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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: Johncarruth on Thursday 14 May 15 19:51 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me to trace my Ancestor ,Alexander Carruth, a Cooper by trade living on Causeyside in Paisley. He disappears from the records of Paisley & Scotland ,some time between the birth of his daughter Christina in 1852 when he was aged about 31 years of age and the 1861 Census when his wife, Helen (or Ellen) is shown as Head of Household and Christina is not shown. Did he, like a lot of Paisley working men, leave Paisley &Scotland to search for work in other Lands? Does anyone if there are any details listed of men who took ship from West of Scotland ports to Canada, U.S.A. or Australasia between 1852 and 1861 ?
I also have another Brick wall concerning Alexander Carruth which is that, the 1841 Census gives his age as 20, the same as his wife, but I can find no O.P.R entry for his birth around 1818/1822. There is a family in Paisley that may well be his parents (William & Agnes Carruth) but I cannot make the link without an O.P.R. birth entry showing his parents. Does anyone know of any missing Parish records for Paisley Abbey Ward for the period 1818/1822 ?
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Hi John
Welcome to RootsChat :)
First of all, the easy one! The 1841 census is the most limited in terms of information. The enumerators were instructed to record the ages of those over 15 years the nearest 5 years. Children under 15 years were supposed to show with their actual age. Overall, ages in 1841 are the most unrealiable overall (and census ages are a very often unreliable in general unfortunately).
A couple of other points to note from 1841, specific birth places were not noted. You were either born in the county the census was being recorded or you were not, in which case you simply showed as born outside of the County (specifically for Scottish births - Irish and English births would be recorded different, in general terms also).
The final point is that unlike later censuses too, relationships within the household were not shown/recorded.
Monica
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Have you got Helen, his wife's maiden name?
How have you followed Helen and any children from their marriage?
The 1861 census that you mention, did Helen showed as married or widowed>
Monica :)
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Does anyone know of any missing Parish records for Paisley Abbey Ward for the period 1818/1822 ?
Before the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855, you are reliant on Old Parish Registers (Established Church of Scotland - Presbyterian) available on Scotlands People. Also now Roman Catholic Records that remain are available to view on the same site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Be aware that only about a third of events were recorded pre 1855, for all sorts of reasons. Also, many registers have been lost or destroyed over time.
I cannot see any marriage/banns for Alexander and Helen, nor any children born to them using their names on https://familysearch.org/search. This may be indicative of problems find records for them pre 1855 :-\ There may, however, be entries showing on Scotlands People.
What do you have on any children or Helen?
Monica
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You mentioned 1851 and the 1861 census. Just adding this for background:
1861:
Helen Carruth/ Smith 42 b. Paisley
John Carruth 17
Alexander Carruth 15
Christina Carruth 9....Christina is shown, you thought not?
Elizabeth Smith 71 mother b. Paisley
Catherine McAllum 20
Address: 62 Canal St, Paisley High Church
Monica
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Thank you for your help, Monika. I actually found the Baptism of Helen (a.k.a. Ellen & (later), Janet ?)in 1820, Thornleigh Park,Paisley. Her Maiden name was Smith and Smith was the common middle name for girls in the family for the next 3 generations. Her Mother was Elisabeth Smith and that name was also used as a first name for 3 generations, too. On the 1861 Census, Helen is shown with a W against her name, presumably Widow, but the Enumerator has also put a(almost vertical) cross through that as he has with a couple of other such entries on that page. Helen died in 1897 & was buried in the family grave of her son(a couple of his children had died before her !)named as Janet Smith, but the age, matched exactly.
John.
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Hi Monika. I found their marriage Banns(from Scotlands People)&confirmed marriage,at the Independent church? at an early stage of my research & thought that that was a good start but then I hit the brick wall(No parents shown, on the Banns.) John.
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Hi John
...confirmed marriage,at the Independent church?
I have seen a reference to the Scots Old Independent Church in Paisley. May this is the ref you have there on the banns?
I hit the brick wall(No parents shown, on the Banns.) John.
Apart from the fact it seems to be from what you say a Banns entry rather that the marriage entry on the OPRs, not sure you would get any extra info.
Before the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855, if you are lucky to find a marriage entry in the OPRs, the best it can normally be is at most the name of the bride's father. Mostly, it will be a simple one liner with name of groom and bride :-\
Have you found any christening entries for the children? Sometimes you get clues to possible family names from the names of the sponsors.
Also, did Helen show as married or widowed in 1861? Did she die in Scotland? If so what did it say re parents and husband Alexander?
Monica
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Thanks again, Monica. Good idea about looking at the Baptisms of the children to see if they give any other info. I will try to find them on Scotlands people !I will try to get the Baptism of my Great Grandpa, John.(Helens first Son).
I got the parents of Helen ,as her Baptism came up easily, for some reason.
Thanks again. John
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Also, did Helen show as married or widowed in 1861? Did she die in Scotland? If so what did it say re parents and husband Alexander?
;) Any detail on these questions? Just helps to have as much as you have to be able for us to try to help further...
Monica :)
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Hello Monica & John :)
Again, for background, here is the 1851 census and family search's ref for the Alexander & Helen's marriage:
Alexander Carruth married Helen Smith 1841 Renfrewshire
1851 census – 71 Causeway St, Paisley South
Alexr Curuth / 32 / cooper employing 1 Jan (journeyman?) & 2 Apprentices / Paisley
Ellen Curuth / 31 / Paisley
Elizabeth Curuth / 9 / Paisley
John Curuth / 7 / Paisley
Alexander Curuth / 5 / Paisley
Alexander also has entries in the Renfrewshire Directories but these cease after the 1851 - 1852 edition.
http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=85949912&mode=transcription
http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=85952221&mode=transcription
http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=85245448&mode=transcription
brigau
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Thank you again, Monica & Brigau ! Amazing to find that on the 1851 Census,Alexander was employing 1 Journeyman & 2 Apprentices in 1852, the year that he disappears ! He had built up quite a business. What happened ?? I didn't get half of that info on my search of the 1851 Census . That info seems to lead to the conclusion that he didn't leave Paisley to seek work !
Monica, On the 1861 Census,Ellen is shown as Head, with a W , crossed through with an almost vertical line, against her name. Was Alexander the victim of the Cholera outbreaks which hit Paisley ? I think that you are right, I should have another look at what happens to the children on Scotlands People when I get enough free time !
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Hello John,
I don't think Alexander left his family, I think he just died.
Monica may have a different take on the apparent crossing out of the W on the census you mention, but those marks appear everywhere, not just Scotland. My understanding is that after completion the census returns were used to work out local demographics, i.e. how many children under a certain age; how many widows, orphans, self employed etc. These were ticked off the returns as they were being counted so the clerks knew where they were up to. But I may be wrong.
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Br1gau, you are very experienced on all this stuff! I woul agree with all you mention above :)
John, Helen shows as a widow in 1861 for what you have. Likely he died pre 1855 if you haven't been able to find a death reg post 1855 :-\ Last child showing in 1861, from earlier is Christina born c. 1851-2. Maybe Alexander died between 1851-54?
Monica
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I imagine that the census information is collected and collated today for exactly the same reasons but I don't imagine the clerks use scratchy black pens these days. Again, I could be wrong ;)
John, Elizabeth Carruth only appears in the 1851 census, then aged 9. This reference from scotland's people may explain why:
Elizabeth Carruth, recorded age of 20, mother’s maiden name Smith, died Paisley 1861
brigau
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Br1gau, I wonder if Elizabeth died just after the 1861 census? I thought she showed on the 1861 census with family, although on the transcript I am looking at she shows as 9 rather than 19 maybe if she likely died 1861 as you found?
You mentioned 1851 and the 1861 census. Just adding this for background:
1861:
Helen Carruth/ Smith 42 b. Paisley
John Carruth 17
Alexander Carruth 15
Christina Carruth 9....Christina is shown, you thought not?
Elizabeth Smith 71 mother b. Paisley
Catherine McAllum 20
Address: 62 Canal St, Paisley High Church
Monica :)
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1851 census – 71 Causeway St, Paisley South
Alexr Curuth / 32 / cooper employing 1 Jan (journeyman?) & 2 Apprentices / Paisley
Ellen Curuth / 31 / Paisley
Elizabeth Curuth / 9 / Paisley
John Curuth / 7 / Paisley
Alexander Curuth / 5 / Paisley
Ah, I'm seeing Elizabeth who was 9 in 1851 and Catherine who was 9 in 1861
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... and the 1861 Census when his wife, Helen (or Ellen) is shown as Head of Household and Christina is not shown.
Sorry, Br1gau ;) Being slopply and daft me. Elizabeth is not Catherine, and that is who I was referring to! You are right, Elizabeth (first born?) looks to have died in 1861.
John, either her death cert or the census image for the family in 1861 would give you further info on the family and likely throw up further clues re father/husband.
Monica
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Hi: I have the marriage certificate of Helen Smith on Nov 6, 1857, to James Reid, widower, both of Paisley. James is my great-grandfather. The marriage record says Helen is the daughter of John Smith and Elizabeth Taylor. Helen is listed as a widow but her married name not given. Many decades ago, my aunt wrote in her genealogy notes that Helen Smith was the Widow Carruth. We always assumed that Helen died shortly after the marriage because sometime in the early 1860s, James travelled to the United States and Canada where he married my great-grandmother in 1866 and raised a family of 5. I am very surprised to see that Helen lived a long life. Before finding this post, I did see that she was in the 1861 census under the surname Carruth ... not Reid. I am very interested in ANY information on Helen and her children. I found a John Carruth who married Elizabeth Paterson and Margaret Fuller ... I believe this is Helen's son, John. Looking forward to hearing from you!