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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: cazza59 on Wednesday 06 May 15 12:43 BST (UK)
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Wasn't sure whether to start a new thread or keep WAI No 10 going, but at least this way, people who aren't returning to WAI 10, might be interested in the Who Am I side of things.
Anyway, the following are close ups from the Balhomie photos as per WAI No 10.
Caz
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Second one.
Do we have a match, is this Basil Oliver Moon?
Born 1885. Age estimate based on 1907 would make him 22 in the photo.
The second photo I've attached was located by Jool.
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Third. To me this could be Mr Ernest Moon.
Born 1855 in Worcester. Again estimating DOB based on 1907, he would be 52 in the photo.
By age 36 he was a Barrister.
Caz
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Fourth
Could it be???? :o :o :o :o
Look at the chin and ears…..
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Fifth
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Sixth
I think this is a second shot of the chap in No 3, possibly Mr Ernest Moon.
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Seventh
The Moon's daughter Edith perhaps.
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Eighth
Another son? Maybe Arthur Moon?
Arthur was born in 1883. Estimate based on 1907, 24 years old in photo.
Caz
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Last but not least, Ninth
Possibly Mrs Emma Moon
If it is, she was born in New South Wales, Australia in 1860.
Estimating the photo to be taken around 1907, this would make her approx 47 in this photo.
Caz
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This is the research on the Moon family that Pat has done, which I copied from WAI No 10, for ease of reference.
I have been doing a bit more digging:
Ernest & Emma Moon had 3 children, Edith May [unmarried], Arthur & Basil Oliver[died 1915 unmarried]. Arthur was the only one to have children.
Arthur & Marjorie had 3 children John Richard [died 1978], Penelope Kathleen [could be still alive] and Christine Marjorie [died 2008] This means John, Penelope and Christine are the grandchildren.
It really depends when the photo was posted, it is unlikely to be John because of his date of death, so if it was posted before 2008, it could be Penelope or Christine, if after that date it leaves Penelope.
A little bit more information, Penelope married Count Thomas Andreas Constantine Lubienski.
There is another Count Lubienski, Major Count Ludwik Maria Lubienski and his daughter is Rula Lenska the actress. She was born Countess Roza Maria Leopolnya Lubienski. I can't find the connection between the families but if there is one it means that Rula Lenska could be distantly connected to Sir Ernest Moon. The Lubienski line can be traced back to Henry V11.
Pat
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Excellent likeness for Edward Clifton-Brown number 4 :)
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Well, the first thing I noticed was how handsome all the men are. ;)
(the women ... um, not so much ;D)
That is not helpful in any way, but I just felt compelled to mention it.
I agree that 3 and 6 are one and the same.
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Fourth
Could it be???? :o :o :o :o
Look at the chin and ears…..
That's got legs Caz :D
Carol
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Excellent likeness for Edward Clifton-Brown number 4 :)
I think so too. ;D ;D
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Well, the first thing I noticed was how handsome all the men are. ;)
(the women ... um, not so much ;D)
That is not helpful in any way, but I just felt compelled to mention it.
I agree that 3 and 6 are one and the same.
They were all rather dashing, have to agree! ;D
Good, that's two votes on 3 and 6.
Caz
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Fourth
Could it be???? :o :o :o :o
Look at the chin and ears…..
That's got legs Caz :D
Carol
Well that's three votes for it being Edward!
So sad about Basil Moon. :(
What do you think about the comparison shot that Jool found?
Caz
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Some more background information on Sir Ernest Moon, but no photo as yet.
Caz
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This is on the village hall at Wolfhill.
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Yes, very sad about poor Basil. :(
Caz, presumably you referring to the photo of Basil being the same as the chap in photo 2?
I think there are differences in the shape of the chin and jawline, but the bottom lip and nose look the same. Difficult to tell whether eyes are the same. I would say there are definite similarities. The moustache has obviously been waxed for the formal photograph.
The chaps all look very dapper.
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No photo of Basil yet but here's one of Sir Richard.
Scrap that...Wrong Moons ::)
Carol
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Yes, very sad about poor Basil. :(
Caz, presumably you referring to the photo of Basil being the same as the chap in photo 2?
I think there are differences in the shape of the chin and jawline, but the bottom lip and nose look the same. Difficult to tell whether eyes are the same. I would say there are definite similarities. The moustache has obviously been waxed for the formal photograph.
The chaps all look very dapper.
That's right, second photo. I'm presuming the identified photo would have been taken about 1914, some seven years later than my photo. I think there's a good likeness, but I'm not willing to state categorically it's a match.
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Could this be Ernest Moon's Wife Emma from Oz.
http://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/richmond-portrait-of-mrs-ernest-moon-t07130
Didn't realise Pat had already posted this on another thread ::)
I'll go away now :-[ ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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I think that well may be a match…. ;D ;D ;D
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I thought so but didn't want to say until I saw the response ;D
Carol
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No photo of Basil yet but here's one of Sir Richard.
Scrap that...Wrong Moons ::)
Carol
Maybe not….possible that Sir Richard was the Grandfather…
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Just before I head off for some sleep, I'm convinced that these three are a match.
We know for a fact that images 2 and 3 are Basil, and as far as I'm concerned images 1 and 2 are also a match, even to the point I think he's wearing the same hat!
Caz
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Oh yes....I would agree with that too.
Carol
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The first two definitely....Not sure number 3 is him..
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The first two definitely....Not sure number 3 is him..
Hi all, this is where I found the third photo in the sequence of Basil Oliver Moon (the one with waxed moustache).
I think they are all Basil ;)
http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-post-51675.html
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I would agree with Lady Emma Moon being a match, all of her features seem to match perfectly.
As for your eighth photo - you can call him whatever you like but I want him ;D ;D ;D ::)
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I saw him first Jool :P ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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Carol, we just have to find out who this handsome man is (then we can fight over him :P) ;D ;D
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Come in number 8...your time is up....and when he shows up..... then we can share him Jools ;)
Carol
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Just before I head off for some sleep, I'm convinced that these three are a match.
We know for a fact that images 2 and 3 are Basil, and as far as I'm concerned images 1 and 2 are also a match, even to the point I think he's wearing the same hat!
Caz
The difference in chin and jawline concerns me ... :-\
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Yeah I agree No 8 is a bit of a looker. :P
Stop fighting over him now ladies! Sadly, the man is now deceased. :'(
(this reminds me a bit of Phillipa Langley with her HUGE crush on a man who has been dead for over 500 years.)
I bought a large frame with an old photo some years ago, to put a family photo in. I didn't have the heart to throw out the photo I removed as one of the men it is was so gorgeous - so he still lies in my drawer.... ;)
I think we might need a bit of male input into these quests to keep us focused. ;D
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Caz, I think you are bob on with photograph no.3 being Ernest Moon.
This photograph was in The Times in 1928 and he looks like the same gentleman. ;D
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The first two definitely....Not sure number 3 is him..
Hi all, this is where I found the third photo in the sequence of Basil Oliver Moon (the one with waxed moustache).
I think they are all Basil ;)
http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-post-51675.html
Well unless their is some doubt over the accuracy of the posting on Jool's link, then they all have to be Basil IMO. In the third photo, he would be at least seven years older than pics 1 and 2, taken in 1907. ;)
Caz
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I would agree with Lady Emma Moon being a match, all of her features seem to match perfectly.
As for your eighth photo - you can call him whatever you like but I want him ;D ;D ;D ::)
Totally agree! ;D ;D ;D Quite the movie star looks! :D
I think number 8 is Arthur Moon, and I'm quite sure he has living descendants scattered about. He married Marjorie Skinner and had three children, John, Penelope and Christine.
Obviously we know Basil was sadly killed in action and the daughter Edith, never married.
Caz
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I saw him first Jool :P ;D ;D ;D
Carol
Well, in actual fact, I saw him first, so form an orderly queue behind me please! ;D ;D ;D :P :P :P ::) ::) ::)
Caz
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Yeah I agree No 8 is a bit of a looker. :P
Stop fighting over him now ladies! Sadly, the man is now deceased. :'(
(this reminds me a bit of Phillipa Langley with her HUGE crush on a man who has been dead for over 500 years.)
I bought a large frame with an old photo some years ago, to put a family photo in. I didn't have the heart to throw out the photo I removed as one of the men it is was so gorgeous - so he still lies in my drawer.... ;)
I think we might need a bit of male input into these quests to keep us focused. ;D
Agree and acknowledge all of the above! ;D
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Aw yes! That's definitely him IMO! Well done Trish 8), I started looking last night in newspapers and all I could find was details of fish they had caught (Basil was quite the fisherman); Sir Ernest's obit; a description of Arthur's wedding and mention of them at various Hunt Ball's they had attended, not one with a photo!
Caz
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What about the fourth one, any one else agree that is Edward Clifton Brown?
Caz
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I agree that no. four is Edward Clifton Brown ;)
Trish
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Well done Trish, I think we have a match for Ernest Moon, especially when you see them side by side.
Caz, you also have my vote on Edward Clifton Brown.
Please don't tell me about Arthur's wedding, I can't bear to think of him marrying another woman :'( ;D
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Thanks Trish and Jool. We may not have found a blood link between them, but obviously there was a social link to the Moon and Brown families. Yet again, I'm convinced that the person holding the camera was Dorothy Clifton Brown.
So that just leaves photo No. 1 and No. 5, (assuming that is Arthur and Edith Moon in Nos. 7 and 8. It would be great to be able to confirm this with another photo, but on the surface of things, it does seem likely it is them.)
How amazing is it that several mansions and now two families have been identified. Bl**dy marvellous! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Caz
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Not sure, but could no. 5 possibly be another photo of the same man as in No. 8 (who we guess may be Arthur Moon). He appears to be wearing the same hat and has a liking for a checked jacket in both.
Caz, I think you have a side shot of the man in No. 5 in the original WAI
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They look different to me, but you are right, there is a side view of No. 5 in one of the other photos. I thought he might have been Edith's boyfriend as they appear to stand quite close together or possibly another relative, but either way, I think their is a familiarity between them.
I wonder if he is a match for one of the young men in the Clifton Brown photos. I need to do some close ups of that lot next.
Caz
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I wrote a reply some time ago, but either it has disappeared in cyber space or I pressed the wrong key!
Congratulations to Trish for finding a photo of Ernest Moon, I have searched all over the place for a decent photo of him. As you say there is obviously a connection between the Moons and the Clifton Browns, I wonder if it could be political?
I have also been searching for a good photo of Arthur Moon to do a comparison. I went back into Google images tonight and put in 'Arthur Moon, Balhomie' and guess what photo showed up - Caz's photo No 2 who we think is Basil. It hasn't been identified, it just goes under the title Who am I, and refers to this Rootschat article.
I don't know if you are aware that some, if not all our WAI items are out in Google land for everybody to see, for instance, if you google 'Ernest Moon, Balhomie' you can get a link to WAI no 10.
I see you have posted another for us Caz, you are keeping us busy. I find it so interesting.
Pat
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On more than one occasion I have been excited by a search result only to realise it was one of our threads! ;D ;D ;D However, chances are if there are people researching these same people, they may just drop into Roostchat. I just hope they make themselves known and just don't pinch the photos.
I think No.20 might go in the too hard basket as well as No. 12 and No 19, but you never know. :)
Caz
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Not sure, but could no. 5 possibly be another photo of the same man as in No. 8 (who we guess may be Arthur Moon). He appears to be wearing the same hat and has a liking for a checked jacket in both.
Caz, I think you have a side shot of the man in No. 5 in the original WAI
Agree - it looks like heart-throb no 8 and no 5 appear to be the same chap.
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I'm an idiot, as Jool said, the hat on heart throb No. 8 and also No. 5 is the same. ::) So I now revise my opinion and say that yes, that could well be Arthur Heart Throb Moon in both photos (well actually three if you count the side view one of him walking up the path). This would also explain the familiarity in standing quite close to Edith i.e. he's her brother and not some random that would have had to keep a respectful distance, especially in the presence of father Moon.
So that just leaves moustache man in photo 1.
Caz
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Here's the side shot of photo No. 5 who also may be heart throb No. 8, in case anyone couldn't find it
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Caz, could you post the full photo of No. 8 please (no, not just because I want to see all of him ;D)
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Heart throb and side view could be the same I think. Is that the same hat?
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Yes Ruskie, it looks like the same hat to me. I think the side view of No. 5 convinces me more that 5 & 8 are both Heart Throb. I would like to see the full photo of No. 8 to see if there are any other similarities between the two. But we still don't know for sure that this is Arthur Moon :-\
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Here is the full No 8. I think they are all the local pin up boy, but of course as you say, we have no proof it is Arthur.
Caz
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I think unknown tache is a gillie...He has those working class legging affairs..The others are in plus fours and socks,aristocratic shooting party apparel.. :)
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They all look pretty similar to me hepburn. ;)
Here is the full No 8. I think they are all the local pin up boy, but of course as you say, we have no proof it is Arthur.
Caz
I think they are all local pin up boys! ;) :-*
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I think unknown tache is a gillie...He has those working class legging affairs..The others are in plus fours and socks,aristocratic shooting party apparel.. :)
Hepburn, I think you may be right! I thought he didn't quite fit with the style of dress of the others, and as they have been/are about to go on a shoot a gillie is a very good suggestion.
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Caz, thanks for posting the full photo of No. 8. I am now even more convinced that No. 8 and No. 5 are the same man. In the side shot of No. 5 where he is standing next to the lady (possibly Edith) he is noticeably taller than the other two in the photo, the full photo of No. 8 also shows this man to be taller than the other men. Not conclusive, but another positive similarity between 5 & 8.
Thanks also for letting me see all of him. Not only dark and handsome but tall too ;D ;D
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I think Hepburn could be right, as I agree, he doesn't seem to have the same air about him and doesn't seem to carry himself like the others if you know what I mean, but then I ask myself why would they take a photo of the gamekeeper? It could be just because he has a cigarette stuck in his mouth that I'm getting that impression. I do notice he has a pocket hanky though!
They are quite a distinguished bunch, but yes I agree, tall dark and handsome is quite a 10 and I should imagine, would have been quite a catch! ;D ;D
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Notice the name in the notice of the Reverend Hanbury Tracy! I wonder if he is connected to "our" Hanbury's.
The descriptions of the outfits is amazing…shame there isn't a photo!!
Caz
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It sounds like a beautiful wedding, and eight bridesmaids :o It is such a shame there is no photo to confirm or deny if your photo is Arthur.
It might be worth checking out where the bridesmaids were living, we may find one of your other missing houses. I will look into the Rev. Hanbury Tracy, I think I have seen his name crop up in my searches before.
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Here's a starter on Rev A Hanbury Tracy, just need to find if he's related
Rev. the Hon. Alfred Francis Algernon Hanbury-Tracy, M.A. (Oxon.),
Vicar of St. Barnabas, Pimlico, S.W., b. 13 Oct. 1846; m. 21 Ap. 1868, Agnes
Jane, da. of Henry James Hoare of Morden Lodge
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Arthur and Marjorie are mentioned many times in the newspapers for catching big fish, the giving of needlework prices etc etc but not one blasted photo!!
They were still living in Balhomie when he died in 1961. I wonder what 225,000 pounds would be worth in today's terms.
Caz
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Here's a starter on Rev A Hanbury Tracy, just need to find if he's related
Rev. the Hon. Alfred Francis Algernon Hanbury-Tracy, M.A. (Oxon.),
Vicar of St. Barnabas, Pimlico, S.W., b. 13 Oct. 1846; m. 21 Ap. 1868, Agnes
Jane, da. of Henry James Hoare of Morden Lodge
I'm sure I remember seeing a Reverend mentioned in connection with the Hanbury's somewhere along the line.
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The newspaper report says Arthur and Marjorie were to spend their honeymoon in Bessborough, Ireland. Marjorie's mother was born Sara Kathleen Ponsonby. Sara Kathleen's father was Reverend Walter William Brabazon Ponsonby, 7th Earl of Bessborough, and her brother was Edward Ponsonby, 8th Earl of Bessborough. That probably explains the honeymoon venue.
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Wedding sounds like a fabulous affair. I note the prestigious London addresses where the families lived. ::)
There are different ways to calculate the value of money related to today. This calculator estimates that £225,000 in 1961 would be equivalent to around 4and a half million today. I think if you fiddle with the calculator you can get different results:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01f9v/
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Wow Ruskie, 4 and a half million!!! I cannot believe the wealth of the families who owned the houses in Caz's photos. What a fabulous collection to have (you lucky girl Caz ;D). I cannot help but wonder who owned and then gave up this wonderful collection of photos.
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I wonder whose collection this was too. I could never give them up even if they were not my family.
You'd expect it's likely to come onto the market through a house clearance.
Caz, have you heard from the person you purchased the photos from to see if they have more from the same lot? I'm hoping ..... :-\
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The newspaper report says Arthur and Marjorie were to spend their honeymoon in Bessborough, Ireland. Marjorie's mother was born Sara Kathleen Ponsonby. Sara Kathleen's father was Reverend Walter William Brabazon Ponsonby, 7th Earl of Bessborough, and her brother was Edward Ponsonby, 8th Earl of Bessborough. That probably explains the honeymoon venue.
Nothing like keeping it in the family!
That Rev Hanbury Tracey goes back to a John Hanbury, but can't see a connection to our Hanbury's unless he's a brother to Osgood Hanbury.
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Wow Ruskie, 4 and a half million!!! I cannot believe the wealth of the families who owned the houses in Caz's photos. What a fabulous collection to have (you lucky girl Caz ;D). I cannot help but wonder who owned and then gave up this wonderful collection of photos.
:o :o :o :o :o :o Quite a catch then Mr Hearthrob. I pretty sure he has living grandchildren, and possibly even one of his three children.
That's the thing though, they just look like your everyday happy snaps in my hand, but when they are scanned and viewed on screen (I have a Mac) they look magnificent. But of course,when you discover the story behind them, that's another thing yet again!
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I wonder whose collection this was too. I could never give them up even if they were not my family.
You'd expect it's likely to come onto the market through a house clearance.
Caz, have you heard from the person you purchased the photos from to see if they have more from the same lot? I'm hoping ..... :-\
I did and the answer was negative. I think these are people that just go around and buy stuff to sell for profit rather than collectors. :( I want to interrogate them and ask if they split the collection up (which I suspect they did), but their answer to my email was short and brief and reading between the lines it was more of your "mind your own business" response.
Not to worry, I'm more than happy with what I've got and the story behind them, well..goes without saying…AMAZING!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Caz
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Arthur was a QC, there must be a photo of him somewhere!!
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Jool
I think I might be thinking of Rev Trotter. :-\
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I wonder whose collection this was too. I could never give them up even if they were not my family.
You'd expect it's likely to come onto the market through a house clearance.
Caz, have you heard from the person you purchased the photos from to see if they have more from the same lot? I'm hoping ..... :-\
I did and the answer was negative. I think these are people that just go around and buy stuff to sell for profit rather than collectors. :( I want to interrogate them and ask if they split the collection up (which I suspect they did), but their answer to my email was short and brief and reading between the lines it was more of your "mind your own business" response.
Not to worry, I'm more than happy with what I've got and the story behind them, well..goes without saying…AMAZING!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Caz
That's a shame. :( Do you at least know whereabouts in the country they purchased these photos and under what circumstances ( house clearance or whatever)? It might give a clue about who let them go. :-\
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No, I know nothing at all unfortunately and the one line response spoke volumes.
Caz
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:(
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I know how you feel but all my instincts tell me there are more out there somewhere. :(
Caz
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Thank goodness you bought them Cazza, they're an absolute treasure 8)
Joy
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Yes, they've certainly gone to a good home. :) (and kept many people entertained and fruitfully occupied for many hours)
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Thank goodness you bought them Cazza, they're an absolute treasure 8)
Joy
Thanks Joy, can't believe my luck really! :o
Caz
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Yes, they've certainly gone to a good home. :) (and kept many people entertained and fruitfully occupied for many hours)
I had no idea what would have come from the WAI posts and to say I'm still gobsmacked is an understatement. All I can say is, it's been so much fun and a pleasure sharing them, not to mention going on this wonderful little journey of discovery with so many like minded people, who can appreciate the significance and history behind these wonderful little snaps! 8) 8) I've been very lucky indeed.
Caz
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An interesting read; thanks. To add a bit more to the Moon side of the story. Ernest Moon and his wife Emma also owned Braziers Park in Ipsden, Oxfordshire. They bought it in 1911 off of Valentine Fleming MP, of the Scottish Fleming & Co bank family and father of Ian Fleming. Ernest died there in 1930 and Lady Emma Moon died there in Dec. 1947. Son Arthur was the Executor of her estate. She and her husband are buried down the road from Braziers Park in the church yard at Checkendon. In 1950 Braziers Park was bought by a residential commune college which it still is today. One of the co- founders of the college was Maj. R Glynn Faithfull, father of Marianne Faithfull, who lived there as a young girl and returned in the mid-60s for awhile when her new boyfriend, Mick Jagger (and the rest of the Rolling Stones) would visit. It's also turned up in two episodes of Midsomer Murders. Paul
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To add a bit more to the Moon story, one of his grandchildren was living in 2003, in a four bedroomed detached bungalow on a road of similar properties. It was sold in 2010 for £210.000. I am not sure I should name the person or the place but the information is on Google.
Pat
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Excellent additional information Paul.
A bungalow? Only worth £210.000? :( The families fortunes must have dispersed.
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An interesting read; thanks. To add a bit more to the Moon side of the story. Ernest Moon and his wife Emma also owned Braziers Park in Ipsden, Oxfordshire. They bought it in 1911 off of Valentine Fleming MP, of the Scottish Fleming & Co bank family and father of Ian Fleming. Ernest died there in 1930 and Lady Emma Moon died there in Dec. 1947. Son Arthur was the Executor of her estate. She and her husband are buried down the road from Braziers Park in the church yard at Checkendon. In 1950 Braziers Park was bought by a residential commune college which it still is today. One of the co- founders of the college was Maj. R Glynn Faithfull, father of Marianne Faithfull, who lived there as a young girl and returned in the mid-60s for awhile when her new boyfriend, Mick Jagger (and the rest of the Rolling Stones) would visit. It's also turned up in two episodes of Midsomer Murders. Paul
Gee, we are getting enough information about these photos to write a very interesting novel! ;D Thanks so much for the additional research Paul. The names, places and events surrounding these people are something else.
Caz
PS Any Midsomer Murders fans out there, the films were "Market for Murder" and "Second Sight".
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To add a bit more to the Moon story, one of his grandchildren was living in 2003, in a four bedroomed detached bungalow on a road of similar properties. It was sold in 2010 for £210.000. I am not sure I should name the person or the place but the information is on Google.
Pat
It appears there could be a few Grandchildren through Arthur's daughter Penelope. It's possible that Penelope is still alive as well, but I need to check that. I think it was you Pat that found out the Penelope married Count Thomas Lubienski and they had five children, born between 1952 and 1962. I wonder if any of them have traced their family history!
Caz
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Excellent additional information Paul.
A bungalow? Only worth £210.000? :( The families fortunes must have dispersed.
The bigger the family becomes, the more the beneficiaries, the smaller the inheritance I suppose. Of course, I should imagine the tax man took a great wad and I wouldn't mind betting as you often see on WDYTYA episodes ;D, family fortunes being lost through poor investment decisions, failure of the industry, technology or just plain wasting it away!!
The actual Wills of the Moons, Hanburys and Clifton Browns would be fascinating to read and trace where the family fortunes ended up or were lost. None of our business of course, but none the less probably a very good read! ;D ;D
Caz
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Caz, Penelope is the grandchild of Sir Ernest Moon, her children are great grand children. As you say. the more descendants, the more the inheritance is disbursed. I think their wills would make interesting reading.
Pat
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Or unfair dividing of assets? All went to oldest son perhaps?
Or like in my family (though nowhere like in the same league) the family house and lion's share of money and shares went to an unmarried daughter who was burdened with looking after a younger (less abled) brother and had no life of her own. ::)
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I am so fascinated by all of this family, I have been doing a little digging :D
If you go to thepeerage.com (http://thepeerage.com) person page 51639 there is an entry there for
one of the Count and his wife's children that says she was adopted by an unknown person. Then it
goes on to give who she married.
I wonder what that was all about :-\
All of the children are mentioned on that site with spouse names and GG/Grandchildren's names
of Sir Ernest Moon and Emma Lamb.
I just thought it was interesting 8) ;D
Joy
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A novel indeed, perhaps like an Agatha Christie one who lived up the road from Braziers in her later life and passed away there. Interestingly perhaps, I've found a letter d/d 2 Nov. 1924 written from Braziers Park congratulating Conservative MP, Sir William Bridgeman on his election victory. signed W Mount. I think this W Mount is possibly Sir William Mount, MP for Newbury and also a barrister. He must have been visiting the Moon's residence as his own estate was near Aldermaston. He had a son of the same name who got married in 1929 at the village church in Moulsford, Berks. Not that far from Braziers as it happens. But an odd choice of place to have his marriage for its a small place even today, but it did used to have the training school for staff of the Berkshire Lunatic Asylum at Cholsey.
Still, his newly married son had a daughter named Mary Fleur Mount who would later marry a Scottish stockbroker named Ian Cameron, and their son is David Cameron, PM. With their estate in Scotland shown on the thread, a nice house in London I'm sure, it made me wonder why Herbert Moon bothered buying Braziers Park off Valentine Fleming? The school bought it in 1950 for £8,600. Paul
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I love the information you are providing Wahian! And you have a great turn of phrase too. :)
I'm off to look at The Peerage now Joy. ;)
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That is very mysterious Joy. The way I read it is that Penelope and Count Lubienski adopted a child (name unknown).
Looking at a few of the other family members they all seemed to have ended up in nice houses. Penelope's sister Christine lived here:
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-146489-the-red-house-hambledon-hampshire#.VVAElsIcQy8
Added: Looking further, it says that their daughter Mary Elizabeth was adopted by an unknown person. That's odd ... :-\
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Caz, Penelope is the grandchild of Sir Ernest Moon, her children are great grand children. As you say. the more descendants, the more the inheritance is disbursed. I think their wills would make interesting reading.
Pat
Sorry Pat, I wasn't very clear. I meant Grandchildren of Arthur Moon AKA Heart Throb. ;D ::)
Caz
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Or unfair dividing of assets? All went to oldest son perhaps?
Or like in my family (though nowhere like in the same league) the family house and lion's share of money and shares went to an umnmarried daughter who was burdened with looking after a younger (less abled) brother and had no life of her own. ::)
Who gambled it all away... ;D ;D Oh wait, that's Wuthering Heights! ;D ;D ;D
Seriously though I agree, primogeniture I should imagine would have lost a few family fortunes through mismanagement.
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Hey Caz, I was looking at The Peerage at all the descendants who are still well and truly living and wondered if any of them have photos of any of these Moons? I'd like to see some more photos of Arthur. :P ;) :-*
How about chasing some of them up and sending them a nice email including photo/s and link to the appropriate threads? I'll bet they will be findable via social media and other means.
They may also be able to confirm if you have put the right names to the right faces?
And, maybe you will even be able to enlighten them about their family. ;D
Yeah, do it! ;D
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Or unfair dividing of assets? All went to oldest son perhaps?
Or like in my family (though nowhere like in the same league) the family house and lion's share of money and shares went to an unmarried daughter who was burdened with looking after a younger (less abled) brother and had no life of her own. ::)
Who gambled it all away... ;D ;D Oh wait, that's Wuthering Heights! ;D ;D ;D
Seriously though I agree, primogeniture I should imagine would have lost a few family fortunes through mismanagement.
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Sorry, made a mistake here ....
Re The Red House. For one moment I thought it might be William Morris's (my hero) Red House but that is in Bexley Heath. :)
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I am so fascinated by all of this family, I have been doing a little digging :D
If you go to thepeerage.com (http://thepeerage.com) person page 51639 there is an entry there for
one of the Count and his wife's children that says she was adopted by an unknown person. Then it
goes on to give who she married.
I wonder what that was all about :-\
All of the children are mentioned on that site with spouse names and GG/Grandchildren's names
of Sir Ernest Moon and Emma Lamb.
I just thought it was interesting 8) ;D
Joy
It is fascinating and every time we turn a corner there's something else that's equally if not more fascinating about these families and their very upper class lives!
Caz
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A novel indeed, perhaps like an Agatha Christie one who lived up the road from Braziers in her later life and passed away there. Interestingly perhaps, I've found a letter d/d 2 Nov. 1924 written from Braziers Park congratulating Conservative MP, Sir William Bridgeman on his election victory. signed W Mount. I think this W Mount is possibly Sir William Mount, MP for Newbury and also a barrister. He must have been visiting the Moon's residence as his own estate was near Aldermaston. He had a son of the same name who got married in 1929 at the village church in Moulsford, Berks. Not that far from Braziers as it happens. But an odd choice of place to have his marriage for its a small place even today, but it did used to have the training school for staff of the Berkshire Lunatic Asylum at Cholsey.
Still, his newly married son had a daughter named Mary Fleur Mount who would later marry a Scottish stockbroker named Ian Cameron, and their son is David Cameron, PM. With their estate in Scotland shown on the thread, a nice house in London I'm sure, it made me wonder why Herbert Moon bothered buying Braziers Park off Valentine Fleming? The school bought it in 1950 for £8,600. Paul
It's just a virtual Who's Who isn't it? I don't know where you are finding this information Paul, but keep it coming…brilliant stuff!
Caz
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I know people bag them, but I quite like the upper classes. ;D
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Hey Caz, I was looking at The Peerage at all the descendants who are still well and truly living and wondered if any of them have photos of any of these Moons? I'd like to see some more photos of Arthur. :P ;) :-*
How about chasing some of them up and sending them a nice email including photo/s and link to the appropriate threads? I'll bet they will be findable via social media and other means.
They may also be able to confirm if you have put the right names to the right faces?
And, maybe you will even be able to enlighten them about their family. ;D
Yeah, do it! ;D
I'll try and trace some on the obvious genealogy websites and see how we go. I think they might be slightly gobsmacked to learn about the fascination we have for their family! There are a couple of private family trees containing the Moons on Ancestry, which gives me hope they are near descendants (as opposed to 32nd cousins, 25 times removed! ;D).
Watch this space…..
Caz
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I know people bag them, but I quite like the upper classes. ;D
Hey look..I'm coming back as:
a) a descendant of fabulously wealthy Edwardians
b) and I will own multiple mansions
c) mainly in Scotland! ;D ;D ;D ;D
And I certainly would not knock back a title or two!!! ;D ;D ;D
Lady Caz ;D ::)
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;D :D ;D ;D ;D Me too 8) ;D
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Of course, we are over looking the obvious. If you are a direct descendant of any of these families, your family tree is already done, so there would be no point in them reinventing the wheel. Consequently, finding a contact that would have intimate knowledge or photos, might prove quite difficult.
Caz
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;D :D ;D ;D ;D Me too 8) ;D
And me!!!! ;D
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Of course, we are over looking the obvious. If you are a direct descendant of any of these families, your family tree is already done, so there would be no point in them reinventing the wheel. Consequently, finding a contact that would have intimate knowledge or photos, might prove quite difficult.
Caz
If we (I mean you) can find any contacts I think it would be worth contacting them. It's photos I'm interested in. And yes, I'm sure they will find it odd that a load of strangers are so obsessed with their family. But they might be pleased with all the extra information found (which doesn't appear in The Peerage). And then there is the possibility of finding more photos. Did I already mention photos? ;D
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;D :D ;D ;D ;D Me too 8) ;D
And me!!!! ;D
My invite for tea and cucumber sandwiches is in the mail Lady Joy and Lady Ruskie. ;D
Caz
(Losing the plot! ;D ;D)
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Of course, we are over looking the obvious. If you are a direct descendant of any of these families, your family tree is already done, so there would be no point in them reinventing the wheel. Consequently, finding a contact that would have intimate knowledge or photos, might prove quite difficult.
Caz
If we (I mean you) can find any contacts I think it would be worth contacting them. It's photos I'm interested in. And yes, I'm sure they will find it odd that a load of strangers are so obsessed with their family. But they might be pleased with all the extra information found (which doesn't appear in The Peerage). And then there is the possibility of finding more photos. Did I already mention photos? ;D
I agree totally. It would be a shame to come this far and not actually contact living descendants if at all possible, especially with a view to positive identification and of course, more photos! ;D
Caz
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Yes please, to tea and cucumber sandwiches! ;D
You might need to try a few descendants Caz. Maybe the young ones born in the 90s if you can't locate their parents. Most kids have an online profile these days. Good luck. ;D
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Ladies (and Gentlemen of course) ;D I was digging around yesterday and found some possible direct descendants of the Moons who are still living, with addresses :D If you are interested in contacting them Caz I can pm you the details. I wasn't sure if you were ready to go to the "making contact" stage yet.
Lady Jool ::)
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Hi Caz, I have sent you a pm with the details of 2 Moon descendants I have found so far, both are grandchildren of Arthur Moon.
If anyone else wants to have a search this website is very helpful.
http://www.freefindpeopleuk.co.uk/Electoral_Roll_Search.asp
Once you have the location you can search the internet for more clues.
I must say this does feel a bit like stalking though :-\
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Hi all Moon watchers, I've just found contact details of yet another grandchild of Arthur Heart Throb Moon, details have been sent to Caz by pm. Here's hoping Caz gets a positive response if she makes contact.
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Jool, well done. I think you have your priorities right searching for Arthur's descendants first. ;D
Yes, it does seem a bit like stalking - I understand how you feel - but it is with good intentions and hopefully might be of interest to both them, and Caz and all of us who are following these threads. :)
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Jool, well done. I think you have your priorities right searching for Arthur's descendants first. ;D
Yes, it does seem a bit like stalking - I understand how you feel - but it is with good intentions and hopefully might be of interest to both them, and Caz and all of us who are following these threads. :)
Ruskie, photos of Arthur are top of my list (and everyone else's I think) ;D.
I don't feel comfortable stalking, but having said that all the details are freely available on the internet through their businesses etc. I just hope they aren't freaked out by a bunch of family historians taking so much interest in people who have nothing to do with them :o
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That's what family historians do. We can't help it. We're just
curious.nosey ...
No, it's really all just a big mystery to solve isn't it? You feel compelled to chase up as many leads as you can find, and with this family there is quite a lot out there due to their wealth.
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So do I Jool ;) However like you said the information is freely available and they will
see from the threads that we're harmless and just fascinated by how the 'other half live.' With
all the super sleuths on these threads it's amazing that there are still mysteries to be solved ;D 8)
Joy
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Well, you can all start pacing the floor as I've sent off an email about five minutes ago. :o
Of course we may not get a response, particularly if they think my email is some sort of scam (hopefully they will Google and see we are 100% legitimate), or they feel we are invading their privacy, which of course we are, but as Ruskie says, that's what genealogists do! ;D ;D
Anyway, let's hope we have an ending to this thread that we are all hoping for and we get actual contact from a living descendant, positive identification of the other people in the photos and without wanting to push our luck, maybe more photos of the Edwardian Moons!
Once again, excellent work from Jool and her detective skills! ;D
Caz
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I hope they don't dismiss your email as a scam of some sort. It would be a bit of a weird one though as you're not really asking for anything or telling them to click on a link. Or. Did you provide a link to these Moon threads? :-\
On tenterhooks here ....
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Tenterhooks here too Ruskie :D
Joy...pacing...pacing...pacing
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I hope they don't dismiss your email as a scam of some sort. It would be a bit of a weird one though as you're not really asking for anything or telling them to click on a link. Or. Did you provide a link to these Moon threads? :-\
On tenterhooks here ....
Hopefully I worded the email so they will keep reading through and do some research on Rootschat to show that it isn't a scam (sign of the times isn't it). I also provided a link to this thread so with a bit of luck they will read it from beginning to end.
It would be so nice and a fitting "ending" to this thread even if they popped in and said hello! ;D
Caz
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Tenterhooks here too Ruskie :D
Joy...pacing...pacing...pacing
Me too and I bet Jool will be too! ;D ;D
Caz
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Great stuff Caz, I'm on tenterhooks too!! Fingers and everything I've got crossed ;D
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Best of luck Caz, very interested in any update.. I'm sure the Moons and Clifton Brown's were friends from law school way back as Edward and Ernest Moon studied law.
John
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Well I have just checked my emails and there isn't one from you Caz, so it isn't me!!
I would love to hear the outcome of this, we are all very friendly people who have stumbled on another group of people who lived in times past. Their way of life, homes, family have kept us absorbed for quite a while and it would be lovely to know how accurate we are in our findings.
Please, please, let us hear soon.
Pat
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This cross references from Where Am I No 3 where we talk about Archibald Murray.
Opinions greatly appreciated as to whether these two men are one and the same.
Caz
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The likeness looks good to me...
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Me too, but I'm afraid I'm seeing what I want to see…..
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I've tried to do a comparison photo but I'm not very good at that. Unfortunately the one we know to be Archibald Murray is such a small photo. They do look alike though.
Pat
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Pat have you seen my posting above on both threads?
Caz
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Scroll to the right, you will see I've done a side by side.
They look alike to me but I could be biased.
Caz
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Sorry Caz didn't see the scroll across bar. Could be, but I am not sure!
Pat
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To me:
a) They have very similar shaped faces.
b) Their chins are also the same shape.
c) The mo is also about the same size and thickness.
d) They appear to be the same build.
Not conclusive by any means, but enough to suggest it could be him. It's just a shame we can't see the hair and eyes in my pic. :(
Caz
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Of course, we have other circumstantial evidence that you found, in that we know Archibald Murray must have been at Balholmie in 1907.
Caz
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Have a look at this, in the first one I cropped away the cigarette. In the second one, I overlaid Archibald on top of Unknown man.
Caz
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I really think you have identified him. All the facial evidence and then of course the fact we know he was at Balhomie in 1907 [a fact I had completely overlooked] I would think makes this a positive identification. What does everybody ele think?
Well done Caz.
Pat
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Yes I would agree with that too.
Carol
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After looking at the Peerage page,it's amazing how many of the Gentry came from Perthshire..
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I'm in agreement with the identification, pity we cannot see more around the eyes but the rest of the facial features are very similar, I'm sure I've seen Archie on one or two of the other threads..
John
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I'm convinced now that they're the same man, the overlay clinches it
for me ;)
Joy
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I think it is possible they are the same man, but still wondering whether the moustache is clouding my judgement :-\
We know that Archibald and Dulcie were at Balhomie between 9th-14th October 1907 from "Grandmothers photo album". Archie would have been 40 years old and Dulcie 34. I think the unknown man does look about 40 in the photo.
Archibald and Dulcie had only been married 6 months when they signed the photo album. They married at St. George Hanover Square, London on 9th April 1907. I wonder if the wedding was reported in the newspapers, it may also list guest names.
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I think there is a very strong possibility it is him, but I would not stake my house on it. Apart from the looks, as we've mentioned, we know Archibald was at Balholmie in 1907 and we dated the Clifton Brown photos at around 1907 based on the children's ages, so timeframe also fits.
Caz
PS I think the mo is a good match :-\ :-\
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Yes Caz, I agree the mo is a good match - that is one serious mo! The thing that is bothering me is that Archibald's nose looks more prominent than unknown man's nose, or it may just be the way the sunlight is bouncing off it ;D
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I agree, the tip of his nose is prominent, but I actually think it is because it's not shaded, were as Unknown man is in shade. Could be grasping at straws, but for now he's the best candidate we have, in my opinion, unless he is the other person named on that sheet that Pat found, "Joseph Shaw".
I think it was Hepburn that mentioned on the other thread, about whether the couple with the lady seated in the funny chair could be Archibald's parents, Charles Archibald and Francis Elizabeth Murray. I also think that could be a possibility if Taymount House (their family home) is near Balholmie. I've been trying to find a photo of T House without the white paint but no luck. Also photos of Charles Murray for comparison, but as usual I get an "F"! ;D
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Hi Caz, Taymount is approx. 6 miles from Balhomie along the River Tay. I have found an old photo of Taymount before it was painted, I think it is a side view though
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I think it was Hepburn that mentioned on the other thread, about whether the couple with the lady seated in the funny chair could be Archibald's parents, Charles Archibald and Francis Elizabeth Murray. I also think that could be a possibility if Taymount House (their family home) is near Balholmie. I've been trying to find a photo of T House without the white paint but no luck. Also photos of Charles Murray for comparison, but as usual I get an "F"! ;D
Archibald's father, Charles Archibald Murray, was born in 1836 so he would be about 71 in 1907. Archibald's mother, Adelaide Emily Fielding, died young in 1870 so it can't be her in the photo. Charles A Murray remarried to Blanche Moncrieffe in 1901 so it could possibly her in the funny chair, she would be 58 in 1907. ( just can't find the picture of the funny chair at the moment ::))
Ahh, found the funny chair - photo no. 10 here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=719387.msg5631498#msg5631498
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Jool, I just found that photo too. I can't place Joseph Shaw not really enough to go on there. I can't find any more photos of Charles for comparison.
I am still looking.
Pat
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Hi Caz, Taymount is approx. 6 miles from Balhomie along the River Tay. I have found an old photo of Taymount before it was painted, I think it is a side view though
Looks like we need a photo of the back of the house ::) What I do like is the long windows that are obviously painted dark, just like in my photo. The exact design of the windows doesn't match, but then I notice in that postcard, there are three different types of windows (the windows on the far left look like they could be church or chapel windows).
Six miles from Balholmie…walking distance!!!
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It would be good if a photo of taymount house could be found,especially if it has window sills.
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Here are a few views of Taymount House. I know they are more modern, but I don't think they will have changed the windows.
1] Looks like the front
2] Same view as the older picture above
3 & 4] I think are the same view, one older than the other.
I don't think this is the house with the low window sill.
Pat
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I think you're right Pat. Cross that one off the list although it would have been a nice match seeing as though Taymount house is only 6 miles from Balholmie. Next….. ;D
Caz