RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Elamcc on Saturday 11 July 15 07:11 BST (UK)
-
I have an ancestor named Thomas Grieves he was born in 1842 or 1844 (according to the 1881, 1891, 1901 census records) but the locations on the census records I cannot find and as an Aussie I have no idea if they exist or how to find where they might be.
On the 1881 census it says he was born Joully Point, Northumberland. On the 1891 census it says he was born in Wechley Point, Northumberland. I know that Thomas was a Blacksmith - this is on all the census records I have and hiss marriage certificate.
I have his father as being James Grieves a Labourer - on Thomas's marriage certificate in 1863 London.
I have found a Thomas Grieves born in Meldon 1842 with a father James, but in all the census records for this meldon Thomas - it has him as a agri labourer. HELP! I am so confused with this one
-
Have you checked the actual images as to the place names, and then done a google search on the variants?
Does your Thomas marry twice - Susan and Emma?
The Meldon Thomas is still in Northumberland whilst your Thomas is down in London e.g. the 1881 census yours in Bromley, the other in Bedlington.
Weebly?
-
Not much help but I think this is the family in 1871 mistranscribed - the image is Grieves - Living in Willesborough, Kent
Thomas Gricius 29 Forgeman Wittow Pt, Northumberland,
Susan Gricius 29
John M Gricius 6
Andrew C Gricius 2
RG10 Piece 961 Folio 113 Page 41
Kay
-
List of points in Northumberland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_headlands_of_the_United_Kingdom#Northumberland
-
Could Joully be a complete mis-pronunciation of Guile?
-
Hi
1881 and 1891 censuses suggest he married twice as Chempat has pointed out.
1886 marriage in Bromley April 26 Thomas Grieves 44 Forgeman widower father James Grieves ship steward to Emma Margaret Nelson 40 widow father William Hillson? butcher.
William
-
Chempat - yes my Thomas did marry Susan and Emma - Susan died in 1884. He married Emma in 1886. Thank you for those points of Northumberland I'll check those out.
Kay99 - that is actually really helpful, I hadn't been able to find them for 1871.
-
Just a thought - Given the occupation of James on Thomas's second marriage cert - I wonder whether Thomas was born at sea???
Kay
-
I wondered about that too, Kay.
If I have located the correct census entry for Thomas in 1901 he is recorded as Thomas Greaves and is living in Poplar with son John and daughter Alice, her husband Albert and grandson William. Here his pace of birth is given as Jarrow.
Even though the 1901 census states Thomas is a widower there does appear to be a census entry for wife Emma living in East Ham with daughter Isabel. She is 60 and living on her own means. In the condition as to marriage column it says married but, and I have not come across this before, in smaller writing separated has been added.
We are not allowed to give look ups for the 1911 census but I would suggest that you look for Thomas in the 1911 census and see where it says his place of birth is there.
William
-
Given the Jarrow birthplace of Thomas in 1901 - I am wondering about this family with father James who becomes a Mariner and brother James who is also a Forgeman
In 1851 living in South Shields by Jarrow Hall
James Grieves 45 Labour Jedburgh?? - (Scotland)
Hannah Grieves 43 South Shields, Durham
Mary A Grieves 16 South Shields, Durham
James Grieves 12 North Shields
Thomas Grieves 10 North Shields
Elizabeth Grieves 7 Preston, Durham
William D Grieves 4 Jarrow, Durham
Adam Grieves 1
HO107 Piece 2400 Folio 304 Page 25
By 1861 Thomas had left home (or possibly died)- Father James was a widower - Labourer (b Roxbrough Scotland) and brother James was a Forgeman - Living in Westoe South Shields
RG 9 Piece 3791 Folio 56 Page 26
1871 Father James Grieves is living in Westoe, Jarrow age 64 born Scotland and this time listed as a mariner with son Adam who is a puddler in the Iron Works
RG10 Piece 5035 Folio 27 Page 48
Kay
-
The family found by Kay may well be worth pursuing. (On Ancy in 1851 the name has been transcribed as Griener).
A public tree for James Grieves b 1839 South Shields on ancy. names his parents as James Grieves and Hannah Simpson but interestingly has his marriage in Christ Church, Poplar 17 Aug 1862. The parish record gives his occupation as forgeman and his father's as sailor. James then returns to the north east. In the 1881 census he has a son James born London 1864.
There is a marriage for James Grieves and Hannah Simpson in Jarrow 4 June 1832. (It is image 87 in the Jarrow dataset in the Diocese of Durham Bishop's Transcripts).
William
-
thank you so much guys. I am definitely going to look into the James & Hannah family for him.
I did look at the 1911 census for Thomas and it has him Born 1841 Newcastle. Married. Hammerman/Blacksmith. It says he is a Lodger with the family he is with but it is actually his daughter and son-in-laws family Alice and Albert Jones.
I was looking at google maps and Jarrow and South Shields are so close together. and maybe it is just me here in Australia having a different idea on distances but Newcastle seems very close too.
Kay if Thomas was born at sea - how would I look into that?
I had a look at some of the public trees with James (sibling) having parents James and Hannah. Weird that on all of them, they have only William, James and Adam as the children despite it clearly having Thomas, Mary A, and Elizabeth on the census's as well.
I also found on the 1871 Census of Thomas and Susan and family that the middle name of one of the children (John) is Millingen. That sounds like a surname to me. But I haven't been able to find anything to link that name.
Key you are amazing finding Hannah and James's marriage - I would never have found that!
-
William - Good find for the brother James's marriage in Poplar with his father named as James - sailor.
Elamcc - the reason most trees don't have all James and Hannah's children on them is the mistrancription on their surname on Anc as Griener in 1851 - I found the family originally in 1861 when Thomas had left the family but was struck by James being a Forgeman and his father's name. I only found them on another site in 1851 (FindMyPast) and checking the Anc trees they have not referred to this census
My suggestion that Thomas may have been born at sea was only a thought based on his reference to headlands on the Northumberland coast and his father's occupation and he still may have been registered. There are a couple options on FreeBMD including a Thomas Henry in South Shields in 1842. Will try and find them in 1841
Kay
Edit - I think they may have been at sea in 1841 but did find a daughters baptism at St Hilda South Shields - Margaret Grieves 9 June 1834 Parents James and Hannah Grieves - James listed as a mariner (St Hilda dataset image 64 in the Diocese of Durham Bishop's Transcripts)
-
There is an excellent map collection on the National Library of Scotland site. This includes 19th century English 6 inch maps. I note that there is a Whitehill Point in North Shields ( on one early map it does look like it is Whitchill Point) on the River Tyne opposite South Shields. Am I pushing it to suggest that this could be the Wittow Point /Wechley Point given in the 1871 and 1891 census?
Hope you do better than me, Kay in finding them in 1841!
William
-
I don't think so unfortunately - I think they could be at sea :-\
Kay
-
This map:
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102346464
-
There are some houses at Whitehill Point called "Quality Row" http://maps.nls.uk/view/102346464#zoom=5&lat=682&lon=12018&layers=BT
Stan
-
1841 census, Murton Row, Chirton, Tynemouth,
James Grives, 30, Ag Lab, b. Scotland,
Hannah, 25, N,
Margaret, 7, N,
James, 2, N,
Thomas, 11 weeks, Y,
HO107/825/1/14/20
Down as Goives on you know what.
Theres a Thomas Grieve birth registered in Tynemouth, jun qtr 1841.
Alan.
-
Excellent find - Murton Row is the centre of the map by the railway line just to the east of the sign for Percy Ward http://maps.nls.uk/view/102346464
Kay
-
Looking at the 1871, I think its Witlow Point. In the 1881 I think first letter is a W not a J, looks like Wicky Point. 1891 looks like Weckly Point. I think its probably Whitley Point. If you google it there are lots of baptisms of children at Tynemouth in the mid 1800's who lived at Whitley Point. Wasn't on the coast, a mention of it being somewhere up river, before Jarrow Quay.
Alan.
-
I suspect Whitley Point referred to in various baptisms at Tynemouth etc was the common pronunciation of Whitehill Point, at the bottom of the map.
Alan.