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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: brsksm on Sunday 10 May 15 15:31 BST (UK)
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I need help with the UK census. I have located the family in the 1891 census ref RG12/227, but a normal search in 1901 does not find them. Can I somehow locate RG12/227 (Winchester St , N1, London) and see who now lives at No 19 Winchester St?
I have tried searching the 1901 census for all the other Winchester St residents who were in the 1891 census as a means of finding RG12/227 but everyone seems to have moved on, remarkably!
The family is John Kent, wife Jane and 8 children.
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Can you give John and Jane's date and place of birth and names of a few of the children as someone may be able to help?
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RG12 is the reference used by The National Archives for the 1891 census.
The 1901 census will be under RG13.
Piece numbers (i.e. 227) will vary from census to census.
I think Winchester Street was renamed as Killick Street in 1894/5?
See: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vol47/pp405-438
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Is this the family in 1891?
All born Clerkenwell, London apart from John
John Kent 44 General dealer Norfolk
Jane Kent 42
John Kent 14
George Kent 12
Thomas Kent 10
William Kent 8
May Kent 6
Maudie Kent 4
Samuel Kent 2
Charles Kent 3/12
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1901
Henry Barratt Head Married Male 63 1838 Carpenter Sidmouth, Devon,
Mary J Barratt Wife Married 65 1836 Teignmouth, Devon, England
Ellen Barratt Daughter Single Female 39 1862 Torquay, Devon, England
William Barratt Son Single Male 27 1874 Plumber -
Mary J Barratt Daughter Single Female 25 1876 Clerk -
Herbert Barratt Son Single Male 21 1880 Plumber Pimlico, Middlesex
Frederick MacKley Son Single Malem28 1873 Head Waiter London, Middlesex,
RG13/88/73/11
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So they aren't there in 1901, I can't find them elsewhere at the moment, I wonder if they emigrated?
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1901
Henry Barratt Head Married Male 63 1838 Carpenter Sidmouth, Devon,
Mary J Barratt Wife Married 65 1836 Teignmouth, Devon, England
Ellen Barratt Daughter Single Female 39 1862 Torquay, Devon, England
William Barratt Son Single Male 27 1874 Plumber -
Mary J Barratt Daughter Single Female 25 1876 Clerk -
Herbert Barratt Son Single Male 21 1880 Plumber Pimlico, Middlesex
Frederick MacKley Son Single Malem28 1873 Head Waiter London, Middlesex,
RG13/88/73/11
The above is a different Winchester Street, in St George Hanover Square, not Clerkenwell. :)
As far as I can see, 19 Winchester Street in Clerkenwell was not enumerated in 1901 (Holborn registration district). The official street index shows odd numbers 1-9, then Winton House, then 33 onwards. These addresses start at RG13/252 folio 100.
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Sorry, scrub my previous reply I missread the number as 91, at 19 are
Kate CHINNI Head widow 70 born Ipswich Suffolk
Georgina DALE servant single 70 born London
RG13/88/49/20
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Still the wrong district, sorry :)
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Thanks everyone.
Yes it is the family in 1891 listed by groom. the only one that I can trace is William who enlisted in the Royal Marine Light Infantry at Deal in 1903; Married in 1909 to Kate Ellen Bishop; Served til 1925; Died from accident at Lloyds Paper Mill, Sittingbourne, April 1939.
Maybe Charled died in WW!.
But the others seem to vanish
Winchester St and the parallel Southampton St did change name but perhaps later than 1894. I have a Bartholemews map dated 1930 with the old names.
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These are a couple of name changes in 1912
Winchester street to Cornick street Bermondsey 1912
Winchester street to Bassett street St. Pancras 1912
And 1929 to 1945 Winchester Street N.1 Killick Street
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Winchester Street became Killick Street in 1937.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vol47/pp405-438#h3-0022
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Winchester Street became Killick Street in 1937.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vol47/pp405-438#h3-0022
Apologies, I obviously mis-read the article? :-[
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Yes it is the family in 1891 listed by groom. the only one that I can trace is William who enlisted in the Royal Marine Light Infantry at Deal in 1903; Married in 1909 to Kate Ellen Bishop; Served til 1925; Died from accident at Lloyds Paper Mill, Sittingbourne, April 1939.
Is William your direct line, and do you have his birth certificate?
It may be just me, but I can't seem to find matching birth records for some of these KENT children, so I'm wondering if they might be under a different surname in 1901? Just a thought.
ADDED - I guess the critical question is, How sure are you that this is the correct KENT family?
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So far no Birth Certificate. William is direct line but the only link with this Kent family is Williams wedding certificate (1909) which says William's father was John Kent (deceased), Cabinet Maker.
Also Williams enlistment forms show b1884 in Hackney.
Also a younger brother Charles killed in WW1
I had hoped that tracing the siblings might fillin the gaps. But they disappeared.
Is it certain that there are no enumeration records for the district in 1901?
Thanks for your elp.
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Thanks for clarifying. So you are looking for a KENT family, with William born around 1884 in Hackney, a younger brother Charles, and a father John KENT, who was a cabinet maker and deceased by 1909.
Maybe we should put the Clerkenwell lot aside for the moment and look for another KENT family? We can always come back to them if necessary. :)
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Sounds good.
Thanks
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The family are at 14 Peacock Street Bethnal Green in 1891
John's wife is Mary.
RG12; Piece: 263; Folio: 28; Page: 57
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This looks like John's death.
Deaths Jun 1892
Kent John 33 Whitechapel 1c 209
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A likely death for Mary
Deaths Jun 1898
Kent Mary 33 Whitechapel 1c 172
Sarah the youngest seem to have been fostered out in 1901 with a Louisw WALTON at 129 Grove Road Bethnal Green
RG13/0293 Folio 78 page 31
Esther was boarding at 31 Blyth Road West Ham
RG13/156 Folio 01 page 89
William was at 23 Kingsland Road Lodging House
RG13/0269 Folio 68 page 19
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Jebber's findings look encouraging. :)
Also a younger brother Charles killed in WW1
There is no brother Charles in this Bethnal Green family, so can you please tell us where this piece of information comes from?
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The Bethnal Green family is the only one where the father is a cabinet maker and has a son William the right age.
We need to know more about the brother Charles who is supposed to have died in the war. It would also be helpful to know what information there is in William's RMLI records.
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William's son Thomas George Kent is 90 this year. I am trying to do his family whilst heis able to be interrogated. He said his father William told him about a brother Charles. who was killed in WW1. Thomas was born in 1925 a year after his father was demobbed from the Marines. Although William had a job at the Lloyds Paper Mill, Sittingbourne, he was away alot, ostensibly on Royal Naval reserve business, although he did not rise through the ranks during his 21 years of service. The family half think that Williams death (April 1939) from a hand injury which turned septic incurred at the Paper Mill and the subject of a Coroners Inquest, is somehow a coverup related to the navy service.
I don't think there is evidence for this but I do accept that his father was away frequently for periods at a time.
There could be other more mundane reasons for his absences. In any event Thomas spernt much more time with his maternal Grandfather than his own father and thus knows very little about his fathers background. The puzzle is the lack of certificates etc.
I will try and attach Williams service record. If it doesn't work I will try tomorrow.
Documents removed to prevent breaches of copyright
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The attestation form is dated 1903, and William is aged 21 and born in Hackney?
So, this must be his birth registration:
June qtr 1882
Hackney district vol 1b, page 469
Kent, William Robert
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But this militiaman is presumably a different William Kent from the one in the RMLI, born Hackney in 1884, who enlisted 28 July 1903.
There is a possible service record for him here
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7814372
(You will need to remove the image above, for copyright reasons -- or a moderator will no doubt do so.)
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On the third page of the record it shows him transferring to the RMLI in 1903.
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There is a William KENT born Hackney 1882 with father James and younger brother Charles living at
28 Ottaway Street Hackney in 1891
RG12/0185 Folio 66 page 49, the father is a labourer, not a cabinet maker.
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On the third page of the record it shows him transferring to the RMLI in 1903.
Thanks. Now corrected above.
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There is a William KENT born Hackney 1882 with father James and younger brother Charles living at
28 Ottaway Street Hackney in 1891
RG12/0185 Folio 66 page 49, the father is a labourer, not a cabinet maker.
This could be the William Robert KENT mentioned above (reply #23), baptised on 19 April 1882 at Christ Church Clapton, from 18 Ottaway Street, son of James (carman) and Mary.
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William's RMLI record attached. He was on HMS Galatea during the Battle of Jutland.
As far as I know he only had one first name.
Documents removed to prevent breaches of copyright
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I would put money on the Ottaway Street family being the correct one, and the baptism found by Bookbox is him. Although the RMLI record shows his birth year as 1884, there is no matching birth in the GRO Index, however the one for William Robert in 1882 is the correct quarter for the April birth. Ages and other facts often out on military records.
Quite often middle names were dropped which could explain why Robert is not on his records, in the same way some people adopted middle names during their lifetime.
i suggest you look further into the Ottaway Street family, try and find what became of that Charles, the more information you glean on all the families mentioned, the easier it will become to eliminate them.
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Thank you. I will follow the leads and report back eventually. This has been ongoing for some months.
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I would put money on the Ottaway Street family being the correct one, and the baptism found by Bookbox is him.
Just to clarify ...
I posted the 1882 baptism simply to link up the records that have been found for William Robert Kent -- birth index (reply #23) and 1891 census in Ottaway Street (reply #25) -- NOT because I think he is the right person. He has the wrong father (James) with the wrong occupation (labourer/carman), as compared to the 1909 marriage record.
However, the Willie Kent in Peacock Street, Bethnal Green (reply #17), has the right father (John) with the right occupation (cabinet maker). Admittedly he apparently has no brother Charles, but with the greatest respect it's possible that the details of this WW1 death, or the brother's name, may have been misremembered over time.
This William Kent in Peacock Street with the father John (cabinet maker) is said in 1891 to have been born in Whitechapel 1885/86. Perhaps he just thought he was born in Hackney? Peacock Street is in any case very close to the parish boundary with Hackney. Just a thought.
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Also possible that Charles came along later, after the census.
I couldn't find Peacock St though.
I will chack al the stuff. Thanks.
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I couldn't find Peacock St though.
The official census street index for Bethnal Green in 1891 shows Peacock Place and Street off Cambridge Road. The sequence of streets as enumerated in 1891 is Peacock Place, Peacock Street, Poyser Street.
Peacock Place is shown here (Stanford 1878)
http://london1878.com/stanford33b.htm
From the top of the map square, follow Cambridge Road to about halfway down the map, where you see the Museum. Peacock Place is off the west side of Cambridge Road, opposite the Museum. The dwellings will probably have been alongside the railway arches.