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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Keith847 on Friday 22 May 15 10:25 BST (UK)
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Hi all
I am trying to find any information regarding my wife, Susan’s, grandmother, Florence Hart, without much luck I’m afraid. I would appreciate a little help from someone who is a bit more skilled than me and can spare the time please.
FLORENCE HART 1st April 1889 – 24th September 1976.
The only info. I have is below:
1901 Census aged 12, inmate at Coleshill, Warwickshire.
1912 Marriage to George Frederick Wooton 9th Nov. 1912 at Aston Brook, St Mary, Warwickshire. Her Father is recorded as being a lock maker named Joseph in the marriage register.
Q4 1915 George F Wooton died in Birmingham.
1922 Q4 Marriage to Bertie Alwyn Beaumont-Thomas in Birmingham.
26th July. 1955 Bertie A. B-T died in Birmingham.
1976 Died in Birmingham.
I cannot find her birth registration, 1891 census, or the 1912 census records for her.
Florence had two siblings:-
JOSEPH HART 1901 census shows his birth as abt. 1891. It also records him as being an inmate at Coleshill, Warwickshire. This is the only info. I have found.
ALBERT HART 1901 & 1912 census shows his birth as abt. 1897. Both census’ record him as being an inmate at Coleshill Warwickshire. Again, this is the only info. I have found.
According to family stories, one of her brothers served with Bertie during WW1 in the Warwickshire regiment, he was supposed to have been a cobbler. I have a copy of Bertie’s war records.
Also according to family stories her mother had a drink problem (I’ve found a Priscilla Hart that was placed on the Birmingham blacklist and prohibited to buy alcohol but I cannot link her to Florence)
Kind regards
Keith
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Hi their is also a Joseph Hart aged 10 b Birmingham shown as Inmate in Marston Green, Coleshill
Census ref RG13/2894/45/18
Keyboard86
Ooops see you have him!
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I dont really know why I am posting, as I have nothing to add, other than to share in the frustration!
I cant find sight nor sound of them on 1891
And yet, the fact that Joseph was born 1891ish and then Albert in 1897ish suggests that whatever happened resulting in the children going into the workhouse, had not happened by 1891!
The lack of anythingin 1891, nor birth regs for them, suggests that they started life with a different surname, maybe.
Not much help am I, but I will keep fiddling around to see if I can come up with anythng.
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Wonder if this is her?
Right birthdate, and father is Joseph and a lock maker!
Christening
St Mary, Aston Brook
17 April 1889
Birthdate 1 April 1889
Florence Lambert dtr of Joseph and Mary Ann of Clifton Road, cabinet lock maker
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A possible death for mother ?
Deaths Jun 1891
Lambert Mary Ann 47 Aston 6d 351
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Hi
Not having much luck either. Could be totally unrelated but there is a Priscilla Hart in the Birmingham Workhouse infirmary in the 1891 census, born c1862 Birmingham. Could be there having Joseph, perhaps.
Class: RG12, Piece: 2401, Folio: 118, Page: 23.
claire
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How do we know for sure that Florence, Joseph and Albert are siblings? Yes, they are all in the workhouse together, but maybe just coincidence there are three children with Hart surname?
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This looks like the birth reg of the Florence Lambert
Apr/May/Jun 1889
Aston
Ref 6d 408
Florence Lambert
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Maybe not the correct Priscilla, looks like she's in with a two year old Thomas Hart too.
claire
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1 2year old Thomas Hart is in Kings Norton Union Infirmary in 1901 census. Just in case this Priscilla is relevant.
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Hi
May have found something interesting
Check where George F Wooton bn 1887 Birmingham is living in the last available census. In the next household is a 48 yr old MARY ANN HART, 4 children, one died.
claire
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1901 census there is a MARY ANN HART inmate in Birmingham Workhouse
Born c1863 Birmingham
Class: RG13; Piece: 2850; Folio: 187; Page: 12.
claire
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Snap! I was just typing that up.
Going back to 1891 there is Mary Ann wife of Jospeh Lowe Hart, but that cant be her, because that one is on 1901 and 1911 along with hubby Jospeh Lowe.
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Certainly a difficult family to track down :)
claire
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1901 census there is a MARY ANN HART inmate in Birmingham Workhouse
Born c1863 Birmingham
Class: RG13; Piece: 2850; Folio: 187; Page: 12.
claire
That one has a different occupation to the 1911 one , but I suppose she could have changed jobs in between !
Looked at that 1891 one too, but came to the same result as Liz !
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Thanks everyone for taking the time to help me out, I am following the strings with great interest, thanks for your help.
The two brothers names, Joseph and Albert are actually correct, whether they are the same two that are in Coleshill I'm not sure but it does seem likely.
I have actually spent the last eight or nine years on this tree and this is by far the hardest part of the search. I have hundreds of pieces of primary documentation from India, South Africa (where Bertie was born), Australia and New Zealand but dear old Birmingham ......nightmare.
Thanks again
Keith
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If the Florence Lambert IS the right person, then maybe Mary Ann Lambert becomes Mary Ann Hart.
I cant see a marriage, but maybe she never married the Mr Hart if there was one.
It would not be unusual for Florence when she married as Hart, to give fathers name as Joseph and it to be enterred with the same surname as her, even though he was actually a Lambert.
But what became of Joseph Lambert the lock maker, I wonder?
I wonder if the relevant record office has any surviving admission registers etc for the Coalhill place, and if it gives any more info about Florence etc . Might be worth an enquiry.
Keith did you see my entry at reply #3? Have you found this in your previous work on this family and already followed it up? Too many similarities not to!
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Liz
Florence's marriage reg. records her father' name as Joseph and in brackets "deceased''. That means that he had died before November 1912.
Apparently Florence spoke of her two brothers Joseph and Albert but I'm not sure that any other family members ever met them. I did try to get admission and departure records from the home and was put in touch with the local authorities but they said the records no longer existed. That was a couple of years ago.
I have just been looking at the witnesses to her marriage to George F Wooton. After a bit of deciphering I've found George Henry Stenson and Beatrice (Beatrix)May Gosling. I haven't found much regarding Beatrice but it turns out that George was married to Lillian Harriet Wooton, George's sister.
I would love to go to Birmingham and be able to Browse through their records but we have been living in Malaysia for the past twelve years so all of my research has to be done online.
Regards
Keith
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Birth
April/May/June 1896
Aston
Ref 6d 312
Albert Lambert
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I see Bertie Alwyn B-Thomas left a Will (executor Florence). I guess you already have a copy. No clues tbere about Florence's family? Didnt leave anything to her brother he went to war with?
Have you looked to see if Florence herself later left a Will, in case shementions her brotbers or nephews and nieces that must be their children?
Looks as if she really made good and came up in the world. From what appears to be a poor start in life.
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Another piece of info that I seem to have overlooked.
Some notes that my wife took many years ago when she was asking her mother about family history refer to Albert's wife "Loui" and their daughter Renee. I'm not sure whether I did any investigation on it.
I did so this morning and came up with this:-
Albert Hart marriage to Louisa Heath Q3 1922 Aston, Warwickshire, vol. 6D Page 1221
Irene L Hart born Q1 1924 Birmingham, Warwickshire, vol. 6D Page 556.
Needless to say, I shall send for the marriage cert.
Although I have had some really good hits when sending for wills I have been loath to enquire whether Florence left one as I remember when she died and there wasn't any great wealth. I may have to have a re-think on that one.
I've also had another look at what connection Beatrice (Beatrix) May Gosling had to Florence and her first husband, George F Wooton; I'm afraid I came up with nothing.
Regards
Keith
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Any thoughts on the Lambert possibility?
Also, not sure from your last reply if you have or havent got Bertie A B-T's will!!!
Also - it will be interesting to see who Albert names as father when you get his marriage cert.
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I cannot rule out the Lambert possibility. To be honest, I've struggled so much with Florence that nothing would surprise me. There are so many possibilities, was Florence a Lambert; were her siblings Lamberts; were the siblings illegitimate, were they all illegitimate ....the list goes on.
I haven't applied for Bertie's will but only because probate passed everything (£594-18- 6) to Florence.
Albert's marriage cert. is my best hope at the moment, if I know his father's name it will obviously be useful but if any of paragraph 1 applies it will get me no further.
I still think that Florence is the key, her birth (maybe Lambert is correct) and where she was during the 1891 & 1911 census records.
Kind regards
Keith
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I haven't applied for Bertie's will but only because probate passed everything (£594-18- 6) to Florence.
You need a copy of the Will to see who the beneficiaries were. The index entry confirms that Florence was executor of the Will, not necessarily a beneficiary, or an only beneficiary!
When someone is granted Probate (usually the Executor named in the Will) that means they are given the go ahead to carry out the bequests within the Will and distribute the Estate according to those bequests. An executor does nor necessarily have to be one of the beneficiaries of the Will.
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Re 1911. we aren't allowed to do look ups for that census.
But a quick look at the index reveals there is a 23 yr old Florrie Lambert.
Might be worth having a closer look at her (to see if things like pob, or occupation match what you know about Florence Hart. I think her marriage cert to Wooton said she worked with buttons)
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Hi
I'm with lizdb on this one, I'm thinking the Lambert connection is correct
JOSEPH LAMBERT bapt. 6 Jul 1891 St. Nicolas, Birmingham. Parents: Joseph and Mary Ann Lambert.
Just have to find the family in 1891
claire
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Yes I think the Lambert connection is looking good.
I have sent for Albert and Louise marriage cert. online and I shall be posting the application for Bertie's will tomorrow.
I have also found the connection between Beatrice May Gosling and Florence/George. The 1911 census records Beatrice at the same address as Florence and George were living at when they married, 15 Bk. of 185 Park Lane, Aston Manor. Interesting as it is it doesn't actually get me any further.
I shall spend the next few days looking at the Lambert connection.
Thanks again
Keith
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Hi
The family were still living on Park Lane in the 1922 Electoral register
No. 183 Park Lane, 3 Court 19
Florence Wooton, Albert Hart and Beaumont Thomas.
claire
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Hi
I might have had some useful news last night ...fingers crossed.
It is difficult to speak to my M.I.Law on the phone as she is hard of hearing. So we asked my sister in law if she could ask her mother if she could remember anything about Florence's mother.
Her answer surprised both of us; she couldn't remember her name but she said that she had met her a few times after she got married in 1947.
With that info. in mind I looked for likely deaths in late 40' early 50' and came up with this:-
Mary A Hart birth date abt. 1863
Date of registration June 1951
Age at death 88
Reg. District Birmingham
County Warwickshire
Vol. 9C
Page 398
I think it might be worth investing in a D.C. but I need to review everything first.
Regards
Keith
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Hi
I think that looks quite promising :)
I think that could possibly rule out Priscilla Hart as there were a couple of deaths of ladies by that name but before 1947.
Anc* have a picture of Priscilla Hart c1903 that was distributed to pub owners when she was barred from buying alcohol.
claire
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JOSEPH LAMBERT bapt. 6 Jul 1891 St. Nicolas, Birmingham. Parents: Joseph and Mary Ann Lambert.
Just have to find the family in 1891
Excellent find!
But just wish I could see his birth reg, and the family on 1891! Seems they were using the name Lambert at the time, but seems odd we cant find either of these 1891 records.
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Hi
I actually found that this morning. I've created a separate tree for the Lamberts so it is easier to work with.
Also I found a 1918 absent voters list that records a Joseph Lambert living at 105 Holly Road; he is recorded as Soldier 32982 Gnr. 248th Sge. Bty. RGA.
There is also a marriage, maybe, for him on Family search,
Q2 1917
Married Minnie Pratt
Aston
Warwickshire
Vol 6D
page 950
I also forgot to mention that mother in law said that Florence's mother was married twice.
We go on holiday to Krabi in Thailand for a week on Thursday; I definitely feel we are breaking a few walls thanks to the help I have received from you all. I would not have picked up the Lambert connect but for you.
Kind regards
Keith
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Hi
Joseph Lambert found guilty of fraudulent bankruptcy in Warwickshire 25th June 1888, sentenced to five months imprisonment without hard labour.
Regards
Keith