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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: brookeratheber on Thursday 02 July 15 12:41 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find the birth details of a child born to a wartime romance. The father was an American pilot named William Baker from Minnesota. The only details I have of the mother is that her name was Peg or Peggy. The child would probably have been born between Sept 1944 and July 1945. Is there anyway I can find further info? William Baker was killed at Arnhem in Sept 1944 and the child would not have known the father. I have lots of info to pass on if I can locate the child.
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Hi
Was the child born in the UK, what year was William Baker born
Margp
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William Baker Born 22 October 1919 in Red Wood Falls, Minnesota
Came to Britain June 1943 for training
Started Operational flying Feb 1944
Killed at Arnhem Sept 1944.
Had a baby with girlfriend Peg, Peggie, Peggy.
No details of baby's gender or name
I am assuming baby would have been born in UK somewhere between March 1944 and July 1945,
It doesn't give me a lot to work on!
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Hi
Do you know what area he was Stationed
Margp
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Any idea where he was stationed in the UK as that would narrow down where the child was probably born, as presumably Peggy lived near the base? However, without a surname of the mother I would think it unlikely you could find the child, as it would probably have been registered in the mother's name with no father on the certificate. Even more so if you don't know if it was male or female.
Having said that it has been known for Rootschatters to find the impossible!
Sorry Marg, just seen you asked the same.
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He was based at Tarrant Rushton in Dorset from Feb 1944 to about April 1944
Then Keevil in Wiltshire to August 1944
Then Harwell Oxfordshire from August until the time of his death in September 1944
He was killed at Arnhem in September 1944 and a St Christopher Medallion was found at the aircraft crash inscribed "With Love, Peggy" - so she was still very much in his mind in Sept 1944.
I have been searching for relatives of William Baker for some 20 years, then last week with the help of RootsChat I located his sister in America. She mentioned the girlfriend "Peggy" which ties in with the St Christopher medallion, and she mentioned they had a child. So I am now trying to find the child!
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Keep in mind that Peggy's name might (officially) be Margaret. ;)
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Perhaps it might be a good idea to see if the sister has anymore clues. Looking at the dates, I would favour him having met her in Wiltshire. However a search for babies born between Sept 1944 and June 1945 brings up over 11,500.
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Hi
There is this birth
Mother's Maiden name of "Trent"
Date July Aug Sept qtr of 1945
Reg district of Weymouth in Wiltshire
Volume 5a Page 562
Margp
Edited name removed
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Many thanks - that is certainly worth further investigation!
Paul
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Many thanks - that is certainly worth further investigation!
Paul
I have found a marriage for her and also an address on the Electoral Register if you wish to pursue it further
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Yes please - all leads worth following through!
Thanks
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Yes please - all leads worth following through!
Thanks
I will send you a PM later, I have to go out now
Margp
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Weymouth is in Dorset
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Is this the right William?
www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2644251/BAKER,%20WILLIAM
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Yes, that is the right William - Pilot of my Uncle's Stirling aircraft.
Although it shows he was in the Royal Canadian Airforce William Baker actually came from Minnesota, USA. Had slight asthma and USAF wouldn't accept him, so he joined RCAF instead!
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Just a query about that birth - it was September quarter 1945 so therefore the baby was born July, August or September of that year. Meaning it must have been conceived October, November or December 1944. Therefore it can't be right as you said "William Baker was killed at Arnhem in Sept 1944" Even if that baby was born in June and not registered until the following quarter, I doubt if William would have known Peggy was pregnant before he died.
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I wonder whether the sister could recall at least whether the baby was born before William's death, or whether the family in the US learned of the birth posthumously?
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Even if it was posthumously, if my maths is right, it can't be the one Marg found can it? I'd hate for brookeratheber to approach the wrong person with something as delicate as this.
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Sorry I can't be much more help!
The sister was only a teenager at the time and she "overheard" a conversation that was not really meant for her indicating that her brother had left a child behind. She really can't recall after over 70 years the exact time of the conversation. All she knows is that there was a baby and the girlfriend was Peggy. William's mother (and sister) were and in America so I guess the information may have been somewhat sketchy. It appears that William's mother was (naturally) very distraught over losing her son, but didn't want to know about the baby, so we know very little.
But maybe the baby would like to know more about its father if we can find him / her?
Thanks everybody for your help!
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Even if it was posthumously, if my maths is right, it can't be the one Marg found can it? I'd hate for brookeratheber to approach the wrong person with something as delicate as this.
Yes, sorry - my point was a separate one (aimed at narrowing the dates and thus shrinking the haystack a bit). I agree with everything you've said. :)
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But maybe the baby would like to know more about its father if we can find him / her?
Dont forget that the baby will now be 70 and may not be aware that he/she is the child of an American or infact that they were illegitimate. They may believe that their mother's husband is their father. This would need to be approached very carefully and the facts checked before anyone is contacted. For instance, have you noted my previous post as to why I don't think it can be the one quoted?
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Thanks for all the help
I agree that facts must be 100% checked and tack & consideration for others must be given.
"Fools must not rush in where angels fear to tread!"
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Not only that but as I pointed out earlier, Weymouth is in Dorset, I don't think it should read Reg, District, Weymouth, Wiltshire.
Weymouth is at least 60 miles from Keevil and even farther from Harwell.
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I think the best you can hope for is that the child is looking for details of his/her father, because from the limited information you have, I don't think you'd find them in a month of Sundays.
Might they have posted his name/their mother's name here ....
http://www.awon.org/discus/messages/14/499.html?1432505380
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I know someone whose father was an American GI who was killed. When their mother contacted his parents she had a letter back accusing her of trying to get money from them, so she destroyed anything to do with him and wouldn't talk about it. The child found out from another family member but could never get their mother to provide any information before she died.
The date of birth is wrong for any connection to the OPs GI but I think this scenario could be common.
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Have you tried putting his details in the local newspaper and asking if anyone remembers him? You would have to word it carefully but someone might come forward.
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There were still US forces in the UK for some years after 1945.
And do not forget that 65 years ago, attitudes to unmarried mothers were completely different from what they are today. Many Single girls living at home would have been forced to give up their babies for Adoption or to go and live in an orphanage.
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There were still US forces in the UK for some years after 1945.
That isn't relevant in this case as we know William died in 1944. However, you are right in the fact that the child could easily have been adopted, in which case, unless they were told at some point who their birth mother and father were, there is virtually no chance of finding them.
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I think the relevance is that some US servicemen who remained in the UK after the war was over, and if they were informed by a woman that the woman was expecting his baby, I am willing to speculate that many of those men would shrug their shoulders and think or say "That's not my problem" and the US authorities may have given the Serviceman a quick transfer.
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This is very true Jan. A member of my family was born in February 1945 and was adopted into the family, having been put in an orphanage by his birth mother.
When he was adult, he applied for his adoption papers which gave the name of his birth mother. He found that she had died, but that he had half-brothers and half-sisters, but none of them had any information about his natural father, other than that he was American and died some months before he was born in France. He must be one of thousands of children born at that time, whose fathers went off to war and never returned; and with the death of his birth mother, any possible chance of finding more about his paternity was totally lost.
As ScouseBoy says, attitudes towards unmarried mothers were so different in those days, and without a supportive family, it was almost impossible for a woman to keep her child. Most gave them up for adoption in the hope of a better life for them with a new family, which must have been heart-breaking.
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And another reason why parents sometimes NEED to know who are there biological parents are, is in the case of it being discovered that they may have inherited a medical condition, and in turn they could pass it on to their own children.
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Not sure if anyone has alluded to this yet, but the child must have been born posthumously (after its father's death) since William arrived in England in February 1944 and died on 23 September 1944, which is a period of eight months at the most.
Had the child been conceived whilst he was at Tarrant Rushton, Dorset it would have probably been born between November 1944 and February 1945.
A relationship at Keevil, Wiltshire would have resulted in a birth approximately February 1945 - June 1945.
And had Peggy been at Harwell the likely birth dates would have been between June 1945 and July 1945.
(Someone might like to check my arithmetic here!)
Another point worth making is that Peggy is likely not to have given birth in her home area because of the stigma attached to illegitimacy in those days. It is most likely, depending on her family's attitude to her pregnancy, that she was either sent off to live with a distant relative where she could post as a young, pregnant widow; or alternatively she could have been sent to a home for unmarried mothers in another area of the country where her 'shame' could not be uncovered by the neighbours.
Such a sad story for all concerned; I don't hold out much hope for you finding the child but as Groom said earlier, miracles do happen on RC!
Kind regards
GS
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Well spotted, GS, something we all missed. So in actual fact, William can only have told his family that Peggy was expecting his child and not that they had a child. They would only have known of the arrival of the baby if Peggy had informed them after its birth.
Reading back, it does seem as if the only evidence of this child comes from something overheard by a teenager 70 years ago. I have just had another thought! Could it be that Peggy was not in fact a girl he met in England, but one he left behind in America and that she gave him the St Christopher to keep him safe before he left?
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William Baker Born 22 October 1919 in Red Wood Falls, Minnesota
Came to Britain June 1943 for training
Started Operational flying Feb 1944
Killed at Arnhem Sept 1944.
Had a baby with girlfriend Peg, Peggie, Peggy.
No details of baby's gender or name
I am assuming baby would have been born in UK somewhere between March 1944 and July 1945,
It doesn't give me a lot to work on!
William came to Britain in June 1943
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I missed that, Marg - I was going from the list of places in which William served in England, given by the OP. This means that his whereabouts are not accounted for from June 1943 - February 1944. Again similar calculations could give a dob bandwidth, and there was sufficient time for him to form a relationship with 'Peggy'. However, as Jan says, the St Christopher could very likely have been a gift from a girl back home to keep him safe on his foreign travels.
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He was based at Tarrant Rushton in Dorset from Feb 1944 to about April 1944
Then Keevil in Wiltshire to August 1944
Then Harwell Oxfordshire from August until the time of his death in September 1944
He was killed at Arnhem in September 1944 and a St Christopher Medallion was found at the aircraft crash inscribed "With Love, Peggy" - so she was still very much in his mind in Sept 1944.
So we need to know where he was based before he started operations, as he is more likely to have had time to meet a local girl while training.
I still think that given the very limited information this will be very difficult.
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Hi brook
Have you got William's War Record, to see where he was based at the time of his arrival
Margp
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Hi
Here is the link for the details of William's War Records, that's if you don't already have them
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/second-world-war/second-world-war-dead-1939-1947/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=1392&
Margp
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Here is some info about how to order his complete military file....I don't know whether these files are part of a digitization project. You never know what info might turn up in the file.
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/second-world-war/second-world-war-dead-1939-1947/Pages/files-second-war-dead.aspx#e
PB
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Will there be a record for him as it says?
Related Pdf file(s)
0 pdf file(s) found for item "1392".
Does that mean his record is either missing or not been transcribed?
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I think it means it has not been transcribed, as in digitized. I believe files become Pdf ones when they are digitized. The file should be available to order. If not, LAC would let one know at that time, I would assume.
PB
Edited to add...here is a link with a bit more general info about the files...
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/second-world-war/second-world-war-dead-1939-1947/Pages/files-second-war-dead.aspx
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While admiring your good intentions and tenacity, There are so many seemingly insurmountable hurdles for you to overcome, don't you think?
After the passage of 70 years, and with so little basic facts to go on, I cannot see that you will get much further forward, Sorry.
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Unfortunately, I think that ScouseBoy may be correct.
I understand from your other thread that "William Baker was the pilot of my uncles Stirling aircraft" so isn't actually related to you. Has his sister in America asked you to find this child?
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I agree, but it is worth ago, we have a short time frame of when the child was born, and if we can get an area where he was, we can then look at children born out of wedlock.
Margp
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I agree, but it is worth ago, we have a short time frame of when the child was born, and if we can get an area where he was, we can then look at children born out of wedlock.
Margp
But we don't actually know that Peggy was unmarried, do we? - she wouldn't have been the first married women to take up with an American GI, so I don't think we can just assume that she was single.
And even if she was single, there's no guarantee that when she registered the child's birth, she provided 100% accurate information about herself.
I still think the best bet is if the child, or someone on behalf of the child, is looking for the father, and the website link I posted a few days ago would be a good place to start.
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I think the best thing would be to ask the sister if she wants to take an Autosomal DNA test such as FamilyFinder.
If it did lead to a match the added bonus would be that the matched person was already looking for relatives themselves.
Frank
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I think I am backing out of this, as I am uncomfortable with the fact that the OP may be looking for someone unrelated, so unless they can confirm they have permission from the family, I'll leave it to others.
There is far too little to go on, what a teenager over heard, a St Christopher, and a first name. We have no guarantee that the baby survived and if it did it was probably adopted, so that is another problem. Unless the birth family have actually stated that they want to meet this child, I think too much hurt may be caused just so that the OP can pass on information.
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I agree, but it is worth ago, we have a short time frame of when the child was born, and if we can get an area where he was, we can then look at children born out of wedlock.
Margp
That is pure speculation and possibly wildly inaccurate.
We do not know that she was an unmarried mother. Do you realise how many extra-marital affairs that there were during WW2? Do you realise how many widows and orphans were created during WW2?
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No, we don't know anything about her, I am just putting up suggestion, that may, or may not help, I agree with Groom we need to know more about why the OP is researching this
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Hi all
I appreciate everyones help & comments
The sister in America & her nieces would love to know if they have a further relative (Tact is of course required)
I have found lots of needles in haystacks in the past! I am not afraid of failure, but I am afraid of not trying!
Thanks again
Paul
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Good luck then, brookeratheber, I think you will have your work cut out though unless the Aunt can remember anything more. I think you need to trace William's movements before active service before doing anything else. Even then, as Freebmd records give only the mother's maiden name, not her first name, you will still have lots of records to eliminate. As people have said, she could have been married or widowed, in which case the baby would be registered in her married name and her maiden name would be given - so really you would have to consider all babies born in that time span. You also need to remember that if the baby was adopted he/she will have had their name changed after that.
I think a better way would to have letters published in papers where he was, saying that you are looking for anyone who knew William Baker, hopefully that might lead to something.
I don't mean to sound negative, just trying to be logical.
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Hi
Here is the link for the details of William's War Records, that's if you don't already have them
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/second-world-war/second-world-war-dead-1939-1947/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=1392&
Margp
Hi Paul, have you looked at getting William's War Records
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Hi
Whilst Peggy may have been a local to where William was stationed it is also possible she wasn't. Peggy could have been a Servicewomen, or in the Land Army, or one of the other wartime occupations that women filled. The baby could have been born anywhere, locally to one of the bases William had been stationed, where Peggy came from if she wasn't local, or, as many women in her predicament did, go away to give birth.
If you haven't done so I would get a copy of Williams Service Record to see if there was any mention of Peggy, also, look to see if he left a will. Many Servicemen did, so you could check to see how you find a Canadian Serviceman's will for WW2.
Andy
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The will is a good idea, as if he knew that he was going to be a father, or if in fact the baby was born before William was killed, he may have mentioned it and Peggy. Andy also has a good point about Peggy could have been from anywhere.