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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: RayWitt on Monday 03 August 15 00:19 BST (UK)
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I am trying to trace some information on my 2x great grandfather, Michael CROWLEY.
I have no concrete information (no family stories or records) so what information I have is just trying to piece bits together.
I found a listing of immigration for Michael Crowley from Liverpool, 1858 to NSW on board the Golconda. Assisted passage, sponsored by Margaret Pursell. Occupation: labourer. Listed as being able to read and write. No family in Australia.
Also, a death listing from 28 Nov 1912 East Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Eye and Ear Hospital; Occupation:Farmer of Pound Creek, 75yrs old.
I think he married here in Australia, Honora/Nora/Norah O'LOUGHLIN (I have no concrete records for her either) and I believe they had 12 children. On each of the childrens' birth records her name is slightly different, and on one, her surname is listed as HARKINS.
I was wondering if anyone would be able to find where Michael originated/was born (I assume Ireland) and if there is a marriage record for Michael and Nora? Any other information would be appreciated too (i.e. census or employment), or point me in the right direction of where to find the information.
Thanks.
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Hi there,
Welcome to RootsChat.
Can you please give some further information about your chap, Michael CROWLEY, your 2 x great grandfather.
What information is recorded on your great grandparent's Birth or Marriage or Death certificates that gives you the details about their parent Michael CROWLEY?
If it is on great grandparent's birth certificate, then was the informant Michael Crowley, or simply named as the baby's dad? Hopefully Michael was the informant, as that would be first hand information, and the information should be reliable. Does it record Michael's then age, usual address, occupation, place of birth, when and where married? Does it record similar information about the baby's Mum?
Cheers, JM
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Hi RayWitt,
Welcome to rootschat :).
Just adding a few links to what you probably already have.
It seems so sad .... http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66182065
Two old residents of the Inverloch district in the persons of Mr and Mrs Michael Crowley died within the past fortnight. Mr Crowley died in Melbourne where he was under medical attention for
for an eye -trouble. ' The news came as- a surprise to all, and Mrs Crowley re
ceived such a shock that she only survived her husband by a week. Deceased
were 74 and 75 years of age respectively
His death http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10495026
Her death (coming soon) .Leader Melbourne 14 december 1912
Drummond-street, North Carlton (suddenly), Honora, relict of the late Michael Crowley, of Pound Creek ... , Inverloch, South Gippsland, and loving mother of John, James, Michael Austin and Nicholas Crowley, and
regards,
Ros
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Good question.
I don't have any of the birth certificates, just the listings from Victorian BDM lookup.
My great grandmother was Cath CROWLEY
I have recorded that Catherine CROWLEY was born in 1880, Carlton (Registration Number: 13985)
In this record it lists:
Father's name: Michl Crowley
Mother's name: Nora Oloughlin
Being only the digital online record I don't have any other information that may be on the physical certificate.
Cath was the second last child born - Cath's first sibling being in 1864 at Woods Point.
From this I gather Michael was likely working at one of the gold mines in that area (the time frame fits) but again I have no evidence.
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Death in victoria
1912 Nora Crowley
Birth year about 1842
Age 70
Father's name Harkin Austin
Mother's name Ann Droney
reg 13601
regards
Ros
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The information on Victoria's BDM records is very very detailed, perhaps the most detailed in the world.
You can purchase and download the document immediately with your plastic card.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
May I suggest you consider downloading your Great Gran's birth cert. It will give you information about her older siblings as well. ;D
Here's what you should expect to find
Births
:) Date and place of birth;
:) name of child and whether present or not;
:) name of parents (including mother's maiden name);
:) occupation of parents;
:) ages and birthplace of parents;
:) date and place of marriage of parents;
:) previous children of their marriage noting living or deceased;
:) signature, description and address of the person who gave the information;
:) names of witnesses;
:) date and place of registration.
Here's the link for your plastic card.... https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage Use the reference no. you have already found for her birth. (#13985)
Cheers, JM
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Thank you both for your replies.
I had missed those newspaper articles. I have requested an email for when the last article about Nora is released.
Looks like I will be purchasing the birth certificate for my great grandmother :)
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Ok, so on the birth cert for my great grandmother it lists Michael and Nora Oloughlin marriage on 11 Aug 1863 at Woods Point.
Michael is listed as a Labourer, 37 from Cork Ireland. That makes DOB c. 1843
Nora (formerly Oloughlin) is listed as 35 from County Clare Ireland. That makes DOB c. 1845
So now the mystery of why Honora used a mixture of Harkin and Oloughlin?
My hunch is that she arrived as a convict and changed her name from Harkin to Oloughlin?
At least now I know when and where they were married.
P.S Vic BDM sure know how to charge!
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There is a will free to download for Michael CROWLEY who died in 1912 at http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54.
regards
Ros
adding : and one for Norah too
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Did you notice Harkin is mentioned :
Death in victoria
1912 Nora Crowley
Birth year about 1842
Age 70
Father's name Harkin Austin
Mother's name Ann Droney
reg 13601
regards
Ros
Perhaps if you type up the all info on your Great Gran's cert? I have noticed that quite often it is the smallest details that help sort the quests. Yes, family history certificates are an expense. I suggested your Gran's birth cert because it would give you info about her older siblings, as well as her parents, and herself.
Who was the informant? If you could type up all the info gleaned from the cert other RChatters with offline resources may be able to help you further.
Cheers, JM
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I am doubtful of an Irish lass, born circa 1845 being transported 'beyond the seas" under a sentence of a criminal court.
Transportation to NSW effectively ceased in 1840. Victoria was not yet hived off from NSW at that time.
Perhaps she came with family, or perhaps she came alone. Irish Potato Famine may be an alternative 'push-pull' factor.... Gold fever another ....
Cheers, JM
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I was wondering if anyone would be able to find where Michael originated/was born (I assume Ireland) and if there is a marriage record for Michael and Nora?
Marriage
CRAWLEY Michael
OLOUGHLIN Hannah
1863 Reg#2618
This certificate would give you the bride and groom's ages and places of birth and parents' names including the mothers' maiden names along with their fathers' occupations. I think Victorian certificates are extremely good value at $24.
Cando
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http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5705756
The Argus 7 Nov 1861
Missing friends, messages etc.
MICHAEL CROWLEY, from Bantry, County Cork, Ireland, write immediately to John Crowley, 170 King street, Melbourne
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6482554
The Argus 10 Jan 1863
Missing friends, messages etc.
MICHAEL CROWLEY, Bantry, Cork,— write to your brother Denis, Jordan Diggings, Jericho.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5870723
The Argus 2 Sep 1873
INSOLVENT COURT
Monday, Sept. 1.
(Before Mr. R. H. MacDonnell, Chief Clerk.)
General Meetings.
General meetings were held and closed in the estates of Michael Crowley, of Wood's Point, miner, and Richard Briggs, of Sandridge, brickmoker.
Cando
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Thank you Cando
Those listings make sense - Woods Point is right near Jericho, just below Lake Eildon, so perhaps his brother was writing to tell him to get there quick as the gold was being discovered.
I'll be back with more information later.
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The Michael CROWLEY who was an Assisted Passenger on the Golconda, arriving to NSW on 21 Oct 1858, was aged 20, a labourer, from County Clare. He could Read and Write and was a Roman Catholic.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5316/4_4795/Golconda_21%20Oct%201858/4_479500193.jpg&No=12
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/115560562 Freeman’s Journal 30 Oct 1858.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13020291 SMH 23 Oct 1858
The Vic BDM has your Michael as from Bantry, County Cork. The newspaper cuttings have same .... So, I think it is unlikely for your Michael to be the passenger from County Clare, born c1838, arriving into Sydney NSW on that voyage.
......
I found a listing of immigration for Michael Crowley from Liverpool, 1858 to NSW on board the Golconda. Assisted passage, sponsored by Margaret Pursell. Occupation: labourer. Listed as being able to read and write. No family in Australia.....
The newspaper cuttings from Cando are giving you at least two brothers for Michael.... :) (John and Denis)
Cheers, JM
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A Daniel 22 years and a Michael CROWLEY 20 years arriving Victoria on Nov 1858 on the WHITE STAR
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ftv/
If I was researching this family the next step would be to purchase this certificate.
Marriage
CRAWLEY Michael
OLOUGHLIN Hannah
1863 Reg#2618
Cando
Births
CROWLEY Catherine
Father Michael Mother Hanora OLOUGHLIN
At Woods Point 1864 Reg#19166
CROWLEY John Thomas
Father Michael Mother Honora LOUGHLAN
At Woods Point 1866 Reg#5687
CROWLEY James
Father Michael Mother:Honora OLOUGHLIN
At Woods Point 1868 Reg#6436
CROWLEY Margaret Ann
Father Michael Mother Honora LAUCHLAN
At Woods Point 1869 Reg#25940
CROWLEY Michael
Father Michael Mother Norah OLOUGHLIN
At Woods Point 1872 Reg#6427
CROWLEY Austin
Father Micheal Mother Norah OLOUGHLIN
At Melbourne North 1873 Reg#25406
CROWLEY Nicholas William
Father Michael Mother Honora OLOUGHLIN
At Melbourne 1875 Reg#24064
CROWLEY Anne
Father Michael Mother Hanorah OLOUGHLEN
At Carlton 1877 Reg#13919
CROWLEY Dennis
Father Michael Mother Hanora O LOUGHLIN
At Carlton 1879 Reg#7539
CROWLEY Catherine
Father Michael Mother Norah OLOUGHLIN
At Carlton 1880 Reg#13985
CROWLEY Bernard
Father Michael Mother Norah OLOUGHLIN
At Carlton 1883 Reg#7684
Deaths
CROWLEY Mary [Is this Catherine born 1864?]
Father Michael Mother Honorah UNKNOWN
1866 1 year Born Woods Point Reg#3777
CROWLEY Annie
Father Michael Mother Hanora HARKINS
1877 3 months Born Carlton Reg#10316
CROWLEY Denis
Father Michael Mother Hanora OLOUGHLIN
1879 3 months Born Carlton Reg#3977
CROWLEY Bernard
Father Michael Mother Nora OLOUGHLIN
At Carlton 1 year 1884 Reg#579
Cando
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http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10495026
The Argus 29 Nov 1912
CROWLEY. On the 28th November, at the Eye and Ear Hospital, Michael Crowley, of Pound Creek, beloved husband of Norah Crowley, aged 75
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66182065
South Bourke and Mornington Journal 19 Dec 1912
Two old residents of the Inverloch district in the persons of Mr and Mrs Michael Crowley died within the past fortnight. Mr Crowley died in Melbourne where he was under medical attention for for an eye trouble. The news came as a surprise to all, and Mrs Crowley received such a shock that she only survived her husband by a week. Deceased were 74 and 75 years of age respectively.
Death
CROWLEY Michael
Parents unknown
At Melbourne East 75 years 1912 Reg#15283
CROWLEY Nora
Father Harkin Austin Mother Ann DRONEY
At Carlton North 70 years 1912 Reg#13601
Cando
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Yes, that is the siblings!
From the Certificate -
Child: Catherine (not present)
Born: 15 May 1880, corner Grattan and Madeline street; Smith Ward; City of Melbourne; County of Bourke
Sex: Female
Father: Michael Crowley; Labourer, 37 born Cork, Ireland
Married: 11th August 1863 Woods Point.
Children: Minnie (dead), John 14, James 12, Margaret 10, Michael 8, Austin 6, Nicholas 4, Anne (dead), Dennis (dead).
Mother: Nora Crowley formerly OLoughlin, 35 born County Clare, Ireland
Informant: Nora Crowley, mother, Carlton (declaration made as by-law required)
Witnesses: 1. (I can't read the heading) Not Any; 2. Nurse by whom certified - Mrs O'Dwyer; 3. Name of occupiers or other witnesses - M Crowley
Registered: 31st July 1880, Carlton; Signed by John Shannon(?)
Not listed is a sister also named Catherine born 1864 @ Woods Point (the first of the children) who I don't have a death record of but possibly died at birth or as an infant, and "Minnie" I'm guessing is Mary who was born 1865 and died 1866 also @ Woods Point. There are BDM listings for both so I'm assuming they are separate children.
So, I will discount Michael coming to Australia in 1858 aboard the Golconda as he would have been too young (and from the wrong place) but if his age in Catherine's birth cert is correct and he was 37 in 1880, he was born c. 1843. If he was 75 at his death in 1912, he was born c.1837.
That immigration record for Daniel and Michael could very well fit with the approx birth date.
Again, the death record from the paper is all I was going by as to where/when/how he died.
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Children: Minnie (dead), John 14, James 12, Margaret 10, Michael 8, Austin 6, Nicholas 4, Anne (dead), Dennis (dead)
Catherine/Mary/Minnie are the one and same born 1864. If she was born in late 1864 and died early 1866 she would have been 1 year old.
Cando
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Earlier in the thread in her Reply#2 and Reply #4, when she gave the death notices for Michael and Hanorah and Hanorah's CROWLEY's death reg, Rosball did comment on the sadness of seeing the two deaths of a couple so close together.
Sad mostly for those left behind, I suppose. :-\
Monumental Inscription
At Melbourne General Cemetery
Erected by Ann MORONEY
to the memory of her beloved husband
Michael MORONEY
native of Co. Clare, Ireland
died 6 Aug 1874 age 64 years
Michael CROWLEY
died 28 Nov 1913 age 75 years
also Hanorah
wife of above
died 6 Dec 1913 age 70 years.
Sue
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Australian Electoral Roll
1903 Flinders/Lower Tarwin
CROWLEY Austin Tarwin Labourer
CROWLEY Hannah Tarwin HD
CROWLEY James Tarwin Labourer
CROWLEY John Tarwin Labourer
CROWLEY Michael Tarwin Farmer
CROWLEY Michael Jnr Tarwin Farmer
CROWLEY Nicholas Tarwin Farmer
Vic Flinders/Leongatha 1909
CROWLEY Austin Pound Creek Labourer
CROWLEY James Pound Creek Labourer
CROWLEY John Pound Creek Labourer
CROWLEY Michael Pound Creek Farmer
CROWLEY Nicholas William, Pound Creek Contractor
CROWLEY Norah Pound Creek Postmistress
Cando
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Probate files
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
CROWLEY Michael Farmer Pound Crk 28 Nov 1912 128/147 VPRS 28/P3, unit 344; VPRS 7591/P2, unit 489
Cando
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The death of the other man who shares the memorial with the CROWLEYs
MORONEY Michael
Father James
Mother Mary OLOUGHLIN
Age 64
Birth Place CLAR
Sue
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CROWLEY Michael
Gazetted 18 Dec 1863
Victoria Government Gazette. Page#2968
Comment: Gazette item sub title heading: Unclaimed Ship Letters Talbot
CROWLEY Michael
Gazetted 20 Jan 1865
Place Wood's Point, Victoria
Source Victoria Government Gazette Page#151 1
Comment: Gazette item sub title heading: Shareholders Faugh-a-Ballagh Gold Mining Co
CROWLEY Michael
Gazetted 29 Aug 1873
Place Wood's Point, Victoria
Victoria Government Gazette Page#1550
Comment Gazette item sub title heading - Insolvencies
CROWLEY Michael
Gazetted 29 Aug 1873
Place Wood's Point, Victoria
Victoria Government Gazette Pge#1552
Comment - Gazette item sub title heading - Insolvency Court
Cando
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Monumental Inscription
At Melbourne General Cemetery
Erected by Ann MORONEY
to the memory of her beloved husband
Michael MORONEY
native of Co. Clare, Ireland
died 6 Aug 1874 age 64 years
Michael CROWLEY
died 28 Nov 1913 age 75 years
also Hanorah
wife of above
died 6 Dec 1913 age 70 years.
Sue
I'm pretty sure they died in 1912 - especially since the link to the will and probate earlier was settled April 1913. Also the newspaper records of their death were published in 1912. The probate also lists the living children (including my great grandmother who was by then married), confirming Michael Crowley of Pound Creek who died 28 Nov 1912 is the correct Michael Crowley.
Cando - you are too quick!!!
sparrett - I think you just cracked the mystery of where the OLoughlin fits... but how do they connect? If her parents were Harkin, was she married before? Were they adoptive parents?
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The dates on the MI are an error, possibly on the part of the person commissioning the inscription, or on the part of the Cemetery transcribers.
There was no death in 1913 for Michael CROWLEY in Victoria.
Note the date and month are correct for him per the news item. The year is not.
Sue
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The death of the other man who shares the memorial with the CROWLEYs
MORONEY Michael
Father James
Mother Mary OLOUGHLIN
Age 64
Birth Place CLAR
Sue
I wonder how accurate the info is on that cert as this appears to be the couple's marriage
MORONY Michael
OLOUGHLAN Anne
1863 Reg#474
Were Anne and Nora sisters?
Cando
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Re HARKIN...I suggest you purchase the marriage certificate to find information given by the parties involved and not third parties who invariably get things wrong.
Cando
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Is this the death of a brother of the memorialised Michael MORONEY four years later?
Or just a common mix of good Irish names and birth place!
MORONEY John
Father James
Mother Mary OLOUGHLIN
Age 60
Birth Place CLAR
Year: 1878
Reg Number 1490
Sue
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Could be either Sue and two of the many reasons we occasionally need to purchase certs to validate our research. :)
Cando
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Death in victoria
1912 Nora Crowley
Birth year about 1842
Age 70
Father's name Harkin Austin
Mother's name Ann Droney
reg 13601
regards
Ros
Here is the death of the Ann who memorialised her husband
MORONEY Anne
Father Droney
Mothexr Unknown UNKNOWN
Age 80
Death Place Andersons Inlet
Year 1897
Reg. Number 3728
So if this is correct, Norah's mother and Ann's father had the same surname.DRONEY
Sue
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Here is the death of a brother of Nora CROWLEY, named after their father.
HARKIN Austin
Father Harkin Austin
Mother Ann DRONEY
Age 65
Death Place Flton
Year 1916
Reg. 5891
In this funeral notice in 1909 both A. HARKIN snr and A HARKIN Jnr (of Melbourne) were coffin bearers.
The event marked the passing of Julia O'LOUGHLEN only surviving daughter of late Michael O’LOUGHLEN of Curlewis.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/147922150
So both were in Victoria
This news item 21st February 1903.
GRAND VIEW HOTEL. - Great improvements are being effected at the Grand View hotel, Fairfield of which Mr Austin HARKIN , late of Inverloch, Gippsland, is the new lessee. It is, we understand, Mr. Harkin's intention to make the hostelry a first-class one, capable of. accommodating visitors and boarders. When the improvements are completed we will have more to say on this subject
Sue
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An obit to Michael O'LOUGHLEN of Curlewis in 1908
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150610567
regards
Ros
adding : there is a will that can be downloaded free for Michaal OLOUGHLEN farmer of Curlewis who died 7 Oct 1908. http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
(Omit the apostrophe when searching)
And one for Julia OLOUGHLEN, spinster, of Curlewis who died 8 Feb 1909
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All this information is great - thank you for your efforts!
I just did a Google search for Austin Harkin and it came up with another ancestry site with information of Austin Harkin, born 1851 Clare Ireland, died Flemington Victoria 1916 whose parents were Austin and Anne Harkin. One of his sons was also Austin (just to confuse it even more) so I am assuming the Austin snr and jr in the obituary notice above for Julia Ann OLoughlin/OLoughlen is referring to Nora's brother and nephew, not her father and brother (and the time frame fits better for her brother rather than father being alive in 1909).
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http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138686417
The Australasian 13 Jun 1903
GRIFFEY.—On the 31st May, 1903, at her residence, 163 Eastern-road, South Melbourne, Nancy, the loved wife of Patrick Griffey, and dearly be loved mother of Katie and Mrs Harkin, Grand View Hotel, Fairfield; only sister of Michal O'Loughlin, Curlewis, and cousin of John, Dr., and Michael Quinlan, solicitor; Mrs. Macinerney, sen., "Blakenount," county of Clare, Ireland; and the late Miss Anne O'Brien, of Ennis. Interred June 2, 1903. R.LP. A resident of South Melbourne tor 18 years. Ennis papers please copy.
Austin HARKIN was one of many publicans who held short term leases from the freehold owner, Mr J HOLLAND, J.P. of Heidelberg prior to my family purchasing the freehold in 1903 and selling it in 1978. Austin only held the lease a for a few months.
http://heritage.darebinlibraries.vic.gov.au/article/729
http://heritage.darebinlibraries.vic.gov.au/article/228
Nora's father was Augustus O'LOUGHLAN and mother Anne DRONY.
Cando
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http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10319502
The Argus 14 May 1904
Deaths
GRIFFEY.—On the 13th May, at his residence,163 Eastern-road, South Melbourne, Patrick Griffey, native of "Kilnamona," county of Clare, Ireland, relict of the late Nancy Griffey, and dearly loved father of Katie, and beloved step-father of Mrs. Harkin, Royal Derby Hotel.
Cando
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Nora's father was Augustus O'LOUGHLAN and mother Anne DRONY.
Cando
Sorry Cando, now I'm confused.
Are you suggesting (I know, I need to buy more certificates to prove it) Michael O'Loughlan and Nora Crowley/Harkin/O'Loughlin were brother/sister or cousins? The records indicate her father was Austin Harkin (I know...) so where did this reference for O'Loughlan come from? Perhaps her mother remarried???
Is the Mrs Harkin referred to in the death notice of GRIFFEY referring to Mrs Austin Harkin seeing as they seem to be buried together in the Melbourne General Cemetery? The site I found this morning stated half the tombstone was for Austin and Margaret Crowley and this Patrick and Nancy Griffey - whose names I have not come across before.
This is doing my head in trying to piece the Harkin and O'Loughlin's together...
When I convince myself I need to purchase Michael and Nora's marriage certificate it had better have some details on it! Knowing my luck it will all be "unknown".
Edit: typo
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When I convince myself I need to purchase Michael and Nora's marriage certificate it had better have some details on it! Knowing my luck it will all be "unknown".
May I please ask why you would anticipate a marriage certificate for a marriage registered in Victoria would have "unknown" recorded instead of actual details?
Here's the RChat link to what to expect on a Vic BDM civil marriage cert. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
I gently note that it was a requirement of Victoria's statute law that the clergy record the details, and basically if the bride or groom were unable to supply the details, then the clergy were not meant to conduct the marriage ceremony ..... they could be sent to gaol .... clergy don't anticipate becoming convicted persons .... The Vic BDM marriage cert that I hold for a ceremony conducted in the 1860s is so very detailed. Right down to the name of the very small village in a county of England for the birth place one of the party, and to an even smaller location in Switizerland for the birth place for the other party.... All the details for both sets of parents, and the names of the witnesses (family members) ..... very detailed.... and as per Victoria's own Parliament's statute law applying at that time. All my family members that have sighted that image are mightily impressed with the 1860s practices that were in place in the Colony of Victoria.
Cheers, JM
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Sorry, I just consider $24 to be a lot of money for an instant download of an already scanned document.
Can any of this be viewed at a physical location (i.e. public library or Public Records Office)?
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May I please ask why you would anticipate a marriage certificate for a marriage registered in Victoria would have "unknown" recorded instead of actual details?
Here's the RChat link to what to expect on a Vic BDM civil marriage cert. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
Sorry, I just consider $24 to be a lot of money for an instant download of an already scanned document.
Can any of this be viewed at a physical location (i.e. public library or Public Records Office)?
What would you expect to be recorded as 'unknown' on the Vic BDM's $24 image of the marriage cert?
I think $24 is a reasonable price to pay for first hand information. Just as well you are not anticipating purchasing certificates from Western Australia's BDM .....
Have you asked Vic BDM if you can view these directly?
Cheers, JM
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For your interest from Melbourne General Cemetery Monumental Inscription.
GRIFFEY
(Left )
Cherished memories of our dear parents
Austin and Margaret HARKIN
also our beloved sisters
Kathleen, Constance and Annie
and fond aunt
Katie O'CONNOR
R.I.P.
(Right )
In loving memory of
Patrick and Nancy GRIFFEY
also the HARKIN family
R.I.P.
Sue
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Marriage of Margaret and Austin
HARKIN Austin
MADDIGAN Maggie (born Ireland)
Year 1874
Reg 1832
Birth-
HARKIN Austin
Father Austin
Mother Maggie MADDIGAN
Birth Place CA RL
Year 1878
Reg 21371
Sue
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Here is the death of Maggie HARKIN
Margt HARKIN
Aged 70
At Fitzroy, Victoria
Father Henry MADIGAN
Mother E Annie OLOUGHLIN
Year1923
Reg 5677
Sue
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I don't expect anything. Murphy's Law. I was merely implying that if I couldn't figure it out without the certificate (or at least a reasonable theory), what are the chances that it holds no new information?
I absolutely appreciate all the efforts that people have gone to reply and piece the bits together for me. I don't have unlimited funds, I am not a paid member of any genealogy sites. I understand this is serious business for some and people spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars researching. I am just reluctant to spend too much money - but knowing me it will bug me to the point I give in and buy it anyway.
Thanks Sue - another link to the O'Loughlin's...
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Thanks Sue - another link to the O'Loughlin's...
Just to be sure ;)
You do see the link now don't you.
Mrs( E Anne/ Nancy) GRIFFEY was nee OLOUGHLIN and formerly MADIGAN
Her daughter Margaret (Maggie), born in Ireland, married the younger Austin HARKIN.
Sue
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Nora's father was Augustus O'LOUGHLAN and mother Anne DRONY.
Cando
In my experience on the Aust. Board, I think this finding will likely be strongly based.
Many here have resources which are not generally available.
I cannot even suggest the origins of the above, but who knows ;D perhaps the hints about certificates may pay off for you.
Sue
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I don't have unlimited funds, I am not a paid member of any genealogy sites.
You are certainly not alone ::) ;)
So now the mystery of why Honora used a mixture of Harkin and Oloughlin?
ONCE ONLY... ::) and how do you know she was the informant on the child's death certificate?
Birth
CROWLEY Anne
Father Michael Mother Hanorah OLOUGHLEN
At Carlton 1877 Reg#13919
Death
CROWLEY Annie
Father Michael Mother Hanora HARKINS
1877 3 months Born Carlton Reg#10316
There is no way you can view a certificate, or in this case a page in the register, other than to purchase the image.
We can only help you so much so it's up to you now after all it is your family history.
And that's it from me :)
Cando
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I don't expect anything. Murphy's Law. I was merely implying that if I couldn't figure it out without the certificate (or at least a reasonable theory), what are the chances that it holds no new information?
However, that is not what you wrote .... You clearly wrote
.......
When I convince myself I need to purchase Michael and Nora's marriage certificate it had better have some details on it! Knowing my luck it will all be "unknown".
The chances are that WITHOUT that marriage certificate you will not ever have certain knowledge provided first hand from the bride and the groom about what information they knew about their own parents.
May I assure you that I do not spend thousands, nor hundreds of dollars on my hobby, family history in any year.
But IF I do consider I need a piece of information (for example details about a person's parents), and if they were married in Victoria, after 1853, then I would certainly purchase their marriage certificate, as it is FIRST HAND information, given by both parties to the marriage usually to a clergyman who conducts the ceremonies (civil and religious, combined as though one ceremony). In that era, giving untruthful information to a clergyman was considered extremely significant, regardless of the denomination. Simply put, "one did not tell fibs to one's local clergyman"... "Hellfire and brimstone" were words associated with outcomes to those who fibbed ... I place greater reliance on information provided on a Victorian marriage certificate from the second half of the 19th century than I would on many a newspaper cutting from the "family notices" section of any newspaper.
Without the information about the parents of the bride and the groom, as provided on that marriage certificate, HOW CAN you have confidence that your research is getting you back to the actual grandparents generation of the bride and the groom... Are you expecting to have a family history tree that you may eventually share with current and/or future family members? To me, the question becomes .... Do you want to be known as the fh buff or the fh buffoon.... Of course, it is your family history, so it is up to you to determine what you want to record, how you want to record it, what you want to research and what you want to do with your findings.
Cheers, JM
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Curiosity got the better of me.
1863 Marriage certificate.
Hanora O'loughlin (18yrs; spinster; servant) parents: Augustus OLoughlin (farmer) and Anne Drony.
Michael Crawley (25yrs; bachelor; miner) parents: Bartholomew Crawley (farmer) and Mary Leary.
Thank you to everyone for your assistance :)
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Hi there,
And the name of the person giving consent to an 18 year old marrying ?
And the places of birth?
And the witnesses were?
And the denomination and clergyman?
And the date and place of the ceremony?
And the usual address of the parties?
All are clues for advancing your quest.
Cheers, JM
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Re: information contained...
As far as permission, it just has "Consent of bride's parents granted" written across the bottom section.
Places of birth was as before - Co Cork and Co Clare Ireland - No place names.
I can only read one of the witness names, I can't make out the other which is annoying. It could be something O'Loughlin but I can't be 100% sure.
Roman Catholic rites and Clergyman Patrick Kavanagh was the officiating minister.
Usual address for both is listed as "B.B Creek" - at the time it was a small mining area near Woods Point.
I also can't make out the name of the person whose residence they had their wedding at which might hold something.
Should I post a picture of the 2 names I can't make out in the Handwriting section of the forum to see if someone else can make it out?
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Hi Ray,
Why not post the picture of the names here first and give us a go. :)
cheers,
Ros
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Married at the residence of:
Mr John Heffernan (my guess?)
In the presence of:
John McGrath
and
Catherine O'Loughlin (my guess?)
The more I stare at it the more I think I can see...
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The word JERICHO is bracketed off after HEFFERNAN
Sue
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Does anyone else think the word after the bracketed Jericho looks like an abbreviation of the word Guardian? It is underlined as if important.
Thus reading-
"John Heffernan (Jericho) Gudn.."
It seems odd that the document according to RayWitt's reading, states "consent of parents given"
If that were the case, then of course my attempt at reading the word as Guardian is incorrect. There would not be need for a guardian (would there ???)
However, I see no record for Augustus O'LOUGHLIN. Nora's father in Victoria.
I do not agree with you RayWitt on the second witness signature. I do not see LOUGHLIN
I see the surname BRIEN.
Sue
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=727767.0
I posted on the OPs Irish thread re Augustus O'Loughlin.
I agree with you Sue, that there would be no need for a Guardian if the document reads "consent of parents given". I am actually somewhat taken back that it reads 'parents' rather than one person's name, and their relationship to the bride.... To me, 'consent of parents given' is possibly (ummm.... likely) indicating that the bride's parents attended the wedding, so they had migrated too. I am particularly surprised by the 'plural' .... the requirement for consent was and is for the person giving consent to be named, their relationship to be recorded.... I too have not found any record for Augustus (father of the bride) in Victoria. The consent of persons entering a marriage contract and who have reached their majority of course is obvious because they sign. The consent for persons who have not yet reached their majority is needed to validate that signature. The consent can be written (in which case the clergy may note it as 'written consent of ......." or it can be verbal, during the ceremony itself.
Yes, as to the second witness, I too see the surname as BRIEN.
I would anticipate there are other marriage registrations on that same double page document. Perhaps the witness signature matches other signatures on that page.
Cheers, JM
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The word after (Jericho) is Jordan. I didn't think to look, but it is also written at the top of the page as to the district (printed "Marriages solemnized in the district of" and then handwritten in the same hand is "Jordan").
Their marriage is at the top of the registry page, and the one under theirs was not until the next month at Mansfield. I don't know if it is purely coincidence or somewhat interesting that the groom of the following wedding was William Harris and he lists his parents as Stephen HARRIS and Helen HARKEN/HARKIN, although it states he (William) was born in England so perhaps a family connection is unlikely.
Someone PM'd me re:Augustus and suggested maybe his name was Augustine or Austin as Augustus didn't sound right for Ireland in the mid 1800's. Regardless, it looks very much like Augustus to me on the marriage certificate - whether this is because he was not known by his real name or perhaps a misprint by the record keeper (the clergyman?).
Interesting you say about the consent, that perhaps they were present or perhaps they had written a letter to inform of their consent, but I'm 99% sure the word after the brackets is Jordan, not Guardn or a reference to him being Honora's guardian. If Honora was a servant, as is listed on the certificate, wouldn't that indicate she was living away from home? Or not necessarily?
I've attached the section at the bottom - next to the name of the person's residence - where the consent is written. I see "parents" but maybe there is no "S" at the end.
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I agree with you, the word after Jericho is Jordan. So that is one matter clarified!
If Honora was a servant, as is listed on the certificate, wouldn't that indicate she was living away from home? Or not necessarily?
I've attached the section at the bottom - next to the name of the person's residence - where the consent is written. I see "parents" but maybe there is no "S" at the end.
Whether or not she was living away from home has no bearing on her status as a minor and therefore requiring consent to be married.
Sue
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Yes, you needed to be aged 21 years or more before you were legally able to give your own consent to enter into a marriage contract. You did not need consent from BOTH parents. You only needed consent from one of them, your father, and IF he was not available, that SHOULD be noted on the registration, and the next available person providing consent would likely be the bride's mother. I have seen where an adult brother gave consent (although mother present, father deceased, adult male took legal precedent over adult female), and also in instances in the 1860s when NO parents were in the colony, where the clergyman recorded "by consent of friends"....
To me, the clergyman was of the view that the bride's parents had given him (the clergyman) consent to the marriage, ie they were present at least at an interview with him prior to his agreeing to conduct the marriage ceremony. You need to remember that once civil registration commences, that the ceremony is in fact TWO ceremonies, running concurrently. One is the civil process and one is the religious process. The clergy were answerable to both Church law (of their respective denomination) and to civil statute law. Statute Law penalty was likely to be two years in gaol for perjury.
Cheers, JM
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http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/images/1853/V/A/6.pdf
I am not as familiar with Victoria's statute law re marriages as I am with NSW, but I am confident that the about link will take you to the first of the civil laws in respect of Victoria's BDM. That law commences and takes effect from and after the thirty-first day of March, 1853.
Cheers, JM
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After a bit of a break from thinking about this family I've reread through the posts and come up with a theory.
Could Anne DRONEY - Norah's mother, have been first married to her father Augustine/Augustus O'LOUGHLIN, then Austin HARKIN (if Ausin is her half brother he is younger than Norah), then Michael MORONEY (they were married in 1863 and Anne was approx 46yrs old)?
I need to do some more digging.
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I just purchased Anne Moroney's death certificate as I was sure she was Hanora's mother.
I can't quite make out the names at the top of the children, but it does list Hanora, Austin and then 2 more sons who were deceased.
So is there no Augustine O'Loughlin? Is Augustine O'Loughlin, Austin Harkin?
Anyone want to have a go at decoding?
Born Clare Ireland, been in Australia 40 years, married Austin Harkin (former/farmer?) and Michael Moroney.
By _?_
_?_
Hanora
Austin
John (dec)
James (dec)
Informant was the son, Austin.
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Hi Ray,
Sorry I didn't see this in 2015, I could have advised Michael Crowley who came out on the Golconda, stayed in NSW and married in Wollongong. He died in 1915.
As for your certificate it reads Austin Harkin former husband.
Above the first two children's names was written "by former husband"
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Sherryl