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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: gela on Thursday 21 May 15 14:44 BST (UK)
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Hello wondered if anyone please knows how Rosetta Brown nee Smith( born 1808 Wymondham parents William Smith and Charlotte Allen ) and Sophia Charlotte nee Smith( born 1793 Skevant Lincs think mother is Eleanor ) are related.I not sure if Sophia is Rosetta's aunt, cousin or half sister.
In the 1861 census Sophia's son George is living with William Brown and Unity Brown and Rosetta Brown and other family he's showing as cousin . I think Unity brown is Rosetta's sister Eunice Smith born 1813 Irnham parents William and Charlotte.
I'm not sure if Rosetta had a brother Dennis Smith born about 1820 that had children to Eleanor Charlotte born about 1817 Sophia's eldest daughter.
Any info would be a great help thank you
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How old is George? I can't see him on the list in 1861 - Rosetta is down as sister in law.
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George is showing 22 born 1839 Hareby Lincs Agri Labourer
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Have struggled endlessly with the Browns.
My Grt Grt Grt Gran was Mary Brown born circa 1830 in the Lincolnshire area, and married Thomas Smith (s/o William Smith & Ann Elliott who died at Horncastle). Mary Brown ended her days in Horncastle in 1915, being at the time of Waring St, by the Wong, which was where the Horse Fairs were held. I know they married at Wrawby by Brigg and that her fathers name was Thomas.
The only other family of travelling Romanies I have found in the area with the name Brown include the Francis Brown/Rosetta Smith families.
Francis and Rosetta appear to have had the following children by surnames Smith or Brown:
Violet Smith 1826 Ruskington d/o Rosetta - married Sidney Gray
Eliza Smith 1828 Redmile d/o Francis & Rosetta - married Nathaniel Smith
Christopher Smith b.1834 Fulbeck Lincs s/o Francis & Rosetta
Harriet Brown b.1836 Blyborough Lincs married Joshua Gray aka Mobbs
Charles Brown b.1839Laceby (believed to be the man known as Charles Dalton Brown) s/o Francis & Rosetta
Adillarania/Dillerany Brown b.1843 Harmston married Anyan Hewitt 1862
Maria Brown b.1845 Ingham Lincs
William Brown b.1849 Tealby Lincs
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I've been trying to look at Browns today I think there is 2 other daughters for Rosetta and Francis one Elizabeth baptised 1830 Quadring mother Rosetta Smith abode Bourn travellers in Quadring fen and in the 1861 census there is an Isabela born 1851 croxton.
Its interesting you say about Charles Dalton Brown as i think Francis mother may be Johanna Dalton d/o John and Johanna baptised 1779 Fathingston travellers called egyptians. I'm not sure if his father is William Brown s/o James and Magdalene baptised 1767 Towcester 2 travellers.
I think it's Rosetta's sister Eunice ( Unity ) that married William Brown born 1806 Great Ponton ,I found a Robert Burton Brown b 1810 and a Daniel Brown b 1803 Great Ponton parents Thomas Brown and Mary Burton.
I've been trying to find more info on Samuel Brown and i think Lucy Smith b about 1822 Northamptonshire wondering if there is a connection between him and Francis Brown .They had a child Hezekiah b 1854 Little Carlton and i noticed on the 1861 census there is a William Brown a shoe maker living in Ulceby with his wife Mary and son Hezekiah .Samuel and Lucy also have a daughter Wilhelmina b 1859 Hogsthorpe and i noticed Thomas and Elizabeth Elliss (Howell)in the 1861 census also have a daughter Wilhelmina b Ulceby and i'm not to sure if Elizabeth use to be a Brown.
I also think there is connection between the Smiths and Sherriffs as Mark Smith and Eliza Smith were baptised at Redmile together in 1828 Mark's parents John Smith and Martha Sherriff her parents were John Sherriff and Martha Alliss just wondered if there is connection between Alliss and Elliss
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Yes I have come across Francis Brown who I think is the son of Francis & Rosetta (with Francis Sr b.1804 and Francis Jr abt 1835 it would seem to fit. No baptism found, But that might be right as there is an adult baptism for a Francis Brown in 1870 at Grasby.
This is the Francis who married Unity/Eunice. This Francis is the one on census with an alias of Henry Stapleton.
I didnt have Elizabeth, but I did have Mary A c.1846 Brattleby and Isobel.
I have Samuel & Lucy Brown - but I have an alias of Sampson for him and unsure which is his real name. Their children appear to be:
Samson b.1842 Toynton St Peter
Priscilla b.1846 Stallingborough
Nitabella b.1850 Tetford
Hezekiah c.1854 Little Carlton
Joseph c.1856 Little Steeping
Wilhelmina c.1859 Hogstorpe married Mr Wild
(Isabella c.1866 West Ashby d/o Samuel & Lucy Pierce?)
Eldred b.1871 Grimsby
Arthur b.1881 Alford
Sarah c.1860 Goulceby
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I have William Brown as s/o Thomas Brown & Mary Burton, c.1806 Gt Ponton
he was married to Unity/Eunice b.abt 1810 d.1891 Caistor District Lincs.
Can you tell me who you think their children were?
I also have Nathaniel Smith & Eliza and for them I have Frank, Delorani, Rosetta, Beatrice and James.
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i've found baptism for Eunice Brown 19th dec 1813 Irnham Lincs parents William and Charlotte Smith. Eunice ( Unity ) and William had
Joseph b 1837 Martin
Ann b 1841 Willoughton
Sarah b 1843 Tealby
Eliza b 1845 Watton
William b 1848 Granby married Sophia
Aaron b 1851 Wilksby
Julia b 1859 Alford married John Smith
William Brown and Sophia had
John A b 1847 Caistor
Agnes b 1876 Torton
Clare b 1878 Horncastle
Julia Brown John Smith had
Isacc Beck Smith b 1888 caistor
John William Beck Smith b 1891 Caistor
Charlotte smith b1896 Caistor
Samuel Smith b 1897 Caistor
Edith Ann Smith b 1900 caistor
Eliza and Nathaniel had
Alberdine b 1851 south Ferriby married Hannah Rodgers
Francis b 1854 Barnetby married mary Ann Hobson
Dilorani b 1859 Attercliffe died 1870 Ecclesfield
Rosetta b 1861 Attercliffe married Mathew Jackson
Beatrice b 1865 Attercliffe
James b 1869 Ecclesfield
Lydia b 1867 Sheffield
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I also have Francis Brown / Smith that married Unity having
Alberdine Brown b 1854 Goxhill
Isabela Brown b 1857 Ulceby
Corder Brown b 1860 Ulceby
Nathaniel Smith b 1862 Ousby
Eliza Smith b 1866 Ousby
Mary Smith b 1869 Ousby
Charley Smith b 1873 Ecclesfield
Marmaduke Smith b 1881 Ecclesfield
I think Ousby might be Oasby
I'm interested in this family Thomas and Elizabeth Howell i'm not sure if Elizabeth was Brown they had
William b 1856 Minton
Wilhelmina b 1857 Ulecby
Mary A b about 1858 ulceby
jane E b 1861 Ulceby
Charles b 1863 Ulceby
Rabbi b 1867 Brightside married Selina Smith D/O Dennis Smith and Jemima Smith
Clara b 1870 Ecclesfield
Violet b 1870 Ecclesfield
If Elizabeth was a Brown could she be the one baptised at Quadring 1830 as Elizabeth Smith d/o Rosetta living in Bourn travellers in Quadring fen as there is Eliza Smith/ Brown and Francis Smith/ Brown living in Ecclesfield to.
Dennis Smith that was Selina's father was the son of Israel Smith and Eliza Boswell brother of Mary Smith that i think might have had children to John Charlotte and im sure the Charlotte's are related to Rosetta Smith.I also think another daughter of Dennis married a son of Thomas and Elizabeth Howell.
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Been ages since I delved into Family History in a big way, mainly cos my dad died last year. Im having a little trouble getting everything into my head at the moment, but I am trying... believe me.
Ok Firstly its not unsual at all for a family to have kids baptised as Smith when they should be Brown, etc or even interchange as the fancy takes them over the years - the Mobbs/Grays did that, as did other Smith families. For Example:
For Francis & Unity I have (All surnames are Brown unless otherwise stated)
Francis 1850 Blyborough,
Alberdine 1854 Goxhill married 1) Hannah Rogers 1870 and possibly 2)Sarah Needham 1874 Wortley Yorks, as Alberdine Smith
Isabella b.1857 c.1858 Louth
Black Bird b.1859
Corder b.1860 Ulceby aka Cox Bird
Eancy b.1865
Frightful b.1866
Mary Ann Smith b.1867 D/O Francis & Unity Gypsy of Bonby Lin
Black Sandy b.1868
Emily Smith b.1868 Winteringham Lin d/o Francis & Henrietta Gypsy.
Nipper Harriet aka Runtwed b.1871 Attercliffe
As you can see some of the names given on census (Black Bird Cox Bird Eancy Frightful BLack Sandy and Runtwed) are quite likely to correspond with the baptisms found.
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William & Unity:
Ann 1841 Winteringham
Joseph 1837 Timberland had a son Frederick by 1861 who married Selina West 1899 Winteringham
Sarah 1843 Tealby
Eliza 1845 Watton
William 1847 Grasby m. Sophia & had John Agnes & Clare
Aaron 1851 Wilksby
Martha 1853 Skendleby
Julia 1859 Alford
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Newspaper Extracts:
25.6.1852 Lincolnshire Chronicle
Francis Brown, a gypsy broomseller, was charged by Sgt Lampton for being drunk and creating a disturbance on Saturday evening in Upgate, together with a number of their fraternity, men and women, who were driven out of the town by the Police; but the prisoner, being refractory, and continuing the disturbance, was taken into custody. Fined 1s and costs, or 14 days.
26.1.1866 Lincolnshire Chronicle
Francis Brown, and Francis Brown Jnr, and family mentioned as living in two cottages in Ulceby, belonging to Sarah Alcock who was in court because these two cottages were unfit for human habitation (it was her responsibility). Article quite long and not much mention made of the pair, but it does estabish that Francis Brown and Francis Brown were father and son.
12 March 1869 Lincolnshire Chronicle
Corden Brown, about 9 years of age, and Francis Brown, his father, members of the gipsy tribe encamping in the neighbourhood of Cleethorpe-Road, were brought up from custody, the boy charged with stealing and the latter receiving a gold watch and guard, a silver Geneva watch and silk guard, a brass case with a new movement in it, and a pinchbeck case, the property of Mr Sylvester, watchmaker of Cleethorpe Road. Value £14 10S. The evidence went to show that on the 3rd inst, in the temporary absense of the prosecutor, the young prisoner entered the shop and took the articles named, which were hanging on a rod over the work bench. Also some brass nails. On prosecutor returning to the shop he missed the property and a clue to the perpetrator of the robbery was given by a child of prosecutors who saw the boy in the shop, and he was apprehended. When in custody the boy said "i will tell you the truth about the watches. I went home and gave them to my father, and told him where I got them from". The elder prisoner was then arrested by warrent, but he refused to give his name, and when asked if he was the father of the little boy said he did not know. In answer to the charge the man said, "I am innocent as a babe". Both prisoners were committed for trial at Louth Sessions.
16 April 1869 Lincolnshire Chronicle
Robbery of Jewellry at Grimsby
Francis Brown, 30, besom maker and Corden Brown aged 6 years, his son, were charged on the indictment with stealing a gold watch and guard, a silver watch, and other articles the property of Joseph Sylvester at Grmsby, on the 3rd March last. On being called apon to plead to the indictment, it was urged the child could not be called apon to plead: eventually however, he pleaded guilty. It was then found that without the childs evidence the father could not be convicted, and, under the circumstances, it could not be taken: both were, therefore, discharged.
25 Sept 1875 Lincolnshire Chronicle
Francis Brown, gipsy, of Barton, was fined 10s and costs, for being drunk at Barton. PC Stebbings proved the case.
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I have a bit on a Dennis Smith b.cir 1820 Leic who married Eleanor Charlotte, b.1817 Gamblingay Cam. Her parents were John Charlotte and Sophia Smith. They settled at Kirton in Lindsey, Lincs, and died in 1860 and 1887 respectively. Now John and Sophias other children were Edmund b.1822 Hickling Nthants, John 1834 Welton Le Marsh, James 1835 Scredington, Sylvesta 1827 Folkingham, Elizabeth 1828-30 married John Major and Levanci b.1829 married Herilah Riley Boswell.
Dennis and Eleanor had:
Sylvestia b.1838 Cabourne or Caister married Tom Major (brother of John) Israel b.1849 Hemswell, Fenwick b.1846 Ricton? Yks (Repton??) Sabina (no date) Sidney b.1835 Nettleham married Maria, Tennant b,1840 Irby on Humber married Caroline Lucy, and Dennis b.1841
Herilah Riley Boswell was b.1827 Bole Notts s/o Elijah aka Lazarus Boswell and d. 1896 Scarborough. His mother was Harriet Woodward. Their children included:
Israel Smith/Boswell b.1851-5 Barrow Upon Humber d.1912 Scarborough married Maria Jefferson 1878 Scarborough.
Aaron Boswell b.1856 Barrow d.1888
Lemontina b.1862 married Alfred Rhodes s/o James
Riley Boswell b.1873 Bridlington
Ellen Boswell/Smith b.1864 Scarborouh d.1955 married John Ward and had a daughter Mary Elizabeth 1886-1964 married George Thompson.
Jemima Boswell b.1866 Scarborough
William Bowell b.1871 Bridlington
Eve Boswell b.1875 Bridlington.
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I wish I wasnt going to have to say this, but when I give for free and for the love of family history, information that has taken time and cost to collate, and receive no response whatsover, I wonder why I bother to come back here. Its all too common these days, people take happily, but dont bother to contact to give a little back. Sadly, I say goodbye. I know the information I have added here has been read. I also know I sent a pm, and have received no response. Im not sure if you realise it but some of us subscribe to paid sites to get info, including the Newspaper Archive, and some of this have been doiing this long enough that you had to go hunting in the local archives and the London repositories to get this information. Williing to share, but dont expect to be ignored. :(
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Sorry I didn't mean to upset anyone only its the school holidays and I have a 5 year old son who demands a lot of attention . I'm very grateful for the info you shared and found it very interesting. It's one thing I love doing is my family tree I've not been well for a few months after having a nervous breakdown and doing my family tree is one thing that's helping me get better. I did find out that Sarah Brown D/o William and Unity b 1843 Tealby married Henry Clayton s/o John Clayton and Francis Booth and had the following children
William b 1870 Holton le clay
Alice. B 1873 Holton le clay
Fanny. B 1876 Tetney
Esther. B 1879
Frank. B 1880 Tetney
Fred. B 1885 Tetney
I also found out that Lucy Smith b Irchester 1824 married Samuel Brown was the d/o Abraham Smith and Mary and that her brother John Smith bp Ludborough 1837 married a Julia Elliott d/o Edward and Martha
Again I'm sorry and should have said thank you sooner for the info
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Sorry I didn't mean to upset anyone only its the school holidays and I have a 5 year old son who demands a lot of attention . I'm very grateful for the info you shared and found it very interesting. It's one thing I love doing is my family tree I've not been well for a few months after having a nervous breakdown and doing my family tree is one thing that's helping me get better. I did find out that Sarah Brown D/o William and Unity b 1843 Tealby married Henry Clayton s/o John Clayton and Francis Booth and had the following children
William b 1870 Holton le clay
Alice. B 1873 Holton le clay
Fanny. B 1876 Tetney
Esther. B 1879
Frank. B 1880 Tetney
Fred. B 1885 Tetney
I also found out that Lucy Smith b Irchester 1824 married Samuel Brown was the d/o Abraham Smith and Mary and that her brother John Smith bp Ludborough 1837 married a Julia Elliott d/o Edward and Martha
Again I'm sorry and should have said thank you sooner for the info
Oh my. I think you have linked into my family repeatedly there.
My grt x 2 gran was Deliah Smith b.1848 Ludborough. Her parents were Thomas Smith & Mary Brown b abt 1830.
Julia Elliott d/o Edward & Martha - he was the brother of Ann Elliott who married William Smith of Coleorton, and they were the parents of my 3x grt Gran Maria Smith who married Christopher Gray.
Sorry I moaned, its wasn't really you I've had a few people be rather rude in other forums and noy bother to come back one they got their info. Hope you continue to enjoy your family history, it's been my hobby for 25 years now.
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found them on the 1861 census Spilsby
Edward Elliot 68 gipsey Willoughby
martha 59 wife great ponton
james 30 son Grantham
charlotte 28 daug wyberton
francis 28 son skellington hill
julia 22 daug timberland
arnold 19 son bloxham
jemima 15 daug burwell
harriett 12 daug billingborough
chrostopher 10 potterhonworth
sarah daug 22 nottingham
thomas gson 6 cumberworth
samuel gson 4 manthorpe
lydia gdaug 2 billinghay
william gson 1m alford
john smith boarder 24
sarah brown boarder 19 wootton
did notice that martha was from great ponton same place as william brown b1806 that married unity smith and wootton seem to be a place for browns
1871 village wooton
william brown 55 ag lab wooton
mary 43 bassingham
benjamin ( hezekiah ) 15 wooton
william 9 ulceby
sarah 7 ulceby
tom 5 wooton
matilda 2 wooton
i did read somewhere about an Alford gypsy lucy brown nee smith about 100
1871 census
alford
john smith 34 ag lab ludborough
julia smith 29 martin
edwin 7 sheffield
richard 2 carlton
lucy brown visitor widow 40 hawker northamptonshire
wilhelmina brown 12 hogsthorpe
ive got lucy on the 1861 ,1881 and 1891 census and some of the childrens baptsims i also got census info on sarah brown and henry clayton i'l try and send it over the weekend
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the children i have for samuel ( sampson) brown and lucy smith are
pricillia 1851 stallingborough samuel and lucy gypsy
hildred 1847 south reston samuel and lucy chair mender
mehitabella 1850 tetford
hezekiah 1854 little carlton sampson and lucy wondering gypsies
joseph 1856 little steeping samson and lucy chair bottomer
wilhelmina 1859 hogsthorpes
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All very interesting stuff, and whilst we both have found new additions to the families, we dont have any concrete links between them - and I wish we did.
The only thing I can add at present is the fact that my great x3 Grandparents, Thomas Smith & Mary Brown were mentioned I believe by the Revd George Hall in the book The Gipsies Parson - when he said that the last vestiges of the once great Brown family could be found down a back street in Horncastle. Thomas Smith & Mary Brown lived in Waring St, just round the corner from the Wong where the horse fair was held.
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A couple of other Browns I have collected:
John or Jack Baker or Brown married Rachel Heron/Hearn they had:
Bui or Boyer Brown 1821-6 supposedly Long Sutton Lincs, married Lydia Smith b.cir 1821-6 Bury St Edmunds, and later Alice Gray. He died 1896 at Stibbard Nfk as Boaz Brown. No known issue.
His brother Tom Brown b.1821 ish Leverington? Camb married Mary aka Caroline. Their daughter Lydia Cooper is often given as his wife, but she was their daughter. bapt 1831 Fakenham Nfk d/O Thomas & Caroline Cooper
There was also Edith Cooper 1848 Yarmouth, Sarah Mary Brown 1849 Wisbech, and then things get a bit blurry. Joshua Smith Cooper 1853 Forncett Noah Cooper 1857 Edgefield, Sedenea/Sapariel or Sarah Ann Cooper b.1860 Reepham Nfk, all listed as both children and grandchildren on various census. Lydia Cooper had a daughter Cordelia 1864 Reedham who went on to marry Henry Cushion. there was also Albert 1867 and Laura, 1870 Norwich.
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From the Heron Pedigree by Revd George Hall (this document is a family pedigree with no dates, I have tried to find dates and places to verify the details)
Lydia d/o Tienna Heron and Stephen Pierce b.circa 1845 Tetford Lin, m. Hezekiah Brown b.cir 1852 Wooton Lin, also known as Tutti.
Tiennas sister Miseretta/Miseretti Heron married Eldred Smith or Brown (or Pierce or Winter apparently) Their daughter Constance b.1847 louth m. Eldred or Ephraim Brown a horse dealer of Laughton. Daughter Sinfai aka Sophia b.1849 Erin Flash Nott married William Brown b.1853 Grasby
and their son John Arthur Brown .1874 Caistor married Mary Ann Elliott
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just sat now looking at browns and claytons just drawing a tree to try follow my notes.I'm wondering if unity brown is related to sampson( samuel) brown who married lucy smith/booth, in 1881 there is a samuel brown b 1842 toynton a hawker living with a unitta brown aunt widow b 1829 cawby hawker.In 91 still in tetney there's a eunice brown widow 60 osgodby with a son samuel aged 40 b steeping a hawker . There is a death for a unetta brown aged 80 louth 1891 and does tetney come under louth.sampson and lucy had a son sampson born 1842 toynton in 1871 theres a samuel that matches living in great grimsby.Henry and Sarah Clayton are living in tetney in 1881 and 1891 which would mean Sarah is living near her mum .In 1861 Henry's parents are living in tetney and there is a Selina Smith grandaughter aged 14 beelsby i wonder if this is the daughter of Sistance Charlotte and clementina clayton.In 1881 there is a Selina b 1845 beesby married to an Arold Ellett but in 91 she gives her birth place as Alford 1848 and hes Arnold Elliot a horse dealer.Looking at 1861 for Elliott they have a son Arnold and i wonder if Sarah Brown might be William and Unity's daughter.Can't really find much on sampson /samuel brown only in 1841 him and lucy are living in spilsby he's showing b 1821 with her mother mary booth and her brother and sisters.Think i'll send for Unetta's death certificate see what it says . In 1881 2 of Unity's children William and Julia are with Sistance Charlotte and the charlottes are related as George is cousin in 1861 to william and unity.Wish i could find out more about Sampson/Samuel Brown
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I apologise for my typing the keyboard is playing up
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just ordered Unetta Brown death certificate this morning
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good move I think. I wish I could find out more about Mary Brown b.circa 1831 place unknown, d/o Thomas. She married William Smith 1849 Wrawby near Brigg, and died in Horncastle, but heaven knows how I will be able to find her birthplace, or her mother. Its so annoying they dont all link together nicely.
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Found Aaron Brown s/o William and unity he married an Elizabeth Maddison and in 1891 William Clayton b 1871 Holton le clay is living with them the son of Sarah Brown and Henry Clayton .
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Claytons and Booths married into the Gray lines as well.
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just sat looking at a Grey baptism ,Sinfire Grey baptised at Stannington Christ Church in 1852 .Its a church i really like as relatives off my mums side where the local stonemasons and helped build the church and one was the church sexton. A number of my mums family have been baptised, married and buried there.
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i've got a feeling that Samuel/Sampson Brown might be the brother of William Brown b1806 Ponton
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just come across wilhelmina howell d/o thomas howell and elizabeth brown married a mark sherrif 1878 shalesmoor sheffield in 1881 they where living in ecclesfield with their children mark b 1853 ousby and wilhemina b1857 ousby
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Wrote my notes up I'm following now so elderd brown that married Constance and hezekiah brown who married Lydia are brothers parents Samuel/ Sampson brown and Lucy smith was looking at so many Browns I was getting confused
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Just found out that Francis brown jnr was married to a unity smith
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not sure if i've come across another daughter for francis and rosetta , a lettice brown smith baptsied in 1824 plungar leicester thats in the civil parish of redmile mother rosilla smith .just wondered if any one has any info please on docia and ann smith parents of a unity baptised willingham by stow in 1834 or an ann smith that died aged 55 in 1847 barton wife of i think a doacha smith. I think a johanna dalton may have died in louth workhouse in 1847
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John Clayton as mentioned is my 3rd g.grandfather.(please see image)
John Clayton (1796 - 1886) is your 3rd great grandfather
Tobias (Thomas) Clayton (1834 - 1889) son of John Clayton
Fanny Clayton (1867 - 1952) daughter of Tobias (Thomas) Clayton
Harry Prescott Clayton (1893 - 1950) son of Fanny Clayton
Cathleen Lillian Emily Clayton (1923 - ) daughter of Harry Prescott Clayton
Roy Saxby - is me.
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I also have Francis Brown / Smith that married Unity having
Alberdine Brown b 1854 Goxhill
Isabela Brown b 1857 Ulceby
Corder Brown b 1860 Ulceby
Nathaniel Smith b 1862 Ousby
Eliza Smith b 1866 Ousby
Mary Smith b 1869 Ousby
Charley Smith b 1873 Ecclesfield
Marmaduke Smith b 1881 Ecclesfield
I think Ousby might be Oasby
I'm interested in this family Thomas and Elizabeth Howell i'm not sure if Elizabeth was Brown they had
William b 1856 Minton
Wilhelmina b 1857 Ulecby
Mary A b about 1858 ulceby
jane E b 1861 Ulceby
Charles b 1863 Ulceby
Rabbi b 1867 Brightside married Selina Smith D/O Dennis Smith and Jemima Smith
Clara b 1870 Ecclesfield
Violet b 1870 Ecclesfield
If Elizabeth was a Brown could she be the one baptised at Quadring 1830 as Elizabeth Smith d/o Rosetta living in Bourn travellers in Quadring fen as there is Eliza Smith/ Brown and Francis Smith/ Brown living in Ecclesfield to.
Dennis Smith that was Selina's father was the son of Israel Smith and Eliza Boswell brother of Mary Smith that i think might have had children to John Charlotte and im sure the Charlotte's are related to Rosetta Smith.I also think another daughter of Dennis married a son of Thomas and Elizabeth Howell.
gela i don't know if you have solved this one yet but I think that all this is right at least according to my source which is the biography of Rabbi Howell the footballer who you mention above. And I believe Elizabeth Howell was Brown as I come through this line and have 9 Ancestry DNA matches to Charlotte Allen through multiple lines.
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just come across wilhelmina howell d/o thomas howell and elizabeth brown married a mark sherrif 1878 shalesmoor sheffield in 1881 they where living in ecclesfield with their children mark b 1853 ousby and wilhemina b1857 ousby
This is the Sheriff link someone else mentioned. Wilhelmina was my great great grandmother. Mark Sheriff and his father had Romany professions (Tinner, Peg maker, Besom maker etc). I am researching this Yorkshire line although Sheriffs seem to have come from Lincs too. Before that I have Bucks which looks wrong so am keen to redo this now I have DNA matches.