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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: MaryThorn on Wednesday 29 July 15 19:40 BST (UK)
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I know my 4 x Great grandparents ended up in Blyth/Cowpen and from census returns I know they came from Ireland. What I can't find is when they came to England from Ireland and from which part in Ireland they originated. I've tried passenger and migration lists on Ancestry and Findmypast and can't find any record of them. Has anyone successfully traced ancestors back to Ireland and how easy was it to find these records?
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Ireland was part of the U.K. so no records were kept of people travelling between Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales.
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When do you have them in the North East?
For instance I have some who came in the late 1880s, by looking at the birthplaces given on census returns I can see 'roughly' when they arrived (last one born in Ireland, first one to be born in England)
You are vey unlikely to find passenger lists as they were going from one part of the UK to another so those records either weren't kept or haven't survived.
Irish census returns 1901 and 1911 are online.
The National Library of Ireland have recently released images of RC parish records for free online, varies from county to county, but generally up to early 1880s .
http://registers.nli.ie
http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ have civil index records for free and 'some' counties parish records are searchable.
For more definitive advice I'd suggest asking about specifics in the Ireland boards.
Good luck with it, slowly buy surely more and more Irish records are becoming available, but (in my opinion) its not easy or straightforward.
Boo
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You are vey unlikely to find passenger lists as they were going from one part of the UK to another so those records either weren't kept or haven't survived.
Ireland was part of the U.K. so no records were kept of people travelling between Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales.
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Thanks for that both of you.
My 3 x great grandmother was born circa 1835 and census returns just have her as Ireland. Her son my 2 x great grandfather was born in 1856 and census returns have him down as being born in Scotland, although one return list his birth as Falkirk (not found it yet) laster siblings were born in the North East. I suppose I nee to work through an awful lot of names to see if I can narrow them down.
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I would follow up on the Scottish birth- if he was actually born in 1855 then there's a tremendous amount of detail on the certificate- including date and place of parents' marriage which could provide a starting point for Irish searches.
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Hello! One possible way of finding where in Ireland they were born is to find MI (tombstones) for them. Many of the Irish from that era were fiercely proud of their home parish and/or county and had that listed on their tombstones. You may have some measure of success as an 1835 birth in Ireland indicates the family was present there for some part, at least, of the potato famine. Good luck! patrexjax
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I was hoping that the Scottish birth would help but so far looking at online records I can't find him despite the census saying Falkirk.
I'll look into the gravestones idea too, thanks for that tip.
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Scotland's People (pay per view) is the place to search for the Scottish borth.
You haven't given us any names yet so if you want to post the details you found so far we might be able to help you.
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I'll try and look at Scotland's People.
The people I'm looking for are:
Listed in the 1871 census at New York, Murton
James Dayley 1831 Ireland
Mary Dayley 1835 Ireland
John Dayley 1855 Scotland
listed in 1861 census at New York, Murton
Morton Shirlock 1799 Ireland
James Daily 1831 (son in law) Ireland
Mary Daily 1834 Ireland
John Gordon Daily 1855 Scotland
The 1881 census has Mary and John in Cowpen and has John listed as Falkirk for his place of birth.
The family name used more recently is Daley.
Many thanks for the help.
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I looked at Scotlands People and I can't see a likely birth in the statutory registers.
Civil registration only started in Scotland in 1855 and though it was a legal requirement to register a birth then, some (especially the newly arrived) may not have complied.
Certainly in England, when civil registration started in 1837, though the law said you should register a birth, it took a while to catch on :-)
Boo
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Some Roman Catholic Church registers ( in England) record the county of residence in Ireland e.g. of parents of the brides and grooms. You can sometimes get pleasant surprises in baptism registers also. Murton is in Tynemouth parish. See Genuki for possible RC churches. Some years ago I looked at the films for St Cuthberts and from memory (always fallible) I am pretty sure the register quite often gave the counties.
http://www.genuki.bpears.org.uk/NBL/Tynemouth/tynnconf.html
You can order films of the registers to view in a LDS family history centre. See the on line film catalogue www.familysearch.org which also gives locations of family history centres. Cheap and easy once you learn the drill, and you can pick up whole families from a film if they stayed in one place for long enough.
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Have you looked in Scotland and Ireland for a marriage between Mary Shirlock and James Dayley?
Going by census dates, John Gordon could well have been born in 1854 just before civil registration in Scotland started. Scotlandspeople has RC records though I don't know how complete they are.
Does John Gordon survive until 1911? The householders forms survive for that census and he may given more specific info.
Given the occupations in the census you would be v lucky to find a monumental inscription as many working people could not afford gravestones, and tended to be buried in shared graves.
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I've tried looking quickly for Mary and James marriages but only looked at British records on Findmypast so I'll try a worldwide search to see if it includes any Seperately held Irish records.
It's a slightly confusing family really because John died in 1892 but didn't marry his wife until a few months before his death. On the 1881 census his children are a their grandmothers address with their mother and are listed under their mothers maiden name.
In the 1891 census his wife and children are listed under his surname despite them not marrying for another year so I'm note sure if there is a pattern in the family of calling themselves by their partners name despite a marriage not taking place.
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Irish civil registration of Catholic marriages started 1864 (from 1845 for non-Catholic ones)- see Irish civil registration index-
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1408347
For earlier dates you need to search for church records.
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Try here http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ though check out coverage
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As SelDen mentioned earlier, some North-East parish priests added additional info
on baptisms and marriages.
eg home parish in Ireland, maiden names of bride and groom and both their parents.
Myself I got a nice surprise on C1891 when my great grandfather, instead of just " born Ireland" in previous censuses, was listed as born Co Sligo.
Trivia: I was baptised at St Cuthberts, Cowpen
Michael
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Some baptisms on Familysearch.
At St. Cuthberts RC, North Shields :
Maria Anna Daly, baptized 9 Jan 1859. Parents Jacobi Daly & Maria Sherlock.
Catharina Daly, baptized 7 July 1861. Parents Jacobi Daly & Mariae Sherlock.
At Our Lady & St. Aidens RC, Willington Quay.
Jacobus Daley, born 2 June 1866, baptized 2 Sep 1866. Parents Jacobi Daley & Marioe Sherlock Daley.
Hellena Daley, born 22 Sep 1868, baptized 25 Oct 1868. Parents Jacobi Daley & Marioe Sherlock Daley.
Antonii Daley, born 2 May 1871, baptized 25 June 1871. Parents Jacobi Daley & Marioe Sherlock Daley.
Both sets of records are at the Tyne and Wear Archives, Blandford Square, Newcastle. Might give more info.
Alan.
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A marriage, Tynemouth Dec qtr 1857, James Daly and Mary Gardner.
North Tyneside Registrars website has the brides fathers surname as Sherlock. Means that Mary Gardner was a widow, formerly Mary Sherlock.
So I think you are probably looking for a John Gardner baptism in Falkirk.
Alan.
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Wow Wolfie
Thank you so much for that, I've spent the last 2 nights trawling through on line records and getting no where.
I presume the spelling of the names in the Roman Catholic registers is Latin. It makes a little more sense, I know from family that the family where from Ireland and my Grandad refused to let my mum be brought up Catholic because he hated his childhood brought up in a strict "High Church" family.
Interestingly, if Johns mother was widowed after his birth we were never Daleys in the first place.
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Dear Mary,
Don't lose heart! I've found quite a lot of information. I am fortunate that many of my folks were long-lived, which meant there were more records. Anyway, this is as far as I've got:
Carefully reading census images gave the townland and county of three of my relatives (Newport and Longford in Mayo, and Belfast). Once people filled the census forms in themselves, rather than telling a stranger, they added more information, I found.
This information is not always transcribed, in fact it was often crossed out by enumerators, so looking at the microfilms of the originals is more useful than simply going by the typed transcripts.
I found the baptisms of my Roscommon ancestors on Familysearch a few years ago. I picked the person with the most unusual name (so not Bridget or Patrick) and searched as many variations as I could think of until one turned up. Then I found all the other siblings. Their ages all fitted with the English censuses. I searched for Rose Patterson. Eventually I found Rozam Patterson and that was her. This took a lot of trials of different surname and first name/ initial combinations. Be patient! This then told me that they were from Ardcarn in Roscommon.
I'd advise you to have a look at some lists of Latin versions of Irish/English names. I searched forever for an ancestor called Owen before realising he was down as Eugenius. Please note that Patrick is often written as Patt, and Bridget as Biddy or Bidy.
I found the county of origin of one of my ancestors by getting a transcript from the old people's home he lived in; he was born in Co Galway in the 1830's . The home was run by the Little Sisters of the poor and closed in Sunderland only in the last few years. I found him on the census there in 1911. I asked them for his records and they also came up with the names of both his parents. So if they lived in an institution run by a catholic religious order I'd suggest you follow it up.
I think another part of my family are from Monaghan. I noticed that the same informant cropped up on a lot of death certificates and it said on one he was a brother in law. Anyway, I looked at the censuses for this person, who was from Monaghan. I have not yet followed up this lead.
If you manage to find a county, you can try the local records. A lovely American correspondent of mine, whom I found through Ancestry, tells me that the various Family History Centres (each county has one) are very helpful. I haven't tried them yet. She deals with them by email.
You could also search the Irish Tithe Applotments and the Griffith Valuation databases. I've tried to include links and my iPad won't let me, but Google them and have a look.
The National Library of Ireland has just published a load of Catholic parish records between about 1830 and 1880. You can't search them but have to trawl through the register pages. These are interesting - often the priest annotates the records with subsequent deaths of marriages. I found my 4x great grandfather there yesterday (yay!).
Sometimes, your relatives' names can lead you to a particular region. For example, from my family, the name Wafer is pretty unusual and mostly confined to wexford. Coyne is much more common in the West of Ireland, especially Galway. I gather that the name Lavelle is confined nearly entirely to Mayo. Names that sound more Scottish (in my case McAllister) tend to be nearer to the North of Ireland. I have also noticed that some first names are more common in some areas - this is not at all scientific- there are a lot more Honors and Winifreds in the West of Ireland than in Wexford and a lot more Anastatias in Wexford than in Mayo. There seem to me to be more people with Irish names (eg Tadgh, Sabby, etc) in the West than the East. There is a website called youririshheritage.com that shares information on surnames. It's very chatty and not really my style, but they email tens of thousands of people their newsletter every week, so they must be doing something right. There are other more factual websites too.
You could try putting names into the Irish 1901 and 1911 census (free online) - you may find a load of people with the same names all living in one area, which could be a lead.
There is a pay website rootsireland.ie that has some records. It used to cost FIVE EURO PER VIEW (yes, really). I think the membership payment structure is different now. I don't use it because when I last looked they didn't have wexford records, which is what I needed t the time. I did find one baptism (Belfast) on there that was very useful, but I can't really comment on it. Perhaps other members can.
This has all taken FOREVER, but it was worth it for me. Now O have the counties and some parishes I can move forward, I hope.
I have also decided that, since I may not be able to go back much further, I will read up on the local history of the counties from which my relatives came to try to get close to them that way.
I hope it works out for you.
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