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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hertfordshire Lookup Requests => Hertfordshire => England => Herts Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: kylaanne83 on Saturday 06 June 15 22:05 BST (UK)
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Hello! I pray this message finds you all well. I also appreciate that you are volunteering your services, and that I've finally found a place that may be able to help me climb my brick wall. :D
I'll start with my 3x great grandfather, John Nutkins (b. 24 May 1850 in Tring, d. 15 Jul 1926 in London, Middlesex, Ontario, Canada). He lived in Tring until about 1865 when he went to London, where he met his future wife & her family, Elizabeth Margaret Bayley (b. 06 Apr 1854 in Greenwich, London, England, d. 11 Mar 1928 in London, Middlesex, Ontario, Canada). John Nutkins came to Canada around 1870/71 with the Bayley family. John & Elizabeth had 13 children, 2 of whom died in infancy or birth.
The History of Middlesex, Ontario, Canada publication states that John's parents are a John and Hannah Nutkins (b. 1826, d. 1856) of Tring. I was able to find the 1851 census listing John as the 10 mo old grandson of James Nutkins (b. 1781, d. 1855) and son of Hannah Nutkins, the daughter of James. So here I question who his father John was, why was he not married to Hannah, what was his last name?
From here I was able to find that James married an Ann May (possibly Mew/Mow - as the 1841 Census has Hannah living with the Mew family, so I think she could possibly just have been with relatives at the time of the census). Unfortunately on the ancestry site I was about to find only one marriage record for a James Nutkins and Ann May dated for 30 Dec 1790; which couldn't possibly be the same people could it? I have been able to uncover siblings for Hannah Nutkins through others on ancestry as well as by the 1841/1851 census records; Ann Nutkins b. 1823 d. Jan 1852 married William Seabrook b. 1818 d. 1869; Betsy Nutkins b. 1826??; Elizabeth Nutkins b. 1821 who possibly married William Young; John Nutkins b. 1827 who married Sarah Seabrook b. 1824; and James Nutkins b. 1828 d. Oct 1900 who married Sarah Twitcher b. 1830 and beget Charles Nutkins b. 1849 who possibly married Mary Ann Clark b. 1850, Job Nutkins b.1853 and George Nutkins b. 1862. I am concerned though that Ann is the only sibling that shows up on any census records that I've found. So I may have all the siblings wrong as well. Sigh. :-\ ???
I'm struggling with the age of James and Ann Nutkins at the time their children were born, so I wonder if I have the correct people? However the 1841 and 1851 censuses do seem to be correct. I would think that most of the Nutkins families in Tring would be connected... I just don't know HOW yet. That's where I really need help with this branch. I'm so eager to find who my 4x and possible 5x great grandparents are, as well as their families (parents, siblings, aunts, and uncles, etc.) I really need some help with filling in the pieces or if you're not able to help in that way, possibly you could lead me to someone who can help me with this. I'm willing to learn about any errors I've created as well. I want to find the correct information, not just any information.
How is it possible to look at, or what do I do when, birth/death/marriage certificates all come up with a volume number and page number? Is it possible to see the actual record online (I'm subscribed to ancestry.com and findmypast.uk) or do I have to order the actual record and pay for them all (I imagine that gets quite costly)?
I so greatly appreciate you taking the time to read my information and questions and thank you in advance for your help. I really pray that we can work on this together and find some answers and new branches to my family tree. :)
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Hi kylaanne83
I can't answer all your questions but having looked at the 1841, 1851 and 1861 census, I would suggest that John was the illegitimate child of Hannah Nutkins.
There is an entry in the birth index in 1850 for John Nutkins and the registration district is Berkhampstead (correct for Tring) but unfortunately the systems here don't allow you to see the details of certificates unless you pay £9.35 to the General Regsiter Office.
The Hertfordshire baptisms including Tring are online at FindMyPast not Ancestry so you would need another subscription to search them and see the details but I can't easily see a baptism for John as a Nutkins or other surname.
FindMyPast often have trial offers for £1 for one month so you could look at the Tring records there.
However, I also cant find a baptism or burial in 1856 at Tring for his mother Hannah or a burial at Tring for his grandfather James so they not have been of an Anglican persuasion so may not appear in the parish records even for the whole of Hertfordshire.
The cemetery at Tring didn't open until 1894 which is too late for your research.
If John Nutkins was illegitimate he may have invented a father for proprieties sake to cover up this fact or his father could have been called John but you may never no for certain what the father's surname was.
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This may be a more likely Marriage;
12 February 1803, Tring, Hertford, England
James NUTKINS to Ann COCK
(Source Familysearch.Org)
I can find 2 Christenings;
JAMES Nudkins, 1 Sept 1805 Tring to JAMES/ANN
LYDIA Nudkins, 4 December 1806 Tring to JAMES/ANN
I agree with dawnsh that John is the illeg Son of Hannah.
Also in 1841 Census Hannah may just be working away from Home and not related the the Family she is with at all.
This appears to be James 1805 in 1841 Census;
Job Nutkins, 35
Ann Nutkins, 45
William Nutkins, 15
John Nutkins, 14
James Nutkins, 11
Although I cant find a Marriage LYDIA 1806 seems to appear on Census with Husband George under BARBER
Trish :)
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Oh My Word Ladies THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!! You've definitely given me some other things to think about. The Nutkins family has many mysteries I'm finding... before AND after John! I can't tell you how much this means to me, thank you from the bottom of my heart. Many blessings to you both!!
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But Job/Ann and James/Ann are 2 different couples?? Job Nutkins married Ann Hains 13/10/1823 Tring - in 1851 they have been transcribed on Ancestry as Nuthins.
The James who married Sarah Twitcher and John who married Sarah Seabrook appear to be the children of Job/Ann not James/Ann.
James and Lydia appear to have James b.1805, Lydia b.1806 then there is a gap but next known child is Charles bc.1819, Ann bc.1822-3, Betsey bc.1824-26, Hannah bc.1826 (the Elizabeth on 1841 census is, I believe, the wife of Charles who married 1839 together with their daughter Fanny). Seems pretty likely that other children were born between 1807-1818 but with the absence of baptisms in Tring would appear the children after the first two must have been baptised in a non-conformist church whose records are not online. They certainly didn't take place in Tring parish church.
Annette
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Annette THANK YOU SO MUCH for the clarification! That's exactly what I'm trying to find. I'm sure that Job and James must be related in some way though, possibly brothers or other relatives? I greatly appreciate your help!! :D
Another question... while it's easy to see the "Index Record", how are we to use that to find the actual birth/death/marriage record containing the actual detailed information on it? I'm getting frustrated with just seeing a volume and page number but nothing else. LOL Thanks again for your help! :D
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kylaanne83
As dawnsh explained in her reply, the Birth/Marriage/Death records shown in the GRO Indexes each have a volume and page number. You cannot view these certificates.
The only way is to purchase a copy of whichever certificate you want is to order it from the GRO direct (don't order via Ancestry as they charge more) at:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates
You have to quote when you order all that you have found in whichever index you are looking at i.e. Christian name/s, surname, the relevant quarter i.e. March, June, September or December, year, Volume Number, Page Number. Cost of a certificate is £9.25.
As the titles suggest, the listings are an index only of all registrations held by the GRO (General Register Office).
The only way to find out what is on a certificate is by purchasing it unless you are lucky and the relevant entry appears in online parish records.
Advertising by the major genealogy sites suggest you can find out all you need by subscribing to their sites. However, whilst more and more parish records are slowly being added, their holdings are far from complete and when it comes to the BMD Indexes it is simply that, an index to the GRO indexes and you cannot view certificates in the latter on any site (unless, in the case of marriages, they have been included in an online parish record). Baptisms in parish records are simply that (not a copy of the birth certificate) and burials likewise (just a record of the burial not what they died from and any other info. that's on the death certificate).
Hope that makes things clearer.
Annette
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Annette you are an angel!! Thank you for explaining that for me. You're right, they do advertise that you can see those records but its only the index that you get to see unfortunately. I can see this will get costly ordering several of them, so I'd better choose wisely LOL. Also, I greatly appreciate you giving me the other link for ordering them. Many blessings to you. :D
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I am also researching the Nutkin family for a family member. Victoria Beatrice Nutkin April 4 1879 to June 1989 in London Ont. Have some info and the history sounds complicated but a grandchild was told of roots in France during revolution and being aristocrats and fleeing France with their heads. Do you have any info on French connection before Nutkine .
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Welcome to Rootchat Windsorbrat.
Your date of birth is incorrect
Victoria Beatrice NUTKINS
Birth 4 Jun 1897, Middlesex, Ontario, Canada
Parents John NUTKINS and Elizabeth Margaret BAYLEY
1901 Canada Census
John Nutkins 50
Elizabeth Nutkins 46
Hannah Nutkins 22
John Nutkins 18
Earnest Nutkins 15
S Albert Nutkins 10
Margarette Nutkins 8
Victoria Nutkins 3*****
Gertrute Nutkins 1
1871 Census John Nutkins is living in the Bayley Household in London, Ontario
1881 Census John/Elizabeth are married with 4 children.
If you look through the info provided earlier John was the illeg Son of HANNAH Nutkins
GRO now has Mothers maiden names listed by Johns doesnt have one so illegitimate;
NUTKINS, JOHN - no Mothers maiden name***
GRO Reference: 1850 S Quarter in BERKHAMSTEAD Volume 06 Page 481
Trish :)
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I would not take the French connection seriously as the name Nutkin/Nutkins/Nuttkin/Nudkin etc goes back a long way in Hertfordshire.
The Revolution was from 5 May 1789 – 9 Nov 1799
From Census Johns Grandfather was born 1785 Tring, Herts so before this date.
He was a Agricultural Labourer so far from Aristocracy.
Death Reg for Johns Mother;
NUTKINS, HANNAH age 32*****
GRO Reference: 1856 D Quarter in BERKHAMSTEAD Volume 03A Page 191
1861 Census John is under BUTKINS age 10, Nephew of William/Elizabeth YOUNG
Elizabeth was nee NUTKINS and Hannahs Sister and and another Daughter of JAMES/ANN Nutkins
1841 Census
Tring, Herts
James Nutkins 60
Ann Nutkins 55
Betsy Nutkins 15****
Elizabeth Nutkins
Fanny Nutkins 1
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Thank you for info, but wondering what GRO means. The person I am looking into tree gave me the date of Victoria's s b d so I think will keep date as it is what another's research said, just 1 month difference and I am related to her!
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I have charles JOHN Nutkin and Hanna Mow, then back up to James Nutkin & Mary Ann Mow and children. Who is John Nutkin's father.? Was it James Nutkin and wife Mary_______? I am working on a Tablot at a cabin without benefit of Pac and printer. Typo on my part about year, I have 1897.
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GRO is General Register Office
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
There is not just 1 mths difference in Victorias dob, you have;
Victoria Beatrice Nutkin April 4 1879**
Its 1897!
The reason people have Hannah as Hannah Mow is she is with a Mow Family in 1841 Census;
1841 Census
Tring
John Mow 40 Shoemaker
Hannah Mow 15
Thomas Mow 14
John Mow 10
Hannah Nutkins 14****
She is likely just a Servant in the household
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I have to sign out now as its late here in Australia, good night.
Trish :)
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trish1120 - Victoria Beatrice Nutkins was indeed born 4th April 1897 London, Ontario - ancestry have transcribed it as 4th June but if you look at the original birth certificate it has April as the birth month, not June!
Windsorbrat - if your lady is the one who married a Russell Grayson Parker 21/2/1920 Middlesex, Ontario then the above is definitely her. Her death is shown as 1987 Union, Elgin County, Ontario.
Annette
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This is the lady that I am researching and I find family stories interesting and maybe not true. This one might be a challenge to find fluidity and to find a connection to French Revolution. Dates not making sense.
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Just for clarification - John Nutkins b.1850 Tring was the illegitimate son of Hannah Nutkins.
Hannah Nutkins was bc.1826 Tring, dau. of James Nutkins and Ann Cock/Cork (married 2/1/1803 Tring).
James Nutkins b.25/5/1781, not baptised until 7/12/1797 St.Leonards, Tring, son of James and Mary.
There are one or two trees on Ancestry with wrong information.
Annette
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Thank you for info, not easy to do a tree you did not grow up with. Will look at PC for more info on parents of James Nutkin who had James 1781
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Thanks for that clarification Annette and for the summation of all the info while I was off line.
Good luck with all your Family Tree Windsorbrat.
Trish :)
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I am going to WRITE up Nutkin tree but needed to check one last time if anyone knows of a French connection in family as the story handed down said a connection to French Revolution. My last info is a James Nutkin 1760 married to Mary J James. French Revolution was 1789 to 1799 and the dates of family are Still in Tring, Hertfordshire England. I hate to pop family story bubbles!
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I think you will have to burst that bubble :)
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All the people you mentioned are related to my husband William Nutkins. He is the son of Ronald Kingsley. Grandson of Ernest. Great grandson of John and Elizabeth.
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Hello. I believe we have the same 3x great grand parents John and Elizabeth Nutkins. My Grandmother's mother was Elizabeth Mabel Nutkins of London Ontario Canada. My grandmother was born there and married Arthur Poe.
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I have discovered my own links to Tring and surrounds through the SEABROOK family.
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Hi,
Just found this old post and wondered whether anyone is still following it?
My 4g grandparents were Lydia Nutkins 1765 Gt Berkhamsted and Joseph Grove who married at Berkhamsted in 1784. Berko is about 10 miles from where I was born (and still live) and Tring is about 5 miles beyond that.
Lydia's parents were John Nutkins 1732 Ivinghoe and Mary Intes. I have a DNA match with a descendant of John's sister Rebecca, which confirms my research back to then.
I must confess I have not read through the whole of this thread, but I too am having problems with James and Ann Cook or May. I have a DNA match with a gentleman who is descended from Charles Nutkins 1818, but he has Charles as the son of James 1768 and Ann Cook. It seem likely to me that this was in fact James 25 May 1781 Tring, son of James and Mary (maiden name unknown)
Must confess to being more than a little bemused after chasing this on and off for several years :)
Does anybody on here have a DNA test online anywhere?
Regards
Phil How
Croxley Green, Herts
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Hi Phil.
I am not related but as you can see was involved in this Nutkin thread years ago.
I agree with you re the Parents of Charles;
1851 Charles/Elizabeth have a Daug Fanny age 11
Bapt;
10 Jan 1841, St Peter and St Paul, Tring, Hertfordshire
FANNY Nutkins, Parents CHARLES/ELIZABETH
Father a Labourer
Abode Tring
1841 Fanny appears to be with her Grandparents in Tring;
James Nutkins 60 Ag Lab
Ann Nutkins 55
Betsy Nutkins 15
Elizabeth Nutkins 20
Fanny Nutkins 1
Only James/Betsy are born in Hertfordshire.
So looks like Charles is away and Elizabeth and Fanny are with his Parents
Trish :)