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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: dmaxwell81 on Friday 15 May 15 01:32 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information on a Levi (in some trees he is called Levi Joseph Sawyer, but I don't know where the Joseph comes from) Sawyer, supposed to have been born in Burslem Staffordshire on 17 Mar 1825. I looked through what was available for this parish on familysearch, and while it showed some of his reputed siblings, nothing for him.
I found this old thread for what is supposed to be the same family:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=561525.0
There is a book mentioned in that thread, The Richard and Harriet Hopkins family, Empire Prairie pioneers, which covers what is supposed to be the same family, but Levi is only mentioned in passing.
There are a couple of records on Ancestry.com, "Seventy Quorum Membership, 1835–1846", and "Membership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1830-1848", which give Levi Sawyer and 1839 LDS baptism date, and also give his parents as Ralph Sawyer and Mary Winkle, but I cannot find the works that they base their information on (i.e. contemporary record of this parentage, although I do believe it is 99% likely).
Levi does seems to fit with this Wisconsin Sawyer family in the above book, but they are supposed to have immigrated in the early 1840s, so I don't know how Levi got baptized LDS in 1839, unless it was in England, but the book doesn't mention any Mormon connection. However, in looking at the history of LDS missionary work in England, the Staffordshire potters seem to have been early targets for conversion.
In the 1841 Census, in Burslem, there are a John and Joseph Sawyer living together. John's age roughly corresponds with John, son of Ralph, baptized in 1820, and the 'Joseph' is said to be about 15 in 1841, which is close to Levi's stated birth date of 1825. However, their occupations both seem to be called mining (tough to read), and not potters, and John appears in the household with his father Ralph in the 1841 census.
I have seen some mention online that he married an Elizabeth Bell in 1845 in Nauvoo IL, but I couldn't find a record of it. He did marry Rose Ann Ball in WI in 1851, and she appears with him in the 1855 Wisconsin State Census and later the Federal 1860 Census in Utah. I cannot find him in 1870 or 1880, but he does appear, as a widower, on the New Mexico 1885 Territorial census with his family, including my great-great-grandmother Rosa Belle, as well as his oldest son named Ralph - however, online trees have this son Ralph being born in 1851, and dying in 1856 or so, but the census clearly calls this Ralph Levi's son. His age is also off from the 1851 Ralph, and this young man does not appear in the 1860 census with Levi.
The Ralph Sawyer/Mary Winkle family also seems to have lived in Liverpool for a time.
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BAPTISMS
Zoar Chapel,
Burslem, Staffordshire
HUGH Sawyer, 6 Sept 1818 (birth 14 July 1818)
Parents RALPH/MARY, nee Winkle
Fathers Occp Potter
Notes; 1st child born to this family. Wife's Father's name Joseph WINKLE, Potter of Burslem, Staffs
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JOHN Sawyer, 6 Feb 1820 (birth 16 Jan 1820), same Church/details. Notes; 2nd Child
EDNA Sawyer, 26 Feb 1837 same Church
JOHN was Baptised twice;
6 Feb 1820, Hanley Methodist New Connexion Circuit, Hanley, Staffs
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HENRY, same place, 3 March 1822 (birth 12 Feb 1822)
All above on FreeREG
So submitted info on Mary Winkle is incorrect as they have her Parents as THOMAS/HANNAH and her born earlier than her Parents!
Appears to be Levi in 1841;
1841 Census
HO107/987/11/Burslem
Benjamin Weld, 50, Baker
Sarah Weld, 50
Mary Weld, 15
Benjamin Weld, 13
Henry Weld, 11
Lucy Morris, 15
Ann Daniel, 25
LEVII Lawyer, 15, Baker *****
Image is WILD and SAWYER
Benjamin/Sarah Wild do not appear to be related to Levi as Benjamin married Sarah WALKER 1820 (FreeREG)
Trish :)
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EDIT the Parents for Mary WINKLE Thomas/Hannah may be my mistake as I posted that on the earlier query you linked :-[
Mary WINKLE Baptised 17 Nov 1799, St John the Evangelist, Hanley, Staffs
Parents JOS/MARY
(FreeREG)
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Thanks, I missed the Levi 'Lawyer' one. I still can't figure out where in the heck the 'Joseph' comes from, yet. This family scattered widely because the father Ralph couldn't take care of all of his children, apparently. The mother immigrated, is living with son John in the 1850 census in WI, and died along with one of her daughters in St Louis (her grave is on FindAGrave), who was living there in the 1850 Census.
But again the issue I am having is what the early LDS index says (I emailed the professor who wrote it asking for details, since it doesn't seem to be available in book form) that he was baptized in Nauvoo IL in 1839 - which doesn't sound right. Then there is the marriage of Levi's that was supposed to happen in 1845, which I cannot find, though most early LDS marriages (of dubious legality as far as the government was concerned) are hard to find records for.
Yes, I noticed that many trees didn't pick up on that Mary Winkle wasn't the one baptized in Burslem. What other people also didn't pick up on is that Ralph and Mary resided in Liverpool for a few years - the names and ages correspond perfectly with known children of this same couple - Louisa was baptized at St James in Liverpool on 8 Nov 1829 and Rosannah follows on 20 Nov 1831. (Both girls immigrate to the US) I suspect the reason that Levi's baptism hasn't been found is because of the parents parish hopping - there is a gap in the middle 1820s. Their sojourn in Liverpool must have been a failure because they are back in Staffordshire by 1841.
That book I mentioned above about the Sawyer/Winkle family is full of errors (not just the 'birth date' of Mary Winkle) - Ralph Sawyer was not an only child, Ralph was baptized at nearby Hanley as 'Ralph Sayer' on 22 Sep 1799, and his brother Hugh follows on 6 Jun 1802.
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If Ralph and Mary were potters from Staffordshire living in Liverpool then it is quite likely that they were working at the Herculaneum factory at Toxteth Park which ran from 1796 - 1840. Almost the entire workforce were employed from the Staffordshire potteries, travelling to Liverpool by barge. When the factory closed in 1840 many of them returned to Staffordshire.
Details of the pottery are covered in "The Herculaneum Pottery -Liverpool's forgotten glory" by Peter Hyland
Extracts from the Lancashire parishes can be found here : http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
I have missing baptisms from ancestors that worked there. For though there was a chapel and many baptisims I believe that children born on the journey between Liverpool and Burslem may have been baptised along the way or else not baptised at all.
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If Ralph and Mary were potters from Staffordshire living in Liverpool then it is quite likely that they were working at the Herculaneum factory at Toxteth Park which ran from 1796 - 1840. Almost the entire workforce were employed from the Staffordshire potteries, travelling to Liverpool by barge. When the factory closed in 1840 many of them returned to Staffordshire.
Details of the pottery are covered in "The Herculaneum Pottery -Liverpool's forgotten glory" by Peter Hyland
Extracts from the Lancashire parishes can be found here : http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
I have missing baptisms from ancestors that worked there. For though there was a chapel and many baptisims I believe that children born on the journey between Liverpool and Burslem may have been baptised along the way or else not baptised at all.
Thank you for the information. That is definitely possible, but I now strongly believe that the missing Sawyer baptisms may have happened at Hanley parish. There is a huge gap in coverage Findmypast/Freereg for that parish between 1804 and about 1841. A few of the baptisms after that are on familysearch, but not many. Not just Levi's baptism is missing, but the other two middle children - Henry (the only child who came back and stayed in England) and Edwin, as well as the last child Harriet.
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If I get a chance to visit the archives this week I will have a look for you
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If I get a chance to visit the archives this week I will have a look for you
Thank you. There is another family I am investigating at Hanley; there are two families, both baptizing children there, Joseph Winkle and Mary. The only way I can tell the difference between them in the records is there occupations - one Joseph Winkle is a potter (this would be my Joseph) and the other is called a miner. The abstracts on Familysearch don't give the occupations, but I also don't know if the originals say them, either. I can give you dates for these children as well as the approximate birth date for the missing Sawyer children (i dont have abstracts for them).
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Yes if you give me the dates I will see what I can do.
Co-incidentally I have both Sawyers and Winkles in my family tree.
Samuel Winkle (1887 - 1947) married my great grand aunt Minnie Bourne in 1909. His father was Frank Winkle (1861) and he was one of seven children.
and
Samuel Sawyer (1823-1895) married my 4th great grand aunt Elizabeth Bourne in 1843. His father was John Sawyer (1789-1861)
All lived in Burslem
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Yes if you give me the dates I will see what I can do.
Co-incidentally I have both Sawyers and Winkles in my family tree.
Samuel Winkle (1887 - 1947) married my great grand aunt Minnie Bourne in 1909. His father was Frank Winkle (1861) and he was one of seven children.
and
Samuel Sawyer (1823-1895) married my 4th great grand aunt Elizabeth Bourne in 1843. His father was John Sawyer (1789-1861)
All lived in Burslem
Not sure how Samuel Sawyer links up with the rest of my Sawyers (if he does at all). Ralph Sawyer only had one sibling, Hugh, who doesn't seem to have survived though I've never found a burial record. Ralph and Hugh's father was another Ralph Sawyer, the only child that I have been able to positively link to John Sawyer (buried Burslem 1806) and his wife Mary (____) (buried Burslem 1800). There are several John Sawyer and Mary marriages but none very close to Burslem, so I am unsure which if any that John and Mary couple are.
My Joseph Winkle is probably the son of Joseph Winkle and Hannah Gibson, but I am still working on it.
Here are the Sawyer dates:
Henry Sawyer was born around 1823 (source: given age at burial, age in censuses)
Levi Sawyer was born around 1825 (source: census of 1841, US federal census of 1860)
Edwin Sawyer was born around 1826 or 1827 (source: census of 1841, US federal census of 1860)
Harriet Sawyer was born around early 1841 (called one month old in 1841 census, claims a Feb 1841 birth date in 1900 US federal census)
Winkle. These dates come from FamilySearch and are not on freereg.:
19 Apr 1812 Thomas at Hanley
28 Nov 1813 William at Hanley
8 Oct 1815 Elizabeth at Hanley
I have been able to sort out the Winkle children who were baptized at Burslem, because it helpfully gives the occupation of the father. Also the abode of the parents would help, as my Joseph Winkle's abode is usually given as Cobridge, while the other couple is usually given as Scotia or Burslem.
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Nothing much to report I'm afraid. :-(
I ran out of time to check the Winkles (Thomas, William, Elizabeth) I was checking Burslem parish instead of St John's Hanley for them so they could well still be in there.
I looked at records for:
St John's Burslem 1819 - 1828 and 1838 - 1841
St Peter's Stoke 1820 - 1825
St John's Hanley 1816 - 1827
Wolstanton 1815 - 1825
There were no Sawyer records at all in Stoke, Hanley and Wolstanton (or Winkles for the periods I looked in)
In St John's Burslem there were
30 April 1820 Hart. (Harriett?) D of Ann Winkle, Burslem, spinster
19 Sept 1820 Enoch son of Saml & Sarah Sawyer, Sneyd Green, f. collier
25 Oct 1820 Ellen d of Joseph & Mary Winkle, Cobridge, f. potter
9 June 1822 John son of John & Ellen Winkle, Cobridge, f. potter
30 June 1822 Harriet d of Ann Winckle, Burslem, Spinster
30 May 1824 George son of Hannah Sawyer, Sneyd Green, Spinster
6 Aug 1826 William son of Jho & Maria Winkle, Dale Hall, f. potter
9 March 1828 Aaron son of Thomas & Harriet Sawyer, Burslem, f. potter
and
19th April 1812 Ann d of Jesse & Elizabeth Winkle, High St Burslem.
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Nothing much to report I'm afraid. :-(
I ran out of time to check the Winkles (Thomas, William, Elizabeth) I was checking Burslem parish instead of St John's Hanley for them so they could well still be in there.
I looked at records for:
St John's Burslem 1819 - 1828 and 1838 - 1841
St Peter's Stoke 1820 - 1825
St John's Hanley 1816 - 1827
Wolstanton 1815 - 1825
There were no Sawyer records at all in Stoke, Hanley and Wolstanton (or Winkles for the periods I looked in)
In St John's Burslem there were
30 April 1820 Hart. (Harriett?) D of Ann Winkle, Burslem, spinster
19 Sept 1820 Enoch son of Saml & Sarah Sawyer, Sneyd Green, f. collier
25 Oct 1820 Ellen d of Joseph & Mary Winkle, Cobridge, f. potter
9 June 1822 John son of John & Ellen Winkle, Cobridge, f. potter
30 June 1822 Harriet d of Ann Winckle, Burslem, Spinster
30 May 1824 George son of Hannah Sawyer, Sneyd Green, Spinster
6 Aug 1826 William son of Jho & Maria Winkle, Dale Hall, f. potter
9 March 1828 Aaron son of Thomas & Harriet Sawyer, Burslem, f. potter
and
19th April 1812 Ann d of Jesse & Elizabeth Winkle, High St Burslem.
Thank you for taking the time to look.
Yes, the ones that I was mainly wanting to see (for Winkle) were actually in that 1811-1814 period, sadly. As I said, I know of them from familysearch's index only. They could belong to either Joseph and Mary Winkle couple, but I was especially curious about the son William, since I could trace him a ways but I dont know whose son he is.
I had already completely checked Burslem (it's complete books are on Findmypast) which is how I knew about the occupational differences between those 2 couples, at least in their records. I had hoped the same for Hanley, though I have no idea.
That is sad to hear about Sawyer. But my understanding is that Findmypast is actually missing a number of Staffordshire parishes, so perhaps they were done on the way to Liverpool, where we know Ralph and Mary Sawyer were living at least in the late 1820s. But then there is also the final child Harriet's missing baptism too, so now I am not sure.
Research for another day. Findmypast has said that eventually their Staffordshire parishes, now using the FHL microfilms, will use color scans (always better), so perhaps they will be more complete.
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I will check on the Winkles if I get a chance to call on the archives again (possibly this weekend if they are open)
some of the Liverpool records are also missing on line but a visit to Liverpool is a bit more difficult for me
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I will check on the Winkles if I get a chance to call on the archives again (possibly this weekend if they are open)
some of the Liverpool records are also missing on line but a visit to Liverpool is a bit more difficult for me
Yes, Liverpool is only in snippets, I wouldn't have even asked there.
Speaking of missing records, the worst for my tree, by far, is Gloucester and the sheer drought of records available for it. It seems like very little is available, and I can do almost nothing for my line in there.
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I can visit the archives tomorrow dinner time so I will have a look for those Winkles for you
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Well..... The good news first.
Hanley St John's Church
19th April 1812 Thomas son of Joseph & Mary Winkle, Cobridge. born 23 March 1812
That is the best of the entries
William Winkle of your date 28 Nov 1813 could not be found. But the parish entries were of such poor quality that it was quite impossible to tell nor even possible to make a guess at the entry. Nothing even looked vaguely like Winkle or William
8 Oct 1815? Elizabeth dau of Joseph & Mary W(hard to read), Cobridge, f. Potter
another obscure entry with a hard to read almost blank surname, only the Christian names & location were visible (just)
A second entry for 9 Oct 1816? read Elizabeth William & Mary Wincle or Wardle (hard to say) Shelton, f. Grocer
The year details were missing from both fiches on the last two and it was only by Knowing that 1815 & 1816 were on the fiche and working back that I was able to make an estimate at the year.
In many places the parish records were virtually blank pages with only the faintest trace to indicate the presence of writing.
So sorry I couldn't be more useful
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Well..... The good news first.
Hanley St John's Church
19th April 1812 Thomas son of Joseph & Mary Winkle, Cobridge. born 23 March 1812
That is the best of the entries
William Winkle of your date 28 Nov 1813 could not be found. But the parish entries were of such poor quality that it was quite impossible to tell nor even possible to make a guess at the entry. Nothing even looked vaguely like Winkle or William
8 Oct 1815? Elizabeth dau of Joseph & Mary W(hard to read), Cobridge, f. Potter
another obscure entry with a hard to read almost blank surname, only the Christian names & location were visible (just)
A second entry for 9 Oct 1816? read Elizabeth William & Mary Wincle or Wardle (hard to say) Shelton, f. Grocer
The year details were missing from both fiches on the last two and it was only by Knowing that 1815 & 1816 were on the fiche and working back that I was able to make an estimate at the year.
In many places the parish records were virtually blank pages with only the faintest trace to indicate the presence of writing.
So sorry I couldn't be more useful
That's alright, you did what you could.
That the Elizabeth done on 8 Nov 1815 is called daughter of Joseph and Mary of Cobridge Potter creates an interesting problem. A little over a month before (25 Sep 1815) , Joseph and Mary Winkle of Cobridge Potter had a daughter Elizabeth baptized at Burslem. I did, however, see some double baptisms for 2 of the Sawyer children (Hugh and John), the sons of Mary Winkle Sawyer, though all 4 of these baptisms were recorded at Non-Conformist churches.
William is listed just on FamilySearch. There is a William Winkle born circa 1813 living with one of these widow Mary Winkles in the 1841 (I think) census. This is the entry on FS:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NG3Y-1MK
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FS entry for William "could" be right but I am afraid that with the fiche records at Hanley archives being so poor I could not confirm or deny it. It would be interesting if FS had access to better fiches or if they were just being "creative" with what was available?
As for Elizabeth. It is possible that it is a copy of the Burslem baptism (it comes under Christenings in the Hanley register). It is a shame that the Hanley registers are so illegible
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Hello,
I am trying to research my lost family on my fathers side.
My father was Thomas Edward Smith,
His mother was Sarah Elizabeth Sawyer, daughter of Samuel Sawyer and Sarah Anne Rushton.
Samuel Sawyer was the son of Thomas Sawyer and grandson of William Sawyer. I don't know if my family were living in burslem or Norton in the moors, there seem to be many Sawyers !
I would be very grateful if someone could help me and indeed if any one of you is related to me I will be very happy to meet you!!
Thanks in advance.