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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: BevStimpson on Wednesday 27 May 15 22:57 BST (UK)
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Richard Matthew Jackson born 1839 Southwark, London, married Isabella Parsons born 07 Jun 1835 in Tower Hamlets, Middlesex 25 Dec 1858 St Mary, Newington.
They had (that I can find, or that survived childhood) Richard Henry Jackson 1859 – 1912, Elizabeth Jackson 1866 – ?, William Jackson 1868 – 1915, Amos Jackson 1870 – 1945, Alfred Jackson 1875 – 1935 (my great grandfather) - the youngest two born in Manchester.
In 1881, the census lists the 2 older children living with their grandparents Richard and Elizabeth Jackson at 19 Bk Preston Street, Manchester Isabella and her son William aged 14 were pauper inmates at Crumpsall Workhouse, and Amos and Alfred were pauper inmates at Swinton Industrial school. All the family were in the tobacco pipe making business. I am presuming Richard Matthew had died. although his death is a mystery I haven't been able to solve. Any ideas as to his death would be greatly appreciated.
The second mystery is Isabella's death. I have her in 1891 at 44 Sycamore Street, New Cross, Manchester, as head of household, age 52 yrs and living with her two youngest sons.
I decided to try a broad range burial search on Manchester's council website and found (unfortunately) a few possibilities, I narrowed it down by area and cross referencing with freebmd
to Jun 1892 age 53 and corresponding burial 28/06/1892 Isabella Jackson Manchester General Cemetery (close enough to where she lived, although i would have thought Phillips Park was nearer) - do you think my logic stands up?
I can't find Richard Matthew on any census after 1871, and a search of the cemeteries is not helping. He is named on Alfred's birth certificate, so he was still alive in July 1875.
a search for deaths brings up
Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Sep 1875 JACKSON Richard 70 Manchester 8d 188
Deaths Jun 1877 JACKSON Richard 58 Manchester 8d 138
Deaths Jun 1883 Jackson Richard Arthur 0 Manchester 8d 118
Deaths Sep 1883 JACKSON Richard 40 Manchester 8d 52
Deaths Dec 1885 Jackson Richard 1 Manchester 8d 151
Deaths Sep 1888 JACKSON Richard Henry 1 Manchester 8d 147
Deaths Mar 1891 Jackson Richard Henry 0 Manchester 8d 187
Deaths Dec 1893 Jackson Richard 74 Manchester 8d 157
ruling out infant deaths it seems like the only possibility is
Sep 1883 JACKSON Richard 40 Manchester - but then why can't I find him on a census? and why did his family end up in the workhouse?
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Sep 1883 JACKSON Richard 40 Manchester - but then why can't I find him on a census? and why did his family end up in the workhouse?
Could he be in another workhouse listed with just initials?
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www.lancashirebmd.org.uk shows Richard's death in the Central sub registration district
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/manchester.html
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You have missed one death that is a possible.
Jackson Richard 33 Manchester 8d 191 Deaths Jun 1871
Deducting the age from the year of death it matches with Richard Matthew Jackson. His death is probably the reason for them ending up in the Workhouse, you can obtain the workhouse records which would tell you why.
regards
CereUK
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If that's him, it throws the cat amongst the pigeons as " Alfred Jackson 1875" is Bev's great grandfather and that would mean that Richard wasn't his father.
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If that's him, it throws the cat amongst the pigeons as " Alfred Jackson 1875" is Bev's great grandfather and that would mean that Richard wasn't his father.
Thanks everyone, he is on the 1871 census, and I did consider illegitimacy, but he is on Alfred's birth certificate 😳 also, I can't find record of Isabella searching the workhouse records other than on the 1881 census.
You have missed one death that is a possible.
Jackson Richard 33 Manchester 8d 191 Deaths Jun 1871
Deducting the age from the year of death it matches with Richard Matthew Jackson. His death is probably the reason for them ending up in the Workhouse, you can obtain the workhouse records which would tell you why.
Also, no records in the workhouse search for any of the children between 1871 and 1881, they two oldest obviously went to live with grandparents because they had work, the younger ones went with Isabella.
I'm now wondering why I can't find her on the workhouse records.
With regards to illegitimacy, two of his older brothers descendants have both told me that photos of their great grandfathers and my photo of Alfred could be identical twins, so they must bear a likeness to the same or both parents 😀
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Alfred's birth certificate shows Richard Jackson as father, and I have just asked for help transcribing the age on Richard and Isabellas wedding certificate. I believe it says Isabella is "full" age, Richard looks like "minor" - if I am correct, it would alter the age at death on the search!
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I believe it says Isabella is "full" age, Richard looks like "minor" - if I am correct, it would alter the age at death on the search!
I've looked at the certificate and it does say minor.
Richard Matthew Jackson born 1839 Southwark, London, married Isabella Parsons born 07 Jun 1835 in Tower Hamlets, Middlesex 25 Dec 1858 St Mary, Newington.
Why? If they married in 1858 he would have been born after 1837, and you have him born 1839, so he was 19 when he married. Remember people were counted as minors for marriage then until 21, not 18 as now.
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'Thanks everyone, he is on the 1871 census, and I did consider illegitimacy, but he is on Alfred's birth certificate 😳 also, I can't find record of Isabella searching the workhouse records other than on the 1881 census.
You have missed one death that is a possible.
Jackson Richard 33 Manchester 8d 191 Deaths Jun 1871
Deducting the age from the year of death it matches with Richard Matthew Jackson. His death is probably the reason for them ending up in the Workhouse, you can obtain the workhouse records which would tell you why'.
The 1871 census was taken on 2 April. The June quarter registration 1871 found means death was likely to have occurred in April, May or June so quite possible that he was alive on 2 April 1871 to be recorded on the census but died after that in either April, May or June.
Sorry haven't got the quote function working quite right!
Pheno
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The 1871 census was taken on 2 April. The June quarter registration 1871 found means death was likely to have occurred in April, May or June so quite possible that he was alive on 2 April 1871 to be recorded on the census but died after that in either April, May or June.
Pheno
That doesn't fit though with the birth of Bev's great grandfather in 1875, unless she lied on the birth certificate.
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It is a mystery, I've searched bmd for deaths, and manchester council for burials that link, family search, FindMyPast for the workhouse records ( manchester gave them the rights I believe) I've searched all Lancashire, and searches on the individual areas within, and surrounding areas, other than he upped and left, he obviously died, but before or after Alfred's birth, I can't work out :o :P
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The problem is that if a woman was married it was assumed her husband was the father of a child. So unless she actually said that she was a widow, that is the name that would go on the certificate. Probably better than the child being classed as illegitimate.
The only thing you can do is get the death certificate from the 1883 death and hope that Isabella registered it.
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From a newspaper report I see that Richard's father (Richard) died of natural causes after discharging himself from the workhouse in December 1893. There is a full report on the inquest.
Do you have a subscription to newspaper archives? If not I can let you know what the report says.
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From a newspaper report I see that Richard's father (Richard) died of natural causes after discharging himself from the workhouse in December 1893. There is a full report on the inquest.
Do you have a subscription to newspaper archives? If not I can let you know what the report says.
I have the tried the searches on FindMyPast newspapers etc, and thought I had Richard (Richd) in 1879 in the Withington Manchester workhouse, from the transcription, but after looking at the image itself the age is given (why it isnt on the transcription I don't know) and he is only 9 yrs!
The newspaper search doesn't give anything.
The other thin I have found (not sure if is it mine at the moment, is 1871 workhouse Richard jackson aged 49 years. Now the older Richard was with his wife and grandchildren in 1881...the younger with his wife and childre n in 1871... so I'm not sure this one is...at the moment
I have tried the newspaper archives - I don't have a subscription - but the searches don't seem to bring up anything (perhaps I'm not using the right search terms) just two for 1893 and one was a boy, the other a lady.
If you could let me know what the report says please, I would be grateful
Bev xx
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Sorry for the delay, been away for a couple of days. I am sure this must be related to your family.
16 December 1893 Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser.
PATHETIC CASE.- n inquest was held by Mr S Smelt, Deputy Coroner, on Monday morning, on the body of Richard Jackson, aged 74 years, late of Poplar Street, Oldham Road. Jackson was a pipe maker by trade, and was admitted to the Crumpsall Workhouse Hospital suffering from bronchitis and a form of consumption. As he improved it was suggested by the medical officer that he should go into the infirm ward, there being great pressure on accommodation in the hospital. Jackson would not go into the ward, and after staying in the hospital until the second inst., took his discharge. The same evening he was found by a policeman leaning against a windowsill on Hendham Vale, near Queen's Park. He had to be taken home on a litter, and died on Saturday. It was stated by his widow who is 72 years of age, that she remonstrated with him about having left the workhouse, but he said he had come home to die.. All they had to live on since he returned home was tea and bread and butter supplied by the neighbours. Before her husband left her to go into the workhouse she had 2s and 6d a week from the parish, out of which she had to pay the rent of the room they occupied. This allowance was stopped when the deceased went into the workhouse. She was advised to accompany him, the relieving-officer being of opinion that the room she occupied was not fit for habitation, but she did not like the idea of going into the workhouse. The verdict of the jury was that the death was due to natural causes, and it was remarked by the coroner that it was only natural the widow should object to going into the workhouse, where she would have been separated from her husband. In the case of old people like this couple, he thought the guardians might strain a point by allowing them to remain together if both became inmates.
Such a terribly sad report.
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Sorry for the delay, been away for a couple of days. I am sure this must be related to your family.
Thank you so much, not to worry, hope you had a nice break.
Yes Richard is my Gt Gt Gt Granddad. He had his wife Elizabeth had been together for 55 years (ish) no wonder he wanted to be with her at the end...
Such a terribly sad report.
Incredibly sad. and to add to that, I found the location of his grave, in the municiple cemetery. The council in a effort to save money have flattened all the stones from the pauper graves, or in this section have completely removed them - the only row of stones left are private graves. It was so sad walking over the stones trying to find the grave number, clearing away mud, grass leaves etc... I actually cried for all those poor people. In the middle of the section, one only little marker, to memorialise a cab driver who died in the workhouse, probably put there by a descendant who has only recently like myself discovered him... it reads "buried somewhere in this area"...
why can't the council let these poor people have some respect in death!
Thank you for your kind help...everyone who has responded. I still haven't found the death of his son, but have discovered he was born before his parents were married, and given his mothers maiden name!
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Like you, I too find it very upsetting when I hear of these things. It makes you wonder what will happen to us in the future!
I also think the 1871 death is definitely a strong possibility. I have had a look on FindMyPast at the Admission Records for Manchester but couldn't find any records for your family. I will keep looking.
Good luck!