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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: ColinUSA on Friday 15 May 15 12:15 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am wondering if a woman would be listed in Griffiths if her husband was alive and well. Anybody know a specific example?
Thanks,
Colin Ferguson
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As far as I am aware Griffiths Valuation was a list of those responsible for paying the rates on a piece of land or building.
This is why rural labourers or the working classes in cities typically don't appear.
Given the times this was usually the Head of Family, most of times being the male.
I can't say I've come across the 'wife' being the one paying the rates if her husband was 'alive and well' although I'm sure there are exceptions.
Was she a business woman in her own right ?
Do you want to give us your example to see if we can help ?
Tara
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Hi Tara,
Thanks for offer. My problem is a convoluted mix of John and Margaret Fergusons.
A Margaret Ferguson appears in Griffiths Valuations 1857 as both an occupier and immediate lessor at map reference 10 in Tullyboy, Kilbride Parish, Co. Cavan. The valuation records of the Electoral Divison of Ballymachugh, parish of Kilbride 1857-1930 lists John Ferguson as occupier of map references 1 and 7 on a page that appears dated 1862. Margaret Ferguson still occupies map reference 10 but a second entry shows Robert Ferguson in a different handwriting as though he became a joint occupier about 1860. Later, about 1872 it appears that Robert becomes the sole occupier as on this page Marg. appears but is crossed out. In this time frame the name John Ferguson no longer appears. From 1880 on, the only Ferguson listed is Robert.
That Robert appears in the 1901 census, age 65. His 1834 baptism record names his parents as John and Margaret. His civil registration marriage record of 1864 names his father as John and does not indicate that his father was deceased at that time.
Colin
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Hi Colin,
I'm not sure how well versed you are on Irish records but I think your research here hinges on the marriage cert.
It was NOT always recorded on a marriage cert if the father was deceased or not.
It was purely random based on the clerk whom filled in the paperwork ~ some asked the question and noted whether the father was deceased or not, other clerks didn't.
So, the issue with GV in townlands is that we can presume that because we KNOW that our ancestor came from that townland we then presume that the folks on the GV with the same surname MUST be the same people.
How do you know that the John & Margaret listed are actually the parents of Roger ?
They both could have died in 1835 and so obviously not appear on the GV.
The Margaret that is listed could be the widow of a different Mr Ferguson.
Alternatively, it COULD be your Margaret and in fact YOUR John was deceased.
The John Ferguson listed might not be YOUR John and is just related in some other way; cousin, uncle, grandfather.
I'm probably not answering you question with great clarity but it might give you some ideas to ponder on.
Tara
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Hi Tara,
I think you are right about the marriage cert and I cannot find a suitable death record of a John Ferguson of Tullyboy who the cert implies is alive in 1864. I know from several sources that my father's grandmother Annie Eliza is the daughter of Robert Ferguson of Tullyboy. His parents were named John Ferguson and Margaret Chambers.
Annie Eliza was a cousin of my father's grandfather Robert Wesley Ferguson. His ancestor John Ferguson was of Tullyboy according to his burial recorded at Ballymachugh in 1847. His wife was Margaret Elliott. From military records, the 1821 census, the Ballymachugh parish records and letters written in the era I am confident this is not the Margaret in Griffiths.
I am trying to figure out how Annie Eliza and Robert Wesley were related as cousins but am unable to do so. Tullyboy is in the parish of Kilbride and unfortunately those records do not survive. I am lucky that my ancestors sometimes attended church in nearby Ballymachugh so I at least have some of the puzzle pieces.
Thanks,
Colin
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Just a quick point ~
IF we work on the presumption that John Ferguson was NOT alive when his son got married then he obviously died before 1864.
Civil Registration only began in 1864 so you won't find a civil death record for him.
Your next option then is to look at the local church to see if they have a church burial or rememberance record for him.
The problem with this then is that the vast majority of churches at the time just didn't keep these records.
Those that did, well the information is scant at best; it might just say Mr Ferguson and a date, and usually if money was due for the burial ~ no address, no age, no next of kin, no cause etc etc etc.
It's really random from church to church re the burial records.
Tara
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So, just trying to make out your last post:
Am I right in saying that you KNOW that there were 2 John Fergusons in the area at pretty much the same time ?
So, is it just the relationship between these two branches that you are trying to work out ?
Tara
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. . . am I reading you right . . .
YOUR Great Grandmother was called Annie Eliza Ferguson
YOUR Great Grandfather was called Robert Wesley Ferguson
You have been told that this Annie & Robert were cousins.
Have you been told what degree of cousins that they were ie first, second etc
Did Annie & Robert get married in Ireland ?
Did you try on rootsireland to get their CHURCH marriage record ?
IF they were cousins there would have to have been a dispensation and the priest / clerk would / should have written in the records to say what degree of cousins this couple were.
That then makes it easier to work back how far the cousin connection is !
Tara
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Hello,
I am wondering if a woman would be listed in Griffiths if her husband was alive and well. Anybody know a specific example?
Thanks,
Colin Ferguson
There are bound to be plenty of exceptions but the vast majority of women I have come across in Griffiths were widows.
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Is this you ?
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~colin/Ancestors/Ferguson/Tullyboy.htm
Tara
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1861 there is a John Ferguson of Tullyboy in a Petty Sessions Record !
Tara
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There is also an 1866 John Ferguson on Tullyboy Petty Session record !
Tara
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There is an 1868 Dog Licence Record for John Ferguson of Tullyboy.
* I am just posting these to try and get a timeline for a John Ferguson in the area !
Tara
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Have you ever looked into the possibility of BOTH John Fergusons being deceased and that the John Ferguson listed could be Robert's brother or cousin ?
Tara
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A Margaret Ferguson appears in Griffiths Valuations 1857 as both an occupier and immediate lessor at map reference 10 in Tullyboy, Kilbride Parish, Co. Cavan. The valuation records of the Electoral Divison of Ballymachugh, parish of Kilbride 1857-1930 lists John Ferguson as occupier of map references 1 and 7 on a page that appears dated 1862. Margaret Ferguson still occupies map reference 10 but a second entry shows Robert Ferguson in a different handwriting as though he became a joint occupier about 1860. Later, about 1872 it appears that Robert becomes the sole occupier as on this page Marg. appears but is crossed out. In this time frame the name John Ferguson no longer appears. From 1880 on, the only Ferguson listed is Robert.
Hi Colin-
I have just been looking at the GV for these people. Just to clarify Margaret Ferguson is the occupier of Plot 10, Tullyboy, Co Cavan. The immediate Lessor is The Hon. Somerset Maxwell. Margaret has a house & buildings 10(a) which are valued at £4 - she also has a house 10(b)valued at 5 shillings (really a sod hut, given the value shown) this is let to John Briody. She does not let him any land.
I am unclear what you are trying to say about John Ferguson. Does he appear in the revision books in connection with this property?
I have just been looking at a very good document I have about GV's. It does say a woman often has 'widow' appended to their name if they are widowed.
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I agree California Dreamin
Sometimes people see Lessor and presume the person owned the land and was renting it out.
A lot of the cases that I have come across (rural areas) is of someone subletting a part of the land that they themselves were only leasing.
It was sometimes to another family member, it was sometimes to a labourer working on the land, sometimes it was to the likes of a shepherd who was tending livestock on the land.
Tara
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HA
Just another thought, could the Margaret have been the MOTHER of either of the Johns ?
Tara
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Hi Tara -
Yes, exactly I think John Briody is a cottier who is helping on the land. It seems quite a bit portion of land.
I am just a little unclear how John who has land in Ballymachugh(?) should be connected to land in Tullyboy. So if Colin could clarify this it would help. It could be Margaret is the mother then land is then handed onto John. As you have pointed out it could be cousins or other family members.
But with respect to Colin I think he needs to interpret the GV carefully he may get some further details. It is this bit here The valuation records of the Electoral Divison of Ballymachugh, parish of Kilbride 1857-1930 lists John Ferguson as occupier of map references 1 and 7 on a page that appears dated 1862. Do you mean the Griffiths? Revisions books or what?
Colin - have you looked at earlier tithe records also?
CD
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Hi CD
It would appear through family folklore of Colin's that he has two Great Grandparents whom are cousins and is trying to work out the connection.
The GV is NOT the way to do it though, in my opinion.
I shall wait for Colin to get back to clarify what help he exactly needs ;D
Tara
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Hi Tara
Good idea as he seems to have signed off now.
I have just unravelled a similar problem myself (hence my interest :) ) I used everything Civil Reg (where it existed), parish registers, tithe records, GV, revision books. Also, parish details of other local family members. It has worked but takes time.
CD
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Yup,
GV is NOT for the fainthearted as there can be a lot of ways to translate the information on it.
I spent a LOT of time on GV with my hubbies farming ancestors when I started out CONVINCED that there were a LOT of people in the same townland with the same name.
HA, turned out it was the one person leasing different plots of land.
Oh I can laugh about it now ~ at the time it gave me a lot of headaches ;D
Tara
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Hi,
I had the same problem - not just in one townland but in three neighbouring townlands.
Regards
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Me too Kingskerswell
There were 5 brothers whom leased 2 plots of land EACH in two different townlands, then they went on to jointly lease another plot of land in a further townland.
I thought the general area was teaming with the Surname but NO it was just 5 enterprising brothers ;D
Tara
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Hi Colin,
I've read a good portion of your blog.
HA I'm going to 'bow down' out of trying to help you with this one.
You have gone into SUPER detail here :
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~colin/Ancestors/Ferguson/index.htm
I'm afraid though that I am having trouble in following what appears to be this family appearing in quite a few counties in Ireland and abroad ~ the double appearance of the same surname is making it very tricky to extract the two branches.
I wish you well though on your journey !
Tara
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Hi Tara,
Thanks, I knew nothing about the Petty Session records. Yes, that is my site. For completeness sake I've attached a snippet from the valuation records I was looking at. One thing I hadn't noticed before is the tiny "dec'd" next to John Ferguson's name in the observation column. The chicken scratches are unclear but I suppose they were made in 1862.
Colin
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Hi Colin
If I were you I would be looking at all of the revision books and having a look at any changes over the years. Revisions were done approx every 10 yrs but this did vary. Any changes of tax or tenancy were noted at this time.
The notation on this document is quite interesting it reads something like: James Millan (?) claims to be ??? instead of M????? or ????? John Ferguson for Rob Ferguson for 1862 John Ferguson dec.
So really you need to find out more.
At the beginning James McClenn jun is crossed out and John Ferguson written above showing a xfer of tenancy.
I would also be looking at the estate of The Hon. Somerset Maxwell. For example:
http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_077926
All the GV information, revision book info + dates, any parish or Civil reg information should give you a better idea of family connections.
Good luck
CD
Note: There is a James Mullen listed on the GV on Plot 3 in Tullyboy - so perhaps this is the man disputing the claim of Ferguson?
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CD,
Good advice. I looked at all the revisions about 10 years ago and will re-examine them, they are on LDS Film.
The James McClenn jun you noted crossed out is James McClean Jun. I think he is the brother of Arthur McClean who is also one of my ancestors.
Thanks,
Colin