RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: sheena.R on Wednesday 15 July 15 00:41 BST (UK)
-
Hello I'm trying to find a birth for Ethel Doreen Swatman who died in 1947 in Southampton UK, I can find the death but not birth? Can anyone help please?
With thanks
Sheena 😌
-
Hi there, the only birth record I could find was for an Ethel D Swatman born in Wolverhampton in 1917 (mothers maiden name Preston) but that would make her 30 in 1947, not 20 as the death record indicates. Do you have the death certificate ?
Do you know where she was born, or her parents names/mothers maiden name ? I've searched Swatman births for 1926, 27, 28 but can't find anything for an Ethel Doreen
I'll keep looking....
-
Hi,
Besides the big age discrepancy of 10 years with the Wolverhampton birth in 1917 birth ( which is West midlands), I think the 1917 birth is likely to be this lady below as Southampton is not really anywhere near Wolverhampton
Name: Ethel D Swatman
(Spouse Meredith )
Marriage Sep 1953 - Bilston, West Midlands
I tried both ancestry and freebmd with a search term of *man so it would bring up all surnames , misspellings and all ending with man. There doesn't seem to be any likely births for her in England and Wales that I can find.
There is a public tree on ancestry which the owner of the tree has put the Wolverhampton 1917 birth for your lady and the 1947 death . This person has the parents George Richard Swatman and Sarah Ann Preston , no siblings on it. "Molineux Family Tree " . I don't know how well the tree is researched, but I'd tend to tread carefully especially because there is that above Ethel D Swatman who marries around the same area as the 1917 birth
There could also be a chance that she was not registered with the middle name and acquired her name of Doreen when she was christened.
Can you tell us a little more about your Ethel as mentioned by Kilkennylass?
Can you tell us the names of her siblings? Is your direct ancestor one of her siblings? If so , did the family/her parents stay put in England? Is there any chance at all that she may not have been born in England and Wales?
Have you access to ancestry or alike? If so, another suggestion to rule out that she is definitely not registered in England and Wales around the time frame is to manually go through the images of SW births page by page , say from around 1925 to about 1929, if you've not already done this of course.
It does happen that some entries get missed out of being transcribed. Also depending on what site that you are searching for her on , sometimes there are missing pages too ( I know that ancestry has had some missing quarters in the past when I have scrolled through some of the letters).
Kind Regards :)
-
Hi Cell, I didn't think the 1917 Wolverhampton birth was the right one either, like you I also thought its more likely to be associated with the 1953 Meredith marriage, but thought i'd post it up so that Sheena can discount it herself in case she hadn't done so already.
I searched all collections/worldwide for the birth and nothing came up for outside of UK & Ireland, and no birth announcement in the British Newspaper Archive either. Theres a possible, but remote, chance she married at 18 or 19, and thus wasn't a Swatman at birth, but I couldn't find any Swatman marrying an Ethel Doreen in 1947/46/45...
-
Hi Cell, I didn't think the 1917 Wolverhampton birth was the right one either, like you I also thought its more likely to be associated with the 1953 Meredith marriage, but thought i'd post it up so that Sheena can discount it herself in case she hadn't done so already.
I searched all collections/worldwide for the birth and nothing came up for outside of UK & Ireland, and no birth announcement in the British Newspaper Archive either. Theres a possible, but remote, chance she married at 18 or 19, and thus wasn't a Swatman at birth, but I couldn't find any Swatman marrying an Ethel Doreen in 1947/46/45...
Hi Killkennylass,
I tried that too, searching for a Swatman who married an Ethel . :)
I have just found this related post by Sheena that may help http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=723056.0
Sheena, have you got her death cert? If not, and depending on how much you want to find Ethel who died in 1947, perhaps purchasing her death cert may be the way to go , it may throw some light on her.
KilkennyLass , Have you searched for a death in the papers , just in case she died in an accident and there's a report, or an obituary? I don't want search the archive if you've already searched.
Kind Regards :)
-
I have just found this related post by Sheena that may help http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=723056.0
Sheena, have you got her death cert? If not, and depending on how much you want to find Ethel who died in 1947, perhaps purchasing her death cert may be the way to go , it may through some light on her.
KilkennyLass , Have you searched for a death in the papers , just in case she died in an accident and there's a report, or an obituary? I don't want search the archive if you've already searched.
Ah, having read the other thread Sheena was already aware of the 1917 Wolverhampton birth, still seems to be the only one anyone can find anywhere !
I have now searched for the death in the newspaper archives, but there was nothing.....
I agree with you Cell, death certificate is the way forward, it'll confirm Ediths age and whether that 1917 birth is connected somehow.
Bed time for me now though :)
-
Hi,
Two other trees on ancestry have listed the 1917 birth but have listed her middle initial of D as Daisy, marriage to Charles Henry Meredith and then her death in 2003 , children are private , so they are probably still living. I don't think they have the 1917 birth cert , or the marriage cert (unless father's name was blank on marriage) as the trees lists no parents for Ethel, but they do have plenty on the parents and family of her spouse Charles.
I do think the only way you're probably going to solve it is to purchase the relevant BMD certs.
Best of luck
Kind Regards :)
-
Hello everyone, sorry for the delay in my reply, yes the other Ethel was what I thought but proved to be the wrong one, and as I was having so much trouble finding a birth I thought I would put it on here so you lovely people can point me maybe in the right direction,I am going to order the death certificate at the weekend as think it will be my best bet, and It never even crossed my mind she might not of been born in the UK until you pointed it out, so going to try looking at abroad etc and other than that I'm at a loss 😔
Thank you all for trying to help 😊
-
Hi cell, sorry missed some of your post so will reply here, this is all we know...she had a child Gerald franklin Swatman as he was know by at birth ( my dad) who was born in 1945, he was put up for adoption and Ethel died in 1947 in Southampton where dad was born his dad was an American solider who we guess knew nothing of his birth etc and he returned to the USA after the war and that's about it 😞
-
What a mystery! Let us know what the death certificate reveals, when it arrives.
-
There's a Doreen Sweatman born June Q 1926 in West Derby (Liverpool area). She could have changed her name as Swatman sounds better? Mother's maiden name Reilly, in case it links in with whoever registered Ethel D's death.
Think the death cert is the way to go though, as her death may have been registered by eg a relative.
-
Clutching at straws but there are two female Swatman births with mmn Elliott registered in Southampton 1922 and 1930. Big gap there - could Ethel fit into that family? Perhaps they spent time overseas where she was born? The family may be worth a look.
Obviously those who are of an age to be still living can't be named on here, but the refs are on FreeBMD.
-
Clutching at straws but there are two female Swatman births with mmn Elliott registered in Southampton 1922 and 1930. Big gap there - could Ethel fit into that family? Perhaps they spent time overseas where she was born? The
family may be worth a look.
Obviously those who are of an age to be still living can't be named on here, but the refs are on FreeBMD.
Hiya have tried to look but can't see anything? I really think I'm name blind now 😊
-
Do you mean you can't find the two births I referred to?
Go to FreeBMD, select Births, surname Swatman, mother's maiden name Elliott, then press "Find".
If you then go on to do the same search but under Marriages, you'll find one Swatman/Elliott marriage - which took place in Barnet in 1915. Nowhere near Southampton so it may or may not be relevant.
-
Hi cell, sorry missed some of your post so will reply here, this is all we know...she had a child Gerald franklin Swatman as he was know by at birth ( my dad) who was born in 1945, he was put up for adoption and Ethel died in 1947 in Southampton where dad was born his dad was an American solider who we guess knew nothing of his birth etc and he returned to the USA after the war and that's about it 😞
Hi sheena,
Do you have your dad's full birth cert and the father's name is blank on the cert? Also this " and it never even crossed my mind she might not of been born in the UK until you pointed it out, so going to try looking at abroad etc and other than that I'm at a loss " quote
Before looking abroad, I wouldn't rule out the other two countries in the UK ,there are two other countries that are also a part of the UK :) A search on Ancestry and alike or Freembmd will not give you the births for Scotland or N.Ireland,. For Scotland ; http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&612
For N.Ireland https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/ ( for births over 100 yrs - you won't be able to find her birth online if she is born here)
Kind Regards :)
-
Before looking abroad, I wouldn't rule out the other two countries in the UK ,there are two other countries that are also a part of the UK :) A search on Ancestry and alike or Freembmd will not give you the births for Scotland or N.Ireland,. For Scotland ; http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&612
For N.Ireland https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/ ( for births over 100 yrs - you won't be able to find her birth online if she is born here)
GRONI's online database (Northern Ireland) also has a 100 year restriction of births but you can search the rest of Ireland up to 1958-
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1408347
-
Have ordered the death certificate so can't wait for it to arrive even if it will take a few weeks, in the mean time I will look at the sites you kind people have mentioned 😊
-
Hi Sheena
If you ordered the certificate from the General Register office at Southport using the registration information from the index, it should be despatched in 5 working days. It will be sent 2nd class so if you are in the UK you should get it in about a week.
Dawn
-
Hi dawn, I ordered it through ancestry and I'm in Australia, it said 28 days which I was a bit disappointed with, fingers crossed it gets here before that 😊
-
Don't ever order from ancestry, order directly from the general register office in the UK. It will only cost you £9.25, and you should get the certificate faster as well. :)
-
Ancestry are acting as a middle man and taking a sum from you on top of the £9.25 statutory certificate charge.
Please try your best to cancel the order if you can and order direct.
-
can anyone please work out what this says? thank you
Resized image
-
Hi,
I think it says -
Certificate received
from D H Harfield
Coroner for Southampton
Inquest held 29th September 1947
Sue
-
I agree with most of the above, I'm wondering if its DKB in front of that surname. I'm not sure what that surname says though.
Trystan
-
The Southampton Coroner was a Mr D H B Harfield :)
http://www.plimsoll.org/images/04%20Directory_tcm4-180869.pdf (see p. 2)
-
thank you for the replies,i got the death cert today and was hoping it would help me find out info instead it does nothing but confuse me more! cant see who registered the death and no parents etc are named so at a lose as to where to look now? im useless at this I think! :(
-
I think this thread is relevant?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=725598.msg5699017#msg5699017
I suggest you post the details found on the death certificate there :)
-
Oh sorry, did not realise that I would have to put something about handwriting on the same thread, thought it was different! Thanks for the help
-
Since the Death Certificate information is relevant to that thread I'd say you should add it, rather than starting a new one :)
-
Hi everyone, I got the death certificate today! But a lot of the writing I can not make out, I put a post regarding some of the words etc on the handwriting forum but that was the wrong thing to do but still new to all this so never mind!! :) still had no luck looking for info on her, so going to try Ireland,Scotland and Wales now to see if I can find something there!
-
Ps, think ancestry ripped me off then as they charged me $44 when I could of got it a lot cheaper direct! Oh well two lessons learned today ;)
-
Here's the other thread with the writing in question :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728000.msg5725443#msg5725443
I put a post regarding some of the words etc on the handwriting forum but that was the wrong thing to do but still new to all this so never mind!! :)
I wasn't suggesting it was the wrong thing to do, just suggesting in this case it was worth keeping all the information on the one thread :)
-
Ps, think ancestry ripped me off then as they charged me $44 when I could of got it a lot cheaper direct! Oh well two lessons learned today ;)
NEVER order certificates from Ancestry!
-
Again sorry! Still new to all this and thought something about handwriting should go in handwriting etc my bad
-
I've merged the topics to keep all the information together.
-
thank you :)
-
So part from the informant being the coroner, what other details are on the certificate?
-
To try and proceed;
Do you have your Dad's actual adoption records or is your information just from what he was told? It may be worth getting them if you don't have them already.
Can you give all the data from the death cert - her age, occupation, cause of death and the exact date of death and when it was registered. You may then be able to ask the local record office (or on here) if someone can look in the local newspapers for a report of the death or inquest. I feel sure there would have been something as the unexpected death of a young woman (you know this because there was an inquest) would have been likely to have been reported in the newspaper. Knowing the dates, you could also perhaps find where she was buried or cremated which may give further leads.
-
So part from the informant being the coroner, what other details are on the certificate?
Hi Sheena,
Ditto to this above.What is in the other columns?
Regarding ordering civil registration BMD certificates, you wouldn't believe how many people get ripped off by ordering through certain companies. Certain companies do not make it clear.
Never order any English and Wales BMD cert off anyone other than the official government departments, ie the General register office of England and Wales, or if you want the local registration office where the event took place. You're in Australia , Australia is the same in that respect never order official gov docs through any middle man.
There's no need to apologise ! It makes me really annoyed that certain companies, in my opinion I think are pretty much are purposely being deceptive with bmd certificate ordering.
I really think a certain company should be pulled up by the Brtish gov - They've been doing this for years and getting away with it.
(sorry to go slightly go off subject, but I had to voice my disgust at a certain company as I feel partly responsible advising you to get death cert and not giving you a link to the GRO, I assumed you knew to order certs off the GRO- I feel really awful that you spent so much.)
Kind regards :)
-
Sheena is in another time zone, not GMT or BST, so we'll have to wait a few hours for her to return.
-
Sheena is in another time zone, not GMT or BST, so we'll have to wait a few hours for her to return.
Sheena is apparently in aus same as me,( there is not lot of diff depending on what state-, just a few hours) .It's late here in qld (11.18 pm as I type) I really should be in bed ;D (I'm on AEST)
Kind Regards
-
Hello and thank you all for the replies, sorry for late reply but I have a three year old and she has been very unwell over the last four weeks so not been able to get on as much as I would like, and sometimes I just manage to get on and have to go straight away again! Lol
Dad has his adoption records what
there is of it as a lot was lost in a fire in the council offices where they were kept :( the certificate does say other stuff but been having trouble uploading it as it keeps saying the file is too big, hubby will help me again tonight when the babe is in bed and will try again then, and dont worry about me spending too much to get the certificate, I didn't know no better and thought it was the way to do it, but at least I know for future 😊 it's all good,
Will get back on tonight and try to upload the other parts of the certificate as can't work out any of what it says apart from a few little bits
With thanks
Sheena 😊
-
hello everyone, here is the full death certificate, have looked at Scotland and Ireland now and still cant find anything so going to try wales next, but the death certificate to me does not shed any light on her? I thought it would give more details like parents name/names etc as im sure it was said on here that the death cert would give details like that? oh well the search continues (as long as the babe stays asleep) lol hope I have not missed any questions anywhere?
with thanks
sheena :)
Moderator comment: Full certificate removed to prevent breach of copyright
-
I suggest you transcribe the info from the certificate as you're likely to be asked to remove the full image for copyright reasons.
It gives you two Southampton addresses to research (subdistrict Southampton West):
4 Dukes Rd, where she was found dead from an unknown cause, aged 20, on 28 Aug 1947.
63 Empress Rd, her address up to the day before her death.
Her occupation was laundry hand. A post mortem (PM - see column 6) was conducted.
-
I had a look at the addresses on google maps and street view.
Both are now modern built industrial estates and adjacent to each other.
I won't be back at the British Library to be able to look at electoral registers for a few weeks now so unless you get any help in the meantime, I'll try for you after the end of the school summer holidays.
-
thank you to the mod who adjusted the cert, was not sure how to do it! lol
thank you dawnsh, that would be great, can you look at the "british library" online? might see if I can
with thanks
sheena
-
It seems that 4 Dukes Road, Southampton had been the address of Frederick George Bishop who died in the war in 1942 aged 23, according to this memorial entry:
www.warmemorials.hampshire.org.uk/IndexesWW2/men/b/Bishop_FG_1.htm
Not sure where that gets you, but still!
-
It is possible that a report of the coroner's inquest survives - see:
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/archives/hals-collections/coroners-records.htm
...though whether you could obtain access will be another matter.
-
1, 2 and 3 Dukes Rd had been damaged in the war (see item 44a-b in the list attached):
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/d6be6c20-4e3a-401f-9de6-4566ddc31bb9
So no. 4 may or may not have been habitable/inhabited in 1947.
There is also reference to damage to Lanhams Store in Empress Rd (item 51a-b).
-
thank you for your replies :) had a quick nosey but its 10.30pm now here so time to go to bed, but giving me a lot to look at tomorrow :) thank you all so much and have a lovely day/evening :)
-
I have found something possibly interesting (all from http://www.freebmd.org.uk )
Ernest Hawthorn m. Harriet E Reeves 1913 in Hull
several children born
Ernest Hawthorn d. 1922 aged 32 in Hull
Harriet E. Hawthorn m. Herbert Swatman 1929 in Hull
Harriet E Swatman d. 1935 in Sculcoates (possibly due to complications in the birth of Iris Swatman b. and d. 1935)
Herbert Swatman d. 1944 in Hull
Between the 1922 death of Ernest and the 1929 remarriage, there were two daughters born who are registered under the surname "Hawthorn", mother's maiden name Reeves, but with middle initial "S". I believe the girl born as E.D.S. Hawthorn is your Ethel Doreen Swatman.
Her father was almost certainly Herbert and the birth certificate will probably show her with a middle name "Swatman". I would presume that she was raised using that name, dropping "Hawthorn".
-
That's a great find.
It looks as though Herbert Swatman was born in the King's Lynn area of Norfolk in 1881 and that his first marriage had been to Annie Elizabeth Wells in Jun qtr 1901 Sculcoates. Her likely death as Ann E Swatman aged 39 is Mar qtr 1916 Sculcoates.
-
Hi,
If more proof were needed the elder child marries in Hull in March 1943 and has entries in both names Hawthorn and Swatman (Ref. 9d 395)
Sue
-
The family don't appear to have had connections to Southampton. Perhaps she had joined the Wrens or something along those lines.
With both parents deceased and the rest of the family (as far as I can tell) back in Yorkshire, I wonder if they even knew the fate of her and her son?
-
Hello and thank you so much for your info, so you think it's the right Ethel? If it is that's amazing 😊 and gives me lots to look at, but I must say that all you people on here are truely amazing 😊 I can't even begin to wonder how you can find these? I have been searching for a long time and have been getting no where 😒 I can't thank you all enough as just last night I felt like I was going around in circles and getting blinded by all the names I was looking at 😱 if I could say "thank you" in person I would but have to do it on here 😊😊 " thank you" to you all for all your help I am truely gratful 😘😘
-
hello, been having a nosey around as best as I can, cant see them anywhere on the 30's census and figure that as the parents died when she was young she must of been brought up by family but cant seem to find that either, but off I go for another look...its exciting all this :)
-
The best you'll do after the 1911 census is electoral registers, (the 1921 census won't come out until 2021)