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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: jimmain on Thursday 16 July 15 13:41 BST (UK)
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Robert Salmond, son of Peter Salmond, portioner of Balquhatstone, married Elizabeth Manuel 1681, Slamannan. He died 1685 and Elizabeth married Robert Howie, 1686. Robert and Elizabeth had at least one child, a daughter Elizabeth. There is a testament for Robert dated 1May 1685. There is also a testament for Elizabeth, his daughter, dated 20May 1685. It is written in Old Scots, but I was able to identify the following names: John Salmond in Balquhatstone, Patrick Salmond, portioner of Balquhatstone & Robert Salmond. I’m puzzled by this testament, as it would indicate that Elizabeth died shortly after her father, and would have been about 5 years of age. I’m hoping that someone might be able to clarify this for me. I’m also wondering if Robert and Elizabeth Manuel had other children, in particular, a son Robert, who married Elizabeth Clerk, 1704. They had four children in Slamannan, including a son Patrick, who I suspect married Ann Baird.
I have also recently reviewed a testament dative and inventory of Robert Salmond who died 1777; Robert was the son of Patrick Salmond, Balquhatstone/ Ann Baird.
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I take it that you are referring throughout to Robert Salmon(d) rather than Robert Howie?
I have no information about any children of Robert Salmon(d) and Elizabeth Manuel, but it does seem strange that a child not yet 5 years old should have made a will. Is it possible that Elizabeth Manuel was a second wife of Robert Salmon(d), and that Elizabeth Salmon(d) was his adult daughter by a previous marriage?
I have a document dated 1710 executed by "me Robert Houie [of Ruchrig] only laull son and aire to ye deceast Robert Houie younger portioner of Easter Glentore ... speciall advice and consent of Robert Houie elder there my grand father and of Robert Mannuall of Murhead my uncle my curators ... In witness yrof thir presents written be me ye said Robert Houie minor"
From this I deduce that Elizabeth Manuel had a son Robert by Robert Howie her second husband, and that this Robert must have been born after 1689, because he was still a minor in 1710. I do not know who his eventual wife was, but he would hardly have been old enough to marry in 1704. I suppose it's possible that she had two sons both named Robert, one by Robert Salmon(d) and one by Robert Howie, but it seems unlikely.
My own line goes back to Joseph Howie of Meikle Drumgray, who according to the index to the Register of Sasines was the son of Robert Howie, portioner of Easter Glentore. Joseph married in 1717, so he can't be a son of Robert Howie of Ruchrig, and as Robert Howie of Ruchrig was an only son, he can't be a brother either. He could be a brother of Robert Howie Younger of Glentore, but if so he married very late compared with his brother, who married in 1686.
There is in the National Archives a document I have yet to see, relating to the adultery of Robert Howie of Glentore with his servant Janet Johnston. I wonder if Joseph is a descendant of that relationship, perhaps?
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When I read these reports, one wonders what these places were in the past.
Glentore is a Farm, come Riding School today and Meikle Drumgray is a
landfill site.
James.
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I thik they were all quite small farms.
Much of Lanarkshire would be unrecognisable to the folk who lived there before the industrial revolution. I have been having a wander around there off and on, and it's all been churned up by coal mining and its associated infrastructure of railways, bings and so on.
Stanrigg, which was occupied by Waddells from at least the 1660s, and its neighbours are now completed obliterated by what looks like a settling pond, though I have yet to go and look at it from close by.
Meikle Drumgray is still there, but greatly altered http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3638879 and with landfill nearby http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1501003
Easter Glentore too is still there, but it's anyone's guess which part was occupied by the Howies 300 years ago
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4405681
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4405602
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The puzzle continues to be, for me, the fact that Robert Salmond was 30 when he died in 1685. (His testament was only 1 page, so I didn't bother downloading it.) He married Elizabeth Manuell 1681, and his daughter Elizabeth was born 1684. Her testament, dated 1685, claims that she was the daughter of Robert, portioner of Balquhatsone. I didn't find any evidence that Robert had married prior to his marriage with Elizabeth Manuell.
As far as Easter Glentore, there is a wonderful B&B there now & I had a chance to stay there a couple of years ago when I was touring Scotland. My ancestors, John Main/ Jean Steel were farming there between 1780-1800.
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Elizabeth must have been a daughter of an earlier generation, then.
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Here is a Map of the area concerned which shows "The Lost Villages" and also Meikle Drumgray as I remember it in 1945 ish.
James.
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Thanks for this, Mosstrooper. The map is useful for me as it nicely shows the relationship of where my John Main of Ballochney families were living.
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I'm interested in Joseph HOWIE m 1717 Elizabeth HAY. Onomastically they could well be the parents of Rebecca HOWIE m 1755 William HENDRY, watchmaker and portioner of Aidrie.
William HENDRY was a witness in 1774 of a sasine between John STORY & Elizabeth HOWIE [dau above Joseph & Eliz HAY]
Robert HOWIE, of Meikle Drumgray witnessed the 1735 marriage contract of above John STORY to Ann CLELLAND. This Robert is PROBABLY not son of above Joseph who was alive in 1768.
A lot of this info coming from the GeneaNet tree of Gavin WADDELL.
Regards, Don
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John Stor(r)i/e(y) of Braco and Elizabeth Howie are my 4th great-grandparents. The information in Gavin Waddell's geneanet is at least partly from me.
I am very confused about the various Robert Howies of Glentore and Meikle Drumgray.
Joseph Howie of Meikle Drumgray cannot be the legitimate son of Robert Howie younger of Glentore because Robert Howie, son of Robert Howie younger of Glentore and grandson of Robert Howie elder of Glentore, describes himself in a sasine (RS42/12/123) in 1710 as the "only laull son and aire to ye deceast Robert Houie younger portioner of Easter Glentore". He also refers to "Robert Houie elder there my grand father" and to himself as "Robert Houie minor". So there appear to be three Robert Howies, father, son and grandson, of whom the middle one predeceased his father before 1710. It also constrains the date of birth of the grandson, who must have been born before 1689 if he was not yet 21 in 1710.
Robert Howie in Glentore was found guilty of the 'the crime of adultery committed with Janet Johnston, his servant" in 1660. I have yet to view some of the documents relating to this affair. I wonder if Joseph Howie could be descended from this liaison?
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Thanks for your reply. I sent a message to Gavin.
I am not sure there is not another interpretation of the 1710 document!
My connection to this lot is HIGHLY speculative at the moment. I am interested in William HENDRY m 1755 Rebecca HOWIE. Their first son and 2nd dau match his parents. John & Jean THOMSON - though there is a fellow who keeps overwriting the correct info on FamilySearch!
Their 2nd son and 1st dau are Joseph & Elizabeth. Indicative that Rebecca COULD be dau Joseph HOWIE & Elizabeth HAY - who may possibly descend from Robert The Bruce.
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Recte, William HENDRY & Rebecca HOWIE had a Jean as their 4th dau.
Perhaps the testament of the one year old Elizabeth SALMOND was dative.
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I am not sure there is not another interpretation of the 1710 document!
How else would you interpret it?
My connection to this lot is HIGHLY speculative at the moment.
Indeed. I have not come across the name Rebecca anywhere in this family so far.
there is a fellow who keeps overwriting the correct info on FamilySearch!
Just ignore FS - you can get the original documents at Scotland's People, and there is very nearly as much information in the (free of charge) index there as there is on FS.
Their 2nd son and 1st dau are Joseph & Elizabeth. Indicative that Rebecca COULD be dau Joseph HOWIE & Elizabeth HAY - who may possibly descend from Robert The Bruce.
Well, if you could prove that it wouldn't half increase the size of my tree! :)
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Robert HOWIE - too many of them in/of various places - I'm not convinced!
EG who was the Robert, of Meikle Drumgray who wit. mar con John Storie & Anne Clelland in 1735. Apparently not the writer in Hamilton - and I think he might be in the wrong generation as well.
ScotlandsPeople does not give access to sasine, sheriff court and a whole load of other records. At the rate they are moving I'll be senile before they are available.
Regards
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Robert HOWIE - too many of them in/of various places - I'm not convinced!
I am convinced that Robert Howie who was a minor in 1710 was the only lawful son of Robert Howie younger and the grandson of Robert Howie elder in Meikle Drumgray, because that is what the 1710 sasine says.
who was the Robert, of Meikle Drumgray who wit. mar con John Storie & Anne Clelland in 1735.
Since the transcription I have of the marriage contract of John Storie and Anna Clelland makes no mention of either a William Hendry or a Robert Howie, I am unable to comment.
Neither that transcription nor the one I have of the 1710 sasine refers to a Robert Howie, writer in Hamilton, but the latter refers to a John Gunison, writer in Hamilton.
Maybe we need to exchange transcriptions to see how they differ from one another.
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I am unable to get anything from Johannesburg but what others have made available.
This is copied from Gavin Waddell's GeneaNet database. This is from a sasine of 1761:-
"And this on noways ye leave undone the which to do he committs to you his full warrand and commission by this his precept d... to you for that effect In Witness whereof both partys have subscribed these presents writen upon this and oyr six preceding pages of stamped paper by Andrew Clark writer in Shotts place day month and year of God [1700] and thirty-five years and wryten before these witnesses William Cleland of Auchenlie Mr James Cook in Green, William Cleland yr of Hairshaw, Alexr Cleland in Netherbraco and Andrw Cleland Yr the subr Andrew Storie John Storie Ann Cleland Wm Cleland William Claland witness James Cook witness Wm Clelland witness Alexr Clelland witness And Clelland witness and which contract is dated at Conoble the twenty-first day of Novr in ye yr forsd After reading whereof the said Baillie gave and delivered herwt state and sasine reall actual and corporall possession of All and Haill the said forty shilling land of Wester Braco and oys forsd wt yr pertinents and off the teinds great and small personage and vicarage of the said lands to the said John Storry and that by deliverance to him of earth and stone of and upon the ground of the sd lands And ane handfull of corn and grass for ye sd lands as use is to be holden after the form and tenor of the said contract of marriage in all points whereupon and upon the haill premises the said John Storry asked and took instruments one or more in the hands of me Nottar publick subscriving these things were done upon the ground of the sd Lands day month year of God and Kings reign .... betwixt the hours of one and two in ye afternoon of said day before these witnesses Robert Howie of Meikle Drumgray and George Clelland son to the deceast George Cleland in Southshaws witnesses to the haill premises specially called and required Et Ego Vero Andreas Clark Clericus Diocesios Glasgowensis Notarius publicus Authoritate egale ac per Dominos Concilly et Sessionis secund tenorem acti parliamenti admessio quia premissis omnibus et singulis dum sic ut premettitur decerentur Agenrentur et perunt una cum pranominalis testibus presens personaliter interfice eq omnia et singula praemisso sic frea Vide secr et Ander Ac in Notam cept Ideog hoc present publicum instrumentum manu mia fideliter scryptum exinde confia et in hanc publica formam Instrumenti redeci Signoq Nomine et cognomine meis solitis et consuelis signavi et subscripti In fide rotur et testimonium voulas omnium et singulorum preamissorum rogalus et requisitis (Signed) Tupe scarnu - honestum Andrew Clark NJAD Robert Howie witness George Clelland witness. [National Archives of Scotland RS42/17/17a]"
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Ah, right, this is Robert Howie of Meikle Drumgray as witness to John Storry taking possession in 1761 of the lands after his father-in-law's death as provided for in the marriage contract a quarter of a century before. I also have a transcription of the same 1761 sasine.
The 1710 document mentions three Robert Howies. This one in 1761 cannot be No 2 because the 1710 document refers to No 2 as deceased. No 3 was born after 1689, so his father No 2 must have been born no later than about 1670, so No 1, who was the father of No 2, cannot possibly still have been living in 1761.
So this has to be either No 3 at a ripe old age or (No 4) Joseph's son Robert who was born in 1720 at Meikle Drumgray. No 4 married Janet Main of Ballochney around 1750-ish, and all their children were born at Meikle Drumgray between 1754 and 1768. The baptisms all refer to their father No 4 as 'of' Meikle Drumgray rather than 'in' Meikle Drumgray, which does imply that No 4 was the proprietor.
So did No 3 die without issue, and the land passed to Joseph? And if so, was Joseph really illegitimate or was he descended from another son (or even a brother) of No 1?
I do have quite a lot of sasines still to look at, some of them written by a particular clerk in Lanarkshire who might as well have been writing upside-down in Chinese while intoxicated for all the sense I can make of them.