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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: carolmasip on Friday 21 August 15 20:37 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Can anyone suggest anything for the following:
Thomas FRAIL and Helen Hughes, living in Jarrow, had children every one or two years between 1932 and 1944 when Helen died in childbirth.
Have, however, only found records of the following:
- Thomas b. Dec. 1930's, Catherine & Bernard b. 1930's, Peter Hughes b. Mar. 1930's, Irene b. March 1930's and Vincent b. 1930s. all children born 1930's, post edited as they are living people
Can anyone suggest why I can not find records of any children between 1940 and 1944 (have tried variants of surname)? Also, if Helen died in childbirth and the child too, would there be a record of the child (she died January 24th 1944)? Many thanks for any suggestions.
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Hi
Just a thought - but could Thomas have been away fighting in WW2 between 1940 and 1944?
Do you know how many children they actually had please?
giggsy
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Also, if Helen died in childbirth and the child too, would there be a record of the child
If the child was stillborn before the 28th week of pregnancy - no online record (present day is 24weeks)
If the child was born after the 28th week alive or stillborn or died later - the birth/death would have had to be registered
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/civilreg.html#Stillbirth
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Option 1, he was away at War, some people were away the whole time.
Option 2, there were problems with her pregnancies. After the last successful one she suffered several miscarriages over the years until the final one was a problem that killed her.
Option 3, he wasn't sleeping with her as he was having an affair.... her last pregnancy wasn't actually even with her husband, who she'd not slept with since 1939.
Take your pick .... :)
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When and where did this couple marry as I can't see a Frail/Hughes marriage
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Canada
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=725722.0
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Canada
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=725722.0
Well, that makes a difference.... if she was in England and he was on boats/possibly in or near Canada, it was nigh on impossible to cross the Atlantic safely due to the War.... so, more likely to have been absent for most of it... at a wild guess.
You didn't go floating about in boats in the Atlantic in those days.
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Hi,
I did a "re"-search in the BMD Index and found only 4 children associated with Frail/Hughes marriage, Thomas (1932), Peter H (1936), Irene (1938), Vincent (1939). Bernard seems to be associated with a Frail/Brockley marriage (1931 birth) or a Frail/Little marriage (1932 birth), and Catherine with a Frail/Shiels Marriage (birth 1932).
Am I missing something re Bernard & Catherine?
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Many thanks for all the ideas - obvious when pointed out - but which hadn't occurred to me :-\.
The Frails sailed back to the UK from Canada together in 1931. Thomas Frail (born Jarrow 1905) was thought to have been in the merchant navy so could he have been away 1940 - 1943/4 - are there records for this? Not sure how many children were born in total. Twins Catherine & Bernard were born in 1933 (know this from family and also found records on familysearch.org).
NB. Any record of Thomas Frail (parents John Frail and Ann(ie) McGary/Rowan) sailing to Quebec? (he married Helen Hughes there in 1929 in St Laurent's Church - also on this point - Helen Hughes only arrived in Canada the previous year so any thoughts on why the couple would have returned to the UK (most people were going to Canada to settle and make a new life)? Would they have had to pay their own fares? and any ideas of the cost of a third class ticket in those days?
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Twins Catherine & Bernard were born in 1933 (know this from family and also found records on familysearch.org).
I am puzzled. I can't see a birth registration in the England & Wales GRO index for these children, nor in the South Shields Registrars search. Neither can I see a likely record on Family Search.
Do you have a link to the records you found on Family Search?
Boo
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I couldn't see anything either for 1933 and I also tried Scotlands People as previous post showed they left Canada for Scotland in 1931
Because of the birthyears - names should not be given as they may still be living.
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The information on familysearch.org are death records in Durham
Catherine born 1933 (doesn't say where) death 1934 South Shields, Durham
Bernard born 1933 (doesn't say where) death 1935 South Shields, Durham
FreeBMD has the deaths.
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It may be worthwhile looking at these two births
Births Dec 1/4 1932
C F MMN Shields S.Sheilds 10a 1140
T F MMN Hughes S.Sheilds 10a 1140
I am wondering if the MMN Sheilds was typed on the GRO entry by mistake seeing that it is the registration district.
I realize the boys name is T..... but does have the mmn Hughes
There was a birth of a Bernard Frail Sept 1/4 1932 Stockton reg dist mmn Little who could be the one who died in March 1/4 1935
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The local registrars site has those entries
Catherine : District: SS/Jarrow.CRegister: 31 Entry: 137
Thomas : District: SS/Jarrow.CRegister: 31 Entry: 140
Its more usual for twins to be entered with consecutive numbers in the register.
I'd be contacting the Registrars at registrars@southtyneside.gov.uk to ask if the parents names are a match for the couple carolmasip is looking for.
addition: There is a marriage for a Peter FRAIL and a Mary SHIELS Dec quarter 1926, S Shields, so they'd be the running favourite to be the parents of Catherine in the GRO index.
Boo
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“Twins Catherine & Bernard were born in 1933 (know this from family and also found records on familysearch.org)”
Unfortunately, the familysearch.org research has proven to be less reliable than the UK BMD Index search for this family. It certainly appears that there were just 4 children born to Thomas Frail and Helen Hughes during the time period given. These were: Thomas (1932), Peter H (1936), Irene (1938), Vincent (1939).
Catherine, born Q4 1932, died Q1 1934, before her 2nd birthday and is the daughter of Peter Frail and Mary Sheils (who married Q4 1926).
There are 2 options for Bernard, but neither associates him with Frail/Hughes.
Bernard 1, born Q3 1932, died Q1 1935 before his 3rd birthday and is the son of Bernard Frail and Margaret Little (who married Q4 1931).
Bernard 2, born Q3 1931 is the son of Leonard Frail and Doris Brockley (who married Q1 1922).
Peter Frail, Catherine’s father, and Bernard Frail, Bernard 1’s father, appear to be Thomas Frails younger brothers as all can be found in the 1911 UK census at No. 21 Heslops Yd, Birtley, Durham.
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Many thanks - that clarifies things!