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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: dhouston on Friday 03 July 15 04:22 BST (UK)
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Hello.
Does anyone have John Jabez Roberts in their family tree?
He was an invalid who resided Wairarapa 1880s and 90s.
He was father of Ellen Winnie, nee Roberts, Henry Pim Roberts and Thomas Earl Roberts.
Thank you.
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Nope, not me.
Is there a particular aspect of this family you want some help on, or is it just a general enquiry?
Alan
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His death
1897/5897 Roberts John Jabez 70Y
Sons deaths
1952/22193 Roberts Henry Pim 85Y
1949/30627 Roberts Thomas Earl 83Y
Cheers Janette
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All 3 are buried in Karori cemetery
http://wellington.govt.nz/services/community-and-culture/cemeteries/cemeteries-search
Cheers Janette
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Does anyone have John Jabez Roberts in their family tree?
He was an invalid who resided Wairarapa 1880s and 90s.
He was father of Ellen Winnie, nee Roberts, Henry Pim Roberts and Thomas Earl Roberts.
Thank you.
Hi dhouston
According to his death notice, John Jabez ROBERTS was the uncle (and not the father) of Ellen WINNIE, Henry ROBERTS and Thomas Earl ROBERTS.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Evening Post" (Wellington) - 4 October 1897 - Deaths - Page 6
ROBERTS - on 2 October 1897 at the residence of his niece, John Jabez ROBERTS, beloved uncle of Mrs O. H. WINNIE and Thomas and Henry ROBERTS. Aged 70 years ... Masterton papers please copy.
~ Lu
also see next post >
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The Probate file of John Jabez ROBERTS is able to be viewed at the Familysearch.org website.
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1865481
..... John Jabez ROBERTS left his real and personal estate to Thomas Earl ROBERTS, baker, of Wellington and also appointed him Executor of his estate. [His Will dated 29 September 1892, does not mention his relationship to Thomas Earl ROBERTS. ]
~ Lu
continues >
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"Mrs O.H. WINNIE" appears to have been Ellen ROBERTS, who had numerous children with Orlando Hannibal (various spellings of this middle name) WINNIE.
Confirmation that Ellen WINNIE was born in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia, comes from the Attestation form on the WW1 Army record of her son, Percy Albert WINNIE. [Source: Archives New Zealand website, Archway]
Thomas Earl ROBERTS and Henry ROBERTS (both births registered 1865) and Ellen ROBERTS (1863) appear to be the children of Edward ROBERTS and Mary CAULFIELD - (births registered at Ballarat East, Victoria, Australia. )
As much information re: ROBERTS and WINNIE families has already been given on the Australia Board, I won't repeat it here. Will add links to those threads, next post.
~ Lu
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Hi dhouston
Threads on Australia Board :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=575178.0
[ROBERTS/SMITH : Puzzle Pieces Missing. ]
Also >> click on the link provided by ~MERLIN~ in his Reply # 1.
~ Lu
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"Mrs O.H. WINNIE" appears to have been Ellen ROBERTS, who had numerous children with Orlando Hannibal (various spellings of this middle name) WINNIE.
Confirmation that Ellen WINNIE was born in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia, comes from the Attestation form on the WW1 Army record of her son, Percy Albert WINNIE. [Source: Archives New Zealand website, Archway]
Thomas Earl ROBERTS and Henry ROBERTS (both births registered 1865) and Ellen ROBERTS (1863) appear to be the children of Edward ROBERTS and Mary CAULFIELD - (births registered at Ballarat East, Victoria, Australia. )
As much information re: ROBERTS and WINNIE families has already been given on the Australia Board, I won't repeat it here. Will add links to those threads, next post.
~ Lu
Thanks Lu.
John's funeral notice mentions that he was Ellen's father.
He was a miner who resided Simmonds Reef Victoria.
I don't believe Edward was Ellen Roberts father.
Orlando Honeyball was Henry Simpson then Orlando Hannibal Winnie. Names changed all the time then for different reasons.
Thank for the information.
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I have copies of attestations.
One of the sons mentions that his mother was Emma Pitt, Orlando's first wife.
Not all information is correct out there.
Alot of information is gathered online but not all of it's correct.
I've been researching since 2000 and have learned to stay open-minded.
I have found errors in books (one published by a Historical Society, regarding Emigrants to Manchester Settlement), online (easy to add information, much hard to correct), newspapers...
Thank you.
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The twins were a year older than what they thought. They celebrated their birthday on the same day but Thomas Earl was 25 days older. Henry pim was Henry Harold when he married Elizabeth alpe. He mentioned that he was born Melbourne not Ballarat West. Mentions his mother was Mary durie not caulfield. Thanks for the replies. Covers most of the information I have regarding John. I Have information from electoral rolls and johns funeral records if anyone wants to share information. Thanks Rootschat.
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The twins were a year older than what they thought. They celebrated their birthday on the same day but Thomas Earl was 25 days older.
I am unsure about the foundation of your belief about the twins birth date and I am assuming the twins you refer to are Henry and Thomas Earl ROBERTS.
Here are the indexed births of the above children taken from the Victorian index.
A copy of the certificates will give you more detail-
Name
Date
Place
Father's name
Father's occupation
Father's age
Father's birthplace
Mother's name
Maiden name
Mother's age
Mother's birthplace
Marriage date
Previous children
Births
ROBERTS Thomas Earl
Father Edward
Mother Mary CAULFIELD
Birth Place BALL
Yea: 1865
Reg Number 19922
ROBERTS Henry
Father Edward
Mother Mary CAULFIELD
Birth Place BALL
Year 1865
Reg Number 19923
Please note the consecutive birth registration numbers mean the births were registered at the same time.One after the other.
Sue
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The twins were a year older than what they thought. They celebrated their birthday on the same day but Thomas Earl was 25 days older.
I am unsure about the foundation of your belief about the twins birth date and I am assuming the twins you refer to are Henry and Thomas Earl ROBERTS.
Here are the indexed births of the above children taken from the Victorian index.
A copy of the certificates will give you more detail-
Name
Date
Place
Father's name
Father's occupation
Father's age
Father's birthplace
Mother's name
Maiden name
Mother's age
Mother's birthplace
Marriage date
Previous children
Births
ROBERTS Thomas Earl
Father Edward
Mother Mary CAULFIELD
Birth Place BALL
Yea: 1865
Reg Number 19922
ROBERTS Henry
Father Edward
Mother Mary CAULFIELD
Birth Place BALL
Year 1865
Reg Number 19923
Please note the consecutive birth registration numbers mean the births were registered at the same time.One after the other.
Sue
I have their birth certificates. The births were registered 1865. The twins were 84 and 86 when they died. They celebrated their 83rd birthday when they turned 84. The birth certificates have the correct dates. All information after that from the twins indicates they were born 1866 and born the same day. That's incorrect. I love my family history, so many mysteries.
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I do not think there were any mysteries in this case.
Perhaps the twins were confused in their advancing years.
Sue
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Further to reply #8, the Funeral Notice appeared in the 'Evening Post' dated 4.10.1897.
"...will leave the residence of his son-in-law, Mr. Winnie......."
An obituary to be found in the 'Wairarapa Daily Times', dated 5.10.1897.
Minniehaha.
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dhouston,
I wonder if you also have either or both of the twins death printouts and I wonder who was the informant for each.
Was it information from these which led you to think John Jabez, not Edward ROBERTS was their father?
Sue
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I do not think there were any mysteries in this case.
Perhaps the twins were confused in their advancing years.
Sue
No. When Henry Roberts married Elizabeth Alpe his marriage certificate mentions he was 24, he was 25. They didn't know their age.
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dhouston,
I wonder if you also have either or both of the twins death printouts and I wonder who was the informant for each.
Was it information from these which led you to think John Jabez, not Edward ROBERTS was their father.
It is my opinion that Edward was Johns known as Edward. How may nieces follow their uncle from Australia to New Zealand, live with them and pay for their uncles funeral?
Henry mentions his mother was Mary Durie not Caulfield. None of the snippets I have are 100% correct. Thomas and Henry died age 84 and 86. Celebrated their 83rd birthday on the same day when they were 84 and their birth certificates mention that Thomas was 25 days older.
The twins didn't know how old they were.
Sue
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dhouston,
I wonder if you also have either or both of the twins death printouts and I wonder who was the informant for each.
Was it information from these which led you to think John Jabez, not Edward ROBERTS was their father.
It is my opinion that Edward was Johns known as Edward. How may nieces follow their uncle from Australia to New Zealand, live with them and pay for their uncles funeral?
Henry mentions his mother was Mary Durie not Caulfield. None of the snippets I have are 100% correct. Thomas and Henry died age 84 and 86. Celebrated their 83rd birthday on the same day when they were 84 and their birth certificates mention that Thomas was 25 days older.
The twins didn't know how old they were.
Sue
So is that No, you don't have death certifications?
Though you have asserted your belief and you do acknowledge it to be an opinion, to my way of thinking you have not cited any documentary evidence which supports it.
I think your line of thinking is speculative and if it were my family, I would require a good deal more.
What documentary evidence I have personally been able to see and which I have mentioned through the thread, does not lend itself to your theory.
Perhaps others who have connections to the family will exchange information with you to help clarify things.
Sue
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How may nieces follow their uncle from Australia to New Zealand, live with them and pay for their uncles funeral?
Excuse me, but in 1899, one of my female ancestors moved to NZ from NSW, to live with her uncle. I am also aware that when her uncle died, that his funeral was paid for by my female ancestor, and further that she received a benefit from his deceased estate. Not only do I know this directly because my female ancestor told me so back in the pre internet era, (so long before family history was a popular hobby), but also I have confirmed it on several occasions since, including a letter addressed to me, on FD letterhead dated in the 1960s.
The amount of movement between NZ and eastern seaboard ports in Australia from about 1870s to WWI is huge. Afterall, it had been anticipated by the English Colonial office that there would be SEVEN colonies federating into one in 1901.
Cheers, JM
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I have their birth certificates. The births were registered 1865. The twins were 84 and 86 when they died. They celebrated their 83rd birthday when they turned 84. The birth certificates have the correct dates. All information after that from the twins indicates they were born 1866 and born the same day. That's incorrect. I love my family history, so many mysteries.
Can you please type up the information from both of those birth certificates?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
Date and place of birth;
name of child and whether present or not;
name of parents (including mother's maiden name);
occupation of parents;
ages and birthplace of parents;
date and place of marriage of parents;
previous children of their marriage noting living or deceased;
signature, description and address of the person who gave the information;
names of witnesses;
date and place of registration.
Thanks,
Cheers, JM
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They celebrated their birthday on the same day but Thomas Earl was 25 days older.
You have misinterpreted the data on the birth certificates. Please read the information under the heading
When and where married. Issue living and deceased.
The births were registered by Edward ROBERTS on 7 Oct 1865 25 days after the births on 12 Sep 1865 so previous issue to Henry was Ellen 2 years and Thomas 25 days....on the date of the registration.
There was no marriage in Melbourne in Sep 1862 between Edward ROBERTS and anyone. Not married.
Henry mentions his mother was Mary Durie not Caulfield
Well he is wrong if he was born 1865 Ballarat.
Cando
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This is possibly the correct man in Ballarat 1869
Insolvency of Edward ROBERTS at Ballarat, moulder. Difficulties and reasons for insolvency include illness of self, wife, family
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/112891623
Sue
ADDING
Perhaps another child-
CORFIELD, Mary Ann
Mother Mary CORFIELD
Father -not listed
At Ball
1861
Reg 13492
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I have copies of attestations.
One of the sons mentions that his mother was Emma Pitt, Orlando's first wife.
Not all information is correct out there.
Alot of information is gathered online but not all of it's correct.
I've been researching since 2000 and have learned to stay open-minded.
I have found errors in books (one published by a Historical Society, regarding Emigrants to Manchester Settlement), online (easy to add information, much hard to correct), newspapers...
Thank you.
Attestations contain information that the enlistee believed to be correct.
All paper based records which are transcribed will contain errors. Nothing is 100% accurate.
Cando
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This is possibly the correct man in Ballarat 1869
Insolvency of Edward ROBERTS at Ballarat, moulder. Difficulties and reasons for insolvency include illness of self, wife, family
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/112891623
Sue
ADDING
Perhaps another child-
CORFIELD, Mary Ann
Mother Mary CORFIELD
Father -not listed
At Ball
1861
Reg 13492
My resource has the birth as COFIELD and the
Death
COFIELD Mary Anne
Father Edward Mother Mary NOT STATED
1862 Ballarat 5 months Reg#184
Cando
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Mmm.. .yes it is COFIELD.
Sue
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Mmm.. .yes it is COFIELD.
Sue
Burial CORFIELD this time ::)
Ballarat Old Cemetery
CORFIELD, Mary Anne
Aged 5 months
Date 28/1/1862
LOCNK (Location Not Known)
Sue
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Easy to understand the mistranscription...some of the writing in the registers is difficult to read.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154872111
Edward ROBERTS and John Jabez ROBERTS had unclaimed letters at the GPO Melbourne in 1856.
Cando
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According to the Electoral Roll of 1896 in New Zealand, John Jabez ROBERTS was registered at two addresses.
One in the same street ( no street numbers are given, so one cannot say the same house) as Ellen WINNIE his niece.
Rhodes St Wellington.
The other in the same street as his nephew Thomas Earl ROBERTS and his wife Honorah
Bute street, Wellington
He is listed as a settler.
Perhaps one of these relatives was the informant on his death certificate and we wonder how much accurate information they had to contribute .
Sue
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ROBERTS John Jabez
Missing friends 21 Sep 1853
'Argus' missing friends index 1851-1853. Marion Button.
Comment: From Liverpool
Cando
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How may nieces follow their uncle from Australia to New Zealand, live with them and pay for their uncles funeral?
Excuse me, but in 1899, one of my female ancestors moved to NZ from NSW, to live with her uncle. I am also aware that when her uncle died, that his funeral was paid for by my female ancestor, and further that she received a benefit from his deceased estate. Not only do I know this directly because my female ancestor told me so back in the pre internet era, (so long before family history was a popular hobby), but also I have confirmed it on several occasions since, including a letter addressed to me, on FD letterhead dated in the 1960s.
The amount of movement between NZ and eastern seaboard ports in Australia from about 1870s to WWI is huge. Afterall, it had been anticipated by the English Colonial office that there would be SEVEN colonies federating into one in 1901.
Cheers, JM
The niece didn't gain money from her uncles estate. Her husband was bankrupt twice. The small estate was left to her brother. I don't have copies of the twins death certificates. An article was published in the newspaper September 1949 regarding the twins 83rd birthday. Was Henry Roberts 84th birthday. Thomas Earl was born August. They didn't know how old they were. Not sure if I will learn anything from their death certificates. Descendants don't seem to have new information or don't wish to share.
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Hi dhouston
I have some more information to add here (and will do so, shortly).
* Would be interested to know please, just which line of this ROBERTS family you are connected to ?
[Simply because we may be able point you in the direction of other researchers. ]
~ Lu
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I don't have copies of the twins death certificates. An article was published in the newspaper September 1949 regarding the twins 83rd birthday. Was Henry Roberts 84th birthday. Thomas Earl was born August. They didn't know how old they were.
dhouston
Please read reply#21. You have misinterpreted the information on the birth certificates. The twins were born on the same day [9 Sep] and the births registered 25 days [7 Oct] later therefore previous issue to Thomas [twin 2] was Ellen 2 years and Twin 1 who was 25 days old at the registration date in Oct. Do you now understand?
Cando
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The niece didn't gain money from her uncles estate. Her husband was bankrupt twice. The small estate was left to her brother. I don't have copies of the twins death certificates. An article was published in the newspaper September 1949 regarding the twins 83rd birthday. Was Henry Roberts 84th birthday. Thomas Earl was born August. They didn't know how old they were. Not sure if I will learn anything from their death certificates. Descendants don't seem to have new information or don't wish to share.
May I please ask about those birth certificates for the twins.... I see that Cando has already mentioned this.
Are you saying that you hold both birth certificates and that you are absolutely sure that the Vic BDM certificates show you that the twins were born 25 days apart? I am not convinced. Apart from anything else, a female in 1865 in labour for 25 plus days .... and both babies of same gender ... possibly identical, so errr .... one placenta ....
They celebrated their birthday on the same day but Thomas Earl was 25 days older.
You have misinterpreted the data on the birth certificates. Please read the information under the heading
When and where married. Issue living and deceased.
The births were registered by Edward ROBERTS on 7 Oct 1865 25 days after the births on 12 Sep 1865 so previous issue to Henry was Ellen 2 years and Thomas 25 days....on the date of the registration.
There was no marriage in Melbourne in Sep 1862 between Edward ROBERTS and anyone. Not married.
Henry mentions his mother was Mary Durie not Caulfield
Well he is wrong if he was born 1865 Ballarat.
Cando
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They celebrated their birthday on the same day but Thomas Earl was 25 days older.
You have misinterpreted the data on the birth certificates. Please read the information under the heading
When and where married. Issue living and deceased.
The births were registered by Edward ROBERTS on 7 Oct 1865 25 days after the births on 12 Sep 1865 so previous issue to Henry was Ellen 2 years and Thomas 25 days....on the date of the registration.
There was no marriage in Melbourne in Sep 1862 between Edward ROBERTS and anyone. Not married.
Henry mentions his mother was Mary Durie not Caulfield
Well he is wrong if he was born 1865 Ballarat.
Cando
Thanks I didn't know the date the births were registered. I was wrong regarding the 25 days. I'm right regarding their ages at death 84 and 86.
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Thanks I didn't know the date the births were registered. I was wrong regarding the 25 days. I'm right regarding their ages at death 84 and 86.
The date the births were registered is recorded on their Victoria birth certificates, and these have unique registration numbers, which are issued consecutively. The birth certificates also include the date of birth, and a great deal more information as Victoria's BDMs are among the most informative in the world. Birth certificates contain information provided first hand by the parents of the babies whose births are being registered.
Cheers, JM
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I have listed, and highlighted, the consecutive registration numbers on the birth registrations of the twins within this thread.
I am afraid your family history research cannot progress if you are not able to "receive" new and correct information. You do not have documentary evidence to support your ascertains.
A newspaper account of a birthday party is not the same as a certificate.
You are mistaken in your belief regarding the twins' birth.
Sue
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The online index for NZ BDM has Thomas Earl ROBERTS as aged 83 years when he died (28 Oct) 1949.
That same online index has Henry Pim ROBERTS as aged 85 years when he died (27 May) 1952.
Surely, this is simply because, like so many BDM admin systems around the world, the family history details are informant driven, and BDMs don't have the funding or the need to employ auditing clerks to validate each detail on the BDM. The informant/s provided the age, as known to the informant. The informant gives the information to the best of their knowledge. So the family history information on a death registration is not first hand information. I would place much greater reliance on the accuracy of the information given, first hand, on a birth certificate, than the information on a death certificate.
Cheers, JM.
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This is possibly the correct man in Ballarat 1869
Insolvency of Edward ROBERTS at Ballarat, moulder. Difficulties and reasons for insolvency include illness of self, wife, family
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/112891623
Sue
ADDING
Perhaps another child-
CORFIELD, Mary Ann
Mother Mary CORFIELD
Father -not listed
At Ball
1861
Reg 13492
My resource has the birth as COFIELD and the
Death
COFIELD Mary Anne
Father Edward Mother Mary NOT STATED
1862 Ballarat 5 months Reg#184
Cando
Thank you. I had Caulfield and Durie as the mother's maiden name.
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Thank you. I had Caulfield and Durie as the mother's maiden name.
dhouston
Then you need to cross out DURIE because it is wrong.
The mother for both the twins was Mary CAULFIELD.
They both had the same mother and at the time of registration of the births, her name was CAULFIELD.
Sue
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Thank you. I had Caulfield and Durie as the mother's maiden name.
dhouston
I wonder if Mary caulfield/corfield married a durie?
I have found an inwards passenger list for Mary cornfield, herald of the morning, liverpool to Victoria 1857 but she's born about 1829.
I have a passenger list for blue jacket arrived Victoria 1855. Its my closest match. John Roberts age 27 labourer, Edward Roberts moulder age 25, Frank Roberts age 24. I'm only guessing again. I descend from Ellen Roberts. None of her children were named Edward but one was Ernest John who died princess hotel Rhodes street Wellington. Another was Francis earl or Frank known as ponty.
Birth certificate for Ellen Roberts born 8 June 1863 Ballarat West states father Edward Roberts age 33 labourer born chester. Mother Mary was 32 born Roscommon Scotland which is Ireland.
Thomas Earl and henry were born 12 September 1865 Ballarat West the father was Edward Roberts age 36 labourer from Liverpool and Mary age 34 born Roscommon Ireland.
Liverpool is close to Chester.
I need to search 1841 and 51 census of Lancashire and Cheshire for this Roberts family and Mary cornfield. Thanks for the snippets. I keep them and try to triangulate information.
Then you need to cross out DURIE because it is wrong.
The mother for both the twins was Mary CAULFIELD.
They both had the same mother and at the time of registration of the births, her name was CAULFIELD.
Sue
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Hi dhouston,
Could you please stop writing your replies within the quotes as they are very difficult to follow,you need to write after the last quote in brackets
Cheers Janette
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Just to clarify so the thread is readable and it does not look as if I am saying things which I am not saying.
I wrote in Reply # 39
Then you need to cross out DURIE because it is wrong.
The mother for both the twins was Mary CAULFIELD.
They both had the same mother and at the time of registration of the births, her name was CAULFIELD.
Sue
You, dhouston wrote in reply#40
I wonder if Mary caulfield/corfield married a durie?
I have found an inwards passenger list for Mary cornfield, herald of the morning, liverpool to Victoria 1857 but she's born about 1829.
I have a passenger list for blue jacket arrived Victoria 1855. Its my closest match. John Roberts age 27 labourer, Edward Roberts moulder age 25, Frank Roberts age 24. I'm only guessing again. I descend from Ellen Roberts. None of her children were named Edward but one was Ernest John who died princess hotel Rhodes street Wellington. Another was Francis earl or Frank known as ponty.
Birth certificate for Ellen Roberts born 8 June 1863 Ballarat West states father Edward Roberts age 33 labourer born chester. Mother Mary was 32 born Roscommon Scotland which is Ireland.
Thomas Earl and henry were born 12 September 1865 Ballarat West the father was Edward Roberts age 36 labourer from Liverpool and Mary age 34 born Roscommon Ireland.
Liverpool is close to Chester.
I need to search 1841 and 51 census of Lancashire and Cheshire for this Roberts family and Mary cornfield. Thanks for the snippets. I keep them and try to triangulate information.
Just click reply to respond.
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Thanks Sue it was beginning to look like a dogs breakfast with all the confusing quotes etc
Cheers Janette
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Hello.
Does anyone have John Jabez Roberts in their family tree?
He was an invalid who resided Wairarapa 1880s and 90s.
He was father of Ellen Winnie, nee Roberts, Henry Pim Roberts and Thomas Earl Roberts.
Thank you.
dhouston,
So far nothing you have offered on this thread supports this assertion.
Sue
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Thanks Lu.
John's funeral notice mentions that he was Ellen's father.
He was a miner who resided Simmonds Reef Victoria.
I don't believe Edward was Ellen Roberts father.
Orlando Honeyball was Henry Simpson then Orlando Hannibal Winnie. Names changed all the time then for different reasons.
Thank for the information.
Hi dhouston
I just wanted to address a few earlier comments you made (some of which have since been touched upon by "sparrett" (Sue) and "cando".)
The above were contained in your Reply # 8 :
Firstly - "John's funeral notice mentions that he was Ellen's father ".
The Funeral notice which I viewed - "Evening Post" (Wellington) dated 4 October 1897 - page 6 / column 1 - and has clearly been placed by the Funeral Director (it bears FD's address and telephone number) - actually says nothing of the sort.
What is does say is "The friends of John J. Roberts are respectfully invited to attend his Funeral which will leave the residence of his Son-in-law, Mr. WINNIE..."
We of course know from other "findings" that O.H. WINNIE was the common-law husband of Ellen ROBERTS, and that John Jabez ROBERTS died at their residence. Mr WINNIE as head of the household, was very likely the person charged with dealing with the undertaker.
BUT given that there was also a death notice placed by the family of J.J. ROBERTS' (same newspaper, same date, same page) - which clearly spelled out that he was the "beloved uncle of Mrs O.H. WINNIE, Henry and Thomas ROBERTS", it seems much more likely that the undertaker had simply misunderstood Mr WINNIE's relationship to the deceased.
In my view, the undertaker made an error regarding relationship of deceased to Mr WINNIE.
It's not a reason to jump to the conclusion that "I don't believe Edward was Ellen Robert's father".
More especially when you have said (on Australian thread) that you had the birth certificate for Ellen ROBERTS.
If you have any lingering doubts though, then it would be prudent to purchase the death "printout" for John Jabez ROBERTS.
~ Lu
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I have copies of attestations.
One of the sons mentions that his mother was Emma Pitt, Orlando's first wife.
Hi dhouston
Your above comment was in response to my Reply # 6.
You didn't specify which "son's attestation" contained that information so it took me some time to locate it.
* Please though, have another look at the file.
It applies to the attestation form [at Image 8] WW1 NZ Army record for Hector Vincent WINNIE.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz
He has given is mother's name as "Ellen" (not Emma).[/u]
Provision was not always made on these forms for the inclusion of "Mother's maiden name", but yes, the surname "PITT" has been entered. [And "PITT" was the maiden surname of his father Orlando's first wife. So clearly Hector WINNIE has made an error there... for whatever reason. ]
However, he does give the birthplace of his mother Ellen, as "Ballarat, Australia".
[The known birthplace of Ellen ROBERTS. ]
The WINNIE family history seems to be well documented and I'm sure like me, you've read somewhere that Emma PITT (1st wife of Orlando WINNIE), was New Zealand-born and possibly of Maori descent, having also the alternative surname of PORUTU (or somesuch ?)
When we research our family history, the results we get, aren't always "black and white".
The fact is, that errors in information do occur ... be they on "official" documents or "other" records.
~ Lu
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It is my opinion that Edward was Johns known as Edward. How may nieces follow their uncle from Australia to New Zealand, live with them and pay for their uncles funeral?
Hi again dhouston
I don't recall reading here (or on the Australian threads), how, when or with whom, the niece (Ellen ROBERTS) arrived in New Zealand ?
How is that you know the niece followed the uncle from Australia ??
[It is recorded that Ellen was in New Zealand in 1877 when she wed Daniel McPHERSON . Can't see a researcher who has that marriage certificate (it would however contain only limited information - though knowing the marriage witnesses might prove helpful ? As indeed would the Intention to Marry notice which should state who gave permission for the very young Ellen, to marry. ]
The short obituary for John Jabez ROBERTS - "Wairarapa Times" - 5 October 1897 - page 2 - Local and General, appears to be where you sourced the information that he was an invalid ? It also states that he lived in Masterton (Wairarapa) for a time. Seemingly he came to Wellington when he was incapacitated, and was taken care of by both his niece (Ellen) and nephew (Thomas ROBERTS).
* Please have a further look at that obituary.
It makes mention that John Jabez ROBERTS was a member of Court Loyal Enterprise, A.O.F.*, Masterton ... and reports that "the benefits of the order were fully extended in this case".
[*A.O.F. (Ancient Order of Foresters) "lodges" or "courts" were originallly set up as "burial societies". Members of same made regular monetary contributions, and in turn the society would later pay their funeral costs (and sometimes "sickness" benefits.) The Will of J.J. Roberts made no mention that his executor was responsible for paying funeral costs, so it would seem that the "Lodge" paid the associated expenses ... and not his niece or nephews. A notice from an affiliated Wellington "Lodge" requesting members attendance at J.J. ROBERTS funeral, can be seen directly under his funeral notice. ]
~ Lu
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It is my opinion that Edward was Johns known as Edward. How may nieces follow their uncle from Australia to New Zealand, live with them and pay for their uncles funeral?
Hi again dhouston
I don't recall reading here (or on the Australian threads), how, when or with whom, the niece (Ellen ROBERTS) arrived in New Zealand ?
How is that you know the niece followed the uncle from Australia ??
[It is recorded that Ellen was in New Zealand in 1877 when she wed Daniel McPHERSON . Can't see a researcher who has that marriage certificate (it would however contain only limited information - though knowing the marriage witnesses might prove helpful ? As indeed would the Intention to Marry notice which should state who gave permission for the very young Ellen, to marry. ]
The short obituary for John Jabez ROBERTS - "Wairarapa Times" - 5 October 1897 - page 2 - Local and General, appears to be where you sourced the information that he was an invalid ? It also states that he lived in Masterton (Wairarapa) for a time. Seemingly he came to Wellington when he was incapacitated, and was taken care of by both his niece (Ellen) and nephew (Thomas ROBERTS).
* Please have a further look at that obituary.
It makes mention that John Jabez ROBERTS was a member of Court Loyal Enterprise, A.O.F.*, Masterton ... and reports that "the benefits of the order were fully extended in this case".
[*A.O.F. (Ancient Order of Foresters) "lodges" or "courts" were originallly set up as "burial societies". Members of same made regular monetary contributions, and in turn the society would later pay their funeral costs (and sometimes "sickness" benefits.) The Will of J.J. Roberts made no mention that his executor was responsible for paying funeral costs, so it would seem that the "Lodge" paid the associated expenses ... and not his niece or nephews. A notice from an affiliated Wellington "Lodge" requesting members attendance at J.J. ROBERTS funeral, can be seen directly under his funeral notice. ]
~ Lu
Thanks Lu and all concerned.
I had most of the information.
The Corfield surname was new to me and could be the surname of the Mary Caulfield that I was looking for.
I understand that the 25 days was the time between the twin's birth and date of registration.
I have records of Funeral Director Edward Morris Junior, Ellen's husband Orlando paid for the funeral of John Jabez Roberts.