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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: keithd on Friday 08 July 05 01:13 BST (UK)
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Hi
Does anyone have or can take a photo of St Vigeans for me. My GGG grandparents WILLIAM CLARK and MARGARET LUMGAIR Lived in 7 Russell St. Would love a snap of the house!
cheers
Keith
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I have a photo of St. Vigeans Church I can send e-mail.
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A photo of St Vigeans Church would be great thank you. My email * Do you live there?
regards
Keith
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We recently visited Arbroath and I have over a dozen photos of St Vigeans and environs that I can send you on Shutterfly.com ...NoreenO
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Keith....I am new to this site & you may have a personal reply from already.
There is no Russell St in St Vigeans....it is a one street village.
However there is a Russell St in Arbroath. Is this the one you are looking for? If so I can help as I live in the area. However Russell St was redeveloped a little while ago but the building may still be there. Let me know
Alex
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Hi Alex
Thanks for your e mail. THe Russell St must be Arbroath in that case althoough the census staes St Vigeans. Would love to see if you can find 7 Russell St
cheers
Keith
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Hi:
If you are going pic taking in Arbroath, could you check out 50 Helens Street - hm maybe it is not there. Census says 50 Helen St. St. Vigeans, Fofar(Angus) - 1881 census data. I hv a pic of St. Vigeans Church - found on line. Thx
Lauraine (Canada).
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THe Russell St must be Arbroath in that case althoough the census staes St Vigeans.
Quite a bit of the town of Arbroath spilled over into the boundaries of the (originally separate) parish of St Vigeans. So Russell Street could easily be in both the town of Arbroath and the parish of St Vigeans, without being in the village of St Vigeans.
If you go to www.streetmap.co.uk and search for Russell Street you can see where it is.
HTH
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I will try to do both places tomorrow....sorry about the delay.
Helen St & Russell St have both been redeveloped and new houses built ! It will still give you an idea of what the area looks like now.
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Dear Luckychirpy:
:D You are just so kind. If there is anything I can help you out with in Manitoba, Canada, please ask - no promises, but would do my best. Do you know if there are any old photos in the archives of the Helen Street Area? Cheers,
Lauraine
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I hope this works....lets see
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Dear Alex:
Not sure how to answer your last mssg so am doing it here.
I am not sure if any of the family are buried there. Am specifically looking for graves of Isobelle (Isobella) SHAND NICOL and Alexander NICOL her husband. Alexander remarried an Ann KENNEDY, but know she is buried in Aurora, Illinois along with her son John Todd NICOL. As Alexander is not buried with them, am wondering if he died in Forfar, at 50 Helen Street.
Also looking in this family for a Brown NICOL & Betsy Ann NICOL - neither found on the 1881 census in Alexander NICOL Household Other missing members for that census are accounted for. Thank you again for the great pics.
Lauraine
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Sorry to butt in but could anyone tell me where Strathmore Villas, St Vigeans Forfar were, if they are still standing or renamed or even knocked down?
Lex
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Hi Forfarian:
;D ;D I figured out how to get the Arbroath photos saved into my photoshop program. All you do is left click blue jpg at bottom and save. Just a slow learner - now to see if can figure how to post old photo. ::) Thx again
Lauraine
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Lauraine,
Do you have any dates for the relatives you mentioned in your previous messages? I have a book of some memorial inscriptions around Angus but pre 1855 if that is anywhere near the time. I will have a look if you can give more details.
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Dear Alex:
Not sure how to answer your last mssg so am doing it here.
I am not sure if any of the family are buried there. Am specifically looking for graves of Isobelle (Isobella) SHAND NICOL and Alexander NICOL her husband. Alexander remarried an Ann KENNEDY, but know she is buried in Aurora, Illinois along with her son John Todd NICOL. As Alexander is not buried with them, am wondering if he died in Forfar, at 50 Helen Street.
Also looking in this family for a Brown NICOL & Betsy Ann NICOL - neither found on the 1881 census in Alexander NICOL Household Other missing members for that census are accounted for. Thank you again for the great pics.
Lauraine
Hi there....
I'm not sure if this is of any significance...but, my grt grt grandmother was an Ann Nicol Brown, the daughter of William Brown and Margaret Ramsay....she was b. 22Jan1855, in Forfar.....she also went on to name one of her sons, Alexander after marrying John Walker b. Dec 1844 in ST. Vigean's.....wonder if maybe the Brown family and the Nicol family were friends or neighbours?
All the Best
Wendy
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Hi Wendy:
It is very possible they were neighbors or friends. Would need to look at census data to see if they were in the same vacinity. Brown was a male and hv now learned both died as children. It does appear that using surnames in children's given names was done. Have an g. uncle who was named John Carnegie Hird - the Carnegies lived nearby. Sometimes surnames in a given name designate a grandmothers or mother's maiden name. Am sure they followed these two practises just to confuse descendants. ::)
Lauraine
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Hi Lauraine....
Yes I'm quite familiar with Maternal family surnames being used as second givens....the majority of my "Irish" family is like that .... I know that Nichol is not a family name...as Ann's mother's maiden name was Ramsay, and her grandmother's maiden name was Clark. Just a thot ... thanks for your reply.
All the best
Wendy
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Hi: :)
Just noted your searching the surnameBarry/Barrie in Forfar (Angus). We have a Bryce Barrie m. David Nicol 1812 St, Vigneans. Bryce's parents were Patrick or Peter Barrie & Margaret Stroner. Any connection?
Lauraine
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Hi Again...
I have a Janet Barrie who married Alexander Brown/Broun...in1818 Forfar, they were the Parents of Ann Nichol Brown's father....William. I hav'nt been working on this side of late...been concentrating more on the Irish side, The Thompson's (Londonderry) and the Close's(Belfast).
All the best
Wendy
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Do you have the parents for Janet Barrie? Bryce Barrie was b 1792 - wonder if they cud be sisters or cousins? Like you hv been away from the Nicol/Barrie connections over the summer. Cousin gave me new info & photos for my Welsh Coombs family so try to organize that. Off-line most much of the summer. Good hunting. Cheers
Lauraine
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Hi ya...
Ooooh, I know it's so exciting to get new information...I have just managed contact with a grt grandaughter to my grt grandfathers sister, as well as a son of my granda's uncle...I'm anxiously awaiting information from them....to see where it leads...For Janet Barrie b. 1790....have her parents listed as Andrew Barrie and a Barbara Cownie...but have also found her listed as Barbara Kavan??? but nothing further....does that ring any bells?
All the Best
Wendy
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Hi
Many of my ancestors came from St Vigeans. If possible I could you send me a copy of the church to *
Thanks
allan
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Hi Allan:
I think the photo of the churh came from "Google" and will forward. The photo of the gravestones came from a relative in UK and will send them as well. Apparently the graveyard was "tidied up" and the stones placed in rows so they do not designate actual graves? :)
Lauraine
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I always find this site with old photos of mainly Dundee area and some other parts of Angus, very helpful. This link will take you to a picture of St Vigeans church, but you can search the site for many others. (http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/photodb/wc3137.htm)
Hope this is of help to some of you.
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Hi
Does anyone have or can take a photo of St Vigeans for me. My GGG grandparents WILLIAM CLARK and MARGARET LUMGAIR Lived in 7 Russell St. Would love a snap of the house!
cheers
Keith
Hi KeithD , have a look at Ken Cargills site http://www.pbase.com/kgc/st_vigeans_arbroath
some very evocative images of St Vigeans & Arbroath :)
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My grandfather James Smith was born at 3 Russell St. in 1871. Did anyone have ancestors there at that time? His parents were James and Ann Souter Smith.
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There are several photographs here http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NO6342 and in adjacent squares of Arbroath and St Vigeans
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Lauraine:
I am also in Canada and have relatives from Arbroath. I visited there, recently, and took some pictures of various streets but I could see that things had dramatically changed from the street numbers I had from census data. I could not find 62 Helen Street but have attached a picture of the street name, below. I am also trying to research an Alexander Nicol from Arbroath, although I think he may have lived on Russel Street. I have found one entry in census for 1871 but have not seen the image, yet. Have you seen that one and is it on Helen Street? If so, maybe I do not need to pay to open it. I know very little about this Alexander Nicol as he was the father of an illegitimate child born in 1881 (I have the extract on this one which shows Russel Street but no other data) and maybe in 1873 (I am considering ordering this extract to see if the father was the same). The mother never married. It would be quite a coincidence if your Alexander Nicol is the same.
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Hello Luckychirpy,
I am researching the same line from Arbroath, St Vigeans, Auchmithie...names Beattie, Eaton, Spink, Smith, Cargill. Would love to compare notes.
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Hello Jamielees,
My earliest Beattie is Alexander b1748 married to Matilda.
My earliest Smith is Catherine b 1796
My earliest Spink is Jane b 1806
My earliest Eaton is David b 1806.
Cargills, I do not have any information on bu they figure in my wifes' side of the family.
I don't know if you are aware but the names we have are very common in Auchmithie and surrounding area.
Good to hear from you and hope there is some connection.
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Hello Luckychirpy,
Yes I am aware of the names and that there were 5 main names that settled the area.I am related to all of these folks in one big ball of wax. It's a wonder I don't have 2 heads!
I have David SMITH married Margaret SWANKIE in 1772 Saint Vigneans.
(My 6x great grandparents). Note: Margaret's mother was a SPINK.
Their son... (My 5x great grandparents)
James SMITH married Margaret SPINK (don't have date).
Their son... (My 4x great grandparents)
William SMITH married Margaret SWANKIE in 1820 Saint Vigneans.
Their son... (My 3x great grandparents)
Peter SMITH married Jane SMITH in 1870 Arbroath and then Isabelle SWANKIE in Arbroath (no date).
Their son... (My 2x great grandparents)
Peter SMITH (bi-name Pit Delaney) married Isabella YOUNG in 1879 Arbroath.
One of their daughters called Katherine married a Peter CARGILL. Peter's mother was a SMITH.
Their son Peter (bi-name Easy Pit) married a Isabella Smith Beattie.
Maybe we should start with comparing notes from today and work backwards. I have attached a photo. My 2x great grandmother is in the photo, Isabella YOUNG.
Looking forward to your reply.
Jamie Lees
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Have you seen this site? It has the names you are interested in and more
www.spinkancestors.com
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This link does not work.
Jamie
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This link does not work.
It worked when I clicked on it just now.
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Thanks just tried it again and it worked. Think it had something to do with my work computer, as I was trying it there. Sometimes I can't get on to sites.
Looks very interesting!
Thanks,
Jamie
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That Auchmithie website, set up and run by Joy Spink, is very good, but be warned! - accessing her charts can freeze the screen on your computer, so that you have to shut it down then switch on again. That's what happens to me anyway, so now I steer clear of her charts.
I think everybody with Auchmithie ancestry is related to everybody else. I started off researching my SPINKS, then I discovered that I had SMITH and LAWSON as well, and then SWANKIE, and finally CARGILL too.
It's not generally known outside Fife, where I was brought up, that a lot of Auchmithie fisherfolk moved to Fife in Victorian times. My 2 x great-grandparents John SPINK and Janet "Jessie" SPINK moved to Crail, where their daughter Margaret SPINK married James "Pilot Jimmy" PEEBLES, a local fisherman and harbour pilot.
John SPINK was the son of David SPINK and Campbell SWANKIE. His wife Jessie SPINK was the daughter of another David SPINK and Janet "Jessie" LAWSON. This last David SPINK was drowned at sea and his widow later married Alexander BEATTIE.
I have too much information to post here, but can give more details of my family-tree if anyone's interested. Some of my ancestors have nice carved headstones in St. Vigean's churchyard,
Harry
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I would be interested in any information about the families who lived at Ethie Haven (New Haven of Ethie), just up the coast from Auchmithie. The surnames are the same - lots of Cargills and Lawsons, and a few Andersons, Blues, Duncans, Findlays, Gadies, Gauldies, Perts, Peterkins, Simpsons, Stephens, Swankies and Torns. No Spinks that I know of, however.
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Ethiehaven is in the parish of Inverkeilor. My Auchmithie ancestors included a couple called William SWANKIE and Margaret LAWSON, and Margaret was from Inverkeilor. I think she was the Margaret born there in 1767 to Thomas LAWSON, skipper in Newhaven of Ethie, and Isobel PETERKIN.
And I believe that William SWANKIE was the William born at Auchmithie in 1766 to John SWANKIE and Helen CARGILL.
Harry
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Ethiehaven is in the parish of Inverkeilor
Correct.
> My Auchmithie ancestors included a couple called William SWANKIE and
> Margaret LAWSON, and Margaret was from Inverkeilor. I think she was the
> Margaret born there in 1767 to Thomas LAWSON, skipper in Newhaven of
> Ethie, and Isobel PETERKIN.
Could be.
Unfortunately there were two Thomas Lawsons there at the same time - one married to Elspet Cargill and the other to Isabella Peterkin. I have been able to link some of the Ethie Haven families together because Isabella Lawson, daughter of Thomas and Elspet, lived until 1862. She married George Cargill, son of Robert Cargill, who lived until 1855. His death certificate doesn't name his mother, but I think she must have been Helen Pert.
However I cannot so far make the link between this family and Thomas and Isobel/Isabella or the remaining Lawson families.
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Talking of photos, here's one of the headstone, in St. Vigeans churchyard, of my 4 x great-grandparents John SPINK and Jannet SWANKIE of Auchmithie, who were married in 1773. My younger son is holding on to the stone. He's now over 30 so it wasn't taken yesterday.
Harry
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People who have posted on this thread, especially those searching ancestors from Auchmithie and St Vigeans, may like to visit the Auchmithie Roots Forum at http://www.invisionplus.net/forums/index.php?mforum=auchmithieroots&act=idx
The Forum is an information and discussion board on the genealogy of the families who originally hailed from Auchmithie, particularly the Spinks, Swankies and Cargills. Registration is required.
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> My Auchmithie ancestors included a couple called William SWANKIE and
> Margaret LAWSON, and Margaret was from Inverkeilor. I think she was the
> Margaret born there in 1767 to Thomas LAWSON, skipper in Newhaven of
> Ethie, and Isobel PETERKIN.
Could be.
Unfortunately there were two Thomas Lawsons there at the same time - one married to Elspet Cargill and the other to Isabella Peterkin. I have been able to link some of the Ethie Haven families together because Isabella Lawson, daughter of Thomas and Elspet, lived until 1862. She married George Cargill, son of Robert Cargill, who lived until 1855. His death certificate doesn't name his mother, but I think she must have been Helen Pert.
However I cannot so far make the link between this family and Thomas and Isobel/Isabella or the remaining Lawson families.
hello, I'm new to family history, but all my relatives seem to be from St Vigeans. On the Spink website mentioned above it says that William Swankie's wife Margaret Lawson was the daughter of John and Elizabeth Lawson - were there two William Swankie and Margaret Lawson families? Sorry if I'm being stupid.
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hello, I'm new to family history, but all my relatives seem to be from St Vigeans. On the Spink website mentioned above it says that William Swankie's wife Margaret Lawson was the daughter of John Lawson and Elizabeth Lawson - were there two William Swankie and Margaret Lawson families?
It's not impossible, but I don't think so. The eleven children listed for the couple(s) of this name seem to come along at pretty regular intervals of about two years, which suggests they are all one family.
There is obviously a question about Margaret Lawson's parentage - whether she was the one born at New Haven of Ethie n 1763 to John Lawson and Margaret Christie, or the one born there in 1767 to Thomas Lawson and Isabella Peterkin, or the one who was the daughter of John and Elizabeth Lawson.
The only piece of evidence I've seen one way or the other is pretty feeble, namely that William Swankie and Margaret Lawson do not seem to have named a child John, which I would have expected if Margaret's father's name had been John as well as William's. But on its own it's not enough to draw any conclusions from.
I have not seen the original baptism records of the children of William Swankie and Margaret Lawson. If they list the names of witnesses, there might be a clue there.
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Thanks very much for replying.
As you say it’s not really conclusive about naming children after parents, that doesn’t seem to follow any pattern in the Auchmithie research I’ve done so far, and in William Swankie and Margaret Lawson’s case they waited until child number 11 to name a daughter after William’s mother. The Margaret Lawson born in 1763 doesn’t seem likely as she would have been 78 in the 1841 census when Margaret gave her age as 70 (I know the ages in the census aren’t always accurate). I might email the spink website and see if they have any more info.
Thanks again.
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Try the Auchmithie Roots Forum as mentioned by Kev above. There are some very knowledgeable and helpful people there.
I agree with what you say about the naming of children in Auchmithie families not seeming to follow any logical pattern, particularly in the case of Wm. Swankie and Mgt. Lawson. They called two of their daughters Campbell (my ancestor) and McKay. What was that all about??
Compare this to the naming of children in, for example, my home county of Fife, where the children's names are usually a good guide to the names of grandparents, aunts and uncles. Especially among the fisherfolk. My father was the youngest of 10 children, comprising 8 boys and 2 girls, and from my study of the extended family I can see exactly where they all got their names from.
Harry
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Thanks for your reply, I'll email the spink ancestors website I think, their information seems pretty accurate from what I've researched so far.
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There's a bit of discussion going on regards Margaret Lawson on the Auchmithie Roots forum just now...http://www.invisionplus.net/forums/index.php?mforum=auchmithieroots&act=idx
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looking for some help from anyone on the below?
just starting out doing a family tree and got to finding out my great grandmother Isabella Cargill resided at 61 Auchmithie when she married my great grandfather Charles Coupar Eaton.
Her mother and father were John and Maggie Cargill (nee Spink) and she may have possibly had a brother called Harry? wondered if you could provide any further info on what kind of life they led, would they have had to continue the tradition of the fisher wedding (1915) and had to possibly travel to chase the herring in England, possibly before she was married?
my great grandmother was listed as an outworker when she got married, any ideas what this may have involved in Auchmithie? on looking up the word it mentions cotton working or working the fields or working from home??
appreciate any help you could possibly provide
many thanks
From Eric
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Hello Eric. I strongly advise you to join the Auchmithie Roots forum mentioned above by Kev61, where you will find separate threads for the Spink, Swankie, Cargill and Eaton surnames as well as very useful transcripts of the various censuses. And lots of distant cousins among the people who post there!
I can tell you that Isabella Ritchie Cargill who married Charles Coupar Eaton was born in 1891, the illegitimate daughter of Margaret Spink, who however married the girl's father John Cargill in 1895. Margaret Spink and her siblings were 2nd cousins of my own great-grandmother, another Margaret Spink.
You are related to what is probably the best-known of all Spink families, as they produced Robert Ritchie Spink, founder of the fish-merchants R.R. Spink whose products can be found in the best supermarkets, as well as the royal kitchens, and this man was also Provost of Arbroath in his time.
If you search for 61 Auchmithie in the 1891 census on Auchmithie Roots, you will find Henry Spink and his wife Isabella Ritchie living there with their children Margaret (your ancestor), Isabella, Henry and Robert (aged 6). This Robert Spink married an Elizabeth Cargill, and they were the parents of the abovementioned Robert Ritchie Spink, who married Euphemia Carstairs Brown of Anstruther in Fife.
Harry
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Hi Harry and hello Eric. Just to let you know that the Auchmithie Roots forum has now moved, due to technical difficulties to http://www.auchmithieroots.freeforums.org. Eric, I have sent you the link by email.
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Eric, I've done some further research on your family with the help of Scotlandspeople. Auchmithie was such a small inbred community that anyone with ancestors from there can find links to just about every other family, and I've found a few links between your family and mine. I'm afraid it gets complicated!
As you know, your Isabella Cargill who married Charles Coupar Eaton in 1915 was the daughter of John Cargill and Margaret Spink, married in 1895. Charles was born in 1890 to David Eaton and Isabella Cargill, who were married in 1881. David was the son of Robert Eaton and Margaret Coull; Isabella was the daughter of Robert Cargill and Agnes Swankie.
At the time of David Eaton and Isabella Cargill's marriage in 1881, Isabella was actually a widow, called Isabella Shepherd. She married widower David Shepherd in 1873 (he had married a Margaret Cargill, daughter of James Cargill and Ann Spink) in 1871, and obviously she died soon thereafter.
Five years later in 1876, David Shepherd was "Drowned by the running down of an open boat. Body not found". This happened "Eight miles south-east of the Red head off the parish of Inverkeilor".
The Register of Corrected Entries changes David's age from 30 to 31, and adds, of his place of death, "In the Sea about five miles in a northerly direction from the Bed(?) Rock and nine miles from the shore at Auchmithie".
I'm not sure yet, but I think these Eatons go back to a family that was intermarried with my Spinks in the early 1800s.
Harry
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place of death, "In the Sea about five miles in a northerly direction from the Bed(?) Rock and nine miles from the shore at Auchmithie".
Probably Bell Rock. This is a dangerous skerry with a famous lighthouse, about 12 miles offshore from Arbroath. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Rock_Lighthouse
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Yes, of course it's the Bell Rock, I should have seen that. Thanks!
I was correct in my supposition (see above) that the Eaton family under discussion go back to the Thomas Eaton drowned in 1814 along with his three Spink brothers-in-law, incl. my 3 x great-grandfather David Spink.
The David Eaton who married Isabella Cargill in 1881 was the son of Robert Eaton and Margaret Coull (from Ferryden), who were married in 1855.
Robert Eaton was the son of David Eaton and Jane Spink.
David Eaton was the son of Thomas Eaton (drowned in 1814) and Jane Spink (and David's wife Jane Spink was the daughter of John Spink (I think he also drowned in 1814) and Jane Eaton).
The mind begins to boggle at the repetition of the same names. How did they manage to avoid committing incest?
Harry
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WOW! a lot to take in for a novice like me! but so good to know there are people out there so willing to help, thanks very much! looks like i have a lot of what i thought was coming, coming!
i have joined the Auchmithie website and Kev has been in touch. looking forward to what is ahead and just lets see what happens!!
thanks again for your help Harry
eric
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harry, i have just seen a photograph of the headstone erected in the memory of thomas Eaton and his 3 brother-in-laws which is erected in st vigeans church cemetery. i am guessing you have seen this photograph? it is on the auchmithie roots website?
Eric
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Yes, I've seen the actual headstone, and I think I've also seen a photo of it on the forum. I said that the David Spink who drowned in 1814 was my 3 x great-grandfather, but I should have said 4 x. It was his son David who drowned in 1836 who was my 3 x great-grandfather.
Harry
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The aforementioned Thomas Eaton and David Spink who both drowned on June 13 1814 were BOTH my husbands 4 x G Grandfathers on his mothers side
Ellen
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There are some new pictures of St Vigeans at http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NO6342