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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: gwalkden on Sunday 07 June 15 18:12 BST (UK)
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I am new to RootsChat. I belong to the British Home Child Group and so far have been successful in unravelling my family History. I have hit a roadblock with my Great-grandmother who gave up my Grandfather in 1906. I did find out that they lived in Hove at Wish Cottage. They had two sons, Nathan Thomas Alfred Denyer and Edward Charles Denyer and there may have been a daughter Victoria. My great-grandmother was Mary Jane Denyer and her husband was Alfred Jupp Denyer. According to the papers from Barnardos my great-grandmother remarried sometime in 1915 and became Mrs. Searle. From what I see she was married to Alfred in 1927. So confusing! Their son Nathan was k.i.a. in France August 21, 1918.
Can you find any truth in this re-marriage? I am going to England in October and I would be so excited to find out if I have family in Hove.
Thanks!
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Hi
So is this her first marriage?
Marriages Dec 1897
Buss James Petworth 2b 725
Denyer Alfred Jupp Petworth 2b 725 <<<<<
Smith Mary Jane Petworth 2b 725 <<<<<
Upperton Mary Elizabeth Petworth 2b 725
Death of Alfred?
Deaths Dec 1915
Denyer Alfred J 52 Petworth 2b 450
I can't see a marriage to a Searle - can anyone else please?
I'm just going to see if I can find Alfred on a census to check age.
giggsy
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I cant see any remarriage for Mary Jane Denyer either
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1901
31 Pale Road, Portslade
Alfred Denyer 28 milkman bn Hangleton
Mary Jane 28 bn Hurstpiuerpoint
Victoria Walden Denyer 4 bn Portslade
Martin Thomas Alfred Denyer 2 bn Portslade
Image shows child to be Martin. Must be enumerator error when writing up the schedule, as his birth reg is Nathan as is 1911.
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Thank you! Yes that "Martin" is definitely Nathan as he was born in 1899. Enumerator error! My grandfather was born Sept 7, 1894 to Mary Jane Smith (Denyer) and she sent him the Barnardo Homes December 21, 1906 and he left for Canada February 23, 1907. Odd that my grandfather Frederick William Smith did not appear on the 1901 census. ... and the plot thickens! I do have information that the Denyers resided at Wish Cottage Hove until around 1927. I believe Nathan was born in 1899 and Edward Charles in 1904 ... the funny thing is, my grandfather always maintained he was an only child ... and he named my father Edward Charles Smith ... weird isn't it. I only found out about 6 months ago that he had half brothers and sisters.
It was Barnardos that reported that Mary Jane remarried but then again, I do not believe much of what was written in those reports.
How can I find out if there are any living descendants of Victoria or Edward. Nathan died at age 19 in the First World War so I doubt there are any descendants for him.
Thank you so much for all your help!
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Thank you! Looks like another sibling for my grandfather .. Martin Denyer. My grandfather was born Sept 7, 1894
No, I think this child is actually Nathan Thomas Alfred.
So have I got this right, your grandfather Fredk Smith was born before the marriage to Denyer?
As he wasnt living with them in 1901 and was aent away in 1906, it looks as if Mr Denyer never accepted him, and Mary Jane made a new life with her new family.
Also, if you look at 1911 census (sorry look ups not alllwed) it will tell you how many of the Denyer children survived to adulthood. Those that didnt wont have descendents to find.
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Victoria seems to actually be Mary Victoria Walden Denyer.
Birth Jan/Feb/Mar 1897 Steyning Reg District
Christening 7th Feb 1897 at Hurstpierpoint.
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Yes Mary Jane was not married when she had my Grandfather. He was born in Petworth Workhouse in London. I agree that once Mary Jane had children with Alfred they did not want my Grandfather. A family member here says that my grandfather's father was a one-night stand and may have been black and apparently that was not acceptable in those times. There was a baby born around 1904 or 1905 that died in infancy and my grandfather was sent away shortly after. It is a very sad and strange story.
Am I able to see the 1911 census?
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Marriage
Oct/Nov/Dec 1955
Hove
Ref 5h 552
Mary V W Denyer to Alfred E Davis
Death
March 1979
Worthing
Ref 18 2850
Mary V W Davis
Age 82. Dob 12 Dec 1896
Looks like her!
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This is what I have found and the DENYER SMITH marriage doesn' t tally with the census.
Nathan was in the 3rd. Bn. King's Royal Rifle Corps abd died 21 August 1918
There is a marriage of Alfred Jupp DENYER to Mary Jane SMITH in 1887, but according to the 1911 census they had been married twenty years and only had two children born alive.
This is looks like the corrrect marriage for Nathan's parents.
Alfred DENYER (no middle name) to:-Mary Jane WALDER June quater 1895 vol 2B page 399, this looks more like the marriage of your great grandparents. This also fits with Victoria's name.
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But if the ancestor is Frederick Smith - surely that means thhe Alfred Jupp marriage to Mary Jane Smith is the right one? But that the half sib!ings of Nathan, Mary Victoria and Edward are wrong because they belong to the Alfred Denyer to Mary J walden marriage.
So Frederick didnt have those half siblings at all. And wasnt with them in 1901 because it wasnt his family at all!
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I had not seen the information about Frederick William SMITH when I posted, so if the Mary Jane SMITH marriage it the correct one Nathan, Edward and Victoria are a different family altogether.
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Forget the family we have been following! Forget Nathan and Victoria and co!
Here is your family in 1901
Little Hill, Pulborough Sussex
Walter Andrews 37 shepherd bn Petworth
MaryAnn Andrews 31 bn Fittleworth
Alfred 7
Alice 5
William 2
Mary J Denyer 27 married visitor bn Cold Waltham?
Frederick W Smith 7 visitor bn London
Frederick may well have been an only child, as he said.
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Alfred DENYER in 1901
RG13/0955/10/12
2 Robberts Cottages
Cold Waltham
Groom Stable Helper
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Y E S !!! Thank you! So I guess I will look at Davis in Brighton/Hove ! My Granfather passed away in November 1975. He took so many secrets to his grave!
Thank you again.
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Ok so I scrolled up and found the rest of your post :P Should have read before I replied! ha! ha! I do have a picture of my great-grandmother in front of Wish Cottage with a girl named Victoria so perhaps it was her niece? So confusing! I do know that Mary Jane Smith married Alfred Jupp Denyer in 1907 and there was the 1911 census that said she had 3 living children and assuming she did not include my Grandfather as he was in Canada by that time. So Nathan and Edward are not my great uncles then ... hmmmmm More questions than answers now!
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DAVIS Mary Victoria Walder of Sandena Nursing Home Cross La Findon West Sussex died 16 January 1979. Probate Brighton 20 March £5860.
Ref 790502964T
You could obtain a copy of the Wiil from
probatesearch.service.gov.uk/
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They married in 1897 not 1907
Name: Alfred Jupp Denyer
Mary Jane Smith District: Petworth Quarter: Oct-Dec.Volume: 2b. Page: 0725. County: Sussex... Year: 1897..
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So in the 1901 census Mary Jane and Frederick were visiting a household when the census-taker was there?
Yes marriage in 1897 would be right as my Grandfather was born in 1894 and she was single then. WHEW! Such a web to unravel!
Looking forward to my visit in October and hopefully find some family!
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If you have a photo of your great grandmother outside Wish Cottage, there must be a connection between the two families, you will have to go backwards to look for a link.
Here is the reference for Alfred's birth certificate.
Births Jun 1864
DENYER Alfred Jupp Chichester 2b 321
It is very late and I am off to bed now, so Good night.
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Thank you so much again for your help. It certainly is NOT an easy chore finding family is it! Everyone in my British Home Child group who has used RootsChat is very impressed with your work. Our President KAren Mahoney is a moderator. If I have any more questions, I will certainly ask! Thanks!
I will take the picture of my gr-grandmother with me to England. Maybe someone will know her.
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You are probably best continuing your research to establish some facts.
We are talking a long time ago, so I doubt anyone in Hove will know your grandmother. If anyone knew of the Denyer families, I doubt they would have known them well enough, nor the information been passed down the generations accurately enough, for them to distinguish between the two Alfred Denyers we have found.
Just to summarize.
Alfred Jupp Denyer married Mary Jane Smith 1897. She already had a child Frederick Smith before this marriage.
In 1901 she , with 7 yr old Frederick, is visiting the Andrews family, whilst her husband is in Cold Waltham, he is a groom/horse keeper. She is born Cold Waltham, son bn London.
By 1911, Frederick has been sent away. Alfred and Mary Jane in Horsham * see next post - no they aren't in Horsham!.
Meanwhile -
An Alfred Denyer married Mary Walder in 1895. They had children Mary Victoria Walder, Nathan Thomas Alfred and Edward Charles, and a couple of others that died.
In 1901 they are in Portslade
In 1911 at Wish Cottage.
Assuming there is a connection between the families, as you say Frederick had a photo of his mum Mary outside Wish Cottage with Victoria, it must presumably be via the Denyer link.
i.e the Alfred Jupp that Mary married must be linked to the Alfred that lived in Wish Cottage.
Are you sure the photo was of his Mum, and not of the Mary (nee Walder) who lived there?
Presmuably not brothers, both being Alfreds. So as someone has already said, you will need to delve deeper.
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No - my summary is still incorrect!
The Hosrsham Alfred Denyer is Not the same one as married Mary Jane Smith!
Because he is there is 1901, same address in Horsham as 10 years later, with wife, called just Jane on this occasion, and two children. That all ties up with 10 years later.
But we know "our" one is in Cold Waltham, and "our" Mary Jane with young Fredk is visiting the Andrews.
So still haven't located ours in 1911
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Wow .... and the plot thickens! When my Grandfather went overseas in the first World War he brought back a picture of his Mother that someone gave him. It hung in their dining room and I always thought she was the ugliest person I had ever seen! ha!ha! ... I emailed the Hove archives as that is where I had traced them to and they sent me a picture of an ugly woman in front of Wish Cottage who looked like the lady in the picture that my Grandparents had. She was holding a kitten and Victoria was there holding another kitten (she wasn't ugly!) ha! ha!
So yes, the timeline is correct so far until my Grandfather was sent to Barnardos in 1906. I went on to the War Graves site and found Nathan Thomas Alfred Denyer (N.T.A. Denyer) and it read "Son of Alfred and Mary Jane Denyer wish Cottage" so that is where I presumed he was my Grandfather's half brother.
Oh boy! Always more questions than answers isn't it! I was just hoping that a descendant or two maybe lived in Hove.
I re-read the Barnardo intake papers last night and according to them, his father was a George Greenfield but sounds like he didn't stick around so my gr-grandmother definitely was an unwed mother.
This one is a real challenge isn't it! Who am I ??? ha! ha!
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What you need is your grandfather's birth certificate, finding Frederick William SMITH is not particularly easy without a more precise birth place. You said he was born in Petworth workhouse London, where did you get the information because it is a contradiction of terms, they are different places, he was either born in Petworth workhouse which is in Sussex OR London as stated in the 1901 census.
There are at least five Frederick Williams born in the London area at the right time.
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I need to look at the Barnardo paper again. I know he was born in a workhouse according to Barnardos but I may have got Petworth in my brain. You see, he told everyone he was born in Petworth .. but Barnardos says he was born in London in a workhouse. I think it is Barnardo that is sending me down the wrong road! Yes, I know Smith is a hard one to track down. My maiden name was Smith (he is my paternal Grandfather) ... His attestation papers say he was born in Petworth but Barnardos contradict ... Just checked the Barnaro report ..e was born in St Pancras Workhouse London. The Petworth connection comes in as apparently they spent time in the Petworth Union.
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That is a help.
His mother remained apart from her husband, you need to look for a 29 year old Charles GALE in Chichester in 1911 to find her as his housekeeper.
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Here are possible births, you would need to obtain the certificates to find the correct one.
Births Mar 1892
Smith Frederick William Pancras 1b 50
Births Sep 1893
Smith Frederick William B Pancras 1b 156
Births Sep 1894
Smith Frederick William Pancras 1b 106
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Here is his birth and baptism in St. Pancras workhouse.
Sorry, I have posted the wrong clip, the right one to follow.
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Here is the correct clip, although his name is not shown in the clip it is indexed Frederick William SMITH
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Thanks! Maybe it will be clearer than mud now!
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The last of the three birth references I quoted will be the correct one, but you will be unlikely to learn any more from the certificate than is shown in the workhouse birth register.
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Thank you ! So now I am back at the drawing board. Here I thought my Grandfather had siblings. Strange that Nathan's obituary on the Gravesite site says Mary Jane Denyer and Alfred Denyer .. that is the confusing part. ???
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Thank you ! So now I am back at the drawing board. Here I thought my Grandfather had siblings. Strange that Nathan's obituary on the Gravesite site says Mary Jane Denyer and Alfred Denyer .. that is the confusing part. ???
Not really, because Nathans parents were also called Alfred and Mary Jane Denyer.
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Here is Frederick's first page of his Attestation Papers were he names Mary Jane Denyer as his next of kin. He notes her address as 21 Parchement Street, Chichester, Essex.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fg4/
Do you have his full military file?
Karen
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I have his attestation papers but that's all
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I figured maybe they moved to Sussex later on. Also it didn't look like he kept in touch with his mother so we figured it was her last know address ..
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You should get his full military file, there could be other information in them that could provide a clue. If he went on leave, or if he changed his next of kin's information etc.
Karen
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Is it in the Barnardo's records that they say she remarried around 1915 to a Mr. Searle?
Karen
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* just a comment......
just because someone is in a census doesnt mean they live there all the time...its only the night of the census............
censuses for Sussex for 1911 are not completely online! I have had trouble with 1911s before As much as some appear on FindMyPast, and anc NOT all Sussex is uploaded.
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I do have information that the Denyers resided at Wish Cottage Hove until around 1927.
That information is found in this caption
http://regencysociety-jamesgray.com/volume16/source/jg_16_061.html
Images 57 to 62 of that collection all mention Wish House: the people shown may be Denyers!
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Mary Jane Denyer has been our Achilles Heel for over 20 years when I started this! I have those pictures from the Regency Society and the (ugly) woman looks like the woman in the picture my Grandpa had but maybe the two Denyer families were connected in some way.
Yes ... The Barnardos report states that in 1916 she was Mrs. Searle... that is another mystery! So the Alfred Denyer and Mary Denyer at Wish Cottage are not my gr-grandmother and step-gr-grandfather ... Glad I didn't get to England, go to Hove and force myself on the Denyer descendants! ha! ha!
So I guess it's a matter now of finding the 1911 census and finding out where Ms. Denyer was at the time. I do know that she was born around 1874 and Married Alfred in 1898 when my grandfather was 4.
If it's any help, Chichester seems to keep popping up.
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Reply #26 answers that one!
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Yes! I had a blonde moment there trying to take everything in! :P
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Since there is no sign of any such marriage, I think the supposed marriage to a Mr Searle is a red herring. Given that Mary appears to be living apart from Alfred in 1901 and 1911, it is quite possible she cohabited with Charles GALE and GALE was misheard as SEARLE.
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AHA! That very well could be the case.
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Maybe we should follow Mr. gale and see where he was etc. Would be nice to find out who was living at that address c1915 when Frederick noted it on his papers.
Karen
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Good idea!
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I do have information that the Denyers resided at Wish Cottage Hove until around 1927.
That information is found in this caption
http://regencysociety-jamesgray.com/volume16/source/jg_16_061.html
Images 57 to 62 of that collection all mention Wish House: the people shown may be Denyers!
gwalkden, these are the same photos you thought were your family members.
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Yes these are the people. (she was ugly wasn't she!) However, she looks a lot like the person in the picture my Grandfather had. We always laughed and thought she looked like a man. That's why I thought that that lady was my gr-grandmother. Maybe it is her and she was visiting? That's where it's confusing.
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Where is that picture now, do you know?
K
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My aunt in Toronto has the picture
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Alfred DENYER (no middle name) to:-Mary Jane WALDER June quater 1895 vol 2B page 399, this looks more like the marriage of your great grandparents. This also fits with Victoria's name.
FindMyPast has transcription of this marriage. It took place on 25 Apr 1895 at Hurstpierpoint. Alfred's father was called Nathan. Alfred Denyer was 22 at marriage, so born approx 1875.
The 1881 census has the family at Hangleton. Nathan and wife Jane with several children. Nathan was born in Wisborough green, Sussex approx 1837.
The other Alfred (Alfred Jupp Denyer) was born in Sutton, Sussex approx 1864. In 1871, he's a pupil at the workhouse in the parish of Wisborough Green.
Familysearch has his baptism on 24 April 1864 at Sutton. mother Fanny Denyer, no father mentioned, but from his name, it might possibly be a Mr Jupp. The record says residence was West Thorney, Sussex.
There are a number of Fanny / Frances Denyers who are possibilities for the mother on various censuses, but none connects to Nathan.
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I now have Nathan Denyer's baptism on Ancestry. 23 Oct 1836 at Wisborough Green, parents William and Elizabeth. No sign of this couple having a daughter Fanny.
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I don't think the first one mentioned is my gr-grandparents. I wish it was because then I would be able to put a family in there. It is more likely that my gr-grandmother married Alfred Jupp Denyer as Alfred Jupp Denyer is what is named in the Barnardo paper. Also my gr-grandmother was Mary Jane Smith. I HOPE it was Mary Jane Smith or we have been living with a false name! So it looks like the first Denyers, Alfred (no middle name) and Mary Jane Walder were the residents of Wish Cottage and not my gr-grandparents. I'm glad I found this out or I would have been going to England in October and forcing myself onto a family that isn't mine!
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I agree, it looks as if the Denyers of Wish Cottage are not related to your family.
It looks as if finding any antecedents of Alfred Jupp Denyer might be difficult as we only know his mother was Fanny. I don't know whether his birth cert would give any more useful information. Quarter 2 1864 Chichester district vol 2b page 321
Also have not found Mary Jane Smith born Coldwaltham on a census prior to 1901 (by which time she was Mary Jane Denyer).
Freebmd has two births in Thakeham reg district (which covered Coldwaltham at the time) around the right year
Q2 1876 Mary Jane M Smith vol 2b page 319
Q3 1876 Mary Jane Smith vol 2b page 317
Added.
Just realised Alfred Jupp Denyer is unlikely to be your ancestor's father anyway as the marriage was some time after Frederick's birth and Frederick was born in London.
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That's right. Alfred Jupp Denyer would have been my grandfather's step-father. Barnardos lists the father as George Greenfield and it sounded like a one-night-stand.
Well at least Nathan was recognized at the Tower of London. His name was read on September 22nd as part of the honour roll. At that time I thought he was my great-uncle.
When my grandfather was born (St. Pancras Workhouse London Sept 7, 1894) it lists his mother as being 20 years old so 1896 maybe isn't far wrong.
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Just to clarify what we know so far and my own conclusions.
We know that Alfred Jupp DENYER was born in 1864 the illegitimate son of Fanny DENYER.
Mary Jane SMITH was born c1874/76 reputedly in Coldwaltham, parentage unknown.
Alfred Jupp DENYER married Mary Jane SMITH in 1897
In 1901 Alfred is apart from Mary Jane and working as a groom, he declares himself to be married
Also in 1901 Mary Jane is visiting an ANDREWS family with son Frederick, she also states she is married.
By 1911 Mary Jane is housekeeper to Charles GALE, still stating she is married, however,
Alfred is gardener to a Clement CLARK, but now says he is single. This would indicate the marriage was very short lived.
This looks like a possible death for Alfred
Deaths Dec 1915
Denyer Alfred J 52 Petworth 2b 450
The other Alfred DENYERs that have been considered
1. Alfred born c1862 in Horsham, he married Jane BRIDGEWATER in 1891, they only had two daughters Rose and Mary J. although Jane has acquired the name Mary Jane by 1911, this couple can be discounted.
2. Alfred born Hangleton c1872, married Mary Jane WALDER in 1897, they had five children including Mary Victoria, Nathan and Edward, plus two other children born before 1911 who did not survive until then. This is the couple who lived in Wish Cottage so can also be discounted.
There is no sign of the supposed marriage of Mary Jane to a ? SEARLE in 1915, although she would have been free to do so because of the above mentoned death.
As there do not appear to have been any children from Mary Jane's marriage to Alfred, there is little point in looking any further into the DENYER families. Concentration should be on the very difficult task of locating the birth of Mary Jane SMITH, that is the bloodline of Frederick.
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That's it in a nutshell! ;D
Mary Jane has been our stumbling block for over 20 years and now it looks like she continues to elude us!
Thank you so much for all your help, although it seems that my family shrunk somewhat!
I am very interested in following Mary Jane's branch and hopefully she will give up her secrets once and for all!
I'm wondering if she was maybe shacked up with Mr Gale and the Barnardos misread her letter and thought it was Searle. Maybe she married this Mr. Gale. Who knows!
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The marriage certificate for Mary Jane Smith and Alfred Jupp Denyer should hopefully reveal the name of her father, unless she was illegitimate as well.
Mary Jane was suposedly born in Coldwaltham, so why was Frederick born in London? Possibly Mary Jane went to London for work, had a relationship with Frederick's father (possibly a married man?) and returned later (1901 census data) to Sussex. Are the people she is visiting in 1901 actually family? I have seen plenty of times a person named as a visitor or lodger when they are actually related to the head of household. Why did Mary Jane wait unti 1906 to give up Frederick? Had she fallen on harder times? Was this when she moved in with Mr Gale and he didn't want the boy with them?
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She was quite the lady (woman) for sure! According to my Barnardo papers she had been in and out of workhouses and relatives homes. The year before she sent my Grandfather away she had a baby that died. So I'm back to thinking that she really was a woman of bad moral habits. Barnardos also said that my Grandfather was blind in one eye due to neglect.
When I thought that the other Denyers were my relatives, I figured Barnardos paper was a made up story but now I think there is a lot of truth in it. She really was a single Mother who was probably prostituting herself to make money. Barnardos also said they wandered around the country and often slept in barns. How sad when my Grandfather was sent to the farm in Port Hope he slept in the barn there too. Pretty much a lateral move for him.
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Maybe we should follow Mr. gale and see where he was etc. Would be nice to find out who was living at that address c1915 when Frederick noted it on his papers.
A map of 1912 shows Parchment Street had 13 houses - all on south side (as a block of 7 and a block of 6, separated by Washington road and what appear to be glasshouses. But it does look as if there is a larger house about half way along on the opposite side of the road with a large landscaped park or garden. The 1932 map shows little change. A 1963 map numbers the properties in Parchment street and the larger house (or its successor) is numbered 21. By this time the park / garden has been replaced by houses, so number 21 makes sense.
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/485697/105437/13/101329
So an address of 21 Parchment street in 1915 doesn't seem to exist.
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I don't really think my Grandfather knew exact addresses. He was 12 when he was sent away. I do remember my Grandmother telling me that when he went to England in WWI on his way to the front, he went to his Mother's home and his "sister" threw him the picture and told him to never come back. That is the picture that hung in their den.