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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Rataouille on Monday 18 May 15 19:25 BST (UK)
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My grandfather Fred Lawson started life as Fred Gates in Raunds in Northamptonshire, son of Mr and Mrs Thomas Gates. For some reason he changed his name to Herbert Frederick (Fred) Lawson during the first World War, apparently choosing the name Lawson from a street name in Raunds just yards from the Gates family home. In October 1915 he was awarded the military medal for action on the Somme but there is no longer any record of why the medal was given. Four months later he married my grandmother in Cheltenham as Fred Lawson but was back in France again and injured in August 1916. There is an article from the Peterborough Advertiser in 1916 about three Gates brothers all injured in France around the same time, Fred, Walter and Earnest. (See attachment)
According to my mother (Freds daughter) Fred lived out the rest of his life as Fred Lawson, living and working as a cobbler in Cheltenham, occasionally disappearing for a few months at a time, with letters addressed to Gates in Raunds and occasional visits from uncle Walter Gates.
Can anyone help with information about the medal or the change of name? Are there any living descendants of the Gates family who could shed some light on this puzzle?
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Hi Rataouille,
Welcome to RootsChat.
Herbert Frederick LAWSON married Florence Elizabeth Rachel BREWSTER at the Register Office, 1916 Cheltenham 6a 656 Mar Qtr.
Victor
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Hi,
Me again. I thought I'd see if there were any children and found the following:-
Kenneth LAWSON b.1919 Cheltenham 6a 582 Mar Qtr
Mary B. LAWSON b.1922 Cheltenham 6a 710 Sep Qtr
Victor
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Thanks Victor,
Kenneth and Mary are my uncle and mother
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Class: RG13; Piece: 612; Folio: 90; Page: 28
Fred Gates aged 19 is in Aldershot on the 1901, in the Army service corps cleaning area?
Class: RG12; Piece: 1221; Folio: 89; Page: 8; GSU roll: 6096331
1891 Fred Gates aged 7, with parents Thomas and Susan
Baptism 15 July 1883 Raunds
Fred Gates
Parents Thomas and Susan
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Welcome to Rootschat Rataouille. :)
There is an article about him here Rataouille http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=181675
He has a medal card on Anc*** under Sgt Fred Gates No. 16972
I have the war diary and like Steve says I can not see him mentioned by name.
Sandy
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There is a service record for Ernest of Burton Latimer.
Also a Medal Roll award for Fred and Walter.
Sandy
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Due to the fact I have a suspicious mind I would immediately think that he was married to another woman before 1915. He couldn't use the name he married the first wife with (his birth name) to marry Florence BREWSTER or he would get charged with bigamy and so had to keep living out the lie (his new name).
Keeping his name in the Army wasn't a problem because if wife number one didn't know he was married to someone else as well she could cause any trouble - practical?
Although how you would prove this even with a list of possible marriages, dna tests on living decendants from his secret family, if there were any?
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Thanks seahall, larkspur and whiteout7,
We've thought of bigamy but I can find no record of other marriages. The military medal has his name as Sgt Fred Gates No. 16972. Wasn't aware of the medal card or medal roll for Fred and Walter. How do I check these out?
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This puzzles me
Frederick Gates Service number 16972 has two medal cards, so you would need both?
Maybe they both refer to two different times of service?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=&_ln=Gates&_no=16972&_crp=&_ttl=&_cr1=WO+372&_dt=M&_col=200&_hb=tna&image1.x=58&image1.y=13
I don't know if ancestry shows both but I would certainly get both from the British archives (if you can) and compare the two. Why one of them talks about Women's services is bizarre, was he training ww1 female spies? Or is this information just dumped in with the MM roll? Notice the two war office reference numbers are different even though the service numbers are the same.
I have got mine off British archives before and the site works well. My own gr.grandfather only has one medal card, so why does Frederick Gates have two? You will find the first theatre of war on them, medal entitlements and where he was posted around.
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Medal Card
Fred Gates 6 North'n R 16972 SGT
Class 'Z' 1.3.19 Victory Medal and British War Medal
Theatre of War (1) France date of Entry 26.7.15.
As I already mentioned he seem's to have been in the Army on the 1901 census.
Fred Gates - Guard -single- 19-Private-- cannot read the regiment looks like / Wales Borderers ( maybe someone else can read it better than me) born Raunds Northamptonshire
Class: RG13; Piece: 612; Folio: 90; Page: 28
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I think it is S Wales Borderers.
Sandy
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The other card (with the WO 372/23 reference) is for his Military Medal gallantry award.
I have discussed Fred Gates before with someone called Michael - it look like the photo above was one I copied from the local papers.
I have made a fairly long post on a different forum about Fred Gates. Are you aware of this already?
Steve.
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Have you tried the London Gazette? I am hit & miss on searching it but i found my own Grandfather had listed an add there stating his change of name in 1944, he was in the forces too, his signed up as a Savory & left as a Gilbert ( i have his service records & it was changed on them)
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this topic has been mentioned before here
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=181675
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Fred Gates Military Medal was in the London Gazette of 11-11-1916
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29819/supplement/10922
The Military Medal was first instituted in March 1916 and in late 1916 some of the awards that were previously recommended (but didn't quite qualify for a DCM) were made as Military Medals, these being for deeds between August 1914 (where applicable to individual battalions) through to April/May 1916. Fred Gates' M.M. appears in the Gazette along with other 6th Battalion men award the M.M. for this earlier period. I don't believe that it relates to the Somme period of their war in July 1916.
Steve.
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Thanks to you all for your replies.
In particular Stebie9173. Yes you did make an extensive reply to Michael who passed it on to me. That reply forms the core of information I have on Fred. Since then the only thing I have been able to add is, as I said here in my original post, that having visited Raunds a year ago to take a look at the three addresses the Gates family had lived at I was astonished to see, at the junction of Hill St. and Gladstone St. another street sign for Laswon St. This is clearly where the new name came from but I am still no closer to finding why the name was changed.
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Hi
I am one of Fred gates great granddaughters my mum was Karen gates daughter of Donald gates son of Fred gates and lily Warner
This is all such a shock but would explain why this family is so difficult to trace.
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And thank you Steve for pointing me in the right direction
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Lucy,
I think we are talking about a different Fred(erick) Gates. I have posted some details on the topic on the Great War Forum of who I think is your Frederick - who was from Stanwick rather than Raunds (though obviously only a stone's throw away).
Steve.
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Im very confused my great grandfather was called Fred gates and is the man pictured with his brothers Walter and Ernest
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I think we are all confused! ???
Can you tell us what you do know for certain about Fred and his family? Family members, dates, etc? Do you have birth and marriage certificates and the like?
Steve.
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I was basing my previous answer on the other Forum:
I think this is a different Fred Gates - "yours" is, I believe, Frederick Thomas Gates, born 1892 at Stanwick, son of Owen Thomas and Mary Ann Gates. The Fred Gates we have been looking at was Fred Gates (no middle name and Fred rather than Frederick) born in 1882 at Raunds. So, same name and born within half a mile of each other, but I think they were different people. The details we know of the Fred Gates in the Northamptonshire Regiment with number 16972 fit with the Raunds Fred Gates rather than the Stanwick Frederick Gates, as far as I can see.
on the fact that Lily Warner married a Frederick T Gates in 1917:
Name: Frederick T Gates
Spouse Surname: Warner
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1917
Registration district: Thrapston
Inferred County: Northamptonshire
Volume Number: 3b
Page Number: 341
The Fred Gates we have been discussing above and on the GWF does not seem to have had a middle name, nor been anything other than "Fred"
There is a very similar family to the one we have discussed above who lived in neighbouring Stanwick - this family also had a Frederick, a Walter and an Ernest (Ernest Owen Gates' service records are online).
This is that "Other" family I refer to:
Frederick Thomas Gates 1892 - 1962
Parents:
Owen Henry Gates 1876 1968
Mary Ann Barker 1868 1942
Siblings:
Ernest Owen Gates 1891 1970
Herbert Sidney Gates 1894 1895
William Arthur Gates 1896 1972
Beatrice E P Gates 1900 1916
Walter Jim Gates 1903 1988
Bertha Lillian Gates 1904
Mary Gates 1909
William Henry Gates 1910 1995
There are two very similar family trees on Ancestry that show the above family members and associate then with the Frederick T Gates who married Lily Warner.
Steve.
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Oh right ok I understand how confusing though?
Two family's with the same surname both with a Fred Walter and Ernest in neighbouring villages, perhaps they are related? Could Owen and Thomas be brothers? Just a thought
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Yes there were two Fred Gates in the same area. The one who is your grandfather I believe died in Raunds on 11th June 1946 aged 61. Yes it is confusing that there were two people with the same name in the same area.
There is an F Gates listed as one of the marchers in the t h e 1 9 0 5 R a u n d s S t r i k e of boot makers a n d m a r c h t o L o n d o n but again I have no idea if this is my Fred or yours.
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I think the Fred Gates who died in 1946 , aged 61 is actually a third Fred Gates (from Hargrave, born about 1885)!
Frederick Thomas Gates died in 1962, I believe, age 69/70.
Steve.
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My family know very little about the gates family back then, so has been very difficult. It's still quite hard as you say which Fred did what and when. I have a photograph of my Fred with his wife lily and there are similarities to your Fred, so I presumed they where the same person. I was originally searching my grand father Donald Reginald Gates but I am able to find very little about him. He told us stories of world war 2 but j can find absolutely no record of him
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Lucy. Did your Grandad Donald die 1999 in Suffolk?
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Birth registered Thrapston Cambs Oct 1918 MMS Warner, Donald R Gates
Marriage Thrapston Mar 1917 3b/341
Frederick T Gates and Lily Warner
You need to send for the marriage certificate and this will give you the name of Fredericks father.
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Frederick Thomas Gates Jul 1892 Thrapston 3b/227
Baptism Stanwick
Frederick Thomas Gates
2 April 1893
Parents Owen and Mary Ann
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Yes that's my grandfather seems to be very little about him and nothing from the war. And yes I believe Owen and Mary are Fred's parents
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The absent voters list shows Frederick Thomas Gates of West End, Stanwick as a Private in the "1st H.L.I.". Normally this would be interpreted as the 1st Battalion Highland Light Infantry (an infantry unit on the Western Front during 1915 and later in Mesopotamia).
However, there is no medal card for Frederick Gates under that number - which would mean that either the card is lost, he didn't serve overseas or that he was transferred to a different Regiment before serving overseas.
Steve.
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This link may be of interest:
http://www.stanwickwarmemorial.co.uk/72.html
Bottom of the page, dated 26 Jan 1917.
The newspaper article refers to "Gunner Fred Gates" - Gunner is usually associated with the Artillery, and occasionally with the Machine Gun Corps. This also suggests that he was serving at the time of his marriage and that his marriage certificate could give further information on his military status.
The death of Lily's brother Horace is noted here:
http://www.stanwickwarmemorial.co.uk/63.html
The Stanwick website may well be a good place for you to contact.
Steve.
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We think the badge on his hat matches the royal garrison artillery but it won't let me upload the picture
I want to say good luck ratatouille in your search for your family I'm sure we will probably bump into each other on these forums one way or another (Fred hey !!) and I called my son Freddie too!!
Thinking about the march to London, my Fred would have only been 13 and your Fred in the army so maybe Fred no3?
And thank you Steve for your help I sing seem to know where to start with a lot of it, but I just can't find any military records for Donald (grandad) if he was a spy or involved in any secrecy how would I find out?
Thanks again everyone
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Military Records for men who served after 1921 are still subject to Privacy (rather than Secrecy), so are only fully available to either the man (or his widow) or else the next of kin - children, granchildren etc. You can obtain copies of records from the MOD Archives. See:
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/overview
https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records
In general, records for men who served in WW1 (but not later) are generally available, but very fragmented (if they exist at all), and those for after WW1 exist but availability is restricted.
Steve.