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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: SpudKiwi on Thursday 07 May 15 11:05 BST (UK)
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Hello everyone.
I am seeking information on the family of my great-great-grandfather Allen Bell.
In his own words he says he was born in 1840, though one family memoir says 24/12/1841. He had a sister called Catherine, and a brother (name unknown). These 3 emigrated to New Zealand. Allen in 1863 on Nimroud, the other two by unknown ships and unknown dates but also probably during the 1860's. Catherine was in NZ by June 1868 as she was a witness to Allen's wedding. I have no names for his parents or any other siblings (if indeed there were any others), which is the information I am specifically seeking.
Allen was interviewed by a NZ newspaper in 1895 where he states the following about his past.
"Born in 1840 at Crumlin, 11 miles from Belfast, in County Antrim, Ireland. At 15 years of age after a suitable schooling, undertook to help his uncle who owned a farm at his birthplace. In 1862, when 22 years of age, secured a berth on the Nimroud, and landed at Auckland." What happened to him once in NZ is mostly discovered, and the family tree of his 9 children is well established. I am now trying to uncover more of his Irish past.
In the absence of census records for the Camlin parish for 1841 or 1851, I have resorted to the Griffiths Valuation of 1862(?). I have found that a John Bell was the Occupier for plot 7a in Ballygortgarve (really really close to Crumlin), which was named Glenfield. I feel it is no small coincidence that Allen Bell named his first farm in New Zealand, Glenfields. I am guessing this John Bell may be his father or the uncle he mentioned.
By the magic of Google Earth I see that plot 7a is still a farm, though the town of Crumlin is a lot closer than it used to be!
I appreciate that Bell is one of the more common surnames in Ireland, but in my family there is a tendency to reuse names. Allen Bell named his first son Allen also. His other sons were William John, Alfred George, Robert James (also my brothers name as it happens), Leonard Henry, and Walter Charles. The daughters were Matilda Jane, Margaret Anne, and Alice May. I hope that these childrens names may be clues as to his parents names.
I also know he was not Roman Catholic. Whether he was CofI, or Presbyterian or something else I cannot say, except that for the last 3 generations at least, we've been Anglican.
I hope I have provided enough information the Genealogy Genies to work with.
Thanks in advance, SpudKiwi.
PS The ultimate travesty is that I was in Belfast on holiday 10 years ago, but back then I only knew County Antrim. The Crumlin/Ballygortgarve information only came to light a couple of weeks ago! I was sooo close!
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The Ulster Historical Foundation website "AncestryIreland" has an 1839 County Antrim baptism record for an Allen Bell with father John, the record content is pay to view, however, be aware that for records of this era, the content may not be much.
Also, the British Newspaper Archive has several items in a newspaper called the Northern Whig which confirm that the lands of the townland of Ballygortgarve were known by the name of Glenfield, near the town of Crumlin. Sale notices confirm that in the late 1830s, it was in the ownership of a Robert Bell, then in the late 1840s, in the ownership of John Bell. Several of the notices carry a detailed description of the property.
A couple of other John Bell references to confirm the "Glenfield" connection...
As a shareholder of the Dublin & Antrim Junction Railway Company:
http://www.glenavyhistory.com/glenavyRailway.php
As one of the "Clergy, Gentry &c." in Crumlin in the 1861 Belfast / Ulster street directory:
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/PT_Cpage545.htm
PRONI has a record relating to a "Marriage Settlement of Robert Bell, Glenfield, Co. Antrim, and Elizabeth Molyneaux. Crumlin, Co. Antrim." - you can search here:
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/ecatalogue.htm
Same website has valuation revision books which you can look at, eg. in the 1864-66 book covering Ballygortgarve, I can see a John Bell occupying lands and someone else occupying land from lessor "Robert Bell in chancery":
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
Edited to add: Another mention of Robert Bell of Glenfield here, very similar to the other newspaper articles: http://www.glenavyhistory.com/townlands/ballygortgarve.php
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Thanks Gaffy. I thought I may have to wait a week or few to get any feedback so your response has been a most welcome surprise. Since I posted I have pretty much worked out that the other brother's name is John. He eventually settled in a different part of NZ and called his farm Glenfield as well.
I will certainly look into the baptism record. I was disappointed though to see that the newspaper archive is a subscription service, here in NZ that is free. Maybe some kind member who already has a sub could look up the Northern Whig for me?
Your suggestion though caused me to search for Northern Whig which led me to "Eddies Extracts" and an excerpt from the Banner of Ulster (1843) in which a Robert Bell is in court for forgery, has a brother called John of Glenfield, and was sent to prison for 2 years. There is mention of another brother , Henry, who is insolvent. However, how can Robert be sentenced to prison in March 1843, and be awarded "in Chancery" in June, a mere 3 months later?
You also mention a PRONI record of a Marriage Settlement of Robert Bell. Is that the same as a divorce?
I am continuing my trawling of the Griffiths Valuations. I think the Bells left Glenfield at some point and ended up at Aghnadarragh, but that's a thread I'm still trying to unravel.
Once again, thankyou.
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So I forked over GBP4 for the baptism record. It gives both parents names, but the baptism is registered in Ballinderry. I suspect that is too far south.
By the way, I now believe the other brother that emigrated to NZ was named John. 99% sure.
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Allan Bell on Nimroud
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/Nimroud1863.htm
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Allan Bell on Nimroud
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/Nimroud1863.htm
Thanks rathmore, but I already had that link, or at least one that was identical.
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Hi SpudKiwi,
An Allen BELL had a presence in Aghnadarragh townland in 1840:
MARRIAGES
On the 12th inst.,
in Glenavy Church,
by the Rev. D. Bell,
Mr. Robert Davis Kirk, of Belfast,
to Anne, second daughter of Mr. Allen Bell, of Aghnadaragh.
The Belfast News-Letter, Friday, January 24, 1840; Issue 10700.
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http://lisburn.com/books/glenavy/glenavy-1a.html
Glenavy about 1890: Big Houses of the Area:
Allen BELL, Springfield;
J. BELL, Bell Grove.
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DUBLIN LAW REPORTS .
Allen BELL & others, successful application to the Court to in get access to funds granted to Ellen BELL, mother, deceased, granted by the Testator.
The Belfast News-Letter, Thursday, December 8, 1898; Issue 26004.
Capt. Jock
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"You also mention a PRONI record of a Marriage Settlement of Robert Bell. Is that the same as a divorce?"
Nope. A marriage settlement was a pre-nuptual agreement drawn up by the two families (both usually possessing property of some value) to agree what (dowry, land, equipment, furnishings, titles, etc.) would brought to the marriage (and freed up if things went wrong later, or one of the partners died.).
[Before the 20thC, a woman's possessions would become the exclusive property of her husband by default on marriage, unless she had the power/presence/money to determine otherwise beforehand.]
Widows were much sought after by young men of fortune!
[Translate "of fortune" as "looking for a quick fortune".]
Such agreement were usually only associated with high-powered landed families.
Or those with pretensions to follow in their footsteps!
The overall owners of SW Antrim, were the SEYMOUR-CONWAYS.
Raised to the Peerage during the pre-1800 crisis as Lords Hertford.
A marriage settlement in their family, mentioning many of the townlands of SW Antrim, can be viewed on a large vellum parchment in the record office at Warwick.
[N.B. No genealogical information (addendum: on their tenants) is present therein.]
Capt. Jock
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Robert Bell is in court for forgery, has a brother called John of Glenfield, and was sent to prison for 2 years. There is mention of another brother , Henry, who is insolvent. However, how can Robert be sentenced to prison in March 1843, and be awarded "in Chancery" in June, a mere 3 months later?
Not sure that you are interpreting "awarded" correctly.
He will have been given a financial judgement against him, albeit with an ameliorated implementation.
Think that "in Chancery" means that the resolution of the judgement in the case is expected to take an extended period of time (e.g. A fine was due, but could not be met immediately from extant resources), and that dependent family members are impacted (so become wards of Court). They will effectively be held under the care of the Court, while the sentence is being served and the monies levied to pay off the fine.
[Think of it as a just, yet benevolent, stewardship by the Court over a number of years.]
The Judges will have looked first at immediate family ties.
[Not sure what legal powers they might have had to "persuade" such to cough up, if any.
This is probably why brother Henry declared himself legally insolvent.]
They would have then looked at other options.
The one that they settled upon was sub-letting out the land of the farm to a new tenant for a period of 7 years. Any monies accrued from that would have been directed back to the Court, who would then have distributed such appropriately to the Landlord (rent), the Plaintiff (compensation), and the deemed needs of the (found guilty) Respondent's family.
Laws were pretty tough and unforgiving in Victorian times. You could be transported to Oz for stealing a loaf of bread, or a handkerchief, or for "issuing" a bent sixpence (after chewing some of its silver off - a common practice - trader's had to examine their change very very carefully before handing it over). Many judgements simply went by the book - Statutory Mandatory Sentencing, as directed by Laws handed out by Parliament, with little leeway left to the Judges.
[Human Rights were given scant worth. In one famous "incident" London cleared most of its ragamuffins (orphaned, pickpocketing waifs) away by locking them up in a "different" prison one Saturday night - a ship moored on the Thames. They all thought this was a marvellous escapade, 'til it sailed the next morning!]
We had kin on the island of Guernsey in the 1860s, where the laws were even more stringent. If someone got in to financial difficulty, then the Court could legally come after anyone in the family tree!
[We visit there gingerly, and try not to mention the family name when we pick up the keys to the graveyards from the Constable! We're not too worried about the outstanding value of the original fines, but are terrified by the potential accrued interest! It adds a certain "frissant" to the visits ...]
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The upshot for Robert BELL was that he lost the "worth" of the produce of the Glenfield farm for 7 years, perhaps retreating back with his family to the (original?) family farm in Aghnadarragh.
Such holdings were immediate (Southerly) neighbours to the WHITTLE homestead at Thistleborough in Ballyshannaghill (aka Ballshannochy), Camlin.
[The ancient Irish name for the area is "Ederaowen" - meaning "Between the Rivers" - viz. Glenavy & Crumlin.]
Certainly the BELLs were there a century before. A deed of Widow McNEICE in the 18thC mentions her two sons-in-law (SLOAN & WHITTLE), as well as a widow BELL who occupied a cottage on her land. Her son Conway McNEICE was resident (later?) at Pigeontown, which is nearby, along with SLOAN and OAKMAN. The McNEICE family were "big" CoI players.
[Will dig out the details for you.]
More on the BELL surname next time ...
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Crikey, that's a lot to take in! I failed both of my first year Law papers so I will need to read and re-read a few times to make sure I understand everything. The Ulster Banner article does indeed state that transportation was on the cards for Robert, but for whatever reason he got 2 years in lock-up instead.
What do you mean by "big Col players"?
Anyhow, that's a sterling amount of information thanks Whuttle, and I look forward to your next installment.
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SpudKiwi,
I've done a quick scan through the 19thC Belfast Newsletter & Freeman's Journal (Dublin), extracting relevant looking articles. Some interesting stuff!
[N.B. Selection NOT comprehensive.]
Will summarise the findings here tomorrow, in case others might pick up on the information.
[In the meantime, I'll send you a P.M. with a URL pointer to the document.]
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By "big CoI players" I simply meant "stalwart supporters of the Established Church (of Ireland)".
viz. Protestant Episcopalian.
The Rev. D. BELL conducted many marriages at Glenavy, before be moved to St. Andrews,Inch, Downpatrick. He was definitely a CoI clergyman. Was he a relative?!
[There was a strong possibility that your BELLs might have been dissenters, BELL being a Scottish name. In remote areas with no local dissenting congregations, like Glenavy, it was common for dissenting families to attend the CoI and to fill the posts of "sidesmen". It was especially important, in order for marriages to be declared legal (and hence offspring to be recognised as legitimate - thus able to inherit) for a ceremony to be held in the CoI church under the auspices of the Vicar. This requirement was ameliorated by the great Dissenters' Relief Act of 1845, which started the move away from inheritance administration being the exclusive domain of the Ecclesiastical Courts to Civil ones, though this process did not fully complete until 1870.]
Capt. Jock
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Oh, CoI (cee-oh-eye) is Church of Ireland. I understand now. I was reading it as cee-oh-ell!
I have found out that Allen Bell and Mary Mathews got married in NZ in by a Presbyterian minister. Not sure if that helps much. There were probably not too many ministers to chose from in those early days in NZ.
I'm not aware of a Rev D. Bell, but as I don't know much at all, I can't rule it out!
Thanks Capt Jock.
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Transcripts (simplified) of (some of) the references to BELL in the Belfast Newsletter (BNL):
08-DEC-1898 (Thu) BNL Issue 26004
07-DEC-1898 Allen BELL and others are granted access to stock bequeathed to Ellen BELL, their mother, deceased.
02-APR-1886 (Fri) BNL Issue 22083
26-MAR-1886 (Fri) Statutory Notice to Creditors
22-JAN-1886 William BELL's Will is proved;
By John BELL, of Aghnadarragh, Farmer & Allen Bell McKINSTRY, of Aghnadarrah, Salesman, the Executors.
13-JAN-1886 William BELL, of Springfield, Glenavy, Farmer, dies.
05-OCT-1882 (Thu) BNL Issue 20975
04-OCT-1882 (Wed) Allen BELL (with son Robert BELL) tenant on Estate of Lord Massereene & Ferrard.
Area: 29 Acres 1 Rood 20 Perches; rent £19 10s; valuation £15 5s.
Portions of the land deemed to be of inferior quality.
09-APR-1851 (Wed) BNL Issue 11757
04-APR-1851 (Fri) Married in Templepatrick Remonstrant Church, by Rev. Joseph NELSON:
Mr. Robert BELL, Ballycastle, to Miss Letitia BELL. Kilmakee, Parish of Templepatrick.
01-MAY-1844 (Wed) FJ Issue N/A
26-APR-1844 (Fri) ACCIDENT ON LOCH NEAGH - THREE YOUNG GENTLEMEN DROWNED
Mr. Allen BELL, Glenavy Water-foot;
Mr. Alexander CHARTERS, son of Mr. John CHARTERS (esteemed townsman);
Mr. Henry NELSON, son of Mr. James NELSON, Ballinderry.
Boat capsized by a sudden, violent squall from the North, as it rounded Ram's Island.
19-MAR-1844 (Tue) BNL Issue 11130
14-MAR-1844 (Thu) Married in Glenavy Church, by Rev. D. BELL:
Robert PATTERSON, son of Alexander PATTERSON, Upper Ballinderry,
to Anne BELL, dau of the late Robert BELL, Aghadolgan.
12-MAY-1843 (Fri) Issue 11043
05-MAY-1843 (Fri) Married in Glenavy Church, by Rev. D. BELL:
John CAMPBELL, Deerpark, to Eliza ALLEN, Lisburn.
10-FEB-1843 (Fri) BNL Issue 11017
02-FEB-1843 (Thu) Died, aged 67, at his residence, Kinella, near Dromara,
Robert BELL, Esq., of the General Valuation of Ireland.
04-JAN-1841 (Mon) BNL Issue 10798
28-DEC-1840 (Mon) Died, aged 12, John Bowland BELL, 11th son of Captain Robert BELL, Bellbrook, Glenavy
10-APR-1840 (Fri) BNL Issue 10721
27-MAR-1843 (Fri) Married in Glenavy Church, by Rev. D. BELL:
Michael M'HARG, Lisburn, surgeon to Annabella BELL, eldest dau of David BELL, Langarvy.
11-FEB-1840 (Tue) BNL Issue 10705
31-JAN-1840 (Fri) Died, Robert BELL, son of John BELL, Tullyquilly, near Rathfriland.
24-JAN-1840 (Fri) BNL Issue 10700
12-JAN-1840 (Sun) Married in Glenavy Church, by Rev. D. BELL:
Robert Davis KIRK, Belfast, to Anne BELL, 2nd dau of Allen BELL, Aghnadaragh.
12-JAN-1838 (Fri) BNL Issue 10491
03-JAN-1840 (Wed) Married in Glenavy Church, by Rev. D. BELL:
Henry HOPER, Lower Ballinderry, to Mary BELL, Leap.
20-FEB-1835 (Fri) BNL Issue 10193
31-JAN-1835 (Sat) Married in Glenavy Church, by Rev. D. BELL:
James BELL, Ballydonaghy, to Mabel McVEAGH, Ballyshanaghy.
08-NOV-1833 (Fri) BNL Issue 10059
30-OCT-1833 (Wed) Married in Glenavy Church:
John VERNON, eldest son of the Rev. John VERNON, Lisburn,
to Anna Maria BELL, 2nd dau of Captain Robert BELL, Bell Brook, Glenavy.
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Subscribers to "Original Poems, sacred, moral elegiac" by William Anderson, English Teacher, 2nd volume MDCCCXLI (1841)
George L. Bell, Esq. Glenconway, Glenavy
Rev. Daniel Bell, Glenavy
George Bell, Aghanadarragh, Glenavy
http://www.glenavyhistory.com/ballinderry_LaaLoo.php
[Capt Jock: Stafford WHITTLE created a model farm/manufactory in Glenconway, abandoning Thistleborough, Ballyshannaghill (which was in a ruinous state even by 1835).]
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Many references to BELL on the Glenavy History site.
e.g. http://www.glenavyhistory.com/glenavy_parishChurch.php
The 1843 Judgement against Robert BELL as reported in the BNL.
http://www.glenavyhistory.com/townlands/ballygortgarve.php
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HEARTH MONEY ROLL FOR 1669. Mazareene Barony.
GLENAVEY TOWNE: Widd Bell, George Allin
CORBELLY (Corbaliy): Wid Bell
BALLYMCETHANY (Ballymacilhoyle): Walter Bell
SEACASH: James BELL
BALLYGROBAN (Ballyrobin): Walter BELL
CARMEAVY (Grange of Carmavy): Walter BELL
CARNACLASSE (Carnaghliss): John BELL
BALLYDRENTOCK (Ballynadrentagh): John BELL
http://lisburn.com/books/glenavy/glenavy-1.html
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Hi Capt,
Thanks very much for the information you sent me.
I used to think genealogy was like looking for a needle in a haystack, but when you’re dealing with BELLs it’s more like looking for a needle in a haystack full of needles!
And it would seem that Allen Bell (b. ca1840) is a most tricky needle indeed.
I now have several slightly conflicting pieces of information regarding his origins which I have sourced here in NZ.
All sources put his birth in 1840 or 1841 bar one.
His NZ marriage certificate (17/6/1868) says he was 24yrs, which puts his birth nearer 1844.
Possible locations are Crumlin, and just yesterday I found a reference that said Glenavy.
In your opinion, how solid is the Glenfield/Ballygortgarve connection?
Is it relevant that Allen Bell and his brother John, both ended up naming their farms in NZ, “Glenfield”?
John Bell also had another NZ farm called “Belgrove”, but that’s a little more predictable.
Kind regards
SpudKiwi
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That early on you must rely upon church records.
[Civil registration of Births did not start until 1864.]
The church records may only contain dates of Baptisms, NOT Births.
CoI vicars insisted on the sacraments being performed in the church buildings.
If a child was a bit poorly, then it may not have been felt appropriate to bring it to a formal baptism ceremony till it was properly "on its feet" healthwise, perhaps even aged several years old.
[Protestant theology doesn't require the rapid baptism of the young.]
So, it is important when you see a date to know which of Birth or Baptism is meant.
[Misinterpreting a baptismal date as a birth date would result in underestimating an individual's age.]
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St. Aidan's CoI served the three conjoined parishes of Glenavy, Camlin and Tullyrusk (from ~1633).
http://www.glenavyhistory.com/glenavy_parishChurch.php
The CoI church at Crumlin was burnt down by the Jacobite forces in 1690.
So, anyone from near that town would be required to use St. Aidan's as their parish church.
[Other CoI churches were located at Killead, Antrim & Lisburn, but the parochial attendance requirements were very stringent.]
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CRUMLIN (town) was the postal hub for all mail directed towards Glenavy.
[e.g. The WHITTLEs resident at Thistleborough, Ballyshanaghill, Camlin, would have mail addressed to them simply as "Francis WHITTLE, Crumlin". So neither the Townland nor the Parish was deemed necessary to be specified. The Post Office would know what to do with the packages.]
The gradually emerging logical structures supporting civil registration (starting with Protestant marriages from 1845) established local registration offices. These can sometimes confuse researchers in to misinterpreting that the participants originated from, or were married, there.
[Hmm, would need to check some more w.r.t. the exact location of the civil registration office for Glenavy/Crumlin/Tullyrusk ...]
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There is a very strong incentive in these newspaper extracts for the naming of an "Allen BELL" in 1844, albeit such necessarily being born post-26APR1844. Namely, the unexpected demise at a young age of an individual with this name - no doubt a traumatic event for the extended family.
It would have been common for at least one, or even several, male BELL children born shortly after this event to be given the name "Allen", in memoriam.
Genealogically, it is more likely that such might have been cousins (born to one of the many brothers/uncles).
[I note that Robert BELL had at least 11 sons (as well as at least 2 daughters).
We have an example of this in our own history when a whole young family group perished at sea emigrating to Oz.]
However, if the deceased's parents were still sprogging, then it is likely that the next male production, perhaps born only a few month's after the tragedy, would be given the "Allen" name.
[Such to preserve it within that branch of the family, particularly if such was a traditional name. This can be confusing in the records, particularly if the first child died very young. It can result in individuals being mis-allocated to other family groups in the research conclusions.]
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N.B. The ALLEN surname is common.
[You'll find it in one of the transcribed records, as well as in the 1669 Hearth Money Rolls.
It was quite common to use surnames as first names.
However, it is also a first name in its own right - introduced by the Normans or from the clans.
Recommend copious glasses of The MacALLAN when trying to sort this out ...
See the transcripts for ALLEN and BELL from Robert BELL's "Ulster Surnames"!]
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One reason to move North was that the farms were bigger there.
[Average of 20A at Glenavy, 30A at Crumlin.]
The former was considered too small to support a family successfully.
[The UPTONs at Templepatrick upgraded the sizes of all their farms in the 1830s to 30A minimum.]
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Capt. Robert BELL
Captain of what?
1) Ship.
Possibly on Lough Neagh? - lots of coal coming over from Coalisland in Co. Tyrone.
Possibly out of Belfast? - The ENGLISH family, married in to the Glenavy OAKMAN family, had seafarers operating out of that port.
[Also, the WHITTLEs were international traders in linen, to the Americas & West Indies.]
2) Yeomanry
Stafford WHITTLE was Captain of the "Glenavy Infantry" (148 rank and file).
Maybe RB took over from him?
http://lisburn.com/books/glenavy/glenavy-1a.html#1815
3) Antrim militia or Regular Army
[Records will be in the UK National Archives at Kew.]
4) Police
[A Capt. BELL was in charge of the Horse Police in their Kevin-Street Barracks in Dublin. Ref: FJ 03-DEC-1821]
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I'd think that "Glenfield" was VERY diagnostic of their residence before emigrating.
Names of farms did tend to change, but the Post Office would have discouraged too many duplicates.
[Hard enough keeping track of the "ownership" changes. Many leases were for short periods of time.]
Besides, Glenfield is slightly oxymoronish (Irish?) - not something that might trip off the tongue as an immediate name for an exciting new location ... particularly if your brother had just used it for his property (ugh!) ?
[So there MUST have been a strong reason for them adopting identical names.
Nostalgia is a powerful emotion ...]
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Hope these rambles help you some more.
Capt. Jock
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Thanks Capt, that's certainly given me a lot to chew over the last few days! I have been trawling around the Glenavy History website as it seems to be the best source of BNL material that doesn't require a credit card. I found an extract from an issue dated 17 Jun 1828, there is a marriage announcement of a Mr Henry Bell, merchant, Crumlin to a Matilda Jane McDonald. Allen Bell's first daughter was named Matilda Jane. This does not come from the mothers immediate side of the family. We know John and Robert had a brother called Henry. What I am unsure of is the likelihood of a marriage in 1828 still producing children into the 1840's. Would this be typical of the times?
We also know Henry went broke. If Allen is his son, then it would make sense that he went to work for Uncle John on his farm after finishing school.
BTW, Allen must have been a reasonably literate man, as in NZ, he wrote a number of farming articles that were published in the newspaper, and was heavily involved in local school committees.
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Yes, there has been a power of work going on building the Glenavy website, with active gathering from many sources. Don't know how comprehensive/complete the aims are. Very impressive, and mighty useful!
[Some useful BELL family researchers appear under the "Family History" section there, with some very interesting (!) subject matter ...]
I gain access to the BNL online for free, courtesy of my County Library Service who took out subscriptions to the offerings from CENGAGE Learning after I suggested that it would be well used.
[Its 19thC British Newspapers collection includes the BNL and Freeman's Journal.
However, coverage is incomplete, with the BNL only offered from 01JAN1828.
One of these days I'll find out exactly when (~1801) and where (Muckamore manse?) James WHITTLE died, and where (Muckamore?) he is buried. He had moved his operation up to Muckamore, running the mills there, while several of his early sons tried to make their way in business as traders in burgeoning Belfast or further abroad.]
Henry Bell's marriage reported in the 17-JUN-1828 BNL edition resolutely refuses to be found in the indices offered by CENGAGE Learning. I had to home in on it by other means.
[Another example of poor automated indexing? Perhaps "thrown" by the whole name being printed in CAPITALS?! Ditto for his spouse, who also refused to be found. Eventually worked out the her surname was indexed as "M`Donald" ...
(thats a "backwards" single upper quote - located on the keyboard, top left).]
Interesting that they were granted a "Special Licence". Such allowed them to get married anywhere and at any time. [Note that no date is reported for the marriage ceremony in the newspaper.]
Such was also required if one, or both, participants were Dissenters.
[There is a strong likelihood that McDONALDs would have been of an RC persuasion.]
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Producing kids over an extended period was common practice, especially amongst the farming community. The mother could start as early as age 16, producing a child every 2 years for 20 years, say. Thats 11 children, but with high infant mortality, perhaps only 6-8 survivors. Enough for 3-4 strapping sons to help out with the work (and carry on the family name) and 3-4 doting daughters to look after you in old age (or attract dowries on marriage).
[My great-grandmother produced her first (aged 19) in 1877 and her 13th (aged 42) in 1910,
not dying 'til just short of her 78th birthday. My grandad was no. 12.]
I've seen reports of men having 22 offspring, but this is unlikely to have been with the same woman. If early children get sprogging young themselves, then you can situations where such offspring can be older than their uncles/aunts!
Back in Napoleonic times (viz. early 19thC) boys of age 9 were expected to no longer be a financial burden on their families - with apprenticeships, farm labouring, army, navy, school-scholarships, clergy, etc. being some of the paths open to them.
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Yes, education was much prized in the area.
[Still is! Northern Ireland consistently tops the school performance leagues in the UK.]
Strongly recommend that you get your hands on a copy of "Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland, Vol. 21: County Antrim VII, 1832-1838", ISBN 978-0-853894-62-9. It covers the Glenavy/Crumlin area.
http://www.booksireland.org.uk/store/all-departments/ordnance-survey-memoirs-of-ireland-vol-21-county-antrim-vii-1832-38
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At some point you are going to have to get to grips with the Glenavy CoI church records.
I interfaced with a very helpful lady (recommended by the Vicar) a number of years ago.
However, she has definitely "retired" from such work now.
[Despite copious details supplied, I was not able to confirm all of the information captured within a family history authored for the WHITTLEs dating from 1919.]
Capt. Jock
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Thanks Capt, I had not noticed the Family History forum on the Glenavy website before, so I have added my 2 cents worth to the Bells of Glenavy thread. I am not sure what you mean by the "interesting subject matter" though. Perhaps I missed something.
So I could be on to something with the Matilda Jane connection, the dates would work?
The Rev was named Cupples, I think I've seen that somewhere before, on the web while searching other stuff.
I shall try and get a hold of that book, but my usual online book supplier does not have it so I will try your link later. I've seen references to another book about a Laura Bell of Bellbrook but I'm not sure that's my Bells.
I imagine at some point I shall actually have to go back to Ireland. That will take a fair amount of funds and planning, so maybe not next week. I'll put it on the 5 year plan though.
Cheers, Spud
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Hi Team,
I'm still waiting for the book to arrive, but in the meantime I have been researching Allen's brother John's line. And this had led to a "discovery"! John Bell remarried in 1891, by which time in NZ you had to put parental details on the marriage certificate. John Bell's marriage certificate says he was born in Crumlin (same as Allen) and that his parents are John Bell (farmer) and Margaret Bell (nee Carmichael or least I think that is what it says).
So John at Glenfield is the father, Robert the Scoundrel and Henry the Broke are uncles.
Can anyone verify for me now if John and Margaret had more children?
Cheers
SpudKiwi
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SpudKiwi,
Thanks for sending the marriage record thru' directly for my opinion on the surname.
[N.B. It is generally reckoned OK to post snippets from out of such when trying to decipher hand writing.
There are many experts aboard this conference/board who can help you out.]
Reckon that it is CORMICHAN or CORMICKAN, a native Irish name.
[Such is a diminutive, or pet form, of CORMICK.
It was quite common to do this to Gaelic names, roughly equivalent to the "Mc" or "Mac" prefixes.
c.f. CORRIGAN = CORRY + GAN, etc.]
There are people recorded with both spellings in the public statement of support of the impending turn-of-the-19thC Union. Belfast Newsletter 11-OCT-1799.
http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/cgi-bin/belfst/QueryForm1.cgi
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The spelling seems to have become rationalised later as CORMICAN.
Ref: Advertisements & Notices, The Belfast News-Letter, Friday, May 22, 1829; Issue 9595.
1369 Philamy CORMICAN of Portmore (just South of Glenavy), Barony of Upper Massereene, applies to register his freehold (and hence imminent right to vote) as a holder of land & houses valued at £10.
1373 Edward CORMICAN, Portmore
A selection of others of interest to you listed there are:
1279 Edward BELL, Trummery
1283 Isaac BELL, Dogheremisk
1308 Henry BELL, Crumlin
1310 David ALLEN, Ballshanaghy
1349 John BELL, Ballyvorally & Bally...
1351 Meredith BELL, Ballyvorally
1388 Brent BELL, Trummery
The 1901 Census lists people with this CORMICAN surname as resident in:
Aghnadarragh, Crumlin, Ballynadentragh, Ballyvorally, Portmore, etc.
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John BELL gave his age as 45 on 21-MAY-1891 when he took Annie Elizabeth TAYLOR as his second wife in Flemington, Ashburton, New Zealand.
So, assuming that this age was accurate, he would have been born between 22-MAY-1845 and 21-MAY-1846.
[Too early for civil registration of births in Ireland, so have to rely upon church records.]
The marriage between his parents John BELL and Margaret CORMICAN (CORMICHAN, CORMICKAN) could therefore have taken place as late as the end of 1845, so might just make it in to the civil records (which commenced that year for marriages of Protestants). However, it is more likely to have been earlier, forcing reliance upon church records once more.
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I read that the CoI folks in Crumlin would resort to Killead to do their churching.
So, you need to include that place in your search, as well as Glenavy.
[Ref: 1832-38 O.S. Memoirs of Ireland, Vol. 21, South Antrim, Camlin parish, P.72 Public Buildings]
The CORMICAN listings within the 1901 census show an overwhelming adherence to Roman Catholicism, so it is highly likely that Margaret CORMICAN also followed this religious persuasion. As such the couple, involving a dissenting partner, may have had to apply for a special licence from the CoI hierarchy. They may have been married by an RC priest first.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
I searched for a notice of the wedding in the Belfast Newsletter, to no avail.
[Searched 1828-1856 BMD notices for "John BELL",
as well as (separately) all variations of Margaret's surname.]
Capt. Jock
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Hi Capt,
Thanks for passing your expert eye over the document. I didn't know how to include a picture in the forum so I figured emailing it to you would be easier, for me at least! I see now why you think it ends in "n", I was wondering myself where the "l" was given that other writing is visible beyond the end of the surname. And Flemington and Ashburton both seem to end in a similar style.
It is conceivable perhaps that a marriage may not even have taken place? John was simply lying about his parents being married to cover illegitimacy? I don't think there would have been much checking going on back then. That doesn't concern me overly much though. I have parental names now which should help to focus the Ireland research.
Goals from here on are to establish if there were other children, and where John and Margaret may be buried.
The Ordnance Survey book arrived today so will get onto that soon.
Cheers
SpudKiwi
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Hi again SpudKiwi,
The marriage certificate requires only the names of the parents, so implies nothing about their formal relationship.
Tried a search on the FindMyPast newspaper database, also to no avail.
No JB = MC marriage in its Irish Newspapers collection.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/irish-newspapers
Searched the UHF church records databases.
Only one BELL = CORMICAN marriage was found, in 1870.
http://www.ancestryireland.com/search-irish-genealogy-databases/
This must be that of ...
William Alexander BELL of Killead, son of Alexander BELL, who married
Jane CORMICAN of Glenavy, daughter of Edgar CORMICAN,
in the Parish Church at Glenavy on 25-FEB-1870.
[As detailed in a note, against entry (156), at http://www.glenavyhistory.com/glenavy_parishChurch_burials.php]
So, there is an example of a legitimate BELL=CORMICAN marriage which (apparently) was NOT reported in the newspapers.
[Posting such a notice cost money, perhaps such not being ready to hand ...]
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PRONI's guide to the extant church records can be seen here:
http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf
P.212 Glenavy CoI: Baptisms from 1707; Marriages from 1707; Burials from 1707.
P.213 Glenavy RC: Baptisms from 1849; Marriages from 1848.
P.237 Killead CoI: Baptisms from 1838; Marriages from 1845; Burials from 1873.
Capt. Jock
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[As detailed in a note, against entry (156), at http://www.glenavyhistory.com/glenavy_parishChurch_burials.php]
Hi Capt, I looked up this link and saw "On 25th February 1870 William Alexander Bell, Killed a farmer aged 27 years, " and thought, Blimey, if we're not trying to pass off dodgy cheques we're murdering people! Then after some consideration I realised it was meant to say "Killead"!
It's a bummer there seems to be nothing to corroborate the JB-MC connection. Thanks for looking into that for me. So I'll just keep picking and scraping and maybe I'll get another lucky break.
I've read the Parish of Camlin section of the Survey book. My Dad always said we were bog-Irish (pretty sure that wasnt complimentary!) so I had pleasure in informing him that according to the book "There is no bog in this parish"!
Cheers
SK
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Also, the British Newspaper Archive has several items in a newspaper called the Northern Whig which confirm that the lands of the townland of Ballygortgarve were known by the name of Glenfield, near the town of Crumlin. Sale notices confirm that in the late 1830s, it was in the ownership of a Robert Bell, then in the late 1840s, in the ownership of John Bell. Several of the notices carry a detailed description of the property.
So in all my googling and research I have not managed to find these newspaper items. Gaffy, if you are still popping in here, could you please show me where to find them.
Thanks, Spud
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SK,
The Northern Whig (from 1832) is included as one of the offerings within
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/irish-newspapers
Stick "bell" in to the surname field of the "Who?" section, and "glenfield" in to the "What Else?" section, and execute a Search. Change the "Order By" criteria to "Date" then again to "Date Ascending" to get a listing starting with the earliest hit.
ADDENDUM: Under the "Narrow Your Search" pane, click the "Show Filters" opposite "By Newspaper". Select "N" from the index, and then select the "Northern Whig", and click "Apply Filters".
This certainly picks up the action in the 1840s, but nothing in the 1830s.
[Leaving the surname out, and just looking for keyword "glenfield" doesn't find 1830s stuff either ... Yet another "indexing" quality issue? The character recognition appears to be very poor.]
You need to subscribe to FindMyPast in order to gain access to the detailed text of the articles.
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The following registered their holdings (in order to be allowed to vote as newly enfranchised voters in the forthcoming Parliamentary Election) in 1829:
No. Name, Residence: Holdings, Barony, Townland, Registered Value
13 John BELL, Ballytromery: House & Lands, Upper Massereene, Ballytromery, £10
14 John BELL, Glenfield: House & Lands, Upper Massereene, Ballygortgan, £10
15 Robert BELL, Crumlin: House & Lands, Upper Massereene, Ballytromery & Ballygortgan, £20
52 David BELL, Boltnaconnel: Houses & Lands, Lower Massereene, Boltnaconnel, <n/a>
Ref: Advertisements & Notices .
The Belfast News-Letter, Tuesday, September 29, 1829; Issue 9631.
N.B. This complements the previous notices in BNL issue 9595 dated 22-MAY-1829, mentioned before.
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Was much amused by your earlier comments, particularly w.r.t. "bogs".
I remind you of:
05-OCT-1882 (Thu) BNL Issue 20975
04-OCT-1882 (Wed) Allen BELL (with son Robert BELL) tenant on Estate of Lord Massereene & Ferrard.
Area: 29 Acres 1 Rood 20 Perches; rent £19 10s; valuation £15 5s.
Portions of the land deemed to be of inferior quality.
On Sunday last, at his house in Aughadalgon, Mr. Robert Bell, aged 69. [?89]
Northern Whig - 19-JAN-1832
The late Mr. Robert Bell, who was <b>intimately acquainted with the Irish peasantry</b>, in the period when Ireland is said to have been most prosperous ...
Northern Whig - 28-MAR-1833
Coming out of 5 generations of a bog-dwelling family myself, I can tell you that there is no shame involved! All bogs were the property of the Crown, so we had great influence over Affairs of State ... and were exempt from paying Tithes. We got so flush that we finally splashed out and installed flushing toilets at the pub in the 1970s.
The early English "Adventurers" referred to the indigenous population as the "mere Irish" .
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The "Whig" part of the Northern Whig's name derives from "Whiggamore".
This was an obsolete word for a mounted Scottish robber.
It came to prominence in the late 1680s Royal Succession crisis, when the normal centuries-old rules of primageniture dictated that Charles I's younger son James (who had embraced Catholicism) should succeed his elder brother Charles II. The Liberals, with many Scottish Protestants in their midst, wanted to prevent this, by stealing away the Crown and giving it to a Protestant. Their opponents labelled them with the derogatory epithet of "Whigs" - which badge they adopted promptly with pride!
The other side had many English and Irish Catholics in their midst, so the Whigs labelled them "Tories". A Tory was a bog/wood-dwelling robber in Ireland. The "Tory" Party wanted to steal away the long-established Protestant succession.
So, you will see, that the Northern Whig was the "Liberal" newspaper in the region. Such political views were adopted by most of the merchants and prosperous farming middle-classes, with the Landlords and High Churchmen (mostly) aligning themselves with the Tories.
Emancipation (right to vote) was legalised for Catholics in 1829, and the franchise extended across the population to holders of property worth more than £10. This had a huge effect at the 1830 election, with the Landlords power dramatically weakened. This change was deemed to have been "too much", so the the threshold was raised soon after to holdings worth at least £40. This threw the balance of power back to the landlords, such causing the great political "land problem" issues of the late 19thC, resulting in most of the land being made available to the tenantry via the compulsorily-imposed-by-the-UK-Government "Land Purchase Acts" of the early 20thC, giving them full ownership rights for ever of their holdings.
The SEYMOUR-CONWAYs, granted most of SW Antrim following the 1603 end of Elizabeth's nine-years-war with the Ulster Gaelic Lords, no longer possess any lands in Ireland.
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You're riding a great race there!
I've more ideas for you on how to conduct your research task.
Next time!
Capt. Jock
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There has been much going on behind the scenes, thanks to Capt Jock, who is an excellent guide and mentor.
John BELL (father of Allen) appears to have lived out his life in Crumlin, dying there Nov 1878. Brother Henry absconded to Liverpool in the 1850's to escape his debts. And brother Robert has emigrated to Tennessee, (probably after getting out of prison ca.1845).
I have been unable to determine any link with the BELLs in Aghnadarragh, nor with Edward BELL who farmed in Lennymore which must be quite close to the Glenfield farm in Ballygortgave.
I have also been unable to determine the more immediate family members of John other than the three children (Allen, Catherine, and John) who ended up in New Zealand. There is mention of a sister, a nephew, and two nieces, one of whom was named Susannah White in a Law Report in the BNL (Oct 1882). I am presuming he married based on the marriage certificate of his son John who immigrated to New Zealand, where he has put his parents names as John BELL and Margaret BELL formerly CORMICAN.
The hunt continues....
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I've read through this thread and I feel I've probably picked up a few tips. I thought I'd go in search of something I could add so I'd have an excuse to post. If this is relevant it’s probably only a (distant?) sideline...
In your opinion, how solid is the Glenfield/Ballygortgarve connection?
Is it relevant that Allen Bell and his brother John, both ended up naming their farms in NZ, “Glenfield”?
John Bell also had another NZ farm called “Belgrove”, but that’s a little more predictable.
PRONI has the will of a Dolway Bell who died in 1865:
The Will of Dolway Bell late of Bellgrove Glenavy in the County of Antrim Surgeon deceased who died 18 February 1865 at same place was proved at Belfast by the oath of Martha Bell of Bellgrove (Glenavy) aforesaid Widow one of the Executors
Looking at other (later) wills it seems Bellgrove was in Aghnadarragh. It’s already been suggested here that that townland may have been the (original?) home of the Bells (before they spread to Glenfield?).
I checked the Griffiths map for Aghnadarragh. No Bellgrove, but there is a Bellbrook House and a Bellvale. Was John Bell in NZ thinking of an old family home when he called his second farm Belgrove?
I tried to search the OSI historic (1830s) map, but I haven’t been able to load that map viewer for a few weeks now. It may still be worth a look if it works for you:
http://www.osi.ie/Home.aspx
(PRONI also apparently has an 1833 map that covers Aghnadarragh, Ballygortgarve and a few other townlands in between.)
The will of Dolway Bell mentions, among others:
Wife Martha
Son Arthur Bell
Daughters Mary, Anne, and Dalwina Bell
Brother Arthur Bell
“... after payment of [...] £50 to William Robert Bell as the fortune or portion of his wife Jane Anna Bell my daughter...”
From the Directory of Ulster Doctors:
Bell, Dolway (1799/1800-65), Glenavy, county Antrim;
Born 1799/1800; studied medicine at Glasgow University; LFPS and LM Glas 1854; medical officer to Glenavy Dispensary District, of Bellgrove, Glenavy; married 23 December 1854* in Soldierstown, county Antrim, Martha Heastie, daughter of John Heastie of Aghalee; died 18 February 1865 at Bellgrove; buried in Glenavy Roman Catholic Graveyard; probate Belfast 27 April 1865.
[* Should this be 1824? The Directory lists the Belfast Newsletter, 31 Dec 1824, as a source for his. However, I don’t see any marriages in that edition. Also Dolway’s will refers to a marriage settlement of 1836...?]
[Northern Whig, 13th Dec 1836]
On the 1st inst,by the Rev. A. MacCaldin, Dalway Bell, Esq., Bellgrove, to Martha, youngest daughter of Robert Huston, Esq., Coleraine.
Something has got mixed up here...? Did he marry Martha Huston or Martha Heastie, or both?
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Welcome MFGilbert, to my thread. I am pleased that you may have found our ramblings useful, and thank you for your contribution. I too have come across Dolway Bell. But like with Edward of Lennymore, there is nothing to link him directly, or indirectly for that matter, with the Crumlin BELLs. The trouble with BELLs is that there are just so many of them, a bit like tribbles (Star Trek reference). The geographical proximity of Aghnadarrah and Lennymore is tempting, but may be nothing more than a red herring.
I haven't looked too closely into them. I've been focusing on the 3 brothers and trying to work outwards from there. When that stops being productive (and I think that may be soon) then I may try investigating the nearby BELLs to see if they produce any mention of the Crumlin lot.
I've never been able to get that OSI map website to work either. I find the one here quite good though.. http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation .
Allen and John didn't come to NZ together. Within about 5 years of Allen arriving, John shows up on the radar as being in a farming partnership with Allen, and 2 of Allen's brothers-in-law in Canterbury, South Island, NZ. This farm was Glenfield. They both did well enough to buy farms of their own. These farms were in the same province, John called his farm Belgrove, and I dont know if Allen's farm had a name. Allen went broke (continuing a fine family tradition) and moved to Taranaki in the North Island where he essentially became a tenant farmer, leasing Maori land to farm. John did much better and upgraded to a bigger farm in Marlborough, South Island, and called this farm Glenfield. Unfortunately John's 6 children failed to procreate and that line ended.
I too have wondered how relevant the Belgrove name is. I guess it's just relevant enough to prevent me from discarding the snippets I have for Dolway and the Aghnadarragh BELLs!
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Ah, I'd thought Aghnadarragh bad been accepted as the origin of your Bells. Oh well.
Yes, I love the Griffith's map on askaboutireland. The one that was on the OSI website was similar, but 30 years older. I think they took it down a few months ago to do work on it - apparently it was back up a couple of weeks ago - still not working for me though. Hopefully it'll come back eventually.
Good luck
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The Aghnadarragh BELLs were on the radar as I found a John Bell farming there as well, and I wondered if my BELLs had moved there after leaving Glenfield. However I have established that my John BELL never left the district, moving from the Glenfield farm into Crumlin town to live out his days.
It may be that we did come from Aghnadarrah at some point, but that is speculative at best at this point.
I now have a new worm in my can. While searching the name Susannah BELL (a name I picked up from the PRONI indexes relating to the land in Ballygortgarve), I found a birth record. This record names a Susannah BELL being born in Crumlin, Antrim in 1867, to an Alexander BELL and Isabella IRELAND. This is too late to be the Susannah BELL in the PRONI indexes (1822-1826) but it puts another male BELL in very close geographical and chronological proximity to John (b.ca.1793-d.1878).
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There was a Susannah Clements who married John Bell at Glenavy Parish Church on 25 July 1810. She was the daughter of William Clements of "Clements Mount" Ballydonaghy. Susannah's sister, Alicia Clements, married William Oakman of Pigeontown. John Bell is executor and/or witness on a number of old Memorial Deeds relating to the Oakman family.
There is an Agnes Bell, daughter of John Bell of Carnaughliss and Jane Eliza (surname unknown). Agnes married Samuel Johnston sometime before 1850 and the couple had a farm in Ballyminimore ("Hopevale") which had previously been in the Oakman family. I've wondered whether Agnes' father was any relation to John Bell and Susannah.
On a map of Aghnadarragh dated around 1833 there are adjoining properties with the following names: Allen Bell, William Bell, Dolway Bell, John Bell, William Robert Bell, and Edward Bell. These properties all border Ballyvollen where the McNeice's and Oakman's had farms.
The Limerick Chronical dated 4 May 1844 :
At Lough Neagh, on Friday, Alexander Charters, son of Mr John Charters, of Belfast, Mr Henry Nelson, son of Mr James Nelson, Ballinderry, and Mr Allen Bell, Glenavy-water-foot, were consigned to an early grave. They had gone on the lake on a pleasure excursion; and when rounding Ram's-island, the yacht capsized, in a sudden squall, and sunk,when the three young men perished.
I'm researching the Oakman families of Glenavy and seeking to learn whether there was a family connection between William Oakman of Pigeontown and the McNeices and Sloanes who were also there.
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Hi!
I am researching various Dalway/Dolway Clements as they are part of my direct line. The name is commonly used in this branch of the family and as there is a Susannah Clements that marries a Bell I believe this is where the name Dolway has been passed down.
The name originates from Edward Clements and Eleanor Dalway of Straid. Their Eldest son is named Dalway Clements and is passed down from then onwards.
I am aware of a Dolway Clements b1758 Glenavy who served in the military in the Oxford blues and ends up dying in Birmingham, England (details taken from Chelsea pensioner records). Given the dates he is possibly a brother of William Clements the father of Susannah.
Would love to hear if anything else if found on this and will continue to research.
Donna.
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Hi Donna,
I’m not directly related, but I am interested in what you know about the first Dalway Clements and his descendants.
Gilby
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Hi Gilby,
I've just done an all nighter looking at this actually so your timing is perfect while its fresh in my mind.
At the top of the Glenavy branch is a William Clements who dies 1810 Dalway Clements is named on his will as his son. Williams wife Alice dies 1812 at the age of 82 so born around 1729 in Glenavy.
I am currently trying to piece together how this William is connected to the original couple of Eleanor Dalway and Alexander Clements in Ballyhill. Their son Hercules has it in his will that he was at Clements Mount but is now of Carrickfergus showing the families are moving between the two locations. Eleanor and Dalway have a son called Dalway who has a son called William so this maybe a possibility but there are quite a few other branches of the tree to try and follow to see if there are other Williams.
Donna
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Would this student have been grandson of Edward Clements and Eleanor Dalway?
Alumni Dublinensis:
CLEMENTS, DALWAY, Pen. (Mr. Blackhall, Derry), May 21, 1708, aged 15; s. of Dalway, Coriarius; b. Maghrafelt, Co. Antrim.
I’m not sure if this means Magherafelt in Co L’Derry, or is there a Maghrafelt in Co Antrim?
A Dalway Clements of Ballymultrea (Co L’Derry) left a will dated 8th April 1721. Ballymultrea is not far to the southeast of Magherafelt.
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Betham will abstract:
Humphrey Tracy of Ballyneillbeg, Co Derry, Gent.
Dated 19th Jun 1729 – Proved 20th May 1738.
Son John.
Granddaughters Mildred, Elizabeth, Anne and Mary, daughters of John.
Son Francis.
Granddaughters Sarah, Anne, Mary, and Elizabeth, daughters of Francis.
Granchildren Whilewright Clements, Jean Leland, Elizabeth Homand [Howard?] and Sarah Homand.
Grandsons Joshua, Arthur, John and William Dawson.
Son James.
Sons-in-law John Homand, William Dawson, Dalway Clements, James Learson, Thomas Courtney, and William Leland.
Wife Joanna.
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Crossle Abstracts
Index to Exchequer Bills 1680-81
19b. Dallway Clements v. Ralph Smith. Bill 3 July 1680. No ans[wer].
This would mean Dalway Clements senior was probably born before 1660. So if his parents were Edward Clements and Eleanor Dalway, they were probably born before 1640. That would fit OK I think.
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The Dalway Clements on the Will of Tracy Humphrey is a different one to the Dalway Clements at Glenavy. There are several around as it became commonly used within the family.
Donna
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Hmm. Is there an earlier source of the name in the family then?
I've currently got the death of Edward Clements (who was married to Eleanor Dalway) as 1733, or have I got the wrong date for the wrong man?
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That would be Edward Clements the younger. Edward Clements Senior d1718 at Ballynure.
Not sure about the Hearth Roll, my eldest Dalway would be a baby at the time so not sure how that would work - would need to understand what the claim entailed. The Clements family come from England where the records are more solid and nothing shows for the name Dalway before the marriage of Edward Clements and Elinor Dalway.
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PRONI T700 p35 - Edward Clements - will extract
Will of Edward Clements of Clement’s Hill, Co Antrim, Esq.
Buried in Mullymore [could be Ballynure?]
Nephew Henry son of Francis Ellis
Waterhouse Crymble brother-in-law
Mrs Anne Maxwell wife of Arthur Maxwell of Drum
Arthir McNeill of Staud [Straid?]
Arthur French
Date 24th March 1718
Waterhouse Crymble was married to Millicent Clements, daughter of Edward Clements senior? So this would suggest it was Edward junior who died in c1718, possibly predeceasing his father?
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Actually, I just found the marriage licence for Edward Clements to "Ellinor Dalaway" which is dated 1678.
So those Clements of near Magherafelt I mentioned must have had some some other (earlier) reason for calling a son Dalway. And they may have had nothing to do with the Clements family of Straid. Sorry for the detour!
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Hi DonnaMarie,
The CLEMENTS and DALWAY names are very well known in Co. Antrim.
The former hailed from CLEMENTS' Hill in Ballynure parish (just East of Ballyclare town).
[Their famous "son" is Mark Twain (aka Samuel CLEMENS), the famous American author.]
John DALWAY was a soldier.
He came across to Carrickfergus as part of the army under the Earl of Essex (DEVEREUX) in 1573.
[DEVEREUX was Queen Elizabeth 1st's new fancy piece, after the Earl of Leicester died.
Her aim was to bring the Ulster Lords (O'NEILL, O'DONNELL, MacGUIRE) to heel.
He (famously) let her down, making a deal in the middle of a stream, then abandoning his post.]
DALWAY built DALWAY's Bawn near Carrickfergus.
Such was a fortified house/farm.
https://carrickfergushistory.co.uk/dalway-the-cassie-and-the-cattle-empire/
Built according to King JAMES (STEWART) 1st's specification for the 1612 Ulster Plantation.
[Notwithstanding that Co. Antrim was NOT officially part of this venture.
A deal having been made already with the Early of Antrim in 1605.]
Participants were awarded 1,000 acres of land, and the (newly created) title of Baronet.
[This gave King James leverage to threaten the obstreperous Barons with demotion/replacement.
Such "sat" on the the next higher rung of the aristocracy.
They were not happy about the regal succession, despite the unassailable DNA evidence .]
In return they had to promise to populate the lands with a prescribed density of "loyal" settlers.
Then also, importantly, to pay him £1,000!
[To replenish the regal coffers which Elizabeth had decimated during her "Irish Wars".]
Many soldiers were offered grants of lands as rewards for their efforts.
[To be interpreted as "in lieu of back pay".
Such was very common in many many military expeditions.]
Many lands within Co. Donegal were allocated to King James STEWART's relatives.
[If you were a soldier you were designated a "Servitor" and could get a minimum 2,000A.
If not, you were designated an "Undertaker" and could get (multiples of) 1,000A, pro rata.]
There were many native DOYLEs (Oops, correction: DALYs) there.
[Modern English Language spelling.]
Apparently there, and elsewhere, the DALWAY spelling is considered to be a "better" representation for the pronounciation of the original DÁLACH Gaelic surname.
Ref: The Book of Ulster Surnames, Robert BELL. ISBN 0-85640-405-5. P.49
Many folks went out West at the start of the Plantation, but then migrated Eastward.
[Due to the many engagements/setbacks involved in the 1641 Rebellion & then the Jacobite wars.
Such involved many scarperings across the sea to Scotland, then back again.
e.g. the ancestors of W.F. McKINNEY, the famous genealogist of Carnmoney.]
The Valley of the Lagan (S/W from Belfast) and the shores of Lough Neagh were areas of heavy English Settlement.
[The latter was renowned for its plethora of orchards. Known as "Little England".]
Capt. Jock
P.S Straid lies a few miles SE of Ballynure village, on the road from Ballyclare to Carrickfergus.
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Thank you Whuttle,
I've done quite a lot of work on them as a one name study following the family and have amassed and put together a lot of bits and pieces.
One group stays in the Ballynure area, there is a crypt in the old graveyard there with several stones. The other groups in Glenavy at Clements Mount through William Clements (I'm hoping to make it over to PRONI in the next few years as I wish to view the Adair papers which has a lot of items related to Clements Hill and might provide some clarification on who William is)
My own Branch moved to Belagherty in Ballinderry and continued to use the names Dolway/Dalway and also the first name of Wheelwright was introduced which has allowed me to track the family using surviving wills. I am informed there is still a Clements family on the farm in Ballinderry today.
Once I trace the lines downwards I may find some DNA evidence to tie everything together. Very happy to share information with anyone that needs it.
Donna
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Hi Gilby,
I have a string of wills that show how the Ballinderry/Magherafelt Clements are related to the Clements of Straid. The family starts making use of the name Wheelwright Clements which again is unusual and easier to pick out. Dalway Clements d1721 mentions his Grandson Wheelwright Clements in his will. My 4x Greatgrandfather is Wheelwright Clements born at Ballinderry to Dolway and Margaret.
Donna
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There is also a Dalway Clements on the 1659 Penders Census in the barony of Toome (Antrim) - this could be the same Dalway on the 1680 Hearth Roll suggesting as Gilby pointed out that the name Dalway Clements may predate the marriage of Elinor Dalway and Edward Clements.
I have a Dalway Clements at Trinity College Dublin. The Alumni records state he was born 1678 and his father was a Dalway Clements of Magherafelt Co. Antrim. Dalway b.1678.
As always it definitely bears further research and I will continue to collect any information I can find and try and work bloodlines downwards to see if there are any DNA ties.
Donna
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Hi Donna,
Interesting to hear that the Clements of Magherafelt and Ballinderry are linked to the Clements of Straid. That is good! Do you have any examples of wills I should look up?
There are several Clements wills at PRONI which are already on my “to do” list. I’m only interested because they were local to where I grew up. I’m also interested in the Dalway, Edmonston connections etc etc.
Looking at my tree, there was at least one earlier Clements / Dalway marriage. E.g. John Dalway of Bellahill (will dated 1687) mentions both his sister Elinor Clements (married to Edward Clements), and his cousin Andrew Clements. I think Andrew’s parents might have been Andrew Clements and Helen Dalway…?
How does this look as a potential tree for the Magherafelt branch?
Dalway CLEMENTS (c1660-c1721)
Dalway CLEMENTS (c1693-?) m. _____ TRACY
Wheelwright CLEMENTS (b. bef. 1729)
Gilby
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Ahhh Thats very interesting! A slightly earlier marriage would definitely explain how I've now got up above Elinor and Edward and the name Dalway is being used - I guess its a case of 'keeping it in the family' as was so oft the case. I cant find the name being used anywhere else and I still think it is born out of the Dalway surname somewhere.
Thank you for the information I will certainly delve into it!
Having moved things around I still need to prove conclusively that the lines are connected. I have the Ballindery line going back to a Dalway Clements (gent) at Ballinderry. I wonder if this might be the same Dalway mentioned in Penders census 1659 for the Barony of Toome the Dalway on the census is listed as Leut however so it may be yet another Dalway in area.
I thought I had the Dalway line sorted before as the gravestone of Elinor Dalway in Ballynure Graveyard is very commonly mistranscibed as d1628 rather than 1698. Having studied the photos - (I would love to go and see it to be completely sure) I think there is a wear mark below the 9 that has made it at a glance look like a number 2. I'm pretty sure its a wear mark as if you look at the rest of the stone the text is dead level and the bottom of this 2 is the only part that is out of line. Because of this previously I thought the Hearth Roll Dalway and the 1659 Penders Census Dalway fit as a child of Elinor and Edward but the movement of the date changed this.
There does seem to be a connection with Dublin as well, whether that is just because it was fashionable to be seen Im not sure. Dalway Clements who dies 1721 attends Trinity college there, I believe he then stays in the city as there is a newspaper article about a Chandlers shop and also John Bolton of the below mentioned wills is of Dublin. Elinor and Edward Dalway marry in Dublin.
If you drop me a private message I'd be happy to send you an invite so you can view what I have on ancestry. I have the associated wills attached on there.
Ballinderry linked wills
Dalway Clements 1721
Mary Humphrey 1738
John Bolton 1759
Glenavy Wills
William Clements 1810
William Clements 1818
See also Hercules Clements (Son of Elinor and Edward) 1751
I thought that William Clements might be related to Elinor and Edward with Hercules being around the area with them but then I have also found mention of a Christopher Clements will listed as 1668 in Glenavy.
Its definintely a puzzler and good for the brain cells! I feel some of the answers may be contained within the Adair papers at PRONI.
Thank you for helping me sound things out!
Donna
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Donna,
The spirit of Life drives all as usual ...
https://carrickfergushistory.co.uk/dalway-the-cassie-and-the-cattle-empire/
--------
Despite the king’s grant, Dalway still had to be cautious about external claims to his lands at this time.
In the early 1600s Englishman Baptist Jones held large swathes of land in Marshallstown as a tenant of Sir Arthur Chichester, but also lay claim to several hundred acres of Dalway’s land “across the mearing” in Kilroot Parish, which may have extended to the bawn.
This claim leaves its mark in modern day as the tiny townland of Crossmary.
This threat to Dalway’s land seems to have come to nothing.
Jones took over lease of lands belonging to the Worshipful Company of Vintners in Bellaghy in 1617 and is likely to have relocated there at this time.
He established his own bawn there (Bellaghy Bawn) in about 1619.
He later became head of the company and was knighted in 1621.
.
.
The last of the Dalways to live at the bawn – Marriot Robert Dalway and his family – emigrated to Australia in 1886, settling in Lorne, Victoria.
--------
Phew, 'tis a fair oul' story that you're unravelling there !
Capt. Jock
[Trawler of the murky depths & descendant of a long line of publicans.]
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Hi Donna,
I have seen the Clements/Dalway headstone in the flesh and I have a pretty good photo. I agree that the “1628” should be “1698”. It looks to me that someone later has scratched on the tail to the 9, and also carved 7 above the 8.
I think the History of Carrickfergus says she died in 1696.
Apart from anything else, it just wouldn’t make sense for Ellinor’s dates to be 1595-1628. The first John Dalway who founded the family died in 1615. Ellinor’s father would have been his grandnephew.
John Dalway the elder nephew of the original John Dalway did not come of age till after his uncle’s death. So he might have been born c1600. His daughter Helen could have been born c1620, and she could have had a son Dalway Clements born c1640. It is possible, but the timeline is a bit tight for Dalway on Prender’s census.
Capt. Jock, thanks for reminding us about that interesting article. If Time Team were still doing their thing I’d get them out to find the old bawn in Castletown – I’d love to know if there’s any trace of it.
Gilby
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Thank you for the confirmation of the headstone! I had figured out that the dates didnt match up to her ancestors and went back to look at the photos I could find online of the grave stone and just thought that 2 looked out and it was a 9.
From what I understand of Penders Census, it has a lengthy intro on the website I found it on, they dont actually know the dates it was carried out as that wasnt recorded at the time also with it being carried out by just a few people it likely took place over a number of years so the 1659 is an approx date on that document. It was quite heavy reading but thats what I took away from the information on it.
I'd really like to see the will of Edward Clements that is located with the Adair Papers and see if that shows any family names, I also believe the land deeds for Clements Hill are contained there as well.
What an episode of time team that would be!
Donna
Donna
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Gilby,
Yes, 'tis time to bring back the TT experience a.s.a.p. to Norn Iron.
[My old grandad used to act as marshall for it in the 1950-1960s, as well as for the go-karting!]
Only teasing - you meant the more "Earthy" stuff.
[Where there's muck there's brass (or hopefully gold)!]
This URL shows the geographical connection between
Dalway's Bawn & Castle Dobbs (near Ballycarry village / Carrickfergus town)
Castlehill (near Ballynure village).
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bpe8-Lbybks/TL1yrY7mG7I/AAAAAAAAASY/4ycfBWB8ksw/s1600/clements+hill.jpg
[Such was one of the many offerings produced from throwing ' "dalway's bawn" +map' in to a BING search.]
Pretty sure that the TT series has run its run.
[Though "The Big Dig" seems to be a follow on ...]
There were a few episodes from NI, most notably at (???) Dundrum Castle, O'Neill's Castle and Dunseverick (Iron Age roundhouses).
The Dundrum evacuation unexpectedly uncovered a "cashell" (an early Irish Christian church).
[Unfortunately, no "stash of cash" - the Leprechauns had moved the end of the rainbow elsewhere the day before.]
This was the place that John de COURCY established his first foothold in Ulster.
He was married to Affreca, daughter of the King of Man and the Isles.
[Expect (c.f. today's revelations from Harry & Meghan) that there was much speculation at that time about what colour of skin their offspring might proudly exhibit ...]
My legs have been slowly descending back in to Africa (the land of our ultimate origins) for years now.
[Probably due to too much imbibing of the Devil's Buttermilk!]
As a homage to Geneva, a city open and welcoming to the oppressed, Les Freres Papinot have released a new product (a strong dark beer) to celebrate BLM.
Long-life to Liberty!
https://calvinus.ch/en/our-beers/noire/
[Goodness knows how he got that face tan.
The only time I visited the city I couldn't even see the fountains, let alone the mountains!
So, after John KNOX's old church slammed their doors, I amused myself with exploring the souterains ...]
Such followed the death by drowning in the lake of a slave who was trying to escape from humiliating display in the City's market in 1556.
From the cathedral pulpit, CALVIN launched a vibrant call to make Geneva the world emblem of tolerance and respect for human dignity.
"Post Tenebras, Lux!" (Trans: "After the Darkness, Light!")
[Slogan of The Rennaissance & The Reformation(s).]
"Post Tenebras, Dignitas". (Trans: "After the Darkness, Dignity!")
[Slogan of CALVIN (?), Les Freres Papinot (and BLM sympathizers now?).]
BRILLIANT!
[Wish I'd been at the Product Marketing brainstorming meeting ...]
----
I talked to someone once who'd worked alongside the big TT fellow.
He was reported as having two overriding characteristics in the field:
a) Profligacy with Saxon swear words;
b) Spectacular rift valley clearing technique, using aerosol particles.
Other diggers vied to ensure that he kept his head in the sand and that they were situate upwind from him when he talked thru' his other major orifice!
Capt. Jock
P.S. There is as fine photo of Dalway's Bawn on P.15 in Ernie SCOTT's erudite A5-sized book on the local history:
"Ballynure, History and Happenings in the village over the past Four Hundred Years"
Ernest McAlister SCOTT
Shanway Press 2004 (Reprinted 2008). pp. 119
The caption there also refers to the Bellaghy Bawn, now a museum and tribute center to the poet Seamus HEANEY.
[Bellaghy is a townland lying roughly mid-way between Ballymena & Ballymoney, just West of the main road, within the parish of Rasharkin. Interesting to learn that the head of one of the London merchant companies (JONES) was based in Co. Antrim (such county, supposedly, NOT being part of the Plantation).]
P.P.S.
"The foundations of a castle built by John DALWAY, a cornet under Walter Devereux in Essex's army, are to be seen in Castletown, about 1 mile north east of Ballynure.
...
The castle was erected about 1609."
Ref: p.33
The Ordnance Survey Memoirs of Ireland. Vol.32
PARISHES OF COUNTY ANTRIM XII
1832~3, 1835~40
Ballynure and District
The Institute of Irish Studies
The Queen's University of Belfast
Pub. 1995
ISBN 0-85389-552-X PPI
Sounds just like a place that the Belfast Naturalist Field Club (?) might have visited on their sojourns. Joseph BIGGAR and William Fee McKINNEY were enthusiastic members. Check out Linenhall Library, Ulster Museum, newspapers ...?
Was it a (modest) castle or a fortified cattle enclosure (aka "bawn") ?
Did DALWAY not get around to finishing off the walls with whitewash as well as DOBBS?
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Thanks Capt. Jock. I would guess the "castle" was very similar to Dalway's Bawn at the other end of the cattle trail. It must have gone out of use fairly quickly since it seems to have disappeared by the 19thc. I think I read somewhere (probably the OS memoirs) that there was some evidence of remains of a wall in a farmyard in Castletown.
-
Gilby,
Yep, thats right.
(vol.32 p33 as above)
Guess it was known as "DALWAY's other bawn".
[Probably to stop him being being jibed with "DALWAY ... has only got one bawn".]
-----
Perhaps I was a tad harsh on old Phil of TT (who we all love of course!).
[I was only reporting what I heard from a colleague who had worked with him.
They, the other diggers, inspiringly thought that they performed best when he was outstanding in his (own) field.]
His accent would have fitted in well around Ballynure.
[Many of Elizabeth I's venturous captains hailed from the West Country (of England).
Such "twang" underlies the Belfast patois to this day.
e.g. Francis DRAKE, Walter RALEIGH & John CHICHESTER,
then his successor, his brother Arthur CHICHESTER.
The latter was granted extensive lands around Belfast.
His descendants became Lords Donegall.
Sir Francis CHICHESTER, first solo circumnavigator of the World,
hails from this family stable, near Barnstable in Devon.
[Official title in the peerage being "Inishowen and Fisherwick".
This latter deriving from the SKEFFINGTON family, Lords Masserene and Ferrard,
who'd married in to the CLOTWORTHYs at Antrim Castle.
Lord Donegall bought their estate/mansion in Staffordshire,
in the run up to the 1801 Union of the British/Irish Parliaments.
In order to sit in the British Parliament you had to own a "seat" within its lands.
The expense in buying/developing this Fisherwick holding bankrupted the Donegalls.
Their estate office / hunting lodge at Doagh (near Ballyclare) is named after it.
Interestingly, there is a small peninsula in Inishowen named Doagh.
Inishowen is the large peninsula lying to the West of Lough Foyle & beyond in Co. Donegal.
The CHICHESTERs acquired lands there after Cahir O'DOHERTY's disastrous uprising,
becoming the largest land holders in Ireland.]
https://www.theirishstory.com/2015/03/27/nineteenth-century-landlords-of-greater-buncrana/#.YF-a3dpxeUk
Ian Campbell Ross Jonathan SWIFT, the famous author of Gulliver's Travels,
started his "church" career as a prebendary priest minding the cure of Kilroot
preaching at the small (now ruined, CoI) church at Ballynure.
His father, a lawyer, a Royalist in the Civil War, hailed from Goodrich, Herefordshire.
He scarpered to Dublin to escape persecution, dying there just before his only son was born in late 1667.]
https://www.tcd.ie/trinitywriters/assets/pdf/Jonathan%20Swift%20Dec%2019%202015.pdf
https://en.geneastar.org/genealogy/jonathanswiftj/jonathan-swift
Capt. Jock
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Hi all hope you are well!
So I was contacted by a descendant of one Clement Bell yesterday who was wondering if there might be a tie between this individual and the Clements family of Clements Hill. Clement was born 1793 in Glenavy to a John Bell. (source Parish record)
So I've been digging through and come up with a bit of a theory that I thought I might get some opinions on.
I'm wondering if given ages Clement may be a brother of Dolway Bell (given that we have the above family names being used from the Clements family) the ages would certainly lend to that with Dolway born 1800 /1799.
Dolway has in his will one of the executors Benjamin Oakham. Benjamin Oakham is the son of William Oakham and Alicia Clements.
Alicia has a sister Susannah who marries a Johh Bell in 1810 a month after the death of her father William Clements.
What I am wondering is this. Would it be feasible that for some reason there was a block to Susannah and John being married while her father was alive. And would this mean that Dolway Bell and Clement Bell are children of the couple perhaps born out of wedlock.
I'm hoping to get across to Ireland next year and delve into some parish records if possible. I was just wondering what peoples thoughts were on the above as a working theory.
Donna x
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Hi Donna,
You may be right, but to me it sounds like too much of a leap for John Bell and Susannah Clements (m. 1810) to be the parents of Clements Bell (b. c1790) and Dalway Bell (b. c1799).
I think it is more likely John was another sibling of Clements and Dalway, and that John and Susannah were cousins. I quite often see marriages of daughters soon after the deaths of their fathers – perhaps there was pressure on the family finances.
John Bell (c1803-1879) of Carnaghliss had a son called Clements (b. c1850), so he probably fits into the family somewhere. I know of at least one none-Bell descendant of his who was done a y-DNA test, if you’re looking for a candidate for autosomal testing.
There’s also a Clements Bell of Carnaughliss born c1817, son of Alexander, who married Margaret Gibson in 1848. Where do they fit?
Gilby
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Since the name “Clements Bell” crops up a few times in the Bell family of Carnaghliss, I decided to look at them with the help of 1851 census records and gravestone inscriptions (I have photos).
Alexander BELL (c1742-1810) m. Mary ____ (?-1815)
Alexander BELL (c1781-?) m. (1800) Nancy ____?
Alexander BELL (c1813-?) m. (1842) Eliza ____?
David BELL (c1845-?)
Nancy BELL (c1847-?)
Alexander BELL (c1850-?)
David BELL (c1815-1909) m. (1860) Fanny ROBB (c1837-1922)
Agnes BELL (c1861-1923)
David BELL (1873-1957)
Clements BELL (1877-?)
George Clarke BELL (1881-1938)
Alexander BELL
Clements BELL (c1817-?) m. (1848) Margaret GIBSON
John BELL (c1803-1879) m. Jane Eliza ____?
Catherine BELL (c1832-1893) m. (1850) EDW ALEXANDER
Alexander BELL (c1833-1874)
Agnes BELL (c1835-1921) m. (1858) Samuel JOHNSTON
Eleanor BELL (c1836-?) m. (1860) David ARMSTRONG
Margaret BELL (c1838-1850)
Jane Elizabeth BELL (c1840-?) m. ____ MOORE
Samuel BELL (c1842-1882)
John BELL (c1842-1888) m. (1863) Harriett KIRKPATRICK
David BELL (c1846-1902)
Mary Susan BELL (c1846-?) m. Archibald MAIRS
Clements BELL (c1850-1915)
Robert BELL (c1856-1861)
William BELL (?-1885)
It seems likely that the second Alexander was a son of the 1st. And John Bell (c1803-1879) may have been a son or nephew of the second Alexander.
This would suggest the Clements name goes back at least as far as Nancy, and possibly back to Mary.
I’m not sure where these Bells sit geographically in relation to Clements Bell (born c1793) and Dalway Bell (born c1799)…?
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Clements Bell (b. 1793) was my 2x great-grandfather who lived in Ballyvorally Townland, Glenavy Parish. This is not terribly far from Carnaghliss which is in Killead Parish. I don't know the exact distance though.
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Carnaghliss townland to Ballyvorally townland (on the shore of Lough Neagh and west of Glenavy village) is approx 8 - 9 miles.
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/massereene-upper/glenavy/glenavy/ballyvorally/
Carnaghliss - https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4495142#map=13/54.6116/-6.1578
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I have a copy of the Glenavy Parish register for Clements Bell 1793 which says his father is a John bell. Unfortunately I cant check if Dolway Bell who lives close by and is of very similar age has the same fathers name as the person who was researching this only has the one page of the register. (Cant wait to get back over to Ireland and have a look through some things!)
That's a whole lot of Bells you found Gilby! There is also a Dolway Bell born 1836 in Ballinderry to a John Bell - which is where my line of Clements are so I do wonder if there is another connection going off there somewhere between the families or if this is just a coincidence.
Not a bad thought on John perhaps being an older sibling of Dolway and Clement again would be worth looking into on the register at PRONI.
Donna
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Clements Bell (b. 1793) was my 2x great-grandfather who lived in Ballyvorally Townland, Glenavy Parish. This is not terribly far from Carnaghliss which is in Killead Parish. I don't know the exact distance though.
I have a copy of the Glenavy Parish register for Clements Bell 1793 which says his father is a John bell.
Just to keep me right, are you both talking about the same person? Do you know who he married and what children he had?
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It turns out there was an even earlier “Clements Bell” who died in Boltnaconnell aged 82 in 1845:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Lower_Massereene/Killead/Boltnaconnell/22/
____ BELL
David BELL (c1761-1845)
Clements BELL (c1763-1845)
Clements BELL (c1800-1870) m. Jane HERON
William BELL (c1824-1878) m. (1865) Agnes QUIREY
Mary Jane BELL m. James ARCHER
Alexander BELL m. (1862) Elizabeth FULTON
Clements BELL (d. 1860)
William Sayers BELL (c1820-?) m. (1847) Elizabeth IRELAND
John Ireland BELL (c1848-?)
Clements BELL (c1849-1915)
Clementina BELL (c1827-1909) m. Samuel SUFFERN
William SUFFERN
Sarah SUFFERN
Mary SUFFERN
Violet SUFFEN
Clements BELL (c1800-1870) moved to Ballyearl. His son William BELL named his “uncle” William Sayers BELL as an executor. However, there is a big age difference, so if I’ve got this right then the first Clements probably had two wives, and may have had a load of other children.
Interestingly, William Sayers Bell said in the 1901 census that he was born “in Belfast”. Here are a few other Boltnaconnell Bells I haven’t been able to place yet…
William BELL m. ____?
Joseph BELL (c1802-?), schoolmaster m. (1849) Agnes HAWTHORN
David BELL m. Nancy CATHCART
Agnes BELL m. (1827) Daniel REA
Jane BELL m. (1828) Samuel COURTNEY
David BELL m. (1830) Mary HINDMAN
The last family is from the Killead Presbyterian marriage register.
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Dolway has in his will one of the executors Benjamin Oakham. Benjamin Oakham is the son of William Oakham and Alicia Clements.
Is this the Benjamin OAKMAN who married Jane BULLICK in 1849?
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Clements Bell (b. 1793) was my 2x great-grandfather who lived in Ballyvorally Townland, Glenavy Parish. This is not terribly far from Carnaghliss which is in Killead Parish. I don't know the exact distance though.
I have a copy of the Glenavy Parish register for Clements Bell 1793 which says his father is a John bell.
Just to keep me right, are you both talking about the same person? Do you know who he married and what children he had?
Yes, I believe Donna & I are talking about the same Clements Bell b. 1793 in Ballyvorally Townland, Glenavy Parish. This Clements moved to Gray County, Ontario in 1846 and died there. It seems reasonable that he would be related to all these other Clements Bells. I just haven't found the link.
No, I don't know his wife's name. The only other child that I know he had for sure was a sister, Frances Bell, b. 1795.
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I forgot to include this in my previous reply.
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/41928045/john_bell_leap_county_antrim/?xid=637
So apparently Clements had a sister or a niece named Margaret b. 1820, daughter of John Bell of Leap, County Antrim which I know was the home of my 2x great-grandfather, Clements Bell. 27 years seems like quite a spread between the birth of Clements, then his sister, Frances, and then this Margaret. Maybe Clements had a brother named John who inherited the home named Leap and this is his daughter.
Clements father, John Bell, could be either of these ones listed as being from Glenavy in the Will Index for 1843 and 1846. Anyone have the capability of looking up what the Will actually said?
Ireland, Indexes to Wills, Probate Administration, Marriage Bonds and Licences, 1591-1866
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Yes the same Clements Bell I believe.
He married Sarah Ann Palmer dau of Skeffington Palmer 7th Mar 1893 at St. Catherines Church of Ireland, Killead. They later Emigrated to Canada in 1846.
Children :-
Jane 1839
Anna Marie 1841
Franc 1843
Walter 1845
Catherine Lucinda 1848
Skeffington 1850
Clementina 1852 - 1854
Clementina Caroline 1855
Sarah Elizabeth 1857
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Clements father, John Bell, could be either of these ones listed as being from Glenavy in the Will Index for 1843 and 1846. Anyone have the capability of looking up what the Will actually said?
Ireland, Indexes to Wills, Probate Administration, Marriage Bonds and Licences, 1591-1866
I'm hoping to pop over sometime soon when work and Covid allows. Not all the wills listed in the index have survived sadly but I will do a look up if no one else gets to it first.
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Neither of those John Bell wills show up on the Irish Will Index (1484-1858) which lists most surviving wills, so the chances of finding a copy are very slim. (I checked the PRONI name search too.)
Here are a few random marriage snippets I came across. I think the first one could refer to Clements BELL and Jane HERON who later settled in Ballyearl.
Belfast Newsletter, 7th Mar 1828:
On the 4th inst. by the Rev. Joseph McKee, Mr. CLEMENTS BELL, Merchant, Belfast, to JANE, relict of the late Mr. David Drennan, Killealy, Killead.
Belfast Newsletter, 20th Jun 1895:
BELL-PATTON – June 18, at First Larne Presbyterian Church, by the Rev. J. L. Donaghy, Clements, eldest son of the late Alexander Bell, Carntall, Carnmoney, to Annie, eldest surviving daughter of William Patton, Larne.
Belfast Newsletter, 15th Jun 1901:
BELL-FRETHEY – June 4, 1901, at the Parish Church, Cairncastle, by the Rev. Greene, Clements Bell, Larne, to Mary Elizabeth, eldest daughter of James Frethey, Esq., Newton Abbot, Devon.
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In 1888, William SUFFERN (son of Samuel SUFFERN and Clementina BELL) married Jane Eliza JOHNSTON, daughter of Samuel JOHNSTON.
Anyone know if that is the same Samuel JOHNSTON (of Hopevale) who was married to Agnes BELL?
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Posted by: DonnaMarie1982
Reply #54 on: Sunday 18 July 21 -
The discussion regarding whether my 2x great-grandfather, Clements Bell, could be a brother of Dolway Bell of BellGrove, Glenavy Parish - I found the Directory of Ulster Doctors states Dolway was buried in the Glenavy Roman Catholic Graveyard which indicates that he was of that faith. My Clements Bell was a member of the Glenavy Church of Ireland. So wouldn't that likely mean they were not from the same family?
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I've had lots of instances of mixed religion families within my tree so I wouldn't rule anything out based on that. People commonly converted - especially if marrying someone who fell within a different religious group.
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I’m not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I came across this will last night among the Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills (on Ancestry). Rough transcript...
In the name of God Amen I John Clements of the parish of Camlin and the county of Antrim being of sound mind and judgement do make and constitute this to be my last will and testament in manner following. First I leave my soul into the hands of God my creator and my body to the earth. Next I leave and bequeath to my father and mother the one half of such sum or sums as shall be due to me either in wages or prize money from the Ranger [?] ?..? Ship commanded by captain ?..? Barty [?]. Next I leave and bequeath the other half of said sum to my brother Dolway. I leave 5 shillings and five pence sterling and the remainder of said sum to be equally divided among my other brother and sisters only in allowing my sister Margaret to possess double portion or share of said sum. Next I leave and bequeath all the remainder of the goods and chattels I am possessed of to my father. I also nominate and appoint William Clements senior and William Clements junior to the executors of this my will and testament and acknowledge this as such and relinquish all former wills by me made. Dated this 21st day of February 1784. John Clements. Signed sealed and acknowledged in presence of David Gordon, Robert Irwin, John Irwin.
Proved at London on 16th Aug 1784. Granted to William Clements the elder, father of deceased, reserving right of William Clements junior, brother of deceased.
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Thank you Gilby!
Not quite sure where this one fits yet but going to work on it!
Much appreciated.
Donna
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Since the name “Clements Bell” crops up a few times in the Bell family of Carnaghliss, I decided to look at them with the help of 1851 census records and gravestone inscriptions (I have photos)......
Hi Gilby,
I am researching my Catholic ancestors in Carnaughliss also, specifically Edward Magee (my Gx3 grandfather) and his neighbour Philip Dean (Gx2 grandfather).
Can I ask which graveyards you found Bell family inscriptions in?
I believe that the Magee's and Dean's were mostly buried at Hannahstown.
From the Griffith's Valuation there were some 40 tenements/households in the Townland at the time.
I am wondering if St. Joseph's (Htown) was their main place of worship or were there other churches nearby?
I should mention I live in Poland so onsite visits in Antrim are not an option for me at the moment! :-)
Philip Donnelly
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Hi Philip,
The Bells of Carnaughliss are buried at Carmavy Graveyard, located here:
https://goo.gl/maps/cA6WKBHfbAJgEBPZ8
I visited in 2015 and photographed every headstone. I also have a 1993 survey report. Unfortunately there are no Magees/McGees or Deans.
I’m afraid I’ve never been to Hannahstown graveyard.
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Hi Philip,
The Bells of Carnaughliss are buried at Carmavy Graveyard,
Unfortunately there are no Magees/McGees or Deans.
Hi Matthew.
That's a beautiful old graveyard and apparently with a lot of interesting history attached to it.
Thanks for confirming that none of my Magee-Dean ancestors are there.
Philip
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Just because there are no headstones for the family does not mean they weren't buried there.
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Just because there are no headstones for the family does not mean they weren't buried there.
A very good point. Known as a protestant graveyard today but I believe that Catholics were buried there in the early days.
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I am researching a Margaret Bell from Glenavy Co Antrim born 20/10/1784. She Married a William Nicholls from nearby Glenead. The had a large family including one son Arthur Bell Nicholls who was a minister in the Anglican Vhurch and married Charlotte Bronte. Margaret Bell’s brother was Allen Bell, who was headmaster of a boys school in Banagher Co.Offaly. He adopted his nephew already referred to Arthur Nicholls Bell. Anyone has knowledge of this particular family please? J. Keane
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Hi Joe,
Welcome to Rootschat. One of my 3x great uncles (Alexander King STEVENSON) married Mary Frances NICHOLL in 1891. She was apparently daughter of James NICHOLL and Fanny MOLYNEAUX.
I was told that Mary Frances was a half-sister of Arthur Bell NICHOLL. However, some Googling suggested his father was William NICHOLL, as you mentioned. So now I’m not sure what the connection is…
Gilby
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Reply to Gilby post 648. Just a quick reply. It can be quite difficult to establish facts this far back in time. William Nicholls after his first wife Margaret Bell died, remarried and had a large family second time round. All that may be said is that there would be a half sister. I will look at my files later to see if there is any further information. I do know that Kilead cemetery was visited by people from the Bronte Society and William Nicholls grave is very visible in that graveyard. I am afraid I can be of little help
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Just a little extra on Dalway who dies 1721. I have been sent his burial record from the Parish records at St Swithens in Magherafelt. On this record he is referred to at Lieut Dalway which ties nicely with the Dalway in the aforementioned penders census.
Im heading over to Belfast next week and will do some further digging.
Donna
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Clements father, John Bell, could be either of these ones listed as being from Glenavy in the Will Index for 1843 and 1846. Anyone have the capability of looking up what the Will actually said?
Ireland, Indexes to Wills, Probate Administration, Marriage Bonds and Licences, 1591-1866
I'm hoping to pop over sometime soon when work and Covid allows. Not all the wills listed in the index have survived sadly but I will do a look up if no one else gets to it first.
Donna Marie -
If you make it to Belfast, please remember to look up my Clements Bell (b. 1793) from The Leap, Ballyvorally, Glenavy, County Antrim and his father, John Bell who may have died in 1843 or 1846 as listed in the Index to Wills, 1591-1866. If you wouldn't mind checking the baptism and marriage records for St. Aidan's COI for other children of John Bell. I'm still uncertain where John Bell fits in to all the other Bells from Aghnadarragh, Ballyvorally and Killead. Any help would be so appreciated!!
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Hi!
Did you have a document number? I dont seem to be getting anything when I pop it in the search. I may not have time to do the Parish records on this occasion as Im just there for the day. :)
Most of the wills were destroyed unfortunately so the original may not exist. If you email Proni they may be able to help verify.
Donna
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I'm assuming you mean for the Will? Not sure about a documentary number. It is Eire, R.B. 877, Diocese - Connor, District Registry Belfast, Bay 1A, Tray 79
I totally understand your time contraints!
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I have tracked down a descendant of Robert Bell of Glenfield, and they are a DNA match with 6 out of 15 descendants of Allen Bell and his sister Catherine Bell.
This probably isn't enough to prove that my John Bell is the brother of Robert and Henry Bell of Glenfield, but he is definitely related to them somehow.
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I'm assuming you mean for the Will? Not sure about a documentary number. It is Eire, R.B. 877, Diocese - Connor, District Registry Belfast, Bay 1A, Tray 79
I totally understand your time contraints!
Where did you find that reference number? It may refer to a location which which no longer exists. I can't see a surviving will listed in either the 1484-1858 Index (available on Findmypast) or the PRONI Name Search:
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/ProniNames_IE/ResultDetails.aspx
The latter does have Clements Bell of Killead (1845) but note the comment at the bottom:
The original documents referred to in this index DO NOT exist. No further information, other than that recorded above, has survived.
Unfortunately the chances are it went up in smoke along with most of the other wills in 1922.
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Just a little extra on Dalway who dies 1721. I have been sent his burial record from the Parish records at St Swithens in Magherafelt. On this record he is referred to at Lieut Dalway which ties nicely with the Dalway in the aforementioned penders census.
Nice! Do you happen to have a transcript of what exactly it says?
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Where did you find that reference number? It may refer to a location which which no longer exists. I can't see a surviving will listed in either the 1484-1858 Index (available on Findmypast) or the PRONI Name Search:
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/ProniNames_IE/ResultDetails.aspx
Donna Marie - Here is the web address but you are right, it says at the bottom of these wills that they did not survive. Thanks for your help.
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/447649:62077?ssrc=pt&tid=57782031&pid=32260690740
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Dalway 1721 Burial Record from St.Swithens, Magherafelt Parish Register.
I -think- it says he was buried in 'ye church' but not 100% sure. The photo was sent to me so I dont have a clearer copy at present.
Donna
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Hi Donna
Have a great trip. I see Gilby did not mention it but the EDW Alexander who married Catherine Bell, daughter of John, at Killead on 11 Apr 1850 was related to both Gilby and I. EDW does not stand for Edward but for Ezekiel D Wiley Alexander, son of Isabel Wiley and Samuel Alexander of Umgall Templepatrick. EDW Alexander was a cousin of my 2x gt grandfather.
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I will thank you! Cant wait to have a nose around at some documents and I have some Glenarvy stuff on my wish list as well - will see what i can manage to get through.
It would be interesting to find out if there is a connection with the Clements family in that area, the marriage of a Susannah Clements to a Bell and then the names Clements Bell and Dalway Bell appearing .... I'm fairly sure we will all turn out to be distant cousins somewhere along the line.
Donna
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PRONI ref D2025-1 dated June 11, 1822 "A memorial of an intended deed of conveyance" was witnessed by Dolway Bell and Arthur Bell both of Glenfield.
All PRONI references starting with D2025 seem to be related to the Glenfield property.
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I have received information from a representative of St Aidans Church, of the following baptisms:
Page 1. Glenavy C/I Baptisms (Proni ref MIC1/44/1
Baptised 20th Dec 1840 Anne ND (natural daughter) of John Bell Ballytrummery and Margaret Cormican of Femore
Baptised 26th Dec 1841 Allen NS (natural son) of John Bell and Margaret Cormican both of Ballytromery.
Baptised 23rd April 1843 Catherine ND (natural daughter) of John Bell and Margaret Cormican of Ballytromery.
Baptised 17th March 1844 John NS (natural son) of John Bell and Margaret Cormican of Ballytromery
These are the Allen, Catherine and John that came to New Zealand in the early to mid 1860s.
My father is a direct male descendant of Allen, and has done a Y-111 DNA test if anyone is interested.
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Hi All,
Did my first run at PRONI and have maybe a work in progress a tentative theory on the Bell/Clements connection which would hold if Dolway Bell is indeed the son of Susannah Clements and John Bell.
Susannah's father was William Clements (we know this from her fathers will d.1810) Susannah also has a brother called Dolway as this is a common Clements family name for this Branch.
At PRONI I have found some further wills in the Stewart Kennedy Notebook. There is a Benjamin Clements d.1738 Wife Elizabeth. Son William Clements (the above William?). Daughters Sara, Jane, Elizabeth Mary. Brother in Law Henry Clements (this may be the key to anchoring this bit down as it suggests one of Benjamins sisters may have married a Clements and I doubt Clements to Clements marriage will be that common )
There is then a will for a John Clements (gent) date 1712 (time of writing no proved date) who has sons Benjamin and John and Abraham. Daughter Martha and Susan. wife Jean.
Edward Clements and Elinor Dalway of Clements Hill have a son John who I havent managed to trace. Could it be the above John?
Just some thoughts.
Donna
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Hi Philip,
The Bells of Carnaughliss are buried at Carmavy Graveyard, located here:
https://goo.gl/maps/cA6WKBHfbAJgEBPZ8
I visited in 2015 and photographed every headstone. I also have a 1993 survey report. Unfortunately there are no Magees/McGees or Deans.
I’m afraid I’ve never been to Hannahstown graveyard.
I would be interested in the information about the headstones there. I plan to visit this summer, as I think my great-great-grandfather might well be there: Clements W. Bell (1769-1845).
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It turns out there was an even earlier “Clements Bell” who died in Boltnaconnell aged 82 in 1845:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Lower_Massereene/Killead/Boltnaconnell/22/
____ BELL
David BELL (c1761-1845)
Clements BELL (c1763-1845)
Clements BELL (c1800-1870) m. Jane HERON
William BELL (c1824-1878) m. (1865) Agnes QUIREY
Mary Jane BELL m. James ARCHER
Alexander BELL m. (1862) Elizabeth FULTON
Clements BELL (d. 1860)
William Sayers BELL (c1820-?) m. (1847) Elizabeth IRELAND
John Ireland BELL (c1848-?)
Clements BELL (c1849-1915)
Clementina BELL (c1827-1909) m. Samuel SUFFERN
William SUFFERN
Sarah SUFFERN
Mary SUFFERN
Violet SUFFEN
Clements BELL (c1800-1870) moved to Ballyearl. His son William BELL named his “uncle” William Sayers BELL as an executor. However, there is a big age difference, so if I’ve got this right then the first Clements probably had two wives, and may have had a load of other children.
Interestingly, William Sayers Bell said in the 1901 census that he was born “in Belfast”. Here are a few other Boltnaconnell Bells I haven’t been able to place yet…
William BELL m. ____?
Joseph BELL (c1802-?), schoolmaster m. (1849) Agnes HAWTHORN
David BELL m. Nancy CATHCART
Agnes BELL m. (1827) Daniel REA
Jane BELL m. (1828) Samuel COURTNEY
David BELL m. (1830) Mary HINDMAN
The last family is from the Killead Presbyterian marriage register.
These are my relatives! My great-grandfather was Edward Alexander Bell (b. 1824), son of Clements W. Bell (1769-1845). His siblings were William Bell, John Bell and Clementina Bell, I believe. They are from near Dundrod, Crumlin, listed also as Boltnaconnell, Killead Parish, Carnaghliss Townland, Aghnadarragh, in County Antrim, Northern Ireland, which is very near Glenavy. David Bell was the brother of Clements W. Bell, acc. to a census record.
Edward Alexander Bell married Leah Kennedy, whose family lived in Dundrod, Crumlin, acc. to letters from Jane Kennedy in the 1920s. Edward and Leah Bell immigrated to the United States in the 1840s.
I would appreciate any information you might have about the families.
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I realise that this thread is quite old now but have only just stumbled upon it.
I am not sure if my Bells fit into this at all but I believe that my 4 x great grandfather, John Bell, who was from Ballymacrevan, Ballinderry, Upper Massareene, Antrim, may have some connection with this family.
He was born in 1796 and married a lady named Susannah in about 1821. I cannot trace a marriage. John Bell died in 1846. Susannah was born in 1807 and died 19/04/1839, aged 31.
I have traced the following children: William, born 1826, Rebecca, born 1827, Arthur, born in 1828, Conway, born 1829 and died 1830, aged 9 months, Conway, born 1830, Ezekiel F, born 1832, Julianna, born 1834, (my 3 x great grandmother), James, born 1835, Dolway, born 1836, Emma, born in 1837, and Edwin John, born in 1839. There may also have been an older son, named George, born in about 1822, (although Susannah would have been very young to have been giving birth in 1822).
I have a DNA match with someone descended from George Bell.
If anyone has any thoughts on how, (or if), my Bells fit into this family I would be grateful if you could please enlighten me!
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Hi tld,
I don’t think there is a headstone in Carmavy for the Clements Bell who died in 1845. The only thing I can add is that I think his wife was probably Margaret Sayers, as per this marriage record from Killead Presbyterian (PRONI CR3/3/1):
13th Apr 1838
Kennedy Hunter, son of Kennedy Hunter and Jane McNully, Killealy
Sarah Alexander Bell, daughter of Clements Bell and Margt Sayers, Killealy
Wm McIhath and Jno Morrison
Thanks for telling us about Edward Alexander Bell. Would you be able to provide a bit more detail about the sources which detail his wife and siblings?
Gilby
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Hi Corinthian,
My first thought is that your John Bell and wife Susannah are the John Bell and Susannah Clements mentioned by oakman-ireland in reply #30 of this thread (page 4). If they had a son called Dolway, it may fit with the Clements-Dalway theory Donna was working on (e.g. see post #94 on the previous page).
However, the dates don’t look like they match up. What are the sources for John and Susannah’s family?
Gilby
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Last year I went to PRONI looking for evidence that John Bell of Ballytrummery and John Bell of Glenfield were the same man. I found that they were not.
I have DNA matches that descend from Robert Bell of Glenfield (brother) so it seemed plausible.
What I did find was that John Bell of Ballytrummery (father of Allen Bell of Crumlin) was buried at Glenavy September 5, 1843 aged 64. In 1839 December 2, there is a burial record for Susan wife of John Bell of Ballytrummery aged 67.
The Calendar of Wills index has a listing for John Bell Glenavy 1843, but the will has not survived.
Probate was granted to Benjamin Oakman September 26, 1845.
1842 A deed: Memorial of Indented Deed of settlement and assignment dated 1st August 1833, and made between William Oakman of Pigeonstown Co Antrim farmer 1st part, and James Shubridge of Belfast Co Antrim Victualler and Susanna Shubridge otherwise Oakman his wife daughter of sd Wm Oakman 2nd part, and John Bell of Ballytrummery in said county of Antrim farmer and John Oakman of Pigeonstown in said County Farmer as Trustees of said Susanna Shubridge of the 3rd part.....
1846 January 26 Bankrupt and Insolvent Calendar : Assignees appointed to Insolvents Estate - In the matter of John Bell of Ballytrummery county Antrim farmer - Assignee Appointed - John Bell, Glenfield, near Crumlin, county Antrim, Farmer, in room of Bennett McGarry, removed.
Apart from the 2 John Bells being different men, I'm not too sure what to make of the rest of it. Did not notice a marriage for John and Susan, or if they had any children.
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Also:
1845 March 15, in the Vindicator:
English vs Oakman, Executor of John Bell
Mr Crozier opened the pleadings. The declaration contained two counts, and damages were laid at 300l. Defendant pleaded plene administravit.
Mr Nelson stated the plaintiffs case. This was an action brought to recover the sum of 45l, the amount of a promissory note passed by the testator to the defendant in the year 1842.
Several witnesses were produced, who proved that the defendant had received assets of the testator to the value of about 290l.
For the defence, it was relied on that the defendant was entitled to retain out of the assets a salary, which he claimed, as the steward and manager of the testator; and a number of witnesses were produced, who proved that the defendant had lived with the testator. and had assisted him in the management of his farm. It was also proved that the defendant had made payments to the amount of £230 on account of debts due by the testator at the time of his death.
His Lordship charged the jury; and in a few minutes, they brought in a verdict for the plaintiff, £45 damages, and 6d costs.
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I have DNA matches also with 5 descendants of Clements Bell and Sarah Ann Palmer, and 3 descendants of Judge Alexander McCullough Bell.
I am up to 10 DNA matches now with descendants of Robert Bell of Glenfield. None of these are suitable for a Y-DNA test though.
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Hi Gilby,
I though that too initially and then realised that the dates did not match.
According to the 'Irish Genealogy on the NET Parish: Ballinderry' website John Bell died in the spring of 1846 of 'Fever', aged 50.
Also from Glenavy Monument Inscriptions: 'Erected by John Bell of Ballinderry in memory of his dearly beloved wife Susanna who departed this life 19th April 1839 aged 31. Robert Bell died November 1890 also his sister Margaret died April 1890 also of their son Conway aged 9 months'. I don't know if the years of the death of Robert Bell and his sister, Margaret, are correct, or how they connect with John Bell, (possibly siblings, but then year of death must be incorrect??). Conway was a son of John and Susanna who was born in 1829 and who died in 1830, (they went on to name another son Conway later on in 1830). I have been unable to trace their deaths via the Irishgenealogy.ie website.
The dates for his children were sourced from the Ulster Historical Foundation and Family Search.org.
I have traced son, Arthur, in the 1851 census taken on 30/03/1851, (census). (I think this was also sourced from the 'Irish Genealogy on the NET Parish: Ballinderry' website). Arthur is living in BallyMcrevan Townland, Ballinderry, County Antrim, unmarried, aged 22. Also in the household is sister, Emma, aged 14, and brother, Edward (Edwin), aged 11. Father, John Bell, is recorded as having previously lived in the household, before he died, in the spring of 1846, aged 50, of fever. It is also recorded that a servant, (housemaid), named Elizabeth Winington, aged 60, had previously lived at the address. She died in the spring of 1847, of fever. Conway Fitzgerald, aged 76, who was a friend, also died, aged 76. He died in the winter of 1850, of fever. He is recorded as a farmer and friend.
I have been unable to trace any further information regarding Arthur but do know what happened to some of his other children.
I think that the George Bell that I have a DNA match with may be another son of my John Bell and his wife Susannah, born in about 1821.
Coreen
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Have found some Court of Chancery Records, 1633-1851, for some of my Bells. Not quite sure if I understand them correctly. The court date is 18/08/1845. Bill amended 31/12/1845. George Bell and William Bell an?? Infant by George his (who is this referring to??) grandsons?? deceased 1845. Ans' Rebecca Bell Arthur Bell Conway Bell & Elezth Bell, (Ezekiel??), Juliana Bell, James Bell, Emma Bell and Edwin John Bell Infants by Henry Darley Eagle one of the clerks in court their guardian 27/05/1846. No mention of Dolway so he probably died very young.
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Have found some Court of Chancery Records, 1633-1851, for some of my Bells. Not quite sure if I understand them correctly. The court date is 18/08/1845. Bill amended 31/12/1845. George Bell and William Bell an?? Infant by George his (who is this referring to??) grandsons?? deceased 1845. Ans' Rebecca Bell Arthur Bell Conway Bell & Elezth Bell, (Ezekiel??), Juliana Bell, James Bell, Emma Bell and Edwin John Bell Infants by Henry Darley Eagle one of the clerks in court their guardian 27/05/1846. No mention of Dolway so he probably died very young.
The bit referring to George and William Bell is:
Ansr George Bell & Wm Bell an infant by sd George his Guardn
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SpudKiwi,
Do you have the full ROD reference for the two deeds you mentioned?
You mentioned a John Bell of Ballytromery who died in 1843, and then there was a John Bell of same place who was bankrupt in 1846. One of them was involved with William Oakman of Pigeontown in 1842 which would fit with them being connected via their wives, e.g. the family could look something like this…?
--- John Bell (c1779-1843) married (1810) Susannah Clements (c1772-1839)
------ John Bell (alive in 1846) married Margaret Cormican
--------- Anne Bell (b. c1840)
--------- Allen Bell (b. c1841)
--------- Catherine Bell (b. c1843)
--------- John Bell (b. c1844)
Gilby
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I didn’t have John Bell of Glenfield on my tree so I had a look for newspaper notices…
Northern Whig, 09 March 1843:
EXTENSIVE FORGERIES
Robert Bell was then given in charge to the jury, indicted with having forged a bill of exchange, for 330l., the acceptance of John Bell.
John Millar, examined --- I know the prisoner at the bar, and I know John Bell, his brother. John Bell resides at Glenfield, near Crumlin. I recollect the prisoner coming to me, in December, 1841. He said he was about making some purchases, and asked me if I would discount a bill. This was at Ballymena. I said I would, if I would get a good acceptance. I discounted the bill [produced], and gave him the money. I knew John Bell. I took that bill as the genuine acceptance of John Bell, of Glenfield.
…….
John Bell, examined by Mr. WHITESIDE --- I am John Bell, of Glenfield. The prisoner is my brother. [The bill was here handed to witness.] The name of John Bell, the acceptor of this bill, is not in my handwriting. I did not give authority to any person to write my name on the bill. I never saw the bill till it was dishonoured by Mr. Millar. I could not swear by whim the name of the drawer [?] was written. ……. I said to my brother, that I would not go security for him, as I had lost too much by doing such things for Henry (another brother) already. …….. I am not now in so good circumstances as I was some time ago. I have been thrown into immense losses.
Belfast News-Letter, 16 October 1849:
Oct. 5, at the advanced age of 88 years, Mrs. Bell, of Glenfield, Crumlin.
Weekly Examiner (Belfast), 23 November 1878:
BELL – November 16, at Crumlin, John Bell, late of Glenfield, aged 88 years.
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1833 – Tithe Applotment Book
Ballymacrevin [Ballymacrevan, Ballinderry]
1. John Gawley
2. William Thompson
3. John Bell & Conway Fitzgerald
4. Joseph Patterson
5. Conway Fitzgerald or Richd Bell
6. Josh & Robt Patterson
Here’s a link to the 1851 census record, for reference:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Upper_Massereene/Ballinderry/Ballymacraven/28/
Note Arthur Bell farmed the land with Mr. Fitzgerald, suggesting they were joint tenants.
Ballinderry Church of Ireland Baptisms (on Rootsireland, from UHF):
Rebecca Bell - 4th Mar 1827 - parents John Bell and Susanna
Arthur Bell - 22nd Jul 1828 - parents John Bell and Susanna
Conway Bell - 11th Oct 1829 - parents John Bell and Susanna
Conway Bell - 5th Nov 1830 - parents John Bell and Susanna
James Bell - 1st Jun 1835 - parents John Bell and Susanna
Dolway Bell - 21st Apr 1836 - parents John Bell and Susannah
A Conway Bell of Aghnadarragh married Margaret McNeece of Pigeontown in Glenavy CoI in 1817 (UHF). There was a will proved in 1805 for a Conway Fitzgerald of Glenavy, so the Conway name goes back a few generations.
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SpudKiwi,
Do you have the full ROD reference for the two deeds you mentioned?
Sorry, I dont know what a ROD reference is, but the PRONI reference is T956/126.
FYI Susanna Oakman Shubridge, wife of James Shubridge, died May 12 1838 aged 28. Belfast Newsletter May 18 1838 pg 2.
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Thanks Gilby, it's beginning to make a bit more sense now. George seems to have been the eldest child of John and Susannah Bell. William Bell died in 1845, when he would have been aged about 19. Unsure why George was named as the guardian of the children as father, John, did not die until 1845, unless John was incapacitated.
I believe my Conway Bell emigrated to USA and died 23/02/1905, aged 75 years, 3 months and 26 days, (should be 74 years). Conway is recorded as single. Place of death recorded both as Cleveland, Cuyahoga, Ohio, USA and Pittsburgh City, Pennsylvania. COD was Uremic Poisoning. Was buried 24/02/1905 at Woodland Cemetery in Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Ohio. Parents recorded as James, (should be John), and Susannah Bell.
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Was buried 24/02/1905 at Woodland Cemetery in Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Ohio.
FindaGrave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/98812694/conway-bell
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Thanks for the link. I have had another look at the Chancery Record and I don't now think it states that William is deceased it is a date: 5th December 1845. Maybe the Bill was amended because William had reached his majority??
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SpudKiwi,
Do you have the full ROD reference for the two deeds you mentioned?
Sorry, I dont know what a ROD reference is, but the PRONI reference is T956/126.
FYI Susanna Oakman Shubridge, wife of James Shubridge, died May 12 1838 aged 28. Belfast Newsletter May 18 1838 pg 2.
Ah, I've spent too much time looking at the Registry of Deeds (ROD) recently, so I assumed that's where you got it from! Thanks for the PRONI reference and the notice of Susanna's death.
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The Chancery case showed I was missing some baptisms, so I have updated my list…
Ballinderry Church of Ireland Baptisms (on Rootsireland, from UHF):
William Bell - 19th Mar 1826 - parents John Bell and Susan
Rebecca Bell - 4th Mar 1827 - parents John Bell and Susanna
Arthur Bell - 22nd Ju 1828 - parents John Bell and Susanna
Conway Bell - 11th Oct 1829 - parents John Bell and Susanna
Conway Bell - 5th Nov 1830 - parents John Bell and Susanna
Ezekiel Bell - 27th May 1832 - parents John Bell and Susan
Juliana Bell - 16th Feb 1834 - parents John Bell and Susan
James Bell - 1st Jun 1835 - parents John Bell and Susanna
Dolway Bell - 21st Apr 1836 - parents John Bell and Susannah
Edwin John Bell - 16th May 1839 - parents John Bell and ___
“Ezekiel” must be “Elizth” in the Chancery Bill. Do we have a 3rd source to confirm which name is correct?
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Hi Corinthian,
I think the bill being amended on 31st Dec 1845 was just the plaintiff’s response to the defendants’ answer a few weeks earlier.
I’m not sure this can be taken as evidence that George Bell was an older sibling. He might have been John’s brother or some other relation.
It is possible that the reference in the census to John Bell dying in “Spring 1846” is an error, and it should have been “Spring 1845”. That would fit with the Chancery Bill being lodged in August 1845.
How do you know William Bell died in 1845?
I think it is possible that the William Bell in the 1845 bill is not the same William Bell who was baptised in 1826. It would seem strange for him to be described as an infant when his younger siblings Rebecca, Arthur and Conway were not.
Is the Conway Bell who died in 1905 your ancestor?
Gilby
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In the Glenavy Church burial records:
1845 March 16, John Bell of Ballinderry, aged 47
1845 March 30, John Bell of Ballyvorally, aged 93
1845 April 4, John Bell of Agnadaragh, aged 92
(it was a bad time to be named John Bell)
PRONI Pre-1858 Wills and Admons:
1845 John Bell, Ballymacrevan, Ballinderry - index only, will has not survived.
1846 John Bell, Glenavy - index only, will has not survived.
The Glenavy Church records have no John Bells being buried in 1846, but there is a conspicuous absence of any burials at all of anyone for the entire month of November.
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Hi Gilby,
That makes sense re John Bell dying in March 1845. Age would be more or less correct as well. What a shame that the Will has not survived, (although that would make it too easy!).
As previously mentioned I do have a DNA match with someone whose ancestor is a George Bell from Ballinderry, but of course, as you have pointed out, that doesn't mean that he was necessarily an elder brother of my Bells and was possibly some other relation.
This source has recorded John and Susannah as his parents and his DOB as 13/05/1821. This is confusing as, according to the Ancestry website, that George Bell's parents were John Bell and Charlotte Kerr. Perhaps Susannah was John's second wife, (although I can find no record of this)?? George Bell married Jane Morgan, (date unknown), had several children, and died 13/03/1888, aged 67, (probably born 1820/1821).
Regarding the death of William Bell in 1845 - that was an error of mine. I thought the record of the bill stated that William was deceased - but it was actually the date of the bill and what I thought was written 'Deceased' was 'December' so please ignore.
I am very confused about William being named as an infant in 1845 so maybe the court were not referring to the William Bell born in 1826?? I have been unable to trace any further information regarding William, with any certainty, so cannot be sure when he died.
Yes, the Conway Bell who died in 1905 is my 3 x great grand-uncle and a son of John and Susannah Bell, (born or baptised 05/11/1830).
Finally, (so far), Ezekiel P (or F) Bell died 15/01/1903, aged 68, at the Homeopathic Hospital, Allegheny, Pittsburgh City, Pennsylvania, USA. Ezekiel is recorded as single and his parents as John and Susannah Bell.
Kind regards,
Coreen
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Hi Guys! I hope you are all well!
Sorry I've been a bit quiet - I've had my own addition come along to the family tree and he's been keeping me well and truly busy.
On the Clements bit of this thread I may now have an idea how this joins up to the older Carrickfergus branch.
I have an indenture from PRONI showing Andrew Clements of Carrickfergus (Husband of Helen(a) Dalway), Hercules Clements (his son) and John Clements of Glenow (I cant trace this location if anyone has any local knowledge?) I'm kicking myself as the copy of this indenture from the Adair papers has the lefthand edge slightly cut off and I cant see what county Glenow is in.
Hercules Clements d1758 I have a will for - It states he was formerly of Clements Mount (The Clements holding at Glenavy) but now of Carrickfergus. There are three daughters in his will and no Sons, so I don't think though he lived at Glenavy that he was the originator of the line.
I think from my limited understanding of indentures (not my strong point) the land then passed or was shared with a John Clements.
At the top of my tree tracing the Glenavy Clements is John Clements who dies 1712. This would put him in line age wise (Its a tough one as I have limited dates to go on) with the other children of Andrew Clements. (LIEUT Hercules Clement d1758, LIEUT Dalway Clements d.1721)
Its not rock solid, but looking like a good fit. It would also explain very neatly the Dolway name being used by the Glenavy Clements and Later the Glenavy Bells.
The earlier Christopher Clements d1668 in the area remains a complete mystery to me.
Hope this is of some help.
Donna