RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: tigerprawn on Friday 07 August 15 11:35 BST (UK)
-
Hi everyone!!
So far I have completed a massive chunk of my family tree, but it's come to a halt with my great grandparents that originally came from New Zealand. All I have been able to find is a newspaper article notifying of their divorce. I can't even find my great grandmother's maiden name. Can anyone suggest a decent resource for New Zealand family history?
Also, is there any way I can find out the name of fathers that weren't in the picture, without paying or having to obtain a birth certificate?
Reply to this message or message me if you have any information that might help me. It will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
-
Hi there,
You can check out the resources forum:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/new-zealand-resources-offers/
If you can be more specific about who you're looking for, and particularly the timescale and area of New Zealand, people will be able to give better targeted suggestions.
-
Hi Tigerprawn
If they are deceased how about putting names here so we can help you,unfortunately our BDM's are down for maintenance this weekend but we may be able to help.
Cheers Janette
-
Thanks Janette and morose.
I am looking for Cecilia Margaret and Frederick Swain who lived at Oteramika Gorge and were divorced through the Supreme Court of New Zealand, Otaga and Southland District in 1907. I have been told that Cecilia is originally from Denmark with a maiden name of Beustbolt. However, I haven't been able to find this name anywhere.
-
Hi Tigerprawn,
Here's their marriage in 1888: Cecilia Margaret LINDHOLD and Frederick SWAIN (1888/956). www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz
I'm not a NZ expert, don't know if the certificate would show much helpful info, but I assume so?
However, the account of their divorce proceedings in Southland Times 6 June 1907 says they were childless. http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ST19070606.2.47&srpos=9&e=-------100--1----2frederick+swain--
-
NZ Certificates are in credibly informative esp at that time :)
-
Hi
here is their marriage entry from BDM's
1888/956 Cecilia Margaret Lindhold to Frederick Swain
you will see here what would be on the register
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/datacollected/marriage.aspx
It is always better to purchase a "printout" rather than a certificate as usually they have more information as they are a photocopy of the register entry
Cheers Janette
-
Hello...
As the divorce was over 100 years ago you can view their divorce file at Dunedin Archives. The divorce file often, but not always, contains a copy of the marriage certificate.
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=10626935 (http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=10626935)
If you're unable to get to Dunedin you can either pay Dunedin Archives to photocopy the file and send it to you (usually a charge of at least $25) or start a new thread entitled "Dunedin Archives look-up". Include the above link and, on his/her next visit to Dunedin Archives, a kind Rootschatter will take photos of the file and email them to you.
---
I have completed a massive chunk of my family tree, but it's come to a halt with my great grandparents
As mentioned, the newspaper article in reply #4 says there were no children.
No children = no grandchildren = no great-grandchildren.
What makes you think they are your great-grandparents.
---
A Frederick SWAIN married an Agnes RUSSELL on 24 Sep 1907, a few days after your Frederick's decree absolute. Possibly a second marriage for your Frederick?
You might want to start an ITM (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714246.0) look-up thread for both the 1888 and the 1907 marriages. Might have some info. Might not.
---
Where did you come across the name Beustbolt. Not a common name at all.
Regards
Beg
-
I got the name Beustbolt was the name that my aunty gave me. She has also been working on the tree but also come to a stop there. If that name is incorrect that would be why.
-
Hi Tigerprawn,
I could look up the Intention to Marry Notices for 1888 and 1907 as Beg suggests above but to do so I will need not only the date of marriage but also the place.
Intention to Marry Notices were usually completed a week prior to the marriage, and were usually the same as the place of marriage. They are only indexed up to 1880.
The way the ITM Registers are arranged means that without this information it's like looking for the proverbial needle.
Spades
-
The marriage date was 6/2/1888
Cheers Janette
-
Spades, does this help for the 1907? 1896 E/R has a Frederick Swain living in Gorge Road, Mataura, Southland. He is a farmer, and in the 1911 E/R there is an Agnes at the same address.
Looking at the E/R's Agnes was living in the same area at time of marriage.
Cheers
KHP
-
They were married in Invercargill according to the divorce record in PapersPast
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ST19070606.2.47&srpos=6&e=-02-1888--02---100--1-byDA---2+frederick+swain--
Cheers Janette
-
A Frederick SWAIN married an Agnes RUSSELL on 24 Sep 1907, a few days after your Frederick's decree absolute. Possibly a second marriage for your Frederick?
The PapersPast account of the divorce stated on 5th June 1907 that decree nisi would be granted to be made absolute in 3 months,maybe he had met Agnes Russell and needed a divorce to marry her
Cheers Janette
-
Ok then,
6 Feb 1888 at Invercargill - Frederick SWAIN to Cecilia Margaret LINDHOLD.
24 Sep 1907 possibly at Mataura - Frederick SWAIN to Agnes RUSSELL.
I'll see what I can find. ;)
Spades
-
Here is an interesting birth registration
1984/121351 Swain Sarah Elizabeth to Agnes and Frederick exact date of birth 26/1/1905
This may be her marriage
1928/6092 Sarah Elizabeth Swain to Leonard Adolph Collett
Cheers Janette
-
Her death
1996/56816 Collett Sarah Elizabeth born 26/1/1905 91Y
ER's
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1928 Mataura Southland
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1935 Mataura Southland
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1938 Mataura Southland
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1946 Clutha Otago
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1949 Clutha Otago
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1954 Clutha Otago
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1957 Clutha Otago
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1963 Wallace Southland
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1969 Lyttelton Canterbury
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1972 Lyttelton Canterbury
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1978 Lyttelton Canterbury
Sarah Elizabeth Collett 1981 Lyttelton Canterbury
Cheers Janette
-
This may be her marriage
1928/6092 Sarah Elizabeth Swain to Leonard Adolph Collett
Cheers Janette
Look at what is held at the NZSG (New Zealand Society of Genealogists :D
NZSG Certificates Collection
Name : SWAIN Sarah Elizabeth
Date : 08 Aug 1928
Event : Marriage
Place : Mataura SLD NZ
Cheers
KHP
-
I wouldn't be surprised if Agnes had been married before ... there is a Divorce held at Archives Dunedin 1882 for Agnes Russell. Only speculation, but the ITM should tell us.
Cheers
KHP
-
Marriage in Knox Church Dunedin
from Presbyterian Archives
http://www.archives.presbyterian.org.nz/synodregionmarriages.htm
LINDHOLD Mrs Johanne nee Olsen 37y NELSON Carl Frederick 35y (x) - 16 May 1883 KnoxChurch
Is this related ?
Signal
-
Is Charles NELSON, witness in the divorce case, the same person as Carl Frederick NELSON in previous post ?
Why did Cecilia ask him for money when in Blenheim
Signal
-
Hi Signal
Just working on this now ... yes, the above marriage appears to be related in that the bride is possibly the mother of Cecilia Margaret SWAIN ?
I'm still sifting through other information, will post again shortly.
~ Lu
-
Yes, Signal ... Charles (a.k.a. Carl) NELSON it appears is probably the man who married Johanne (Johanna) LINDHOLD (1883). :)
-
I got the name Beustbolt was the name that my aunty gave me. She has also been working on the tree but also come to a stop there. If that name is incorrect that would be why.
Hi tigerprawn
If you (or maybe your aunt) have managed to arrive at finding your great-grandparents (who you say are Cecilia Margaret and Frederick SWAIN) then, either one of these great-grandparents, must have had a child ?
Can you please give us the name of that child ?
~ Lu
-
Why did Cecilia ask him for money when in Blenheim
Signal
... I seem to recall the reason was given in the newspaper article ... (something to do with the man she was living with, being ill ?? )
-
Swains of Oteramika
There are two Swains who served in WWII
recorded on Oteramika War Memorial and Gorge Road War Memorial.
One bears the initial "F" Either of these may still be living so check out the pictures
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/photo/oteramika-war-memorial
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/photo/gorge-road-war-memorial
Signal
-
Why did Cecilia ask him for money when in Blenheim ?
... I seem to recall the reason was given in the newspaper article ... (something to do with the man she was living with, being ill ?? )
.... The supposition is that there was a continuing relationship between Charles and Cecilia
.... in spite of Charles being a witness against Cecelia at the divorce
Signal
-
There is an online tree for the following :
Caecilia Margarethe LINDHOLD (spelling as given on tree)
born : Denmark - 29 March 1869 (Oster-Logum, Aaberaa-Sondeborg)
Parents: Peter Thomsen LINDHOLT (spelling as given on tree)
and Johanne Ulrikka OLSEN/NEILSON
Tree contains a reference to Johanne having married Charles Frederick NELSON.
[* NZSG Marriages has the marriage as Johanne LINDHOLD - Carl Frederick NELSON - 1883 ]
[Carl NELSON pops up in newspaper items from c. 1875, in the Wakatipu (Southland) area. ]
-
Swains of Oteramika Presbyterian Parish Marriages
SWAIN Alfred 19 WARREN Catherine 19 15-Jan 1896
SWAIN David 25 BRADSHAW Jane 24 1-Jun 1910
Signal
-
MURPHY/BURKE and McBRIDE family trees (@ ancestry) :
One (or both ?) of above trees have noted the marriage in New South Wales of >
Ruby Mary SWAIN to Henry H. BURKE -- 1912 (NSW)
and her death in 1972.
Further, there is a note of a birth of a "Ruby Mary SWAIN on 21 November 1891 at Invercargill, New Zealand". [Using resources other than NZBDM, I haven't managed to find that birth ... yet. ]
------------------
Tigerprawn ... is this Ruby Mary (SWAIN) the person you are connected to ??
-
The New South Wales Death Index, has the following :
NSW
50992 / 1972
BURKE - Ruby
Father: Fredrick as spelled on index]
Mother: Maggie*
[* Is "Maggie", Cecelia Margaret ?? (Maggie being a diminutive of her second name Margaret ? ]
-
From aforementioned online trees, this death :
"Caecilie Margarethe LINDHOLD
Died: 28 January 1946 - 76 years
of (or at) Walcha Road, NSW"
[Haven't yet found this death in NSW Index. ]
-
Hi Tigerprawn,
I have the Intention to Marry Notices for you.
Could you send me a PM with your email address, please.
Spades
-
Frederick SWAIN was probably the person who came to New Zealand with his parents and siblings in 1874.
Ship: "William Davie" to Otago - 14 January 1874
SWAIN
- Hodges - 37 yrs - ex Kent - farm labourer
- Mary A. (wife) - 32
- Mary A. (daughter) - 12 years
- William Hy (William Henry) - 6
- Frederic - 4 years
- Emily - 2
- Alfred - 2/12 (2 months)
-
Electoral :
1896 - Southland - Mataura roll
SWAIN - Hodges - farmer - residential
SWAIN - Frederick - farmer - residential
SWAIN - Alfred - farmer - residential
... address for all = Oteramika Gorge
-
Burials :
http://icc.govt.nz/cemeteries/cemetery-search/
Frederick SWAIN - 70 years - buried 5 July 1940
also Agnes SWAIN - 84 years - buried 13 July 1948
[Headstone photo and inscription available on above site. ]
~ Lu
-
... also at previous cemeteries link >
SWAIN - Hodges - 74 years - buried 22 October 1910 - Saint John's Cemetery
SWAIN - Mary Ann - buried 11 December 1890
+ 2 infants
[Hodges SWAIN remarried in 1899 to Sarah Elizabeth McDONALD (she died 1940 in Auckland). ]
-
UK Marriage :
11 October 1857 at Wye, Kent, England
Hodges SWAIN - Mary Ann LINKINS
-
UK Baptism :
Hodges SWAIN - born 31 May 1836
Father: William - labourer
Mother: Jane
Baptised at Hempstead Place, Ashford, Kent, England on 17 June 1836
Denomination: Wesleyan
-
Marriage in Knox Church Dunedin
from Presbyterian Archives
http://www.archives.presbyterian.org.nz/synodregionmarriages.htm
LINDHOLD Mrs Johanne nee Olsen 37y NELSON Carl Frederick 35y (x) - 16 May 1883 KnoxChurch
Is this related ?
Signal
This Divorce record ex Invercargill High Court :
NELSON - Charles Frederick -- v. -- NELSON - Johanna -- Year 1901
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=10626910
~ Lu
-
Hi everyone
Ruby Mary SWAIN is the person I'm connected to.
Thank you everyone for your help. So far it still looks like Cecilia Margaret LINDHOLD was Ruby's mother. She was definitely born before Cecilia and Frederick divorced.
Tigerprawn
-
I have sent you a pm as i have info on the Lindholt's.
Charles was her step father. Her mother Johanna died in 1932
Carol
-
I have info on the Lindholt's
Hello Carol...
Does your LINDHOLT info expand any further the info given by Lucy in reply #27, particularly in reference to Ruby SWAIN's birth. I was looking for her birth but can stop if you've already found it... thanks.
---
If you're unable to get to Dunedin you can pay Dunedin Archives to photocopy the file and send it to you (usually a charge of at least $25)
Ouch!!! $50 flat fee as of July 1st 2015 for Archives NZ to photocopy a file (probate/divorce/ITM etc)
Regards
Beg
-
Had found the above info re: Charles Frederick NELSON prior to Carol's posting.
Adding here just in case it's of interest.
-- 1901 - divorce from Johanna NELSON
-- Charles Frederick NELSON remarried 1903 to Sarah CHRISTIE.
-- Charles (labourer) and Sarah residing 1905-06 and 1908, at Greenhills (Southland-Awarua roll)
-- NZ Naturalisation : Charles Frederick NELSON - 62 years [bc 1848] -- Birthplace : Kalmar*, Former Nationality: Swedish, Occupation: Farmer, Resident City: Greenhills, Naturalisation date: 2 June 1910
-- Charles and Sarah NELSON on e/roll at 72 Ferguson St. Palmerston North - 1911.
-- Charles Frederick NELSON d. 1918 at Palmerston North. (Surprisingly, his headstone photo has his name as "Frederick C. NELSON" ?? ) Death notices published in local paper as well as in "Southland Times".
-- Probate file : Charles Frederick NELSON - his will mentioned wife, Sarah, and a son named as Charles NELSON. An affidavit stated that he was a Naturalised British Subject, and gave his birthplace as "Kalana"** , Sweden.
[Note: * "Kalmar", Sweden (birthplace shown on Naturalisation index) ** "Kalana", Sweden, (as given in affidavit on Probate record. ]
-
Hi Carol
When the "LINDHOLD" (LINDHOLT) name sprang up, I had been going to also mention Anna Maria, a daughter of Johanna, and sister to Cecilia) who married a "THORNHILL" ( and I'd somehow recalled the "THORNHILL" name cropping up in a previous thread on the NZ board. )
Have just now found that thread from 2012 ... which was yours. :)
So, will post the link here ... may save on repeating some info ? ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=619250.0
~ Lu
-
Further to Reply # 27, the record of baptism for Cecilia Margaret LINDHOLT (LINDHOLD), can be found at the FamilySearch site.
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/location/1927025
Caecille Margarethe LINDHOLT
Christened on : 29 March 1869
At (place) : Oster Logum, Aabenraa-Sonderborg, Denmark
Father : Peter Thomsen LINDHOLT
Mother: Johanne Ulrikka OLSEN*
also ... christened, same place
Anna Maria LINDHOLT - on 30 April 1867
Father : Peder Thomsen LINDHOLDT
Mother : Johanne Ulrikka OLESEN **
[Note: Different spellings of mother's maiden name. ]
-
I couldn't see a marriage between Johanne (Johanna) OLESEN / OLSEN and Peter (Peder) Thomsen LINDHOLT.
However, of interest is the following marriage - at the same place as the LINDHOLT daughters of Johanne (and Peter Thomsen) were christened. ???
Peder Thomsen LINDHOLT
Born : 21 June 1839
Parents: Peter Peterson & Ane Nielsen
Marriage to: Christine Marie JESPERSEN
Event date : 17 May 1878
Place : Oster-Logum, Aabenraa - Denmark
Go to familysearch link given in previous post, to access full record.
-
NELSON / NEILSON / NILSON : + Johanne LINDHOLD (LINDHOLT)
The researcher on the following site, has the 1883 Marriage certificate for Johanne LINDHOLD and Carl Frederick NELSON.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SWEDEN/2007-07/1183462276
~ Lu
-
In the Will of Charles Frederick NELSON (Probate file - 1918 -- died at Palmerston North), his son "Charles NELSON" is mentioned.
[Had searched earlier for the birth of this son, thinking he may have been born to the second wife, Sarah (Christie).]
The rootsweb archived thread of 2007 (link in previous post), gives a son named as
"Charles Frederick NEILSON". [No NZ birth record cited, but a date of birth - 21 January 1884, and birthplace of "Longbush" (Southland) is stated. ]
This appears to be the birth registration : [Source : NZ BDM online ]
1884 / 10541 - NILSON - Charlie
Parents: Johanne and Charlie
[Asssumed from the above that Johanne LINDHOLD (LINDHOLT) is his mother ? ]
[Date of birth, deduced from online index = 21 January 1884 : NZ Birth Index (at ancestry) has registration place as, Invercargill. ]
[This son married 1905 as Charles Frederick NEILSONand continued to use that version of surname. Died 1964 - buried at Gore Cemetery - headstone has "1881 - 1964" ]
-
I couldn't see a marriage between Johanne (Johanna) OLESEN / OLSEN and Peter (Peder) Thomsen LINDHOLT.
Married 7 Sep 1866 in Skrydstrup Church, Gram, Haderslev county as mentioned on their daughter's birth register entry.
Entry no.27
http://tinyurl.com/pyypy6m (http://tinyurl.com/pyypy6m)
... which corresponds with the following banns/marriage announcement
Skrydstrup parish, Gram, Haderslev county
http://tinyurl.com/qat4bdk (http://tinyurl.com/qat4bdk)
---
Ruby Mary SWAIN is the person I'm connected to.
Has it actually been shown that Caecilia Margaret SWAIN f.LINDHOLD is the mother of Ruby Mary BURKE b.SWAIN. It seems as though a lot of work is being done in anticipation of the fact but I'm just wondering where is the proof :-)
Findagrave
http://tinyurl.com/nzt4qol (http://tinyurl.com/nzt4qol)
Funeral Notice
Sydney Morning Herald
23 May 1972
http://tinyurl.com/ozb8t9e (http://tinyurl.com/ozb8t9e) (just X any annoying pop-ups)
Regards
Beg
-
Ruby Mary SWAIN is the person I'm connected to.
Has it actually been shown that Caecilia Margaret SWAIN f.LINDHOLD is the mother of Ruby May HODGES b.SWAIN. It seems as though a lot of work is being done in anticipation of the fact but I'm just wondering where is the proof :-)
Regards
Beg
Yes, exactly what I've been wondering ???
[/quote]MURPHY/BURKE and McBRIDE family trees (@ ancestry) :
One (or both ?) of above trees have noted the marriage in New South Wales of >
Ruby Mary SWAIN to Henry H. BURKE -- 1912 (NSW)
and her death in 1972.
Further, there is a note of a birth of a "Ruby Mary SWAIN on 21 November 1891 at Invercargill, New Zealand". [Using resources other than NZBDM, I haven't managed to find that birth ... yet. ]
------------------
I think Ruby's birth needs to be established with more than just a reference on an existing tree.
-
Ruby Mary SWAIN was my Great Grandmother. This info was given to us by her daughter Rita Jean Burke (my grandmother).
I have recently learn that there may be a family Bible that Cecilie wrote the family's names in. I'm about to check with my aunty to see if there was one and if she knows where it is.
-
Ruby Mary SWAIN was my Great Grandmother. This info was given to us by her daughter Rita Jean Burke (my grandmother).
I have recently learn that there may be a family Bible that Cecilie wrote the family's names in. I'm about to check with my aunty to see if there was one and if she knows where it is.
Yes, there is reference to a family Bible in relation to Ruby's husband Hercules Henry BURKE here:
http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/b/u/l/June-M-Bullivant-NSW/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0204.html
-
I have no info on Cecilie's life after she married Swain. I do not know if Ruby was her daughter or who the father was. My main interest was Annie.
-
Has it actually been shown that Caecilia Margaret SWAIN f.LINDHOLD is the mother of Ruby May HODGES b.SWAIN. It seems as though a lot of work is being done in anticipation of the fact but I'm just wondering where is the proof :-)
Regards
Beg
Hi maddys52
Just a bit puzzled as as to why you've altered Beg's quote and added the names "Ruby May HODGES". ???
I think Ruby's birth needs to be established with more than just a reference on an existing tree.
The references actually came from the two trees I mentioned, but there are numerous other trees which give information on Ruby Mary BURKE / SWAIN.
Please also refer to my Reply # 30 which gives details from the entry in the New South Wales Death Index regarding Ruby Mary BURKE. I have asked a question concerning the names of her parents as shown on that index. No reply received to date.
"Tigerprawn's" initial enquiry mentions that she is stuck with finding information for her great-grandparents, Cecilia Margaret and Frederick SWAIN. One would assume that as she has their names (and some additional information about them), that the usual process of working backwards in family history, has been followed.
Certainly it would be helpful to the cause if we knew if references to Ruby Mary SWAIN (BURKE) came purely from oral history ... or whether there is "official" documentation to support the findings. ???
~ Lu
-
Hi maddys52
Just a bit puzzled as as to why you've altered Beg's quote and added the names "Ruby May HODGES". ???
Mea culpa :-)
I too read Maddy's reply and wondered why the names were wrong. Checked the reply that she had quoted and saw that I had written the wrong name. Proof positive, if needed, that there's no cure for stupid...
I amended my original reply but obviously couldn't do the same to Maddy's quoted reply.
---
There's really only two births that I could find in Southland which match the 21 Nov 1891 birthdate, don't appear later in BDM NZ Marriages and don't have younger siblings.
1891/16420 - HOWARD, Bridget - mother: Elizabeth father: Thomas
1891/16244 - LUSCOMBE, Clarice Francis - mother: Frances father: Edwin
Neither of the mother's maiden names, DOOGAN and LAWRENCE respectively, have popped up previously but I'll mention them.
I'm thinking either 21 Nov 1891 is the wrong birthdate or the birth went unregistered.
Ruby not being their natural daughter is an obvious possibility but short of words to that effect in their divorce file, or an mtDNA test, I can't think of a way to prove/disprove it.
Regards
Beg
-
Hi maddys52
Just a bit puzzled as as to why you've altered Beg's quote and added the names "Ruby May HODGES". ???
Mea culpa :-)
I too read Maddy's reply and wondered why the names were wrong. Checked the reply that she had quoted and saw that I had written the wrong name. Proof positive, if needed, that there's no cure for stupid...
I amended my original reply but obviously couldn't do the same to Maddy's quoted reply.
---
Thanks Beg for sorting that out - thought I was going bonkers!
The main reason I'm concerned about Ruby Mary SWAIN's parentage is that divorce record which says Frederick and Cecilia Margaret were childless.
Tigerprawn, have you got the NSW marriage certificate for Henry BURKE and Ruby SWAIN? That should say who her parents were, her place of birth and age and father's profession. I had a look on Trove, but there were no accounts of the marriage that I could see.
cheers,
M
-
Tigerprawn, I forgot to add that are a few interesting articles about Hercules Henry BURKE on Trove, in case you haven't seen them. Simply put his name (in inverted commas) into the search at http://trove.nla.gov.au
-
I asked my aunty about the family bible I had heard of. It belonged to Ruby Mary and contains the dates of her mother and husband's deaths.
Cecilia Margaret 28 Jan 1946
Frederick Swain 8 Apr 1956
I don't have any other documentation linking Cecilie and Ruby to one another. At the moment it is purely what I have been told. Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to talk to my grandmother (Ruby Mary's daughter) before she passed away last year.
-
I asked my aunty about the family bible I had heard of. It belonged to Ruby Mary and contains the dates of her mother and husband's deaths.
Cecilia Margaret 28 Jan 1946
Frederick Swain 8 Apr 1956
I don't have any other documentation linking Cecilie and Ruby to one another. At the moment it is purely what I have been told. Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to talk to my grandmother (Ruby Mary's daughter) before she passed away last year.
"Frederick Swain" should have been Hercules Henry Burke as it was her husband's death date and not her father's.
-
Caecilie Margarethe LINDHOLD
Died: 28 January 1946 - 76 years
of (or at) Walcha Road, NSW
[Haven't yet found this death in NSW Index. ]
BDM NSW
6319/1946 - Margaret Cecilia JOHNSON
Father: Peter THOMSON
Mother: Joanna
Registration District: Walcha
Date of death: 28 Jan 1946
Regards
Beg
-
Looks good Beg ... well done. ;)
-
? ? ?
http://headstonephotos.com.au/inscription?id=1521419 (http://headstonephotos.com.au/inscription?id=1521419)
Regards
Beg
-
Hi Tigerprawn,
Just a reminder that I have those Intention to Marry Notices waiting here for you (see Reply#32). 8)
Could you send me a PM with your email address, please?
Spades
-
There is this NSW marriage: Margaret C TUCKWELL m William JOHNSON at Armidale in 1926 (9593/1926). Fits in will the headstone inscription (though somewhat confusing all round!)
-
It looks like Cecilie was with a few different men in her time, so she may have married again after her divorce with Frederick in 1907... Possibly more than once.
-
Images sent.
Spades
-
As some of you have probably realised by now that one of my aunties has been researching the family as well. As there is no mention of Ruby Mary SWAIN being a child of Cecilia and Frederick, she thinks that perhaps she was born in the period after Cecilia left Frederick but before their divorce, therefore taking her mother's name at the time.
My grandmother always believed that she had Maori blood in her. Maybe this is where is came from if she did.
-
[...] there is no mention of Ruby Mary SWAIN being a child of Cecilia and Frederick
[...] perhaps she was born in the period after Cecilia left Frederick
[...] believed that she had Maori blood in her
Hi again...
Not finding a birth registration for Ruby SWAIN may simply mean her birth wasn't registered.
Likewise the newspaper report saying Frederick and Cecilia were childless may simply be inaccurate reporting.
Speculation otherwise is fairly pointless until your ongoing research turns up something new.
---
One thing well worth pursuing is the divorce file in Dunedin Archives (see reply no.7).
The TradeMe genealogy board (another NZ-based genealogy board) has a few volunteers who will do look-ups in Dunedin Archives. Maybe post a look-up request on that board.
Registration is restricted to NZ and Aus citizens. If that's not you then maybe one of the TM genies on this board might start a TM look-up thread on your behalf.
---
In my book, family history will always trump genealogy.
One concrete piece of evidence is Ruby's bible in which she mentions her mother, Cecilia. If Ruby considers Cecilia to be her mother then that's all the evidence I would need. The Danish research mentioned in reply no.45 would be my/your next starting point.
However, if you want to go down the genealogy route (and have a spare $199) you could always ask Carol (see reply no.53) if she knows whether or not Cecilia's older sister Annie has a surviving direct female descendant. Annie had a couple of daughters who both had daughters so it's a distinct possibility.
Am assuming you are female (?) so if you or your aunty are direct female descendants of Ruby, and if Cecilia's older sister Annie has a surviving direct grand or great-grand-daughter (with a spare $199) then a FMS-DNA test could prove that Ruby was Cecilia's natural daughter... and you would have a new third cousin :-)
Regards
Beg
-
My Daughter would be a great great granddaughter of Annie.
Annie married William Alfred Thornhill
Alfred William Thornhill married Annie Elizabeth Mollerstedt
Alma Annie Thornhill had my late husdand (out of wedlock)
Carol
-
Hi Carol...
Hope you didn't mind me mentioning you in my post :-)
Thanks for the family line but it needs to be the daughter of a daughter of a daughter... etc ... of Johanne Ulrikke OLSEN so Alfred William THORNHILL is a non-starter.
Daughters of Alfred's sisters Annie (McDONALD?) and Johanna (JOHNSTONE?) are what we're looking for. And then their daughters. And then their daughters etc...
Regards
Beg
-
Thanks Beg
It was actually Ruby Mary's father that I was sure about. There is no mention of Frederick in Ruby's bible, just her mother and husband. It seems that Frederick was from England and Cecilia was Danish, meaning that if there is Maori blood the probable place would be Ruby's biological father if it was not Frederick.
-
Just to advise that "tigerprawn" has a new thread relating to Ruby Mary SWAIN.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728792.0
-
[...] the newspaper report saying Frederick and Cecilia were childless may simply be inaccurate reporting.
My apologies to the reporter... a very kind soul passing through Dunedin managed to do a quick look-up of Frederick and Cecilia's 1907 divorce file. Frederick's petition actually states there were no issue from the marriage.
In fact the newspaper report in reply #4 is a pretty accurate summation of Frederick's petition. As well, the newspaper report has a lot of info mentioned during the proceedings which is not in the file.
The only bit of info in the file new to me (maybe not to you) is that, after leaving Frederick, Cecilia may have been living in the Hutt area with her mother, Johanna NELSON/NEILSON. Maybe this is where Ruby was raised.
Maybe look for Ruby's school records in the Hutt area. See if there is a male guardian mentioned. Or a (usually inaccurate) date of birth different to 21 Nov 1891.
Also, following on from the original newspaper report, maybe look for Ruby's school records in the Motu-Rimu/Southland area, again for mention of a male guardian or a different date of birth.
Johanna was still in the Hutt when she died. Would be handy to know when she moved there from the South Island.
Death notice - Johanna NELSON
http://tinyurl.com/nhpex5t (http://tinyurl.com/nhpex5t)
---
I've stripped the usual legal mutterings from the divorce file and what remains is in the following zip file. Let me know if there's a problem opening the file.
Just click on the following link, then the "Download" button.
If any pop-up boxes appear just X them. There's no need to sign up to Dropbox to download the file.
SWAIN divorce file.zip
http://tinyurl.com/obcykgt (http://tinyurl.com/obcykgt)
Regards
Beg