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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: muso_bob on Saturday 04 July 15 23:48 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find the birth of my grandfather - said he was 29 on marriage certificate Feb 1922, however he was 50 ten years later in 1932 when he died. I have a Robt Turnbull signing 1911 census as 28 year old )mother could not read or write [top] and a Robt Turnbul signature Feb 1922 in church marriage register (not the generic GRO one) scanned from original at Woodhorn. To me it does look obvious that they are two different people. However there are some similarities I wonder is it possoible they could be the same person. My experience with Rootschat is sufficient for to know that there are some amazing members who are specialists in various fields. I am prepared to be put out of my misery. I have attached signatures: 1911 census top and 1922 marriage bottom
Thank you, Robert
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It looks like two different signatures to me. The lower case bs and rs are different, as is the capital T. Lots of the joins are different as well.
However, there are 10 years between each signature, so his writing could have changed during that time!
Is the 28 on his marriage certificate really clear or could it be a badly formed 3? Was his bride a lot younger than him so he knocked a few years off?
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I think you are looking at signatures of two different people. :-\ I can't see any similarities at all I'm afraid ....
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I'd say two different people too.
Even allowing for the 11 year difference, unless he was ill during that period I don't think his signature would have deteriorated to the second one.
But it's all only conjecture isn't it?
Dawn M
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I was hanging some hope on the R was a good likeness. Yes the T and the lowercase r's different. However the lowercase b's in the marriage register Ro(b)ert and Turn(b)ull are very different.
Yes Jessie was 21 and Robert clearly 29 on the marriage register. Jessie's parents wrote her out of the will for marrying such an older man. An aunt I never new existed wrote that her ds was very much older than he mam etc. It was finding him dying in the house 2 March 1832 where my grandmother Jessie, my mother 8 aunt 5 and other siblings lived with my granfather where it all came out that he was 50. I don't disagree with any of your comments. It is really looking like back to the drawing board.
Thank you all for your input. Robert
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Do you have any details of his father........name & occupation & do you have your grandmother's name with maiden name ???
Annie
ADDED........what was Robert's occupation when he married ???
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Annie, thank you for your post. My grandmother was Jessie Winn 1901 - 1974 - William Wallace Winn father - Jane Hill mother. My grandfather is the mystery one. For a long time - from their marriage certificate I was looking for a Robt T born c. 1892/3 with a father Robert T as well (from the marriage cert. It wasn't until I read a letter sent by my mother's brother George a few years before he died that he mentioned that he was born 26/12/1931 "about 6 weeks or so, before his father died in the room nest door. SO then I thought well they lived at 20 Lee Street Annitsford and ended up with the death details stating age 50. Many family history researchers have said I should rely on the death age as potential more accurate for real age. My father did not know too much about him other than she always said his father's name was Robert, but, then she said he died "in the war" as well as her mother - and they didn't Robt 1932 and Jessie Marsh - remarried- 1974.
My GF was in the mine around Cramlington. It is the Winn side I have had an easier journey of discovery. Thank you for your interest. Robert in OZ
Added Robert was a 'caretaker' when Jessie and he married.
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I'm confused.................was Robert's father named as Robert too on his marriage to Jessie/Janet Winn 1922?
Annie
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There is a related thread here (the signatures posted on p.7)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=504598.msg3613095#msg3613095
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Thank you JenB - Robert
OOPs that is my old original post I did put it on there.
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There is a related thread here (the signatures posted on p.7)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=504598.msg3613095#msg3613095
Thanks Jen ::)
Hi Robert,
Yes always a good idea to share links to save "double trouble".
Got your PM ;D
Was there ANY mention of where your g/father Robert was born (for definite) or are you just assuming Northumberland ???
Do you know if he had any siblings ???
Was there ever any clue to his mother's forename which would help ???
You would expect anyone to mention their parents throughout life whether alive or deceased ???
Was it ever mentioned that any of his (your g/father Robert's) female kids was named after her grandmother “Turnbull”?
Is it possible things are a bit mixed up and…………it was your g g/father Robert who was killed during the war (as that would seem more likely)?
Annie
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Only possible matching death I could find (Northumberland):
Robert H Turnbull
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Registration Year: 1915
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 55
Registration district: Newcastle upon Tyne
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Northumberland
Volume: 10b
Page: 63
Annie
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Hi Annie, My uncle George Stroud Turnbull was born 26 Dec 1931 and I have his birth certificate Robt & Jessie - living at 20 Lee Crescent, Annitsford, Weetslade UD
Robert Turnbull died 2 March 1932 20 Lee Crescent, Annitsford, Weetslade UD
Male 50 years Colliery Surface Labourer Haemorrhagic Right Lung.
So he must be my grandfather. I have a photo the children; my mother Joyce as the eldest (1924), Elizabeth (b 1925), Joan (b 1929) and George (b 1931).
I have tried to link Lacelot Algood Turnbull (a witness on the marriage certificate) and cannot verify any real link to the Turnbull brothers of Crow Hall Farm. Robt & Jessie married in Morpeth St Mary's, my mother was born Cramlington and they lived at Beacon Farm (miner's cottage) just cross the road from Crow Hall Farm. No I have no evidence Robt was born in NBL. I have pretty much exhausted the Durham ones c. b. 1890-1893 and b. 1880-1883. Not even disregarding Robert as his father hekped. One time I thought I was on to a prospect - then 'bang' that Robt son and his family went off to Canada.
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Sorry I meant to say I have looked for Winnifred (1923 died within a month), Joyce, Elizabeth, Joan - the female children of Robt & Jessie to no avail. I have met relatives who met and knew Jessie - couple attended her 2nd and 3rd weddings (2 = 1942 Albert Thomas and 3= 1965 Joseph Marsh
I have met and we (my wife and I) have visited their son when Jessie was a Thomas. No children with Marsh. Obvious.
Robert
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Robert Turnbull died 2 March 1932 20 Lee Crescent, Annitsford, Weetslade UD
Male 50 years Colliery Surface Labourer Haemorrhagic Right Lung.
So he must be my grandfather. I have a photo the children; my mother Joyce as the eldest (1924), Elizabeth (b 1925), Joan (b 1929) and George (b 1931).
I have tried to link Lacelot Algood Turnbull (a witness on the marriage certificate) and cannot verify any real link to the Turnbull brothers of Crow Hall Farm.
Robert,
The death I found could possibly be your g grandfather Robert, born c 1860 - d 1915 (during the war)
Born 1860 would allow for his son your g/father Robert to have been born 1882 ::)
The excercise with female names of your g/father's kids was to try & establish if any were named after your grandfather Robert's mother ???
Do you know which, if any of the 3 females were named after your Winn line ???
You still haven't said if you are sure Robert was born Northumberland or if it's just that you think he was ???
As you were born in Scotland.................(not sure what the connection there was) but do you think maybe Robert (your g/father) was born Scotland as I think Turnbull is common on the Scottish borders ???
Annie
ADDED.....You haven't answered my question as in......do you know if your g/father Robert had any brother's/sisters ???
This would help in tracing them on a census ;)
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Winn - Jane G Gmother and her mother Jane as well. There are Margaret, Sarah and Mary only - very compact.
"You still haven't said if you are sure Robert was born Northumberland or if it's just that you think he was ???
As you were born in Scotland.................(not sure what the connection there was) but do you think maybe Robert (your g/father) was born Scotland as I think Turnbull is common on the Scottish borders ???
" Answer - my mother only ever spoke of NBL never claimed any Scot roots. I was born in Glasgow 1946 as my father and mother both Air Force during war demobbed in the north. I have been sent a number of pages of notes sent to a second cousin on the maternal Winn side Hill. She had a lot of contact with George Turnbull (deceased 10 years now). I am going to read these pages to see if he has anything of interest to add. Robert
Annie
ADDED.....You haven't answered my question as in......do you know if your g/father Robert had any brother's/sisters ???
This would help in tracing them on a census
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Back again, sorry - No I do not have any idea about brothers or sisters. Robt & Jessie did have a son Robert William (died very soon after birth) and the George Stroud. Haven't thought if that could be brother's names. Not much help there I am afraid. All of the relations I have met have no knowledge of Robert's family at all. He was a loner apparently. Keeping out of the way of his in-laws no doubt, They did what they said Jessie's father and mother dies 1932 and 1936 respectively - Jane gave all her wealth to a house maid. It is frustrating! I have been grasping at some people and following through until I eliminate them. A tedious way finding someone by elimination, however, I have no choice it seems.
Robert
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The Robert Turnbull born 25 June 1882 that I was looking at - 1911 Census signature does have a brother George William Turnbull age 27. I have followed this family back through their census all in Prudhoe Castle area. Robert
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I have tried to link Lacelot Algood Turnbull (a witness on the marriage certificate) and cannot verify any real link to the Turnbull brothers of Crow Hall Farm.
Lancelot Algood Turnbull born 1894 Cramlington , father George mother Catherine
1881 3 x name Lancelot in same household at Crow Hall Farm, Cramlington ;)
Lancelot b c1814 b Scotland (Head)
Lancelot c 1854 b Netherwitton, NBL (Son)
Lancelot c 1872 b Dunston, Durham, father George (Grandson)
There is a birth for a Robert (1885) Ashington, father Robert, mother Sarah Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NYH8-G62 ???
Annie
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Thank you Annie,
It is almost 11:00pm here just north of Sydney and I have an early start in the morning. I appreciate your interest. I have printed the 1891 to 1911 census for this family to take to bed.
You have opened my mind immensely. Regards,
Robert
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Winn - Jane G Gmother and her mother Jane as well. There are Margaret, Sarah and Mary only -
From the 3 females Joyce, Elizabeth & Joan.........seems none were named after the Winn line ???
I am beginning to wonder if Robert was married before & maybe that was his middle name & father not Robert at all ???
Of course there is a difference for his birth 1882 - 1893 which could be anywhere in between ::)
Annie
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The Robert Turnbull born 25 June 1882 that I was looking at - 1911 Census signature does have a brother
Robert,
I think you need to move away from that 1911 census ???
The signatures don't match & now you need to go an alternative route ::)
Will send a PM ;)
Annie
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I do agree this Robert 25/6/1882 looks a "no go". Oh well, by elimination I must be closer.
Robert