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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: kdsoph on Sunday 07 June 15 22:22 BST (UK)
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Hi There!
I have a bit of a mystery that I need help clearing up. I cannot find evidence of the birth of my grandmother, Gweneth Lydia Fordham and her identical twin sister, Sylvia Lily Fordham.
Their parents were Arthur George Fordham and Lena Agnes Baker who married in Mayfield, NSW Australia.
Gweneth and Sylvia were born about 1915 and I have an awesome photo of them sitting on their father's knee as toddlers. He is resplendent in his WWI uniform yet I am unable to find his war records! Would it be a possibility that he served in Britain and has British records? The tartan background in this image gave me that random thought.
The family were possibly together as a boy was born in and around 1918, William John.
So there is no birth record/s and no army record for their father that I can find.
Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction please?
Thank you
Kim :)
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Hi,,,when and where was Arthur born ?
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Ancestry only have NSW births (if this is the resource you've used) up to 1910.
Annette
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Hi Kim,
Births in NSW are only available online (including the Ancestry collection) to 1914.
However, because I have other resources, I am able to give you these three births to your couple up to 1918.
FORDHAM, Sylvia L.
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1915
Reg. 216254.
FORDAHM, Gweneth
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1915
Reg. 216255
FORDHAM, William J.
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1918
Reg. 32176.
The couple are on the NSW Electoral Roll from 1930 in NSW.
I can type up these addresses etc if of interest to you.
Sue
PS. The photo is gorgeous!
He is wearing an Australian uniform
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Here is their marriage from the NSWBDM
6897/1915 FORDHAM ARTHUR G BAKER LENA A HAMILTON
I think Arthur was born in Australia and might be his parents
16436/1893 FORDHAM ARTHUR G WILLIAM M LYDIA S HAMILTON
I can't see his WW1 records either, I think it looks like an Australian uniform too
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Have not located a ww1 record for Arthur.
There is ww2 digitised record for his son William John including photos of him- with his movie star looks!
He died in 1973
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/
Sue
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Hi There!
II have an awesome photo of them sitting on their father's knee as toddlers. He is resplendent in his WWI uniform yet I am unable to find his war records! Thank you
Kim :)
Just a thought here.... ::)
How do you know that the man in this photo is their father, Arthur George?
Is it because you have other photos of him with his wife and children and so can positively identify him?
Who told you- or who wrote on the photo - that the man is their father, Arthur George?
I ask because it is possible the photo was taken of the children with another family relative who was an enlisted man.
Sue
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Hi kdsoph,
I wonder whether the information offered by the helpers here as been of any assistance to you.
Perhaps you will reply and let us know.
Always nice to get feedback on our efforts!
Sue
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Hi Kim,
Welcome from me too :)
There are 2 probate packets for Arthur George FORDHAM at NSW state records. One died 2/3/1959
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Item\995510 and the other died 18/8/1959
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Item\1008308.
Do you know if one is your man? I can photograph these for you if you wish the next time I am there. Probate packets are like a lucky dip - sometimes they contain certs and lots of info and other times not much at all.
regards,
Ros
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Hi Kim,
Welcome from me too.
Do you know Arthur's trade or profession? That information can be helpful, as it can be noted on electoral rolls and also on the BDM certs of his children.
I can see a possible birth for Lena A BAKER. NSW BDM online index (a free to search index, readily available for everyone, not just for Ancestry subscribers) has a Lena A BAKER's birth registered in the Waratah District of NSW in 1892. Waratah and Mayfield are both in the Hunter Region of NSW. The given names of her parents are shown on that index as John and Mary A. The NSW BDM reference is 36699.
Here is the live link to the NSW BDM online index : http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
If you are considering obtaining that birth cert, may I please suggest you obtain the official transcription rather than the ceremonial certificate. Same information, but the transcription is a cheaper option. The official transcribers are licenced by the NSW BDM and the NSW BDM provides contact addresses for them. Each have excellent reputations, so which one to choose is simply up to you. http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Oh my Gosh Thank you all! It has taken me a little bit to figure out how to reply! Thank you so much. Yes to all of the above except to the question of who the man is with nanna and Syl as tots. My mother told me that he was Arthur and she wrote on the back of the photo. I will investigate
Thank you all once again I am in awe so you are all awesome
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Hi all
I still haven't mastered a reply to separate messages so will itemise here ;D
JM:
1. Arthur George Fordham Birth: ? 1893 was a joiner by trade as per 1930 electoral roll.
2. Thank you for Lena Agnes Baker's Birth details. Her parents were John Baker and Mary Anne Blanch. As an aside the family 'story' is that Mary Anne ran off with the milkman and so her face was scratched out of all the photos. I found one suspect who was also a 'Baker' (Archie C.!). lots of smallgoods lol
3. I will try the links you sent me tonight
Thank you again
Kim
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Hi Ros,
Thank you for both of the probate links. I am having trouble with them and will investigate further tonight. As it stands in the wee small hours of the morning I don't know which is which. I had Arthur's death as 18th Aug 1959 and recorded a link that now seems to fail for me
http://search.records.nsw.gov.au/items/1008308 NSW DEATH: #2083/1959.
Thank you again
Kim
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Hi There!
II have an awesome photo of them sitting on their father's knee as toddlers. He is resplendent in his WWI uniform yet I am unable to find his war records! Thank you
Kim :)
Just a thought here.... ::)
How do you know that the man in this photo is their father, Arthur George?
Is it because you have other photos of him with his wife and children and so can positively identify him?
Who told you- or who wrote on the photo - that the man is their father, Arthur George?
I ask because it is possible the photo was taken of the children with another family relative who was an enlisted man.
Sue
Hi Sue,
This may not be Arthur. My mother wrote on the back of the photo and she was not really a reliable source lol. My grandmother (Gwen) told tall tales for fun sometimes and it is highly likely that this has happened.
For years everyone thought he was Albert because Nanna said so, but she was teasing my mother and finally when the timing suited her she said, "no I just said that because he looks like an Albert". So my quest is not made easy ...bless her little cotton socks. :-\
Lena had 3 bothers
- John James Baker who served in Egypt WWI
Arthur Samuel Baker 1891 - 1951
George Frank Baker 1893 - 1983
Arthur George Fordham on the other hand had 2 surviving brothers
- Ernest John Fordham 1884 -1931
Herbert William 1886 - 1945
I can't find Military service for them
I don't have any other photos of the family until after Arthur died (or he was taking it) so the only candidate I have is Lena's brother John James Baker.
Perhaps I'll never know the reality but its still an awesome photo ;D
Thank you again
Kim
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Hi Sue,
This may not be Arthur. My mother wrote on the back of the photo and she was not really a reliable source lol. My grandmother (Gwen) told tall tales for fun sometimes and it is highly likely that this has happened.
For years everyone thought he was Albert because Nanna said so, but she was teasing my mother and finally when the timing suited her she said, "no I just said that because he looks like an Albert". So my quest is not made easy ...bless her little cotton socks. :-\
Lena had 3 bothers
- John James Baker who served in Egypt WWI
Kim
I have had a look at the service history of John James BAKER
The physical description fits the man in the photo (but it is vague)
The age of John James, 26 to 28 years actually suits the man in the photo . I think the chap looked a little old to be Arthur.( b. 1893)
However I do not see an entry of LEAVE on the record which would provide the opportunity for the photo to be taken.
Perhaps others will read it better than me.
If it is a studio portrait, some arrangements would have been made in advance.
The twins are not yet 2 years in the photo I believe.
I am not able to assist with their exact birth date. Are you at all able to help with the month of Gran's birthday?.
It may help if you can find it.
Is there any studio identification on the back of the photo?
Sue
PS
Glad you got the hang of reply ;D ;D
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Hi Sue,
That new feature that NSW BDM provided recently has come in handy ! Gweneth L FORDHAM date of birth is either 9th June 1915 or 10th June 1915. So, as today is 11th June 1915, the NSW BDM online index has only just in the past day, released the information (under the 100 years rule). (Add, Sue's post with the births for the Fordham couple was uploaded 8th June, so just a couple of days before the 100 years had expired before Gweneth's bc reference was listed)
Gweneth L, daughter of Arthur G and Lena A FORDHAM, registered Waratah District with ref no. #46255. (I have not found her twin ::) and I tried to find the births online on the 10th June (ie yesterday as I write this up) but not there, so perhaps Gweneth was born 10th June.
I also tried using "Waratah" as the district, and the dates to search 9 June 1915 to 10 June 1915, and the wild card for the surname. So, perhaps Gweneth was the elder of the twins, born on different days.
Cheers, JM
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Re Birth registration of Twins in NSW
It could possibly be that the 2nd twin may have not been registered for some reason.
I have similar issue in my husband's line. 1 Twin registered, the other is not [& no the other twin
did not die, instead married and had children & was personally known by various still living family]
I even searched several entry numbers either side of the registered twin in case possible transcription error, but no still not found.
I'm suspecting that the 2nd twin's names might have been included with the 1st twin's registration
but without ordering the certificate won't know.
Good luck
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Re Birth registration of Twins in NSW
It could possibly be that the 2nd twin may have not been registered for some reason.
May I gently mention that both were registered as per Sue's post. (notice the consecutive numbering) It is simply that I have not yet found the online listing. There are many flaws in the online index. :)
Hi Kim,
Births in NSW are only available online (including the Ancestry collection) to 1914.
However, because I have other resources, I am able to give you these three births to your couple up to 1918.
FORDHAM, Sylvia L.
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1915
Reg. 216254.
FORDAHM, Gweneth
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1915
Reg. 216255
FORDHAM, William J.
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1918
Reg. 32176.
The couple are on the NSW Electoral Roll from 1930 in NSW.
I can type up these addresses etc if of interest to you.
Sue
PS. The photo is gorgeous!
He is wearing an Australian uniform
Cheers, JM
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Well,
That was lucky for us that the indexes updated at the right convenient moment! ::)
I would think, with that in mind, the photo may have been taken between March and June 1917.
That would make the children just under 2 years and the clothing seems right for that time of year.
I think it may be an out of doors photo as the chap is squinting a little perhaps in the sunlight.
None of this really identifies him, but to date there is no record to suggest it is the father, so you may be seeking a soldier relative who was close to the family and available for photos at that time in 1917.
Sue
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Hi All
Gosh the things you figure out when you find the finer details!
Thank you so much ;D
I would have sworn that Nanna's (Gweneth Lydia) had a birthday in Dec and we all had her as a Sagittarius. 10 June is Gemini - so pertinent for twins. So they celebrated their birthdays near Christmas all of their lives to cover up the fact that their mother Lena was pregnant when she got married to Arthur?! :o
Well,
That was lucky for us that the indexes updated at the right convenient moment! ::)
I would think, with that in mind, the photo may have been taken between March and June 1917.
That would make the children just under 2 years and the clothing seems right for that time of year.
I think it may be an out of doors photo as the chap is squinting a little perhaps in the sunlight.
None of this really identifies him, but to date there is no record to suggest it is the father, so you may be seeking a soldier relative who was close to the family and available for photos at that time in 1917.
Sue
I don't know which was born first Sylvia Lily or Gweneth Lydia. Sylvia did survive to marry and have 2 children. I have baby photos of them and toddler photos prior to the 'Soldier Portrait' provided but they are copies with no information, so your deduction of their age is extraordinarily pretty spot on :). I agree that it seems to be an outdoor shot.
Can you tell from his uniform what rank he is? Uncle John James Baker (Lena's brother) was a Lieut and I agree that I can't find leave in Australia between 18/11/1915 and 15/05/1919 although he did have leave in England in Oct 1917 and went to Cadet School in London in 28/08/1918, I don't see that the family would have traveled to England to visit him but one never can assume?
I am scouring the apartment to find the original of this image to check the back again.
Thank you again
Kim
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Hi Sue,
That new feature that NSW BDM provided recently has come in handy ! Gweneth L FORDHAM date of birth is either 9th June 1915 or 10th June 1915. So, as today is 11th June 1915, the NSW BDM online index has only just in the past day, released the information (under the 100 years rule). (Add, Sue's post with the births for the Fordham couple was uploaded 8th June, so just a couple of days before the 100 years had expired before Gweneth's bc reference was listed)
Gweneth L, daughter of Arthur G and Lena A FORDHAM, registered Waratah District with ref no. #46255. (I have not found her twin ::) and I tried to find the births online on the 10th June (ie yesterday as I write this up) but not there, so perhaps Gweneth was born 10th June.
I also tried using "Waratah" as the district, and the dates to search 9 June 1915 to 10 June 1915, and the wild card for the surname. So, perhaps Gweneth was the elder of the twins, born on different days.
Cheers, JM
As another day into June has come on to the online search facility (11th June 1915) I have searched again for Sylvia on that online search facility and have had no success.
I have used just the registration number and again no result.
However, it is clearly an error and, overall, unimportant as you have from my other source the information, and it is without doubt, correct.
FORDHAM, Sylvia L.
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1915
Reg. 216254.
As to the shift of birthday celebration to place their conception inside the marriage, I think we would find it quite a common practice.
It seems likely to me the twins made this move themselves at some point in their lives rather than it being an earlier parental decision. A six months leap would be hard to explain in childhood development ::)
I am not at all familiar with military uniforms.
On Rootschat there is a board Military Forces. You could post the photo there and ask for help.
The Australian Board also has chatters who are knowledgeable in the field. That also would be worthwhile I think.
Sue
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Yes, there are well known flaws in the NSW BDM online index, sometimes with multiple births. The online index originates from the index prepared in the 1930s, and developed into the fische and CD and other resources, including most likely Sue's resource.
However, when NSW BDM was transferring over to its then 'new' EDP (Electronic Data Processing) system, that required 'everything' to be re-entered. So, if there were apparent duplications (for example duplicated information for registering multiple births) or if the cards became jammed..... some entries are simply not showing at the online index. If Sylvia's birth certificate was needed for some legal purpose, it would be possible to obtain it based on the obvious registration, and also on a full offline search by NSW BDM staff even without knowing Gweneth's registration no.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-the-registry.aspx
Cheers, JM
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Hi All
I just wanted to say thank you so much for all you have done and all of the knowledge and the tools you have given me.
I will find the Military chat as I am now so very curious to find out more about that dashing soldier.
It never ceases to amaze me how just a date and a place of birth can help reveal so much more about those we loved and those who loved them.
You are all awesome
Kind Regards
Kim
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Here is the Armed Forces board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/armed-forces/
And here is the Australian board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia/
Sue ;D ;D
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On the old NSW BDM CD's there is Sylvie L Fordham, #46254 registered 1915 at Waratah, NSW.
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On the old NSW BDM CD's there is Sylvie L Fordham, #46254 registered 1915 at Waratah, NSW.
Yes, that's right, very kind of you to check and confirm as Sue has already posted that info. :)
Hi Kim,
Births in NSW are only available online (including the Ancestry collection) to 1914.
However, because I have other resources, I am able to give you these three births to your couple up to 1918.
FORDHAM, Sylvia L.
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1915
Reg. 216254.
FORDAHM, Gweneth
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1915
Reg. 216255
FORDHAM, William J.
Father Arthur G.
Mother Lena A.
Waratah. 1918
Reg. 32176.
The couple are on the NSW Electoral Roll from 1930 in NSW.
I can type up these addresses etc if of interest to you.
Sue
PS. The photo is gorgeous!
He is wearing an Australian uniform
Cheers, JM