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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: grundy51 on Sunday 14 June 15 16:34 BST (UK)
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In Wormhill parish church there is a stone tomb/mausoleum on which there is an engraved inscription commemorating the death of John Needham, his wife (can't read the name) and at least two daughters Elizabeth and Ann. The engraving is difficult to read especially the dates. Can anyone help please.
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Hi
Have you tried here, there are a few Needhams here
http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/cemetery.php?cemetery=3025&scrwidth=1600
claire
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Thanks for the prompt reply. The website is quite useful but unfortunately it has the same problem that I found as they cannot read the inscription on the tomb
Nigel Needham
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Hi
Have you tried g**gling the family. It looks like there was a prominent Needham family in the area.
claire
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Claire
I'm trying to confirm other information I've managed to glean. The Needham's appear to have come from High Needham, which is close to Wormhill, and consequently there are many Needham/Nedham/Nedeham families in the area. The burial information that could come from the Wormhill tomb will almost certainly provide crucial information about the Needham family tree. I was hoping the post would unearth some earlier work on the Wormhill gravestones before the inscription on the Needham tomb had become difficult to decipher.
Thanks for your help
Nigel
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I'm only a couple of miles from Wormhill --want me go take a look?
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Marmalady.
A second opinion would be great. Thanks for the offer.
Nigel
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I'll try n pop over either today or later this week
Any idea whereabouts in the graveyard the grave is?
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Hi
The tomb is round the back of the church; I don't think you'll miss it. See picture. As you approach you'll see the Needham coat of arms; the inscription is on the rear side. You can clearly make out that the tomb is for John Needham, his wife ( can't read her name) and at least two daughter's (Ann & Elizabeth). I can't read any of the dates. Interestingly on the Gravestone Photographic Resources website there is no picture of the tomb. This might suggest that the tomb has been rebuilt with the coat of arms and inscriptions included.
I'm attempting to link the Needham's in Derbyshire together and I'm intrigued by those that are in Wormhill and how they link to the Needham's from High Needham and those in Chelmorton. The tomb is the only one I've found that has the Needham coat of arms on, which suggests in itself that the people in the tomb are from the Needham's of Thornsett and Cowley, who are direct descendants of the Needham's from High Needham.
I'm very grateful for your kind offer to help but please don't put yourself out on my behalf.
Nigel Needham
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As you say, that monument is definitely unmissable!
And very worn & pretty much illegible
Think John is of Hargate Wall
Couldn't read his wife's name
I think the daughters were infant deaths -- their ages seem to be in months
Dates in roman numerals
Have got some photos -- will upload them later and see if playing around with editing them makes reading easier
Will also try a different time of day to see if the sun in a different position helps
Being of Hargate & Wormhill, I would think they are connected to the Peak Forest / Castleton Needhams than the ones around Earl Sterndale / Chelmorten / High Needham -- but that is just supposition -- I haven't investigated the family at all
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By the way, have you been in touch with DARG (Derbyshire Ancestral Research Group)?
They transcribed MIs for Wormhill back in 2006
http://darg.gukutils.org.uk/WormhillMIs.shtml
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Thanks for the info.
I had identified the the potential age of the children and thought the dates were in roman numerals but you have added another piece to the jigsaw with John coming from Hargate Well. I thought I knew derbyshire but I haven't heard of the place.
The Needham's of Castleton are definitely linked to those from High Needham and Thornsett. The earliest reference I have is of Christopher Needham ( born in Thornsett) owning property in Castleton in 1427. From him a number of Needham's in Castleton are descended.
I will get in touch with DARG - I haven't heard of then before.
I see you are interested in Derbyshire Needham's; what part of Derbyshire are they from and would you be interested in cooperating? My aim is to set up a Needham website based on the work I've done. This centres on the Needham's from Sheffield, Chemorton, Hope/Tideswell, Hartington, Castleton, Chesterfield and Rotherham. Of course there is extensive work published on the Needham line based on the Earls of Kilmorey and their links back to the Needham's from High Needham.
Thanks again for your help
Nigel
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Hargate Wall is an area in Wormhill parish -- mostly just a collection of farms -- but in late Victorian times a large country house was built called Hargate Hall (now a wedding venue & holiday apartments)
We were in touch last year about my Needham family of Hartington Upper Quarter - you helped convince me I had got some of my tree wrong and that my James Needham was probably not the son of Robert N of Liverpool, although we did not manage to sort out for definite who his parents were
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Sorry, I can't help with the MI. I have a copy of the parish register transcriptions that mention:
John NEEDHAM of Hargatewall (no age provided), buried 23 April 1808
Elizabeth NEEDHAM (no age provided but see the christening below), Dau of Jno (dec) & Olivet, of Hargatewall, buried 17 May 1808
Olive NEEDHAM of Hargatewall, aged 49 years, buried 17 May 1827
Ann NEEDHAM of Hargatewall, aged 19 years, buried 20 Apr 1821
Elizabeth Dau of John & Olivel NEEDHAM of Hargatewall, christened 18 October 1807
There are other Needhams of Hargatewall mentioned in the parish register.
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That certainly seems to be the correct family group!
There did not seem to be much more (if anything) in the inscription than names, ages & dates
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Ancestry has this marriage which seems a good fit name & date wise, and Tinsley is near Sheffield -- so not too far away
Name: John Needham
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 24 Dec 1798
Marriage Place: Tinsley,York,England
Spouse: Olive Swindin
FHL Film Number: 919319
The image on FindMyPast shows John Needham of Darley & Olive Swindin, sp by Licence
FindMyPast also has a transcript of the licence
John Needham was aged 47 (born 1751) of Darley, Derbyshire
Olive Swindin was aged 20, of Tinsley Yorks
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And FamilySearch has the following baptisms at Darley, Derbyshire children of John & Olive Needham:
2 Sept 1801 Ann
17 July 1803 Hannah
13 Jun 1806 Martha
So Ann bpt 1801 matches Ann buried 1821 aged 19
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In 1814, a "John Needham of Hargate Wall, parish Hope, co. Derby carrying on business at Litton-Mills, parish Hope aforesaid, cotton-spinner" was listed as Bankrupt.
And again in 1835
Death notices:
Notts Review 25 May 1827
On the 11th inst after a protracted and painfull illness, aged 49 , Mrs Needham relict of the late Mr John Needham of Hargate Wall, nr Tideswell
Manchester Courier 27 April 1866
April 23rd in his 79th year, John Needham Esq formerly of Hargate Wall Derbyshire
So if the bankrupt John Needham is the same as the one who died in 1866, he cannot be a son of John & Olive, but possibly from an earlier marriage of John Neeedham snr?
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Woke up this morning to find that my problem has been solved. Thank you all for your help. Could I ask a couple of questionss on where people got their inforrmation from:
1. Adnepos_Iacobi: where did you get your parish register transcriptions from?
2. Marmalady: where did you get the bankrupt info from and what website did you access the newspaper info from?
Thanks again for all your help
Nigel
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The Bankruptcy info came from notices in newspapers
I accessed those (and the death notices) via FindMyPast -- I searched "John Needham" with keyword of "Hargate"
But on further checking, the second John Needham seems to a son of Ellis Needham of Hargate
(there was also a death notice in 1855 for a Hannah Needham, daughter of the late Ellis N of Hargate who died at the home of her brother John N in Pendleton)
So how did John & Olive connect? Why did they move from Darley to Wormhill for the last few years of John's life? And who erected that great tomb - the largest in the graveyard?
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Notice in the Chester Courant 5 Aug 1806 ( so about the time John & Olive moved from Darley to Hargate) -- details of an Auction "pursuant to the will of the late Samuel Needham of Darley Dale"
1 Freehold Estate in the liberties of Wormhill & Fairfield known as Greatrocks Farm
2 Freehold Estate in the liberty of Castleton
3 A one-fourth part or share of the Blue John Mine now worked on the Estate
Details to be had from Mr Needham, Hargate Wall (amongst others)
So is Samuel the father of John & Olive?
or brother?
Bpts Castleton
1751 John son of Thomas & Ann
1757 Samuel son of Thomas & Ann
(also John 1753, Jacky 1754, Hannah 1759, James 1762, Betty 1765, William 1768)
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Marmalady
Thanks for all your help. I'll investigaate further and let you know what I find
Nigel
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Hi,
The Ellis Needham of Hargate, mentioned in previous post, was the notorious owner
of Litton Cotton Mill.
There is info on this mill on the net.
Spendlove
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...where did you get your parish register transcriptions from?...
My St Margaret CMB 1674-1905 transcription came from Jean Shannon but I don't think she is active any more. You might try the Derbyshire Family History Society, even though they do not list this item on their website.
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Hi,
I am also researching this Wormhill family and research has been difficult due to popular names/ naming conventions.
Although mostly gleaned from the basic info contained within the Derbyshire CC records coupled with Family Search records. My definite connection to the Robert Needham / Sarah Fern of Perryfoot branch appears to be confirmed but requires more research.
Derbyshire records office is currently showing "Needham" documentation as below although you may have to wade through as it doesn't appear to be in date order.
http://calmview.derbyshire.gov.uk/CalmView/Overview.aspx?s=needham
The Derbyshire records office also hold 2 family trees for Needham family of Peak Forest.....
http://calmview.derbyshire.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=D2575%2fF%2f1-2
Hargate Wall was built by Ellis Needham of Litton Mill fame. He was the grandson of Robert Needham of Perryfoot. Robert's son John, was married to Hannah and both John and his father died 1772.
Cheers,
Skippy
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Welcome to the Needham research clan, Skippy!
I am sure that when Grundy51 sees your post he will be in touch with you about the Wormhill / Castleton / Perryfoot families -- he has amassed a great more info than is in this thread
Sadly my own family (based in Hartington Upper Quarter) do not (yet) connect back to these families
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Hi,
Olive Needham who died 1827.
There is a will on Ancestry probated December 1827.
She describes herself as Widow of Hargate Wall (it is clearly Wall not Hall).
She leaves 2 daughters Hannah & Martha.
Executors - Richard Langdon of Tideswell a Shopkeeper
Jasper Needham of Rusliep Edge, a Gentleman
Spendlove
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Hi All
First let me thank all those who have contributed to the thread. Spendlove & Skippy I've also found the documents you refer to and I'm hoping the trees Skippy mentions will close the loop on some unknowns
Let me try and summarise what I've found since I first asked the question about the tomb in Wormhill graveyard. The info comes mainly from Peak Forest and Wormhill PR, wills and documents in TNA plus the book the Real Oliver Twist by John Waller:
1. The tomb is that of John bap 1772 in Wormhill & Olive Swinden from Tinsley plus two of their 4 daughters. John is the son of John Needham bap 1736 Peak Forest and Hannah Hague. It was JN bap 1736 who bought Hargatewall. John & Olive had 4 children - 3 were baptised in Darley where John moved to farm with his uncle Samuel before returning to Hargatewell where the fourth daughter was born. When Olive died in 1827 she left her estate to her 2 remaining daughters who were both governess's and had moved away from the area
2. The father John bap 1736 married into money and acquired land over the northern part of Derbyshire including Hargatewell. He had three other sons plus John and one daughter. The eldest son, Ellis, lived at Hargatewall after his fathers death and up until he was made bankrupt in 1815. He died in Chapel-en-le-Frith in 1831. Ellis built and managed Litton Mill. He appears to have been a good farmer but was a poor business man and a tyrant of an owner who used orphans from London working them hard. He had the highest death rate of apprentices in the county.
3. John bap 1736 was the son of Robert Needham and Hannah Fryth of Perryfoot. I believe he had three sons John bap 1736 plus Elias and Samuel ( I can't find a baptism for these last 2 sons; if anyone can help I'd be grateful) plus 2 daughters Martha & Hannah. Samuel was wealthy and lived variously at Perryfoot, Stancliff near Darley, and Rushop near Chapel where he died.
4. Roberts father was Elias a yeoman from Perryfoot. Beside Elias I've found a daughter Grace, but I've no doubt there could have been other children. Are there any others?
5. I can find references in TNA back to Needham's (Nedham) being at Wormhill from 1410
6. I've ordered a copy of the family trees of the Needham's of Perryfoot and I'm hoping that it can unravel a few problem areas I have with the Needham's in the area
If anyone would like a copy of the detail I have which is summarised in spreadsheets then please drop me your email and I will send them to you
Nigel Needham
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Hello my great great great grandparents were John needham and Eliza taylor.John was from derbyshire
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James2006
There is a One Name Study website on the Needham's: www.nons.co.uk . You may find information on the site of use to your studies. I believe John Needham & Eliza Taylor lived in Barlow. They are in the Barlow tree on that site
Nigel Needham