatives who could accommodate them.

 Thanks for so much food for thought and follow up.

 Willim
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Peggy13 on Friday 04 September 15 00:29 BST (UK)
I have found that John Bamford Beggs (here it is spelled Bamford) was born 10 September 1858 but    
christening was   8 October 1860   SAINT PETER, LIVERPOOL, LANCASHIRE, ENGLAND   
father:   David Beggs
mother:   Sarah (wonder if she is Sarah Bamford but might be Handley). there is a David Beggs to Sarah Handley marriage June 1, 1852 in Walton on the Hill, Lancashire. David's father David and Sarah's father William Handley. Sarah may have died first quarter 1872 if following correct Sarah.
I think it is the family living in Toxeth Park in 1871 with parents David (shipwright) (age 50) and Sarah, and siblings William, Ann I., David and Joseph.  Son David is 5 so born 1866ish. 
I find the siblings John, David and Joseph living together in 1881 in Toxteth. I think Joseph may be Joseph Youd Beggs born 1869. 
It may be John living in Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England in 1901, age 42. He was CORPORATION ASHMAN, whatever that is. He has wife Mary and son Robert, all born Liverpool.
There seems to be a John Beggs born 1853, Liverpool, parents David and Sarah. Whether it was an older sibling who died or a different couple I can't be sure as yet.  There is also a Sarah born 1862 but wonder if that is the same person as Ann on the 1871.
Peggy
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: jwaugh on Friday 04 September 15 13:38 BST (UK)
Hi

I have found five to David and Sarah's Children baptised in First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church.

Contact me through the Church website and I will give you what info I have. Info at firstballyeaston dot org

John
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: scotmum on Friday 04 September 15 16:49 BST (UK)
Quote from: Peggy13 on Friday 04 September 15 00:29 BST (UK)
He was CORPORATION ASHMAN, whatever that is.

Most likely a refuse collector/street sweeper.
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Friday 04 September 15 19:03 BST (UK)
 Thanks Peggy, I think we've been on the same website for Saint Peter's of Liverpool.

 As a point of correction; in my excitement with these new leads, I identified the wrong grandmother/mother as the one accompanying my father and his mother to Liverpool during WWI. It was not  Sarah (Crawford) Beggs, Susan's mother, but her mother-in-law, also a widow. 

 So back to that fine website for Saint Peter's to check for additional names. In my searches there yesterday, I was surprised by Bamford – Banford spelling difference, but maybe  that's not really a problem, name recording errors seem fairly common.

 Another point I found of interest was that Saint Peter's, as the name indicates, is not a Presbyterian church but rather C. of E. According to the Church website, on 29 June 1704,
Saint Peter's was the first Catholic parish following the Reformation to be consecrated in the new Established Church, the Church of England. So this indicates to me, following  Aghadowey suggestion above, that possibly a male Beggs close family member married a woman whose family was a member of this parish. Alternately it may have been a male family member from the in-law side. These are a couple of the possibilities I'll be checking out.

 Willim
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Friday 04 September 15 19:10 BST (UK)
 John,  you generously offered:

 I have found five to David and Sarah's Children baptised in First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church.

 Contact me through the Church website and I will give you what info I have. Info at firstballyeaston   dot org

 John

 Thanks John I will contact you there.

 Willim
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Peggy13 on Saturday 05 September 15 01:59 BST (UK)
Although this is branching into England , there is a small family tree for David Beggs and Sarah Handley with the only child mentioned being Joseph Youd Beggs. Joseph is a brother to John Bamford Beggs.  Don't know if this connects to your David Beggs and Sarah Crawford.
Peggy
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Saturday 05 September 15 02:14 BST (UK)
Quote from: jwaugh on Friday 04 September 15 13:38 BST (UK)
Hi

I have found five to David and Sarah's Children baptised in First Ballyeaston Presbyterian Church.

Contact me through the Church website and I will give you what info I have. Info at firstballyeaston dot org

John

Hi John, thanks, I'll contact your there.
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Monday 07 September 15 02:23 BST (UK)
 Thanks Scotmum for your succinct answer.

Quote from: Peggy13 on Today at 00:29
He was CORPORATION ASHMAN, whatever that is.

Most likely a refuse collector/street sweeper.
,,,,

 I like your Edmund Burke quote: "People who never look backward to their ancestors will never look forward to posterity."

 In that vein I was reflecting on this as well, and came up with a more rambling answer for myself. Do you think this is an accurate picture? Any more to add?

 An ashman was a collector or remover of household refuse, and in the age before electrical and city gas heating, ashes were the most abundant domestic refuse to dispose of. This was also before the age of the automobile, so an even bigger refuse problem for the “Corporation” - the municipal government – to dispose of was horse manure; the streets and the people were choking in it. There must have been a lot of ashman, dustman and street sweeper jobs available in the big cities.

Regards,

 Willim
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Wednesday 09 September 15 17:44 BST (UK)

 Peggy, more thoughts on our English connections and on the origins of the Bamford name:

 According to the britishsurnames.co.uk website, Bamford is a name of English origins. Assuming that the name would be concentrated where it first originated, at least in earlier times, I checked the UK 1881 census to see if it could find a pattern. I've used this ploy in the past, especially with the Griffith's Valuation records of 1847-1864 in Ireland, to good effect.

 The UK 1881 census shows an overwhelming concentration of Bamfords in the County of Lancashire with 2155 people of that surname. The next highest concentration was in Derbyshire with the 399, and Yorkshire was the only other county over 300 with 322. Smaller numbers of Bamfords were sprinkled throughout the UK.

 More precise locations can be found in the Census District data. The main concentration of Bamfords was to be found in the Census District of Wuerdle Wardle, Lancashire, with 296. Five neighbouring Census Districts had concentrations ranging from 101 to 161.

 So it's my conclusion that the Bamfords in County Antrim were English immigrants, possibly arriving as early as the English Plantation of Ireland in the 1600's, although with the Indusrial Revolution people became much more mobile between England, Ireland and Scotland.

 It's significant that Wuerdle Wardle was in the parish, now borough, of Rochdale in northeast Manchester, because south Antrim became a centre of the Irish textile industry, with many English and Scottish immigrants brought in to build it. So the linen industry in Antrim has venerable roots:

“Rochdale rose to prominence during the 19th century as a major mill town and centre for textile manufacture during the Industrial Revolution. It was a boomtown of the Industrial Revolution, and amongst the first ever industrialised towns.[3”

 This seems a good place to look for Antrim and Down ancestors with English surnames and emmigrant Irish family members to England.

 Cheers,
 Bill
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Peggy13 on Wednesday 09 September 15 21:54 BST (UK)
Hello Bill,
That is a fascinating bit of history about the Bamford name and Lancashire, etc. Thanks for sending.
Peggy
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Sunday 20 September 15 22:48 BST (UK)
 Thanks Peggy, I like to get a feel for the historical and social context of my forebearers.

 I'm just back from a two week holiday, and need to get back into my genealogy again. While I was gone, I received registration of marriage for Sanderson Bamford and Eliza Mary Douglas, 14 Feb 1874 at Mountpottinger in the Parish of Knockbreda in the County of Down. I was able to trace Sanderson B's birth to upstate New York, and his father, Jackson Bamford's emmigration to the US. So it appears Sanderson returned to N.I. and found an Irish bride. She was resident in Ballyalbana, Ballyeaston, at the time of their marriage, and it appears father Jackson Bamford had hailed from that vicinity. So far I have been unable to find more Douglas relatives of Eliza Mary or her father William Douglas of Ballyalbana. Still searching.

Cheers,

Bill

Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Gilby on Monday 28 September 15 18:18 BST (UK)
There's a book called The Ancestry of the Irish-American Thoburns which has a genealogy of the Crawfords of Raloo. 

I haven't been able to find a hard-copy of the book, but here is a link to the relevant page online:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89062526041;view=1up;seq=283
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Peggy13 on Monday 28 September 15 20:16 BST (UK)
My Thomas Beggs with his parents and siblings all emigrated to Maryland, possible about 1810-1820 but Thomas returned about 1830 and married in Co. Antrim.  The family did marvellously well in Maryland as brother John left $3,500 to each of Robert and Thomas in 1876, and big amounts to many relatives. In Maryland, they became big land owners.
I have managed, with much help, to build quite a complete family tree of this branch of the family but have not been so lucky with my Boyds who went from Ireland to England to Canada, some further to the States.
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Tuesday 29 September 15 02:51 BST (UK)
Thanks MFGilbert.

This is very intriguing going that far back. Do you know of any more recent Crawford lineages in the area that are able to link into these forebearers? I at one time thought I had found a link with Mcdowells and Chisties, but I now think that was invalid.

Bill
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Tuesday 29 September 15 03:17 BST (UK)
Thanks Peggy,

 You must be the pre-eminent researcher on the Beggs in the area. It would be great to be able to tie in with one of your interelated lineages.

 As you know from our earlier discussions about my David Beggs and his father James and wife Sarah Crawford, they seem to have eluded your fine net and my detection so far. I've been wondering if he, or they, may not have been transplants from, say Scotland or County Tyrone, for instance. No luck yet on this front though.

Regards,
Bill
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Peggy13 on Thursday 01 October 15 03:18 BST (UK)
Yes, Bill, I don't seem to have David and Sarah in my research.  But I will be keeping my eyes open for them from now on.
Peggy
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Thursday 01 October 15 19:32 BST (UK)

 Thanks Peggy, you are very generous.

 I have some additional information on this Beggs – Crawford line that I have tried to follow up but to no avail. It may be useful to you and others in your own research and possibly lead to mutual findings.

 My Sarah and David Beggs had 7 children ( 1 boy & 6 girls) that I have been able to verify with birth and census records. Three of the girls were given common Antrim and vicinity surnames as their second given names.

 Their first child, born 14 June, 1874 in Ballynure, was named Ann MAYNE Beggs; their third child, born 25 January, 1880 in Ballycor, was named Margaret McAULEY Beggs; and their sixth, born 1 September, 1888 in Ballylinney, was named Agnes MUSSEN Beggs.

 I've been unable to find any Beggs or Crawford alliances with any of these families in Antrim, so I'm wondering if you or anyone else has seen such marriages or lineages that predate these girls births and may be possible relatives?  Hopefully this information will provide leads for others as well.

 Regards Bill
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Gilby on Thursday 01 October 15 21:46 BST (UK)
No, I'm afraid I don't know much more about the Crawford lines.  So far I only have a very distant roundabout connection to the Crawfords in that book, and I haven't yet followed any lines forward.

I have another look through Beggs headstone photos I have.  There is a David Beggs buried in Rashee, but it's earlier than yours.  Maybe they're part of the same family though.  This is what I can make out from the photo:

In
Memory of
DAVID BEGGS
who departed
this life the 2 ... Febr...
17[78?] ag.......lso MAI...
his wife who dep.......
life the ..0 of O... 179..
ag..7[5?] yr.... ..so their
son DAVID BEGGS
Me...an.. late of Ca....
....n who departed this
life the 11th .......
aged [8?]0 .....
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Gilby on Thursday 01 October 15 22:03 BST (UK)
Oh, another headstone from Rashee which may or may not be relevant:

ERECTED
BY
WILLIAM JOHN BAMFORD
To the Memory of his Father
JOHN BAMFORD, Lismanary
Died 29th May, 1861, Aged 67 Years
Also WILLIAM JOHN MILLAR
His Nephew died 29th October 1861
Aged 5 years
Also LEONORA JANE MILLAR
His Niece died [3?]rd April, 1862
Aged 8 years
Also his Mother LEANORA BAMFORD,
Died 31st May, 1872, Aged 74 years

Lismenary is on the north side of Ballynure, and isn't far from Ballyalbanagh, which also borders Ballyboley.  There are a few Banfords of Ballyboley on the will calendars, including one who names a Hugh Beggs as executor. 

[I wouldn't worry about the Bamford/Banford spelling differences.  The above William John BaMford is called William John BaNford in his will, assuming it has been copied out faithfully.]
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Friday 02 October 15 17:35 BST (UK)
 Thank you MFGilbert, this could be very pertinent so I will try to delve into these people further to look for linkages.

Regards,

 Bill
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Friday 02 October 15 17:43 BST (UK)

 In point of clarification to my earlier post, although I have not yet found specific marriage linkages between my two ancestral families and the surnames of interest, I have an interesting lead.

 In my first post 2 September, above I said:

 According to the Register of Marriages David and Sarah were wed the 12th of June, 1874 in Raloo Presbyterian Church. He was Full Age and she was 19. They both resided in the Ballyalbana (so spelt) townland at the time of marriage. Their fathers were respectively: James Beggs, labourer and Samuel Crawford, farmer, likely resident in Ballyalbana too. The witnesses present were Sanderson Bamford and Eliza Bamford, likely friends and/or relatives of the families.

 You, Peggy, keyed in on looking for a Beggs-Bamford connection and gave me some suggestions. I followed this up further trying to identify who my Bamford couple was. I found out some details that should be posted on a different thread than this one, and I will do that when I'm satisfied I have it right.

 Meanwhile what I found out relevent to this thread is that the wife of Sanderson Bamford, Eliza Bamford, was born Elizabeth Mary Douglas, daughter of William Douglas and Ann MAYNE.  Elizabeth Mary Douglas was born about 1850 in Ballyeaston, Antrim.  Mother, Ann Mayne was born in Antrim about 1806 and father, William Douglas appears to have been born in Scotland about 1801.

 Considering that  marriage witnesses are commonly close relatives, and marriages generally take place in the family church of the bride, I think these people could well be the link between my Beggs and the Maynes, with their home turf being the environs of Ballyeaston. Does anyone see the potential Mayne line that may provide the key?

 Thanks, Bill
 
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Peggy13 on Friday 02 October 15 19:39 BST (UK)
My Thomas John Beggs married Christiana Mayne on May 1, 1885 in Ballyclare Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
Don't know if that helps.
Peggy
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Saturday 03 October 15 16:34 BST (UK)
 Thanks Peggy, I'll look into this.

 Regards,

 Bill
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Wednesday 19 April 17 20:21 BST (UK)
Renewed Greetings,

 I've finally returned after an extended absence. My attention to my genealogical studies had been badly distracted by some of the vagaries of life. But now I'm able to get back to them. It's been a while so I'm in the process of re-familiarizing myself with where I left off. I unfortunately lost some of my recent tree work too and need to do some more digging to reformulate it.

 I'm still seeking my Beggs and Crawford lineages in Ballycor and adjacent parishes. My focus of attention here has been  David Beggs and Sarah Crawford, and their offspring. David is still much of a puzzle. He is traceable in some documents, but I can find no birth or baptismal records even though the 1901 Census of Ireland records his birthplace as County Antrim. And more disconcerting or maybe more intriguing, is that his birth year is so inconsistently reported. In his marriage registration, he is said to be of Full Age on the day of the marriage, 12 June, 1874. This indicates he was born prior to 12 June, 1853. In the Census of Ireland of 1901 he reports his age to be 50 implying a birth year of 1851. While in the 1911 Census of Ireland he says his age is 63 implying a birth year of 1848. His civil registration of death estimates his birth year to be about 1850. The first record of his birth I encountered was in his Family Group Record (which included his wife Sarah and most of his daughters) at familysearch.org when I first started searching for him in 2007. There his birth year was recorded as 1856 and I'd basically adopted this year in my own records and puzzled about the others.

 What all this seems to suggest is that since he appears to not have had his birth officially recorded in the civil records by his family, and that he was not baptized, his mother may have been unmarried at the time and living a home with her farm family, and they chose not to publically acknowledge a birth out of wedlock. And then in subsequent years his purported birth date was fudged to make it fit in with his mother's subsequent marriage date.

 There are indications that his mother was the Janet Robinson of Ballyalbana who married James Beggs on 27 November, 1854 at the Ballyeaston First Presbyterian Church. They went on to have four children: Agnes Beggs, born 1855; Jane Murdoch Beggs, born 1859; William Beggs, born 1861 and; James Beggs, born 1864. These dates are all derived from the Baptismal Records of the Ballyeaston First Presbyterian Church. Being that Agnes was born about 10 months after the marriage and there is a three year plus gap before the next child, Jane, is born, there is a convenient gap to place David's birth. Hence the familysearch.org family-reported birthdate of 1856. This may have been the family's traditional birthdate for him but David may have lapsed by the time of the census of 1911 to a more accurate 1848 when he reported his birth year on that year's census form.

 I realize that I'm doing a lot of speculating here on the basis of circumstantial evidence, but I'm wondering if anyone has any information that can confirm, correct or elaborate the scenario I've pictured here. Is it plausible, is it likely, can it be confirmed or disconfirmed? Any thoughts?
 
 Regards,

 Bill

   “You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from.”   Cormac McCarthy



Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 19 April 17 21:35 BST (UK)
You're talking about a range from 1848-1953 which is only 5 years so not much of a difference. Civil registration of births didn't start until 1864 so it wasn't that his parents neglected to officially register his birth but rather than wasn't an available option. Even much later many people didn't have a clear idea of exactly when they'd been born.

The first record of his birth I encountered was in his Family Group Record (which included his wife Sarah and most of his daughters) at familysearch.org when I first started searching for him in 2007. There his birth year was recorded as 1856 and I'd basically adopted this year in my own records and puzzled about the others.
If you mean a record from a submitted LDS family tree (Pedigree Resource File) then these records are only as accurate as the details properly researched by the submitter. Quite often the bride is given as 4 years younger than her husband and a set age is given for marriage.
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Thursday 20 April 17 05:18 BST (UK)
Thank you aghadowey, these are very useful points for me to consider.

“Civil registration of births didn't start until 1864 so it wasn't that his parents neglected to officially register his birth but rather than wasn't an available option. Even much later many people didn't have a clear idea of exactly when they'd been born.”

So true, and yet who would think of it in our modern day. It's good to see it from their situation. This really adds perspective. Thanks again aghadowey.

Bill
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: rittrock on Friday 20 November 20 12:18 GMT (UK)
Is anyone still researching this thread? William Douglas's children (Eliza and Thomas) are in Ballycor in the 1911 census, well after Sa(u)nderson Bamford's death, and Eliza has several youngsters in the house. Who are they? What became of them? Mary is a foster child in 1901, and then James, Martha and Sarah also appear in 1911. Birthplace is consistently Antrim (no mention of America or Scotland) although census entries are not always reliable.
Fostering or adoption might be very informal at the time. It is the usual long shot but identifying these children might uncover links with the other families in the thread. Everyone mentioned is dead now - otherwise I would not ask.

best wishes
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: aghadowey on Friday 20 November 20 16:28 GMT (UK)
Eliza & brother Thomas Douglas are living in Ballyboley not Ballycor in 1911-
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Ballycor/Ballyboley/189282/
The 4 children boarding there (all Presbyterian, born Co.Antrim)-
Mary Simpson, age 12
James Hill, age 12
Martha Hill, age 10
Sarah Jane Laverty, age 8

In 1901 Eliza Bamford in Craiganorme with foster child Mary Simpson, age 3-
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Kilwaughter/Craiganorme/995050/

Added- possibility for Sarah Jane Laverty?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01947/1752474.pdf
Title: Re: Seeking Beggs Crawford Lineages, Ballycor
Post by: Willim on Wednesday 25 November 20 23:58 GMT (UK)
Thank you aghadowey and rittrock for your information. I'll look into these sources.
I have not been looking into the Bamford and Douglas connections for some time.

Regards,
Bill