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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: DebraBloom on Thursday 07 May 15 06:52 BST (UK)
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When discussing my surname with my mother, my mother said it meant flower (Bloom). I said 'that's a Hebrew surname.. isn't it?'' she said yes and said people in Germany have that surname but, it's spelled with a 'u'. Later on in the day, I messaged my mother and asked her what 'ashkenazic' meant. She said she didn't know and asked me why I asked her. I told her 'well, according to some research, this family may have ashkenazic roots, or origins'. She replied with 'what, you mean this family?' and I said yes. My mother texted back 'is it Jewish'.
I could've been dreaming but I swear my mother's dad (surname Bloom comes from him) was discussing his father, or grandfather long ago, and when he mimicked his accent it sounded Jewish. I may have recalled him saying something like 'he was a Jew' or something to that liking. I always get people say I and my mother look of totally Jewish descent and they say the same about my cousin and even more distant relatives. My family also lives in the same town that this Jewish family by the same surname settled. The 'Bloom' family with the meaning 'flower', according to houseofnames, is the Jewish one. It can be English or Irish too, apparently, and those families live in the UK too, but their surnames have a different meaning.
My mother and grandparents are gone now and I found it impossible to trace my grandfather's ancestry, no matter what site I go on, the family trees are simply not there.
Some family pics
Moderator Comment: External links to external photo website removed.
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Welcome to rootschat Debra.
I wouldn't rely solely on the surname or how you think your family looks to make a judgement on whether or not they were Jewish.
There are a couple of approaches you could try:
- Take a DNA test
- Just trace your family history in the usual way going back generation by generation and you may discover some more concrete facts to back up your theory.
You do not just look for other people's family trees who may mention names of your ancestors(unsure if this is what you have tried and said you had no luck with, but this is how it reads to me) as they may not be correct. You need to do your own research.
It is also too hit and miss to google a surname, find pictures of random people and assume they may be related to you because they have the same surname. :-\
(Not that it means anything, but I think one of your cousins looks Irish (the one with the curly hair))
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It can be very difficult to find information on immigrants to this country unless you have a handle to work from. I had awful problems with my tree until I discovered, just by chance, that the family had changed their name from "Thiel" to "Shiel" before the '14 War and that the father had come over from Germany. I can't get past his marriage in the UK.
If I were you I would start working back from your mother and get grandparents getting their marriage certificate and working back with their parents.
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I hesitate to enter this but I feel it is important to understand what is meant by '' am I Jewish''
There is no Jewish race. It is a religious appellation. Just as someone may be identified as a WASP ( White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) or a Baptist or a Buddhist or a Muslim. A Muslim is a follower of Islam and a Jewish person is a follower of Judaism. The only clause to that is that you can identify as Jewish if your mother is Jewish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F
This link will expand further and even , in some places , contradict me, but I am comfortable in saying the above
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Hi Debra,
You wrote, 'I always get people say I and my mother look of totally Jewish descent and they say the same about my cousin and even more distant relatives.'
I am of Jewish descent, but have freckles, reddish-brown hair and blue eyes as did my grandfather and his cousins. Appearances can be deceptive.
You really need to trace your roots in the conventional manner, and see what you find.
If you tell us what you know (names, dates, places), I'm sure there are many people ready to give a helping hand.
Justin
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I'd always understood that Jewishness was traced through the maternal line, primarily. If your mother was Jewish, you will be.
That's very sensible actually, when you think about it, you can be more certain that your mother was your mother than that your father was your father!
Visual appearance is no guide, nor actually is surname often. Just trace your line, and see what pops up.
Many families have tales in them of some Jewish ancestor who "married out". Often it is based merely on the sound of a name / surname.
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The diaspora created two main regional streams of Jews - the Sephardic Jews who are the Jews of Spain, Portugal, North Africa and the Middle East and their descendants and the Ashkenazi who are the Jews of France, Germany, and Eastern Europe and their descendants.
Those who remained in Palestine over the millenia and their descendants are known as the Mizrachi.
Amongst the Ashkenazi it is not at all uncommon to encounter red-haired people with relatively fair skins.
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Hackstaple
Presumably the Sephardic Jews had darker skin, black hair and dark brown eyes. When my mother was getting married, someone asked her mother (my maternal gran) if my mother was marrying into a Jewish family. Certainly my uncles looked like the portrait of Jewish people on film and TV and my g.grandfather's mother was apparently from Spain or Portugal. As I can't find out anything about g.grandfather previous to him setting up home with g.gran, I have no idea what his family background was.
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At some point Debra you might find your Bloom family entering into England (it depends when and why they came).
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At some point Debra you might find your Bloom family entering into England (it depends when and why they came).
This is what I was thinking as well. So best to trace the family the usual way in the hope that there may be documentation which will help you. Your easiest route initially I think might be to try to trace the family back to 1911, and earlier, through the censuses - this will give places of birth.
Also worth checking baptisms, marriages and burials.
If you would like help please post names and any dates and places you know, as long as the person is deceased, and we will try to find them for you.
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Some have stated that there are three aspects of Jewishness:
1. Ethnicity (Hebrew)
2. Religion (Judaism) (includes culture)
3. Nationhood (the people of Israel)
While it is possible to guess that some individuals are Jewish, based on their physical appearance, clothing or manner of speaking, I have met many, many Jewish people who don't "look Jewish," so it is impossible to generalize, just as it is impossible to generalize for people from many other backgrounds.
I have a mixed heritage: English, Irish, Scottish, French and Jewish. People can usually guess the Scottish and Irish part based on my hair colour and complexion. People can't guess my husband's ancestry, even though he is also part Irish and Scottish.
I worked for several years for a Jewish organization. The Jewish people whom I met usually knew right away I didn't fit into #1 but, given where I worked, assumed I had either married a Jewish man and/or had converted to #2. However, the non-Jewish people whom I met assumed that I was #1 and #2.
I met the Prime Minister of Canada at a work-related event during Channukah. Since he knew my employer, when it was my turn for the handshake and photo opp, the PM wished me a Happy Channukah. The funny part is that I automatically responded, "Thanks, you, too!" Two Christians wishing each other Happy Channukah -- too cute! And so typically Canadian in its politeness. :D
Anyway, my Jewish ancestor had a typically English name, so that was no clue whatsoever to his religion and heritage. I only discovered it when I couldn't find records for him and his wife and children in the local parish registers. Well, it took more than that, because at first I thought maybe he was Catholic. It actually took a few years and the assistance of others to find the records that proved it. I'm still trying to find out who his parents were (I have to have the $$$ to hire a researcher who can read Hebrew).
Oh, and I'll add that my Scottish ancestors had big noses, and I've had Jewish friends with noses smaller than mine.
Good luck and have fun with your searching!
Josephine
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I can't afford a DNA test right now (I'm in debt from college) :-\
And, I tried looking up my grandfather's family history but I cannot trace beyond him. No matter where I go it's a dead end. I can't ask him because he's gone.
So really this is a guessing game, I'm just wondering how likely it is based on what my mother said and the pictures.
My other relatives look 100% English but some of those traits in the pictures pop up here and there on my mother's side of the family. Those traits are most noticeable in the pictures of the relatives I posted photos of.
My mother and one of my uncles are dark skinned all year round, and had what they called a 'beak' nose. Sort of like a Syrid nose, that was 'large'. I'm also darker skinned even in the winter. My mother was actually brown, though my grandfather looked light skinned. When I look at myself I almost see some kind of Semitic features there.
The problem with tracing is that there is also families of 100% English and Irish origin with the surname, unrelated to each other, and they live in England also. Though according to a person who researched the surname, he said the Bloom families near Manchester were crypto-Jewish, and my family lives very close to there and there were people with Hebrew names like Esau and Hezekiah with my surname living in the same town my family lives. I also met a man with my surname in my town and he had the black hair, short head, and brown skin also.
My mother implied she was well implied that Jewish was an ethnicity, rather than a religion.
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Good Morning Debra,
And, I tried looking up my grandfather's family history but I cannot trace beyond him. No matter where I go it's a dead end.
Why don't you let the people on here have a go at looking for him (as has been suggested up there^^^) - they are brilliant at finding seemingly lost people - I thought I would never find one of my ancestors but they found him and now I have been able to fill out that branch of my tree. Just give his name and what you do know - they really are very good!
Good luck with your research. 8)
Liz
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As we've already mentioned, you cannot assume ethnicity of any sort by looks. I worked with a woman with pale, freckled skin and red hair with an 'Irish' name- she was Jewish without any Irish blood. A cousin, with no Eskimo roots, has high cheekbones and straight black hair and has often been asked if her family were Eskimos or where she comes from in Alaska.
You also cannot assume anything by names, either first or last. I live in Ireland and am often asked my mother's maiden name as a security question (which is a fairly common 'Irish' name in some parts of Ireland)- my mother's family are German and the surname her branch of the family uses (and has used for about 150 years) has evolved from a German name. Her father's family used mostly all Biblical names (Elias, Rebekah, Susannah, Jacob, etc.) but they were not Jewish- the names were taken from the Bible.
The best thing to do is trace your own family and see if you can discover their roots without getting bogged down by assumptions.
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Debra,
If you are not comfortable with posting information about your grandfather online, that's understandable. If you are still paying off student debt, that suggests to me that your grandfather was likely born long after the 1911 census was taken. If, for example, he was born in 1945, his parents might have been born circa 1920, still before the census. That means you have to find other sources to take you back to his grandparents (assuming they were in England in time for the 1911 census).
The following are sources that should provide information about your grandfather's parents to help you go backwards in your tree. Some cost money, some might be done for you at no cost, all involve some time and effort on your part. Once you know who his parents were, you can try to use the same sources to learn more about them. (I'm not asking you to post the answers online.)
- Do you have your grandfather's birth record?
- If he might have been baptized, do you have that record, or have you contacted the church[es] where it might have taken place to ask for a copy?
- Do you have his death record?
- Do you have his obituary?
- Do you know what it says on his tombstone?
- Do you have the record from the funeral home that handled his funeral?
- Is your grandmother still living and can she provide you with any clues?
- Do you know your grandfather's mother's name?
- Do you have his parents' marriage record?
- Is your mother an only child? Was she given any family papers after your grandfather died or did they go to a sibling of your mother's? If the latter, have you spoken to your aunt/uncle about the contents of those papers or about any stories they might have heard about family origins?
- Do you know what city/town your grandfather grew up in?
- Have you tried to trace his father in city directories?
- Do you know where his parents are or might be buried? Have you visited the cemetery to find their tombstones or written to the cemetery to inquire as to what information they have on your father's family members?
- Have you contacted the local library where your grandfather grew up, in case there is any information on file there already pertaining to your family history (including notices for births, marriages and deaths that might have been indexed by a local genealogical society)?
Good luck!
Josephine
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I just want to add that city directories can provide all types of useful clues. In addition to the man's name, occupation and address, depending on the era, you might also find the names of his wife and any teenage/adult children living in the same home. If, one year, the wife is suddenly on her own or listed as the widow of, you know to look for the man's death in that one-year time frame (although I'd widen the window by a few months). The same applies if the wife is suddenly not listed. If one of the children is no longer listed with the family, he or she might have gotten married in the previous year and moved out on his or her own.
Josephine
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Josephine's comments and suggestions sound very good, Debra. Don't worry about finding if ancestors were Jewish or gentile, let's get them found somehow, then sort that out!
Having said that, if you're pretty sure about the Manchester connection, why not contact the Jewish Museum there? Even if they can't help you themselves, they may be able to suggest which of the synagogues in the area may best be able to help.
There are many "Blooms" who are Jewish - and those who are not. As many others have said, physical appearance is a poor guide. Research using the ancestors you know of, and swee what happens.
But do gather together what you do know, regardless of assumptions, and see how far we can all use that to help you trace the families back in time. Don't assume by name - I've got half the old testament names in my family history, but most of them were Anglican, Quakers or Methodists!
Oh, and Manchester City libraries have many directories etc., and newspaper records that, if you do start moving back in time in that area, I'm sure Rootschatters will help out with finding and using for you. Good luck.
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"I can't afford a DNA test right now (I'm in debt from college) :-\
And, I tried looking up my grandfather's family history but I cannot trace beyond him. No matter where I go it's a dead end. I can't ask him because he's gone".
Debra - you might be disappointed with the DNA tests as they will give you a great generalisation as to your ancestry which would fit hundreds of people.
Accept the good advice that others have offered. Don't work with assumptions about your family history. We all started somewhere with tracing our ancestry. On this forum there are hosts of willing helpers who have available to them all sorts of resources. Just post on here what information you have for certain - not guesswork. Ask for help - you may be amazed. Every person born in the England or Wales since 1837 is traceable and lots from earlier dates.We have many Jewish members.
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I can't afford a DNA test right now (I'm in debt from college) :-\
And, I tried looking up my grandfather's family history but I cannot trace beyond him. No matter where I go it's a dead end. I can't ask him because he's gone.
So really this is a guessing game, I'm just wondering how likely it is based on what my mother said and the pictures.
My other relatives look 100% English but some of those traits in the pictures pop up here and there on my mother's side of the family. Those traits are most noticeable in the pictures of the relatives I posted photos of.
My mother and one of my uncles are dark skinned all year round, and had what they called a 'beak' nose. Sort of like a Syrid nose, that was 'large'. I'm also darker skinned even in the winter. My mother was actually brown, though my grandfather looked light skinned. When I look at myself I almost see some kind of Semitic features there.
The problem with tracing is that there is also families of 100% English and Irish origin with the surname, unrelated to each other, and they live in England also. Though according to a person who researched the surname, he said the Bloom families near Manchester were crypto-Jewish, and my family lives very close to there and there were people with Hebrew names like Esau and Hezekiah with my surname living in the same town my family lives. I also met a man with my surname in my town and he had the black hair, short head, and brown skin also.
My mother implied she was well implied that Jewish was an ethnicity, rather than a religion.
Hi Debra -
If you are suggesting that the Bloom family may have come from Manchester please do read the information here.
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/448/archives_and_local_history/506/multicultural_manchester/19
You may find your research is coming to a dead end because the name Bloom was anglicised or changed. Many of the Jewish community just changed their names (alot around WW1) so there will be no paperwork.
You do need to stop guessing and build up a profile of facts. Some good 'how to ' suggestions have been made.
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Deborah... I say start saving for a genealogy test.
I have been told my whole life how I tan so well because my father had native american blood on both sides of the family. His sister (my Aunt) said yes there was on both sides and even which family members, on a site people who I share that same common ancestor also had heard the same thing....Between them immigrating to Boston in 1635 and having another side French Canadian I thought it was possible.
My brother did the DNA test.... 0% Native American!
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I agree that the quickest and cheapest way to resolving your query is to assemble together b.m.d. documentation showing all the names and dates. The documentation is important in that witnesses could be relations.
Having a peculiar accent might not indicate he was a Jew or migrated from Germany, as I see from the National Archives that people with that surname (Bloom) also originated in Russia for example.
Searching for "Bloom" on the National Archive website brings up over 4,500 results. To search for migrants who had enough money to pay for naturalisation, these records are in the "Home Office Section". To search solely for those records type in "Bloom AND HO"
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/immigrants.htm
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There are a great many people with the surname Bloom in England who are not from immigrant stock at all but who had forefathers who were iron smelters.
A variant on that is Blome and a Richard Blome was a famous 17th century English map maker.
The succession of the Hanoverian monarchs to the throne also brought many Hanoverians to England, some soldiers, and Blum/Blume was a fairly common name from that state. Certainly the Hanoverian regiments in India in 1789 both had private solders with those surnames.
Blum, Bloom, Bloem is not an ancient Jewish surname but a convenient adoption of a name similar to or shorter than Yiddish surnames.
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There are a great many people with the surname Bloom in England who are not from immigrant stock at all but who had forefathers who were iron smelters.
A variant on that is Blome and a Richard Blome was a famous 17th century English map maker.
The succession of the Hanoverian monarchs to the throne also brought many Hanoverians to England, some soldiers, and Blum/Blume was a fairly common name from that state. Certainly the Hanoverian regiments in India in 1789 both had private solders with those surnames.
Blum, Bloom, Bloem is not an ancient Jewish surname but a convenient adoption of a name similar to or shorter than Yiddish surnames.
To promote Hackstaples point is the following link
http://oldgermantranslations.com/translations/page4/page4.html
If your family is Christian by religion, but you suspect that your ancestors are Jewish, and/or that your surname sounds Jewish and you would like to research the matter, you should begin by finding your ancestor’s district or town of origin in Germany. Based on this information we can search for your ancestor’s birth record, his or her parents records, and other family records, and step by step and carefully trace your family tree, and in the process answer your questions.
And this
In other words: a “Jewish sounding German surname” does not necessarily mean that ones ancestors were Jewish if one’s parents and grandparents were Christians! The same applies to German surnames mentioned in Jewish surname databases. When entering those same names into a regular database, one will very likely come across the same names among Christian families.
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Some excellent advice as usual by the rootschatters.
I would just like to reiterate that interesting though the origin of surnames is, unless you have traced your Blooms back to England then just searching for the surname in Manchester will be a bit of a stab in the dark. You need to make sure you have all the usual details of your ancestor such as name, date and place of birth etc etc, to ensure that the Bloom line you trace is definitely your Bloom line.
Family stories often get mixed up as they are passed down the generations and sometimes they are found to be completely untrue. Tell us what you know (for definite) about your family and I'm sure people will be keen to try to help you.
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I'll just summarize:
My mother said my surname means flower. There's multiple families with the name Bloom but some are of Irish or English origin with different meanings.
In a conversation about my surname I said 'sounds like it'd be hebrew or something, isn't it?' my mother said 'yes, actually there's people living in Germany with the surname Bloom, it's pronounced the same but it is spelled with a u instead of two o's.'
I looked up my last name on houseofnames and one of the origins was ashkenazic from Germany. I messaged my mother asking her if she knew what ashkenazic meant since my internet was slow. She said she didn't know. I said the family may have ashkenazic roots or origins and she quickly replied; 'is it Jewish'. Now I can't trace my grandfather's roots, and I don't want to go through the trouble of DNA testing for something trivial as ethnicity but this got me curious so I'm wondering how likely it is. I always got confused when people asked if I was a Jew. I take after my mom and once a rabbi came up to me to ask if I was. He then spoke about my eyes and nose. They say that about my cousins and one of my uncles also. It isn't a local thing either since some people with the surname who I know came from the Jewish variant share that kind of look.
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The way to [possibly] find out is to use standard methods to trace your family back, generation by generation. Speculating about names and noses won't get you anywhere.
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I agree with Erato. Because your mother told you a story and a couple of websites give you vague information does not mean it is true or it applies to you.
You need to research your specific Blooms through the usual methods as has already been advised by several people. You have received a number of answers to your original question, and plenty of advice, but you continue to talk about possible origin of your surname and a 'Jewish look' - things which you have been advised to ignore. You are at the same stage as when you first asked this question.
If you don't know how to go about researching your family, help has been offered. It is up to you if you wish to take up the offer.
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I agree with Ruskie, just because someone you trust tells you something that they have been told, does not mean that the fundamentals in the story are accurate. In your case, it just means that your mum is telling you what she knows. If you want to validate that information, then you need to follow the suggestions offered earlier in this thread, and there's plenty of fantastic Rootschatters who have provided some really good advice.
I have had a look at the links you popped in earlier, the ones with the family photos. To me, they simply look like family photos rather than family photos to prove or disprove any Jewish ancestry.
Cheers, JM
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You have received very good advice on this and another forum, so when your funds permit and you have been able to do some basic research I'm sure many of us would be happy to help you further.
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A few names and dates might help us help you. I'm not familiar with your questions on another forum, so don't know what funds Jill is referring to, but we might be able to help you anyway.
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Reply number 11
"I can't afford a DNA test right now (I'm in debt from college) :-\
And, I tried looking up my grandfather's family history but I cannot trace beyond him. No matter where I go it's a dead end. I can't ask him because he's gone. "
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I'll just summarize:
............. I always got confused when people asked if I was a Jew. I take after my mom and once a rabbi came up to me to ask if I was. He then spoke about my eyes and nose. They say that about my cousins and one of my uncles also. It isn't a local thing either since some people with the surname who I know came from the Jewish variant share that kind of look.
I noticed you use the affectionate word "mom", which isn't normally used by people living in the area around Manchester, England. Due to that area once being an industrial hub of England it attracted peoples from all over. I am not conversant with Manchester in the USA and the records available to amateur family historians - presumably you've tried freely available passenger list information.
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http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/111453-Does-it-sound-or-look-likely-that-my-family-has-Jewish-ancestry
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http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/111453-Does-it-sound-or-look-likely-that-my-family-has-Jewish-ancestry
Thanks larkspur - not brilliant advice on that forum. ::)
Rena - good points you made. I didn't think to ask Debra whereabouts in the world she lived.
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Okay so I managed to find a way to look at family tree's a little bit (sort of.)
I seem to recall my grandfather saying his dad had the same name as him, so I looked for people of that name for the town he lived in. He was born in 1932 and I found a [his name] Bloom born in 1891. I traced this to 1850 and I found a Giles Blum - spelled with the u, instead of the double o's.
This would be funny though because that would mean the story of a certain famous person carrying the same surname being my great great uncle would be false because I've looked at his family tree and the names don't match up.
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Debra,
To prove the connection, you'd need your grandfather's birth, marriage and/or death records, which should give you his father's and mother's names and his father's occupation.
Then you'd need to find his parents' marriage record, followed by their birth records, so you'd have their parents' names and their fathers' occupations.
And then their parents' records. And so on, going backwards as far as you can, until you do or do not find any indications of Jewishness, aided by newspaper obituaries and cemetery records, etc.
What you're doing now is guesswork and speculation and that's okay if that's the extent of what you want to do at this stage. There are a lot more records available for research other than online trees, which can often contain errors.
Good luck!
Josephine
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http://www.familytreeforum.com/showthread.php/111453-Does-it-sound-or-look-likely-that-my-family-has-Jewish-ancestry
http://www.quora.com/What-could-my-ancestry-be-My-surname-is-Bloom-My-mother-said-that-it-meant-flower-and-that-people-in-Germany-have-the-same-last-name-but-its-spelled-as-Blum
http://www.city-data.com/forum/genealogy/2362683-does-sound-look-like-i-have.html
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Okay so I managed to find a way to look at family tree's a little bit (sort of.)
I seem to recall my grandfather saying his dad had the same name as him, so I looked for people of that name for the town he lived in. He was born in 1932 and I found a [his name] Bloom born in 1891. I traced this to 1850 and I found a Giles Blum - spelled with the u, instead of the double o's.
This would be funny though because that would mean the story of a certain famous person carrying the same surname being my great great uncle would be false because I've looked at his family tree and the names don't match up.
Is it correct to say your grandfathers name is Giles Bloom/Blum? and he was born 1932? And that it is believed his fathers name is also Giles?
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Debra, you really need to follow the advice of Josephine (and others here).
Just because you think you recall one ancestor having the same name as another, and you found something on a family tree (presumably online?), it does NOT mean that this is your family! Everyone's family history is NOT laid out on an online website!
You need to either buy some certificates or ask a relative if they know (for certain NOT speculation) what the names of your grandparents were. Then come back to us with names, dates and locations and we will attempt to help you!
You are just going around in circles at the moment. Asking the same question on various forums will not help you find the truth! And some of the advice/opinions you have been given on those forums leaves a bit to be desired.
This is getting extremely frustrating as you don't seem to want to heed any advice or suggestions you have been given.
Is there a reason why you won't listen to us? :( This thread is up to 5 pages now and you have not found out one fact about your Blooms! Re read this thread thoroughly as I am not sure if you have read or understood any of the advice you have been given.
I get the impression that you won't be satisfied until someone says "yes you look Jewish" and "you have a Jewish surname" so "you must be Jewish." ::)
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=721640.msg5655064#msg5655064
seems she may be in the UK
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=721640.msg5655064#msg5655064
seems she may be in the UK
Thank you larkspur. ::)
(It would have been nice if Debra had bothered to let us know about her other thread as she's been offered help several times on this one. ::))
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Ernest Bloomer is not quite the same as Giles Bloom..... :o
Manchester is not quite the Black Country :-\
maybe she thought it needed different threads :P
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You might be right larkspur. :)
I've just popped into the other thread to see how it's all going and notice that Debra has managed to get back to the 1500s. So that's good.
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But is she Jewish or not?!?!
;)
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You might be right larkspur. :)
I've just popped into the other thread to see how it's all going and notice that Debra has managed to get back to the 1500s. So that's good.
Depends how she got to this point though, by researching, checking, buying certificates and proving the research - or by merely copying an online tree?
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You might be right larkspur. :)
I've just popped into the other thread to see how it's all going and notice that Debra has managed to get back to the 1500s. So that's good.
Depends how she got to this point though, by researching, checking, buying certificates and proving the research - or by merely copying an online tree?
Lisa, I was being sarcastic. ;)
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Bloomin' 'eck.
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Moderator Comment: This topic has now been locked.