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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: meljade on Monday 20 July 15 12:24 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I'm trying to solve a mystery about an elusive family member Harriet Tarrant. She died in 1921 aged 68 in Peckham. She was born approx 1853, although could be as early as 1841 if one of her census ages is to be believed, birth place could be either Devon or London (gained from the censuses). She had 6 children that I'm aware of, however on the children's birth certificates she gives up to 3 different names - Baxter/Bray and Goldspring.
Her first marriage to Robert Lamb (unable to find any marriage dates) yielded a daughter Mary Ann in 1875, she lists her surname as Baxter. Robert died in 1881 (Foxes Buildings, Southwark where they were living). Robert Lamb is listed as a Fish Curer on his death cert. She then went on to marry Thomas Tarrant (also living in Foxes Buildings) and had 5 children - William George b 1883 (surname listed as Lamb, obviously from the previous relationship), Robert b 1885 and George b 1887 (surname listed as Goldspring), Harriet b 1889 and Emily b 1890 (surname listed as Bray). I have been unable to find a marriage for Harriet and Thomas Tarrant (although according to their 1911 listed they would have married around 1883) I'm at a loss as to why there are so many surnames. I have been unable to find any Harriet's which match any of the information I have so far, not even a close match.
Is it possible she never married either Robert or Thomas? or could a marriage be listed somewhere other than the GRO? Is it possible the person entering the details got the surnames mixed up (all certificates Harriet was the informant but was only 'marked' with an X) so she couldn't read I'm assuming. I have looked online for data/clues as to how I might solve this mystery (unfortunately I don't live in England) to search parish registers or original documents. Is it possible she was hiding something with all the name changes? Does anyone have any theories or info which might help? I'm at a loss at the moment.
Many Thanks Mel
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Have you got birth certificates for the children with different names - could they be middle names put down as surnames?
I can see from census 1891 on they are all down as Tarrant and daughter Harriet marries with the surname Tarrant.
Bit of a mystery :-\
Added oh I've just got what you meant, it's the mother Harriet with all the different surnames on the births not the children is that right?
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One theory is that she probably wasnt educated, and had lived with several people before marrying Tarrant (or living with him, of not married) .
When registering her childrens births and was asked her maiden name, she didnt know what that meant and gave either previous names she had used, or the surname of that childs father.
If Tarrant is the father of the children in question, then it must be that she just doesnt know what her maiden name was. Maybe she herself had a series of step fathers and used different names at different times.
Another possibility is that Thomas lived with a couple of different Harrietts over the years, so they would have different maiden names.
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What name did she put for the first child - possibly that was the accurate one but not finding any matches for her under those names either :-\
Thomas born 1875 Bermondsey seems to be the oldest per the 1891 census - guess he was a Lamb but is not on the 1881 with Harriet and daughter Mary Ann.
This one - Thomas Charles Lamb Dec 1876 St Olave or he could have another surname.
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Anyone found them in 1881?
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1881 is under Lamb - Harriet 28 widow born London and daughter Mary Ann 5 born London.
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So Harriet(t) is:
28 b London in 1881 (as Lamb)
46 b Devonshire in 1891 (as Tarrant)
60 b Devonshire (parish NK) in 1901 (as Tarrant)
56 b Devonshire in 1911 (as Tarrant, free index)
68 at death in 1921 (as Tarrant)
So if you take out the 1901 age as an outlier, a birthdate of 1852-1855 looks likely, probably in Devon. If Harriet was from a travelling community (both "husbands" are described as hawkers at one time or another), or from a family which was only in Devon early in her childhood, that may explain why her birth parish was not known when she was an adult.
Was Thomas married before? There's a 16 yr old son Thomas with them in 1891.
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Could Thomas not be Harrietts?
But a child of Thomas - there is a chr of a Thomas Tarrant to aThomas and Elizabeth in ,I think it wasNewington, silly me has closed the page now!
Modified to add
Here we are
St Mary Newington
Born 25 Feb 1875
Christened 21 March 1875
Thomas Tarrant
Parents Thomas and Elizabeth
7 Warner Street
Hawker
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Hi, yes Thomas was married prior to Harriet. First wife Elizabeth Perkins. 3 children from that union- Thomas, Elizabeth and Sarah. In the 1881 census they are living in foxes buildings but Thomas had been listed as "farrant" widower.
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Oops forgot to mention his first name was also listed as James, but it is the correct person, all other family members fit with what I have.
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Hmm, can anybody track this "Harriet Baxter aka Banks"?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVZ4-D5S
Also possibly of interest:
a Sarah Goldspring aged 29 died in St. Olave in late 1871 (can't see her on census?)
When first child Mary was born in 1875, was the address still Foxes Buildings? Was the same address listed as place of birth and resident of informant?
Any signs of other Lamb children between 1875 and Robert Lamb's death in 1881? (perhaps died young?)
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Hmm, can anybody track this "Harriet Baxter aka Banks"?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVZ4-D5S
She was (at marriage, St Olave Southwark on 27.12.1872) Harriett Baxter, 46, widow, of Boston Lincs. Father was Henry Banks, a master mariner.
Her bridegroom Isaac Whiten was a 53 yr old widowed master mariner, of 4 Tooley St.
Harriet may have been widowed within a few years, as we then see Harriet Whiten, 48, daughter of Henry Banks, marrying John Kennington Carrott in Skirbeck Lincs on 25 December 1877.
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Also possibly of interest:
a Sarah Goldspring aged 29 died in St. Olave in late 1871 (can't see her on census?)
She was buried at Victoria Park Cemetery on 14 October 1871 - abode "Guy's Hospital".
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All of the birth certificates of Harriett's children have the same address listed for both the birth and informant address -
Mary Ann Lamb 1875 - 1 foxes buildings (1st marriage to Robert Lamb)
William George 1883 -16 foxes buildings (2nd marriage to Thomas Tarrant)
Robert 1885 - 16 foxes buildings
George Edward 1887- 16 foxes buildings (died in infancy)
Harriet Rebecca 1889 - 276 commercial rd (family moved to peckham)
Emily Rebecca 1891 - 276 commercial rd
Elizabeth Tarrant (Thomas's first wife died at 16 foxes buildings)
I have not been able to identify any other children to Robert and Harriet Lamb other than Mary. There certainly could be more who either died or were not listed with Harriet on the 1881 census however short of buying birth certificates to get parent names i'm not sure whether I will be able to find this out. Unfortunately Robert Lamb has been just as elusive as Harriett to track down. Most Robert Lamb's I have found have been eliminated as possibilities. There is a Robert Lamb on the 1871 census living in Mint st which could be him but I have not been able to find anything which matches with this entry. Robert George Lamb (as listed on Mary Ann's birth certificate) died just before the 1881 census at 8 foxes buildings, aged 29, with Harriett Lamb present at death. He is listed as a Fish curer.
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Hi
There are reports in a few newspapers in November 1876 about a death in London.
Beginning of one -
Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser
20 November 1876
THE ALLEGED MURDER IN LONDON
Mr. J. W. Payne, coroner for the City and Southwark, held an inquest on Saturday in the Board-room, at St. George's Workhouse, Mint-Street, Borough, on the body of Mrs. Mary Ann Hunter, residing at No. 40, Kent-street, Borough.
Harriet Lamb said she resided at No. 1, Fox Buildings, Borough. She identified the deceased as her mother. On Wednesday last deceased called at her house. She was very intoxicated. Witness's father was dead, and deceased lived with a man called Rowland.
Susan Hill was sworn and deposed that she resided at 40, Kent-street. She knew the deceased.....
John
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What a brilliant find, John.
Further on in the reports: "Edward Rowland, a licensed hawker, said he lived with the deceased..."
The coroner's jury was in the end unable to establish how Mary Ann Hunter received her fatal wound (she was aged 68, according to the Dec qtr 1876 death registration, St Saviour).
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This is absolutely fabulous. Are these newspaper reports online, if so what website? After about 15 years of searching I had just about given up! Perhaps this has something to do with all the name changes. Will need to spend some time on this to see how it connects and to digest it all.
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You can see the newspaper reports for yourself on Findmypast or its sister site, the British Newspaper Archive. Both require payment.
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You might still be able to get three page views/downloads for free when you register for the BNA though? You used to be able to anyway.
Looking again at those reports, another mystery, sorry about this -
The story is in a few papers, certainly two Manchester ones, one in Yorkshire, and an Edinburgh paper as well, and is much the same in each if not identical.
However, there is also a report in The Daily News, 20 Nov 1876
This one says, under "Alleged Murder in the Borough"
On Saturday morning Mr. Payne opened an enquiry at the St. George's workhouse, Mint-street, into the cause of death of Mary Pratt, aged 55. Harriet Lamb said deceased was her mother, and was the widow of a tinker and grinder, and lived with a man called Edward Rowland, at 40, Kent-street. She gave way occasionally to habits of drunkenness..........She, Rowland, and a man named Gumble, used to travel the country together.
And there is a death in Dec 1876, St Saviour of a Mary Pratt, age 55!
Have they mixed up to two different inquests? Where would they get a different name from?
I think Mary Ann Hunter is probably the right person, but best if you can get to see those different reports yourself!
John
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Curiouser and curiouser!
I would be inclined to think the London paper (Daily News) is more likely than the others to have got its facts right, as the story may well have been written by someone who attended the inquest. An error may have crept into the (less detailed) syndicated story reported in the provincial papers.
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I fear these people with their itinerant lifestyles may be tricky to trace over time.
One witness mentioned is Caroline Brewington, a paramour of James Gumble. She may be the same Caroline Brewington (b 1845, hawker) who was admitted to Newington workhouse on 20 Jan 1877, together with Phoebe Brewington (b 1875). Vagrancy records from the same time also show a 4-yr-old Thomas Brewington with them.
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The Gumbles (James 45 b Essex, Caroline 40 b Chatham Kent, plus children including Thomas & Phoebe, all enumerated as Gumble rather than Brewington) can be found in a "Gypsey Tent" on waste land west of Dartmouth Park Hill in 1881. District is St Pancras. There are several Gumbles in neighbouring tents too.
If James Gumble could be found in 1871 it may help in tracing Edward 'Ned' Rowland and possibly also Mary and Harriet. Travelling people, however, were very often missed by the census.
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My very brief look so far for a Mary Ann Pratt, Harriett Pratt (if this indeed was her maiden name) and Edward Rowland has yielded very little - perhaps more questions now! There was a Mary Ann Hunter that died also in Dec 1876 however she was listed as age 68. Perhaps this is how some of the newspapers became confused.
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She was just Mary Pratt rather than Mary Ann, according to the report and the death registration. But I agree they are thoroughly elusive ???
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Hi
I think avm228 was right, Mary Pratt, not Mary Ann Hunter!
Southwark inquests for that time survive and are at the LMA, I believe. I know there is a microfilm index to them, which I once looked at (didn't find anyone I was interested in)
Sensation!!
The story is online, with a photograph - they claim its Mary Pratt sitting on the steps of caravan in Battersea, shortly before she was murdered.
‘That’s old Mary Pradd, wot was murdered in the Borough’
can be found here -
https://historyhackblog.wordpress.com/tag/kent-street/
Could Edward Rowland have been in Battersea in 1871, living in a tent? Age 60, Hawker, born Kent. He had a wife and daughter with him.
John
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John you are on a roll - finding a photo is just fabulous!
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Yes I think Edward Rowland (Rowling in 1861) b abt 1811-1815 Canterbury must be the one. There is a 10 Mar 1816 Canterbury baptism for an Edward Rowland.
His daughter Rachael, 16 in 1871, appears to have gone on to marry (as Rachael Rolling) to John "Gumball", son of James, in 1874. They appear, as Gumble, in caravans in Putney in 1881.
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I think the Gumbles are GUMBRIL in 1871 (A*try)-James born 1835 Greenstead,Kent-but it doesn't look as though otheers of interest are with them.
Fabulous finds on this one! Well done-especially John.
Maureen
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This is quite amazing, thanks John. It is interesting that the Gumble's and Rowland's are able to be tracked down over the decades despite the name changes but still nothing coming up for Mary and Harriett Pratt/Lamb. I have managed to find a link for the digital copy of John Thomson, Victorian London Street Life in Historic Photographs (1877) in case people are interested to read the whole chapter on London Nomades.
http://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/collections/streetlifeinlondon
l may need to purchase Mary's death certificate in hope there maybe some small clues.
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I've found 40 Kent Street in the 1871 census: RG10/598/103/10.
Disappointingly there are no familiar names there. Two families are at the address; one headed by Charles Gould, a chair maker, and the other by Peter Daley, a shoe maker. I cannot easily see relevant people in the vicinity either, though I can't guarantee they are not there (the enumerator's handwriting is challenging, to say the least!).
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Could this be Mary in 1871, minus Harriet? With Brays and Goldspinks/Goldsprings
piece 743 folio 48 page 34
St Paul Deptford
25 Charles St
Henry Goldspink Head Widr 31 Labourer not employed Norfolk Diss
Sarah Bray (no rel) Unm 28 House Keeper Kent Deptford
Mary Pratt Wifes Mother Wid 46 Hawking Pedlar Plextall? Kent (Plaxtol?)
Charles Pratt Wifes Brother Unm 17 Hawking Pedlar Middlesex Whitechapel
Henry Goldspink Son 4 Scholar Kent Deptford
Emily Bray Dau 3 Kent Deptford
Thomas Goldspink Son 10m Kent Deptford
The ten month old boy may have been registered as Goldspring?
Sep 1870 Greenwich
Goldspring, Thomas
And baptized in Deptford, 1 June 1870, parents Henry + Sarah, abode 25 Charles St
John
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John, you're a genius :)
I wonder whether Sarah Bray is the person who died as Sarah Goldspring aged 29 in St Olave later in 1871 (as previously found by jorose, reply #10)?
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1861 - lodgers at 2 Wilson's Place, Spitalfields: RG 9/266/84/24.
Aaron PRATT Mar 39 Tinman & brazier Herts Ware
Mary do Mar 40 Chair caner Kent Plaxtol
Chas do 8 Scholar Middlesex Spitalfields
Harriet do 6 Kent Deptford
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Aaron PRATT baptised 28 Sep 1825 Ware, Herts, son of Charles & Harriet.
Death: Dec qtr 1869 St George, Southwark aged 46.
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Harriet PRATT born 23 Feb 1855, baptised St Paul Deptford 15 Apr 1855.
Parents: Aaron (tinman) & Mary, of Giffin St.
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Possible sighting of Harriet PRATT, 16, hawker b "Southwark", in a lodging house at 7-8 Duke St, St George Southwark in 1871.
RG10/602/27/47
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:o :o :o
Incredible! Well done,John and also avm-never thought this one could be solved.
Bravo.
Maureen
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I think the mystery (one with many twists and turns)has been solved. Thank you so much, I would never have figured it out myself.
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HI,
This maybe a long while after the last comments, but I read this all with great interest. The reason being that I am directly descended from John Gumble and Racheal Rowlands. I don't know if I can add anything further to what you have already, but if so give me a shout.
Gordon
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Hi Gordon,
Thanks for posting. It has been a while since I have looked at all the notes!
I would love to know if you have information about John and Rachael (their traveller lifestyle, what happened to them or photos etc). It would nice to add to the story.
Unfortunately all the research I have been able to do since this hasn't yielded any great results to help solve the other questions I have for this family.
Did you have any idea James Gumble was involved in the inquest?
Regards Mel
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Hi Mel,
Sorry for getting your name wrong, I can tell you that John and Rachael had two children John (1875 - 1927) and Alice Gumble (1877 - 1949). Sadly Racheal died in the January of 1888 in Lambeth and John went on to marry Ada Boswell in the July of 1888. I have just noticed that the eldest child from John's second marriage was born in 1886, so I know that he was clearly faithful to Racheal. This now opens up a mystery for me, which means I will need to order a death certificate for Racheal, as for his father James it would not surprise me he was involved in an inquest. On the 6th of July 1863, there was a warrant for his in the police gazette with a description of him, hopefully, you can see that clip below.
Do you have an ancestry account if so I can share my tree with you, but pm me if you do with your username and I will send the request. I think from seeing your comments before you have some trouble with surnames, this maybe something to take into account. Gypsies never used surnames until they arrived in the UK, so if asked they would have no idea what to give in most cases they would make it up especially if they couldn't read or write. In the case of Gumble, it is German in origin and spelt Gumbel. My AncestryDNA supports this and I have some photos of family that came from the Austrian - Hungarian borders just after 1901 before moving to America via Liverpool.
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Thanks for the information, certainly gets your imagination going. Caroline Brewington (lover to James Gumble) as per one of the newspaper articles on FindMyPast has been difficult to track..... on 19th Jan 1877 she was listed on the Newington workhouse vagrant register. I have found an admission and discharge record from the workhouse also in 1877 and her living with James in the 1881 census but thats about it.
Even the Pratt's (Harriet's husband Aaron) are proving elusive.
I'm not currently subscribed with ancestry.com. I'll PM you my email address to make it easier to share information.