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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: cazza59 on Sunday 24 May 15 00:44 BST (UK)
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I really hope we can find this one as it looks quite adorable.
There are two images this time and hopefully once again, enough for you super detectives to work with. Any new architectural terms that people spot, could you please share, as I would like to add them to the photos description, plus it's educational!!
Caz
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Second view.
These are very tiny photos, about the size of a couple of postage stamps.
Anybody recognise the chaps standing outside? :P :P :P ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
Caz
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Is that a Knights Templar symbol over the door?
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Two different doorways. The top photo has steps up to the door but not the second one. Sides of the path slope up on second one though. So maybe located on a slight hill? However I have seen church graveyards which slope up like this even of the church is not located on a hill. But looking behind the church in photo 1 it is difficult to judge if we see only trees in the background, or a hill ... Or a bit of both. :-\
The tower is obviously on th other side of the church as tthe top is just peeping over the roof in photo1.
Flint chirch.
Don't know about the symbol but hope someone will be able to recognize it from that.
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I would guess that the porches are a later addition. :-\
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The tower peeping over the top has lucarnes. I'm not really that clever, Pat enlightened us on this particular architectural term in WAI 29 :P :P ;D ;D
To quote Pat:
"A lucarne is a "small gabled opening in a roof or a spire"
Hope this helps with the search ;)
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The tower peeping over the top has lucarnes. I'm not really that clever, Pat enlightened us on this particular architectural term in WAI 29 :P :P ;D ;D
To quote Pat:
"A lucarne is a "small gabled opening in a roof or a spire"
Hope this helps with the search ;)
We are becoming architect anoraks ;D
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Is that a Knights Templar symbol over the door?
It does look very similar doesn't it
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These are terms for Sussex church architecture but still relevant
http://www.sussexparishchurches.org/spc_V31/glossary
These are more general terms
http://www.kencollins.com/glossary/architecture.htm
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Is that a Knights Templar symbol over the door?
It does look very similar doesn't it
That's why I am thinking Scottish ( or is that Dan Brown whispering to me)
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These are terms for Sussex church architecture but still relevant
http://www.sussexparishchurches.org/spc_V31/glossary
These are more general terms
http://www.kencollins.com/glossary/architecture.htm
That's my homework for the bank holiday weekend sorted then ;D ;D
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Caz, can you zoom into the cross (or whatever it is) above the porch in photo 1?
Definitely looks like a Knights Templar symbol doesn't it? :-\
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As the symbol above the door is so distinctive you would think a few search terms might throw something up, but I've been unable to find anything remotely similar so far.
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Best I can do at the moment. Just got home and have to leave again, so don't have time to rescan.
BBL
Caz
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Thanks Caz. Is it my imagination or does that have the look of a celtic cross? :-\
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Isn't Norfolk the home of flint buildings - and isn't this church a flint building?? I know there are flfint buildings elsewhere in UK - but . . just thinking really.
Just a thought- been watching to much escape to the Country. ;)
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That's the "croix pattée". It being white would suggest that it is related to the "Knights Hospitallers" which is the Order of St John.
Regards
Malky
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The use of knapped flint in older buildings is confined mainly to Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Surrey, Hertfordshire, Oxfordshire, Dorset, Wiltshire, Sussex, Kent, Suffolk and Norfolk.
The photographs are misleading - both are of the same porch.
Imber
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Add Middlesex to that list.
Imber
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Oh well - at least I got the flint bit right! ;D
Thanks Imber. Agree - same porch further away down the steps.
Agree - my uncle who was a Knight of St John (Hospitallers)had a white cross like that on his great cape.
Added but with the 8 points as shown in subsequent posts.
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For those who want some more homework over the Bank Holiday
http://www.stgeorgeto.org/the-cross/
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Having another look at this I don't think its a church...well not in the regular sense. I feel it is either a private church or it is a parsonage or vicarage.
The garden is a bit too much for what I know of churches. ( and true that's not much :) )
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Just wondering about the style, Romanesque maybe ???
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This might help the search:
The Hospice of St. John, Newcastle Hill, Bridgend. A Medieval House (15th century), once believed to have been a Hospice of the Knights Hospitallers of the Order of St. Jon of Jerusalem. Two tablets set in the wall, of medieval date, bore the sacred monogram I.H.S. and the Greek cross and Eagle which were the heraldic devices of the Order. These have been removed for safe keeping help...It's the Hospice of St. John...Newcastle Hill, Bridgend.
Carol
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HI!
The Order of St John have a "Maltese" Cross as their emblem...as in the gates of the previous picture. However, the cross in the original picture enquiry is a "Cross Pattee" ...which is sometimes associated with St Patrick.
djm297
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Thanks for the clarification Djm...it helps to keep the search on track....I posted that photo as the St. John Hospitallers has been mentioned earlier.
I agree DGibbins that it looks more like a Vicarage than a church or chapel
Carol
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Could it be a church hall?
Jennifer
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Wherever or what ever it is, it's well hidden. I note that there are "croix pattée" symbols carved in the stonework at the top of the pillars at the door. Having tried about every variable, it's being a pain to find. :-[ :-[
Regards
Malky
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Here here....I'm all churched out today Malky ::) ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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If you are really really really keen, ::) ::) there is this :-
http://www.churches-uk-ireland.org/county_index.html
Regards
Malky
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I started on that link Malky, but I'm already all churched out ;D ;D
Joy
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Personally, I don't think it is a church hall or a vicarage. It might be originally have been a chantry chapel which the Victorians appropriated for wider church use. So much changed in church buildings during Victorian 'restorations.' Sadly, we don't always know what these buildings might originally have looked like. And any building shown in a photograph might already have been 'victorianised' since photography is a relatively new medium.
A vicarage is of course only the place where the vicar lived. I would hope it looked more like a house and had better sized windows that those small church-sized windows !
I think that the church tower is hidden behind the main building due to the angle of view.
A few ideas ;)
Nell
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Perhaps it's a Chapel as part of an estate and the gentleman with his back to the
camera is Lord Someone-or-other talking to the vicar who receives his living from the
said Lord Someone-or-other ;D ;D ;D
Joy
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Are you suggesting Lord Something-Or-Other posed for the photo to show his constituents he does go to church? Or will he have a copy of the pic in his Funeral Suit 8)
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I'd say both dg ;D ;D After all you can't be too prepared ;D
Joy
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Wow, everyone's been busy with this one!
I've rescanned and zoomed in on the cross, don't know if it's much better though.
Caz
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A lot of church porches have a cross atop the gable - examples here (I stopped after three pages of images):
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4090375
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2646944
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3490557
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2938961
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2214955
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1502170
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1453651
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1960662
and not confined to any one county or area. The crosses vary in style or type maybe depending on when it was built. So I'm not sure how to use the information to limit the search.
Nell
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Another bit of a ramble!! I've been making notes of my own observations and those of others so here goes. Oh and a few architectural terms for Caz too ::)
I agree with Imber, the two photos are of the same porch, but I think taken at different times. the bushes near the window on the right side on #32a are a quite a bit higher. Is there a wall at the top of the steps?
I think it is a church/chapel not a vicarage or church hall as Nell says the windows are more church like. I was thinking on the lines of a private chapel, like Joy, perhaps belonging to an estate. It could also be a chapel for a cemetery, or a hospital, the mental hospital that used to be near where I lived had it's own chapel.
That porch is very ornate for what looks to be a simple flint built building, as Ruskie says, could it be a later addition. We have established that there are two cross pattee's on the porch and I agree with Malky, there appear to be crosses carved into the capitals (tops) of the Corinthian columns[/u] (pillars). I can't make out if there are crosses on the two gate posts but there could be. I also think the rib vaulted roof of the porch has very ornate carvings.
Is that a notice attached to what appears to be a short extension near the front door.
I hope the architectural words underlined will do for you Caz.
Pat
I apologise there is more underlining than I intended and my stupid lap top wont let me correct it
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Great observations Pat, and you are sounding very professional with your architectural terms ;D
Your suggestion that it may be a private chapel got me thinking - maybe it could be a private mausoleum for a wealthy family. The tower we can see at the back could possibly be part of the house and not the chapel.
There's my little ramble.
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Having a break from the tower house ::)
Found this church in Dorset, which has a similar tower top to the one peeping over the roof.
St Wolfrida, at Horton.
I can't find a photograph taken from behind this church, to get a similar angle to no. 32.
Looking on Google maps, there is some sort of structure behind it, but can't really tell what it is.
http://dorset-churches.org.uk/horton.html
My search wasn't as technical as some on this thread. Just "louvred dormers" ;D
Yorkslass
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Nice work and good research Pat...I thought maybe a chapel of repose or similar.
Carol
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Yorkslass, I put St Wolfridas church Horton into Google images and there are a couple showing the other side. Unfortunately it is not the one.
I cannot show them here as I think they are protected by copyright.
Pat
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This is from the other side:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/847345
No porch :(
Actually, looking at the porch, it might more accurately be described as a portico, since the side 'walls' are not solid - in the second picture, on the right hand side of the entrance, you can see the flint wall behind the column. So the roof is supported by those two columns. Possibly a Victorian add on? :-\
Nell
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I agree with you Nell.
Though not the same as our mystery church here is an example of the kind of doorway I think it may have originally looked like. When searching for flint churches the other day I saw many similar examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary_Magdalene's_Church,_Tortington
It is possible that our church was originally intended for one purpose but changed over the years,
including the addition of the porch.
I think our church is old due to the small windows and norman style doorway and the unusual tower with louvres. Slightly similar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George's_Church,_Eastergate
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Wow, this ones certainly got everyone's thinking caps on. Some very in-depth researching being conducted here. There is so much more to a simple little stone building than meets the eye.
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Thanks Caz. Is it my imagination or does that have the look of a celtic cross? :-\
Do you mean the white cross, or the cross above it? There's a pattern in the cross above it that looks celtic to my untrained eye.
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Is that a Knights Templar symbol over the door?
Cannot get the da Vinci code out of my head now.. ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D
Caz
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The tower peeping over the top has lucarnes. I'm not really that clever, Pat enlightened us on this particular architectural term in WAI 29 :P :P ;D ;D
To quote Pat:
"A lucarne is a "small gabled opening in a roof or a spire"
Hope this helps with the search ;)
Well I'm impressed…. ;D ;D ;D
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That's the "croix pattée". It being white would suggest that it is related to the "Knights Hospitallers" which is the Order of St John.
Regards
Malky
This is getting very interesting. Must say you have a very impressive, broad depth of knowledge Malky! 8) 8)
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The use of knapped flint in older buildings is confined mainly to Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Surrey, Hertfordshire, Oxfordshire, Dorset, Wiltshire, Sussex, Kent, Suffolk and Norfolk.
The photographs are misleading - both are of the same porch.
Imber
That's very handy to know Imber. Might also be handy to note down for the rest of the searches.
Thanks for joining in, the more the merrier!! 8) 8)
Caz
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Oh well - at least I got the flint bit right! ;D
Thanks Imber. Agree - same porch further away down the steps.
Agree - my uncle who was a Knight of St John (Hospitallers)had a white cross like that on his great cape.
Added but with the 8 points as shown in subsequent posts.
I also agree it's the same porch taken from different perspectives.
I'll swap you your Knight of St John for one of my Ag Labs! Jealous? Me? ::) ;D Lucky thing! 8) 8)
Caz
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For those who want some more homework over the Bank Holiday
http://www.stgeorgeto.org/the-cross/
So many different styles of crosses, very interesting reading!
Thanks for the link DG.
Caz
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Having another look at this I don't think its a church...well not in the regular sense. I feel it is either a private church or it is a parsonage or vicarage.
The garden is a bit too much for what I know of churches. ( and true that's not much :) )
It does look like quite a well maintained, typical English garden, but it appears to outside the fence of the church, so perhaps the photo was taken from the vicarage garden next door. :-\
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Just wondering about the style, Romanesque maybe ???
I thought medieval, but what do I know.
Caz
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This might help the search:
The Hospice of St. John, Newcastle Hill, Bridgend. A Medieval House (15th century), once believed to have been a Hospice of the Knights Hospitallers of the Order of St. Jon of Jerusalem. Two tablets set in the wall, of medieval date, bore the sacred monogram I.H.S. and the Greek cross and Eagle which were the heraldic devices of the Order. These have been removed for safe keeping help...It's the Hospice of St. John...Newcastle Hill, Bridgend.
Carol
Hmm, that's interesting that the house is medieval, as that's as I mentioned to George, is what I my instincts (based on no factual knowledge whatsoever) said that's what this chapel's style is, but happy to be shot down in flames.
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HI!
The Order of St John have a "Maltese" Cross as their emblem...as in the gates of the previous picture. However, the cross in the original picture enquiry is a "Cross Pattee" ...which is sometimes associated with St Patrick.
djm297
Thanks Djm! How do you and Malky know these things? :o 8) 8) 8)
Nice to have you join us! 8)
Caz
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Could it be a church hall?
Jennifer
Could be Jennifer, but I hope it's not as that will be a needle in a haystack. I also hope it's not a mausoleum, as again, I think that would be impossible to track.
Thanks to you as well for contributing! 8)
Caz
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Wherever or what ever it is, it's well hidden. I note that there are "croix pattée" symbols carved in the stonework at the top of the pillars at the door. Having tried about every variable, it's being a pain to find. :-[ :-[
Regards
Malky
Think this one will end up in the too hard basket. Pity because it's captured my imagination!
Thanks for all your efforts and expertise! :) :)
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Here here....I'm all churched out today Malky ::) ;D ;D ;D
Carol
And that's exactly why I need all the eyes I can get!! :o ;D I know exactly how you feel, after awhile they all start to look the same to me. :(
Thanks to you as well Carol for giving up your time. :) :)
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If you are really really really keen, ::) ::) there is this :-
http://www.churches-uk-ireland.org/county_index.html
Regards
Malky
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Maybe we should allocate a county to two or three people, share the work around and get the whole of the UK covered!! ;D ;D ;D
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I started on that link Malky, but I'm already all churched out ;D ;D
Joy
Aw not you too Joy! Have break, I'm sure you've earnt it! (Big of me to give you some time off don't you think… :P :P :P :P ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D )
Caz
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Perhaps it's a Chapel as part of an estate and the gentleman with his back to the
camera is Lord Someone-or-other talking to the vicar who receives his living from the
said Lord Someone-or-other ;D ;D ;D
Joy
You could well be right and he does receive a stipend from the local gentry. These photos look to date pre WW1, so would that still be something that might occur does anyone know?
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Personally, I don't think it is a church hall or a vicarage. It might be originally have been a chantry chapel which the Victorians appropriated for wider church use. So much changed in church buildings during Victorian 'restorations.' Sadly, we don't always know what these buildings might originally have looked like. And any building shown in a photograph might already have been 'victorianised' since photography is a relatively new medium.
A vicarage is of course only the place where the vicar lived. I would hope it looked more like a house and had better sized windows that those small church-sized windows !
I think that the church tower is hidden behind the main building due to the angle of view.
A few ideas ;)
Nell
I think you're are right about the tower/spire and I think at the very least it's a chapel. As I said earlier, I also think the photo may have been taken from the vicar's garden, hence the well tended garden beds, this side of the fence.
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A lot of church porches have a cross atop the gable - examples here (I stopped after three pages of images):
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4090375
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2646944
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3490557
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2938961
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2214955
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1502170
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1453651
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1960662
and not confined to any one county or area. The crosses vary in style or type maybe depending on when it was built. So I'm not sure how to use the information to limit the search.
Nell
Even if we can't find this chapel/church/mausoleum or whatever it is, I'm really enjoying viewing all these examples and I'm learning so much!
Thanks for posting the links Nell, I've booked marked the site for future reference!
Caz
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Another bit of a ramble!! I've been making notes of my own observations and those of others so here goes. Oh and a few architectural terms for Caz too ::)
I agree with Imber, the two photos are of the same porch, but I think taken at different times. the bushes near the window on the right side on #32a are a quite a bit higher. Is there a wall at the top of the steps?
I think it is a church/chapel not a vicarage or church hall as Nell says the windows are more church like. I was thinking on the lines of a private chapel, like Joy, perhaps belonging to an estate. It could also be a chapel for a cemetery, or a hospital, the mental hospital that used to be near where I lived had it's own chapel.
That porch is very ornate for what looks to be a simple flint built building, as Ruskie says, could it be a later addition. We have established that there are two cross pattee's on the porch and I agree with Malky, there appear to be crosses carved into the capitals (tops) of the Corinthian columns[/u] (pillars). I can't make out if there are crosses on the two gate posts but there could be. I also think the rib vaulted roof of the porch has very ornate carvings.
Is that a notice attached to what appears to be a short extension near the front door.
I hope the architectural words underlined will do for you Caz.
Pat
I apologise there is more underlining than I intended and my stupid lap top wont let me correct it
Wow Pat, you've put a lot of work into this and come up with an excellent descriptive summary of the points of interest in the photos. Very observant of you. Every clue is very helpful.
Pity you live on the other side of the World, I need you here to get me sorted out and organised! Your summaries and maps will be invaluable and are great time saving devices. Thanks so much for going to so much trouble! 8) 8) 8) :-* :-* :-*
Caz
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Great observations Pat, and you are sounding very professional with your architectural terms ;D
Your suggestion that it may be a private chapel got me thinking - maybe it could be a private mausoleum for a wealthy family. The tower we can see at the back could possibly be part of the house and not the chapel.
There's my little ramble.
Great minds..I hope it isn't as I don't think we would find it, but that's what I think it may be as well. :(
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Having a break from the tower house ::)
Found this church in Dorset, which has a similar tower top to the one peeping over the roof.
St Wolfrida, at Horton.
I can't find a photograph taken from behind this church, to get a similar angle to no. 32.
Looking on Google maps, there is some sort of structure behind it, but can't really tell what it is.
http://dorset-churches.org.uk/horton.html
My search wasn't as technical as some on this thread. Just "louvred dormers" ;D
Yorkslass
What a wonderful old building in one my favourite parts of the world. Would love it to be this one!
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Yorkslass, I put St Wolfridas church Horton into Google images and there are a couple showing the other side. Unfortunately it is not the one.
I cannot show them here as I think they are protected by copyright.
Pat
What a shame, never mind..cross that one off!
Caz
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For some reason this one is bugging me too Caz.
The cross I referred to earlier as looking a bit "celtic" is the one on top of the porch (above what we originally thought might be a "knights Templar" cross).
I thought we were looking at two (identical) porches but it didn't seem to make sense that they would be identical - but it must be the angle the photos are taken from and the depth of field in the first one threw me. :-\
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This is from the other side:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/847345
No porch :(
Actually, looking at the porch, it might more accurately be described as a portico, since the side 'walls' are not solid - in the second picture, on the right hand side of the entrance, you can see the flint wall behind the column. So the roof is supported by those two columns. Possibly a Victorian add on? :-\
Nell
What a beautiful, picturesque church. Disappointed it's not this one.
More food for though…..
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I agree with you Nell.
Though not the same as our mystery church here is an example of the kind of doorway I think it may have originally looked like. When searching for flint churches the other day I saw many similar examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary_Magdalene's_Church,_Tortington
It is possible that our church was originally intended for one purpose but changed over the years,
including the addition of the porch.
I think our church is old due to the small windows and norman style doorway and the unusual tower with louvres. Slightly similar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George's_Church,_Eastergate
Gosh, I had to look twice as at first glance I thought that was it (St Mary's that is). The image on the righthand side of the website is how I picture it to be.
I agree, it has quite some age to it for reason you have already eluded too above.
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For some reason this one is bugging me too Caz.
The cross I referred to earlier as looking a bit "celtic" is the one on top of the porch (above what we originally thought might be a "knights Templar" cross).
I thought we were looking at two (identical) porches but it didn't seem to make sense that they would be identical - but it must be the angle the photos are taken from and the depth of field in the first one threw me. :-\
I thought you were. I put a red box around it in the close up to draw people's attention to rather than the white cross.
Agree, it's definitely the depth of field that's creating the illusion and I'm sure we're looking at one porch.
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Just looking around at various styles of church and I'm going to stick my neck out here and guess that this one is 11th to 13th century. ;D
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It does look like quite a well maintained, typical English garden, but it appears to outside the fence of the church, so perhaps the photo was taken from the vicarage garden next door. :-\
I had a thought today. Are there any gardening enthusiasts who could pinpoint some plants and then any that have a specific or local geography?
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Ruskie , the more I look the more I see Saxon similarities so maybe even 600-800ad with additions over the centuries
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Glad I'm not alone in thinking this is an ancient structure dgibbins. :)
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Just looking around at various styles of church and I'm going to stick my neck out here and guess that this one is 11th to 13th century. ;D
I agree. I said earlier I thought it was medieval period (5th to 15th century).
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Built with flint so lies in the chalk belt, the only chalk I ever seen was used on a blackboard. :)
Skoosh.
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Apologies if this has already been suggested (and probably discounted :)) but I am wondering whether we are looking at a church that can be approached from two ways - the photographs being taken as you approach the church from the vicarage/Big House, and then there being a second approach coming from the left of the pictures as you look at them. This will mean that as the public/Great Unwashed walk towards the portico they will see the text that is written on the side roof of the portico. The church tower would then be on the left of the church as you approached it from this way.
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St Mary the Virgin, Betteshanger, Kent?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:St_Mary_The_Virgin_church,_Betteshanger#/media/File:Porch_on_the_church_of_St_Mary_The_Virgin,_Betteshanger_-_geograph.org.uk_-_660109.jpg
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Oh well done Spidermonkey!
No doubt about it really is there.
Brilliant ;D
Yorkslass
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Great Find..excellent!
Been seeing churches in my sleep!..
John
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Well done, spidermonkey.
... and the whole thing ... http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/660105
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Nice work Spidermonkey 8)...I can't believe how many churches of different styles and denominations there are with similar crosses. Result....well done. Like many others...I have been all around the UK in my search.
Carol
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Brilliant find Spidermonkey :) :) :) Nice to see the porch in colour too.
Added:
http://churchcrawler-kentchurches.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/st-mary-betteshanger.html
Mo
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Well done, excellent result. ;D ;D ;D
It appears to be in the grounds of what is now a large school, so we were correct in thinking it belonged to a large house.
There is an excellent item about a visit to this church here http://churchcrawler-kentchurches.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/st-mary-betteshanger.html#links
I was surprised to see how far away from the church are those gateposts.
Pat
edit. Mo great thinking, I must have been typing as you were posting. Pat
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Fantastic work Spidermonkey!! I have searched endlessly and was beginning to think this one wouldn't be found. It's a beautiful little church too. Well done too Mo and Pat for the research ;D
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Sorry Pat,
If I had realised you had posted I would have deleted it. I think everyone should read it to the very end as it is rather touching.
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Has anyone noticed the lucarnes (little louvered dormers in the spire for those who haven't completed their homework ;D) are missing on the more recent photo.
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There are more lovely photos here too..
http://poppysplace-poppy.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/st-marys-church-betteshanger-kent.html
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Jool, more great photos, doesn't it look nice.
It is most unusual having a porch and a portico. I am sure I looked at this one on the side of the tower with a porch and dismissed it. Ah well!!
There is a some wording carved in to the side of the portico, I wonder what it says.
Pat
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Pat, I think I saw this one from the side too, but obviously didn't look close enough ::) At least it's been found by eagle eyes Spidermonkey.
I can't make out the words on the portico either, I have tried a bit of googling in case someone had photographed it close up or transcribed it - no luck.
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Brilliant! That's a wonderful find. :)
Interesting to see that it got a heavy makeover in the 19th century. The porch is apparently Byzantine and the cross in the gable is a Canterbury cross. - but it wasn't given that name until 1867 when they found a Saxon brooch in Canterbury.
Nell
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Very well done Spidermonkey, you're a super sleuth too 8)
I must find something soon, trouble is I can't devote much time to searching
at the moment...life gets in the way ;)
Joy
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Congratulations SpiderMonkey :)
I too am certain I looked at Kent churches :(
Just some interesting notes from sugarbakers link
This charming little church is sometimes called “the Church in the Garden”. It is quite off the beaten track, in the grounds of the magnificent mansion of Betteshanger. There has been a church on this site since before the Reformation. The present building is little more than 100 years old, put up by the first Lord Northbourne in the Norman style, incorporating a Norman window and doorway from the ancient church.
Just looking around at various styles of church and I'm going to stick my neck out here and guess that this one is 11th to 13th century
In the Norman Style ..tick
Perhaps it's a Chapel as part of an estate and the gentleman with his back to the
camera is Lord Someone-or-other talking to the vicar who receives his living from the
said Lord Someone-or-other
By the first Lord Northbourne .. tick
Having another look at this I don't think its a church...well not in the regular sense. I feel it is either a private church or it is a parsonage or vicarage.
The garden is a bit too much for what I know of churches
Come on I have to give myself a big tick ;D
Well done everybody for throwing their clues in. Love this stuff :)
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St Mary the Virgin, Betteshanger, Kent?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:St_Mary_The_Virgin_church,_Betteshanger#/media/File:Porch_on_the_church_of_St_Mary_The_Virgin,_Betteshanger_-_geograph.org.uk_-_660109.jpg
I woke up this morning, did the usual jobs, made myself a cup of tea, thought I'll just log on to check on progress and find there has been some brilliant detective work done overnight! So chuffed it's been found! Clever, clever you Spidermonkey! :D :D :D How on earth did you find this little gem?
Should have known it would be in Kent, such a pretty church and setting!
Excellent work Spidermonkey and welcome to the Super Sleuths Club! ;D ;D
Caz
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Well done, spidermonkey.
... and the whole thing ... http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/660105
It's so cute! So pleased it still exists!
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I've run out of download again so I won't thank everyone individually as it will take all day (when my download runs out, I still have connection, but at dial up speed. :( ). I'm sure you know how much I appreciate everyone's efforts and generosity with your time, so thanks to one and all, and of course especially Spidermonkey! ;)
Another wonderful piece of architecture that quite a few more people now know about. It's a shame you can't go inside, but it would be worth the trek to Kent take some photos.
Now, where did I put No. 34…. :P ;D
Caz
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Has anyone noticed the lucarnes (little louvered dormers in the spire for those who haven't completed their homework ;D) are missing on the more recent photo.
First thing I noticed Jool. I haven't read all the links yet or looked at the pictures, but perhaps the tower was rebuilt at some stage.
Geograph says the current building is only 100 years old and some of the materials from the old church were reused in it's construction. Interesting.
Spidermonkey you are a marvel finding that. I expect between the lot of us we would have looked at thousands and thousands of churches without success. I suppose it wouldn't have helped that the lucarnes are missing and most of the photos are taken from a different angle. ::) :)
As I always like to ask .... how did you find it? Please tell. ;D
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Glad I could help! There was no great secret to me finding it - made a cup of coffee, and trawled through the subsection on wiki for English flint churches! Well done all, another puzzle cracked!
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The house belonged to the family of Lord Northbourne who was Walter c James born 1817 . Found at least one family member Dorathea James born Betteshanger 1898.
Jennifer
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Glad I could help! There was no great secret to me finding it - made a cup of coffee, and trawled through the subsection on wiki for English flint churches! Well done all, another puzzle cracked!
I think there is a lesson to be learnt there in keeping it simple! 8)
Caz
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The house belonged to the family of Lord Northbourne who was Walter c James born 1817 . Found at least one family member Dorathea James born Betteshanger 1898.
Jennifer
Thanks for researching that Jennifer, any background material gratefully received! :) I wonder if that's who the other chap is in my photo, or maybe his son (with his back to the camera).
I wonder if we can find a photo of the house.
Caz
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Glad I could help! There was no great secret to me finding it - made a cup of coffee, and trawled through the subsection on wiki for English flint churches! Well done all, another puzzle cracked!
You make it sou d so easy. I tried that and failed miserably. ;D
Well done anyway!
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Here's a photo of Northbourne house. I think that chapel is just off to the right, up that path. I'm sure I've seen a photo with that tree on it.
Pat
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I'm sure I've seen a photo with that tree on it.
Pat
Is that the green one?
8) :P :D
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I think Lord Northbourne's son or grandson Walter James 4th Baron Northbourne (1892 - 1982), won a silver medal at the 1920 Olympics for GB as part of an 8 man rowing team.
If that wasn't enough, he is also credited with inventing organic gardening and was a lecturer in agriculture at the University of Oxford.
How spot on was Joy with her "Lord Someone or other" prediction… ;D 8)
Caz
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That's my kind of country estate! Very nice.
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Here's a photo of Northbourne house. I think that chapel is just off to the right, up that path. I'm sure I've seen a photo with that tree on it.
Pat
Wow, look at that place. We seem to have a penchant for finding things connected to massive mansions and famous people! ;D ;D
Caz
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I'm sure I've seen a photo with that tree on it.
Pat
Is that the green one?
8) :P :D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
(It's okay Pat, I think I know which tree you mean, the one standing by itself on the lawn).
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That's my kind of country estate! Very nice.
We have such similar tastes. We could add this to our portfolio of Scottish mansions, just as a weekender! ;D ;D ::)
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Yes Caz, I did think of you and "our" Scottish house passion when I posted that last comment.
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Who is good at using street view Google maps (I'd give it a go, but I can't get it to load at the moment)? I'd love to see if we can get a shot of the church in relation to the mansion.
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Gosh, I'm making so many typing mistakes, it's a wonder you can understand what on earth I'm on about. ::)
Anyway, it's a shame we can't see the front of the man in the second photo as he does seem to have a similar build to the 3rd Baron Northburne (the Olympian's father). There is a photo of him on Google images.
The James' family history reads just like the notable families from the other WAI. We sure can find them! ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Northbourne
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There is a photo taken in 1905 with a view of the church from the gardens, here http://www.eastrypc.co.uk/views.asp
I'll have a look at Google earth
Pat
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It's a shame you can't go inside, but it would be worth the trek to Kent take some photos.
Caz
Here's a view of the interior Caz
http://www.kentchurches.info/church.asp?p=Betteshanger
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I have been on Google earth and the church is where I thought it was [behind that green tree ::)] but for some reason I cannot post a link as I am a complete idiot when it is anything to do with computers.
Pat
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Pat, copy (Ctrl c) the web address on the google earth page and paste (Ctrl v) it into your post. Hope that helps ;D
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Hello to everyone, I am the owner of http://poppysplace-poppy.blogspot.co.uk/ and I found this site by tracking my blog views :) I am really pleased that my blog has been of use in this thread. The church is one of my favourites, and unless you know exactly where it is, is hard to find. There are plenty of other churches on my blog for those of you who are interested. This looks a lovely site, I will enjoy finding my way round, regards to all :)
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I think I am right in saying the church is Victorian, and is partly a copy of another amazing church, built in the 12th Century - I wonder if anyone knows which one? ;)
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Hello to everyone, I am the owner of http://poppysplace-poppy.blogspot.co.uk/ and I found this site by tracking my blog views :) I am really pleased that my blog has been of use in this thread. The church is one of my favourites, and unless you know exactly where it is, is hard to find. There are plenty of other churches on my blog for those of you who are interested. This looks a lovely site, I will enjoy finding my way round, regards to all :)
Glad we could boost your numbers :)
Great site and as you say lovely church. Join in the search for more poppy. We would love another detective on the trail
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Thank you for the welcome :) I will look forward to further 'Where am I?' threads, :)
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I think I am right in saying the church is Victorian, and is partly a copy of another amazing church, built in the 12th Century - I wonder if anyone knows which one? ;)
Hi Poppy, It's lovely to have you join us, I hope you will stay around and help us along with the WAI searches. Fabulous photos on your blog :)
Am I right in saying that the church was a copy of Barfrestone Church?
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I may be wrong, as I just skimmed through the links, but I got the impression that the church was rebuilt using some of the materials from an earlier church on the same site? We know how keen on the past the Victorians were.
Welcome to you Poppy! :)
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Welcome Poppy :) I looked through your blog, some beautiful photos especially
the swans.
Joy
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Thank you all for your welcome and comments about my photos, they are much appreciated. Jool, you are correct,the church I was referring to is Barfrestone Church, a truly amazing little church :) Earlier inthis thread there were a couple of people asking about the writing over the doorway of Betteshanger Church. I knew I had photos of it and I will hopefully attach them here, but unfortunately the only words I can read are 'James' and 'AD1868!
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I can read some of it, 3rd and 4th lines:
IN MEMORIAM MATRIS
CARISSIMAE OPTIMAE
which roughly translated means "in memory of master, dearest, best". I'm sure others will be able to read the rest, and improve on my very rusty Latin!
Drosybont
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The writing makes my eyes go funny, but there is a bit that says in memoriam matris carissimae (I think), which means something along the lines of in memory of my beloved mother.
Redboxed! Go with Drosybont's translation instead of mine!!
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First line: In dei gloriam? In God's glory
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Could well be mother! I did say my Latin was very rusty . . .
Drosybont
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Mother.
Jennifer
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It's a shame you can't go inside, but it would be worth the trek to Kent take some photos.
Caz
Here's a view of the interior Caz
http://www.kentchurches.info/church.asp?p=Betteshanger
It's lovely isn't it? So glad it's still standing. I hope it's there for another 100 years or more. 8)
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Hello to everyone, I am the owner of http://poppysplace-poppy.blogspot.co.uk/ and I found this site by tracking my blog views :) I am really pleased that my blog has been of use in this thread. The church is one of my favourites, and unless you know exactly where it is, is hard to find. There are plenty of other churches on my blog for those of you who are interested. This looks a lovely site, I will enjoy finding my way round, regards to all :)
Hi Poppy
Glad you like the Where Am I threads. How lucky am I that you feature the church on your wonderful blog. Hope you stick around as Rootschat is more than just a lovely site, it's full of amazingly, talented and wonderful people willing to share all their expertise to help others. One big happy family really, with a common love of genealogy and all things historical! :) :)
Caz
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Thank you all for your welcome and comments about my photos, they are much appreciated. Jool, you are correct,the church I was referring to is Barfrestone Church, a truly amazing little church :) Earlier inthis thread there were a couple of people asking about the writing over the doorway of Betteshanger Church. I knew I had photos of it and I will hopefully attach them here, but unfortunately the only words I can read are 'James' and 'AD1868!
Thanks for posting those Poppy. It's great getting as much additional information about the photos as it adds a whole new dimension.
Caz
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I can read some of it, 3rd and 4th lines:
IN MEMORIAM MATRIS
CARISSIMAE OPTIMAE
which roughly translated means "in memory of master, dearest, best". I'm sure others will be able to read the rest, and improve on my very rusty Latin!
Drosybont
Thank for the partial translation Drosybont, your input is very much appreciated. :) :)
Caz
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First line: In dei gloriam? In God's glory
I will take your word for it. How you can make anything out of that is beyond me! 8)
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Quite a distinctive porchway - after a few hours on google found this. St Marys Church, Betteshanger, Kent (hope the link to google maps works!)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/St+Mary%E2%80%99s+Church,+Betteshanger/@51.2248809,1.3107243,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipPPFBwjsAeZyzWirDknbVvXWxjYkq52mqMP3o96!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipPPFBwjsAeZyzWirDknbVvXWxjYkq52mqMP3o96%3Dw224-h336-k-no!7i1184!8i1776!4m5!3m4!1s0x47deb1da733250c1:0xe96eb72afd34dfea!8m2!3d51.2248809!4d1.3107243
Trish1908
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That looks very promising.
Here’s the porch which looks very much like the one in Caz’s photo
http://lh3.ggpht.com/-_G-BFdL7N7U/T3y96S9Z5oI/AAAAAAAACTQ/fz_bTDupe6c/s1600-h/IMG_3545NA%25255B3%25255D.jpg
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Looks good except is it possible to establish if the tower has lost its little inset dormer windows since the original picture was taken.
Nell
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Looks good except is it possible to establish if the tower has lost its little inset dormer windows since the original picture was taken.
Nell
Nell, there’s a photo of St Mary's Church, Betteshanger here showing the little dormer windows, estimated to be taken 1885.
https://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/02/B05.htm
Trish, great find yet again!