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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Fordyce on Monday 27 April 15 23:56 BST (UK)
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Looking for any firm info on the parentage of the husband and wives in the following two marriage events. I believe there's a case for the husbands James Geddes to be one and the same person.
1st:
1 Jan 1803: James Geddes in Forglen marr Janet Hacket in Banff (recorded in Forglen & Banff)
No further sightings, except for:-
31 Aug 1804: dau Jean Geddes born in Kebholes, Forglen
26 Jan 1828 dau Jean Geddes, at Burnside Forglen, marries William Jamieson in Nether Crannabog Forglen.
The couple stay in Crannabog Forglen for life. Jamiesons tenanted Crannabog for many years.
When Jean Geddes dies in 1871, her son records her parents as James Geddes farmer & ---- Halket, which suggests mother Hacket died early on and father Geddes survived.
2nd:
5 Feb 1825 James Geddes in Forglen marr Margaret Jamieson in Alvah (recorded in Forglen & Alvah)
No further sightings.
Two possibles for Janet Hacket are:
bpt 21 Jan 1774 Fordyce (b Reidstack) to James Hacket & Janet Dick
bpt 17 Aug 1780 Fordyce (b Rumblingpots) to Alexander Hacket & Agnes Gray
Two possibles for Margaret Jamieson are:
bpt 30-6-1772 Alvah to George Jamieson & Mary Robertson
bpt 17-11-1790 Alvah to William Jamieson & Jean Andrew
(indeed, a James Andrew, b Alvah, age 47/58 was at Kebholes in 1841/1851)
Kebholes and Crannabog were part of the Mountblairy Estate, and Crannabog at least became part of the Forglen Estate, owned by Sir George Abercromby who also owned the Birkenbog Estate in Fordyce. My Geddes folks were established tenants on several farms on the Birkenbog Estate for very many years, a James Geddes being tenant at New Park in 1777.
The New Park James Geddes is a mystery. He's probably the father of illeg Alexander Geddes (b 1786/87 no record), but otherwise he completely disappears. There was a massive upheaval due to the 'famine years' in the 1780s so it wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that this James Geddes moved away (like his brother Peter Geddes and his wife and family who also seemingly completely disappear after 1785), only to turn up in Forglen. Perhaps his improvement of New Park failed (the hint that it was unimproved land is in the name - in 1777 all but 3 acres was 'new land' - next door Breach was occupied by 'Sundries' at the time so wasn't even the farm it eventually became).
It's plausible but I need more than that!
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Hello Fordyce,
Can’t answer your questions directly, I’m afraid, but wondered if you’ve looked at the ANESFHS site. There are quite a few Geddes & Jamieson records that may help sort out your family groups. This one may or may not be relevant.
Kirkyard of Inverkeithny – stone: 214
William Jamieson 28 Apr 1859
John Jamieson 19 Apr 1867
Jane Geddes 22 Jul 1871
Jane Jamieson 21 Dec 1920
George Jamieson n.d.
James Jamieson n.d.
William Jamieson n.d.
Andrew Jamieson n.d.
http://www.anesfhs.org.uk/databank/miindex/miindex.php
Also, from SP Wills:
JAMIESON WILLIAM 14/03/1862 FARMER AT LOWER CRANNABOG / BANFF SHERIFF COURT SC2/40/19 (3 pages)
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Thanks for replying, Br1gau. That Will is nearly three years after his death - that's quite a delay but I cannot see that being significant.
Unfortunately it does appear the family had partially forgotten their mother's parentage.
I believe I've got all the info there is about her and her parents from all the resources I know of.
With so little to go on, it's no more than speculation that James Geddes' Margaret Jamieson is connected to the Crannabog Jamiesons; that Janet Hacket is related to the Fordyce Hackets; that James Geddes came from Fordyce. So, here's hoping for something perhaps from the Hacket (or Halket) angle - e.g. is someone wondering what happened to their Janet Hacket?!
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I may have a family connection to the Lower Crannabog farm as my 2x Great grandfather, John Wright b 1850 in Marnoch, is listed on the 1861 census as living there. John Wright is age 11 at that time and it seems like there should be a family connection to James Jamieson (listed as Head of Household) for someone so young to be living with another family. Any comments would be appreciated.
Tom Wright
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Hullo Tom,
I see that your John Wright at Lower Crannabog in 1861 age 11 and a scholar has his relationship to head of household James Jamieson recorded as being a servant. I don't see it as being particularly unusual him being a servant at age 11 but it is odd that he's also noted as a scholar. Looking at the actual census entry, I feel that him being a servant is an error in the census, the people preceding and following obviously being servants, and they being the '2 men and 1 girl' employed by the farmer James Jamieson. So, we cannot tell his real relationship from the census.
But I also see John Wright's baptism details say that he was brn 28-11-1850 bpt 21-4-1851 Marnoch natural son of John Wright "now in 12th Batn. Royal Artillery" & Isabella Simpson; registered 29 Dec 1855.
And the 1851 census shows John Wright age 4m at Castlehill in Marnoch, obviously with his mother Isabella Simpson. That Simpson family was in Castlehill for many years - Isabella herself was born there in 1827. Castlehill is east of Aberchirder towards Carnousie. The Crannabogs and Kebholes are a mile or so due north. I guess Lower Crannabog is on the OS map as Nether Crannabog.
I suspect father John Wright disappeared off the scene - do you know more on him? The National Archives at Kew should have a good deal more on John Wright's military service. Maybe there are regimental records that might identify him.
For sure, mother Isabella Simpson married George Chalmers 21 Feb 1852, and perhaps (I've seen this before) the new husband didn't welcome the presence of his stepson John Wright, this explaining why John Wright is not with his mother in 1861. Isabella Simpson & George Chalmers had five children, some of whom can be found in later years scattered around Banffshire and Aberdeenshire, but the parents seem to have evaded the censuses, in particular and annoyingly the 1861 census.
Isabel Simpson died 3 Feb 1873 age 44 in Aberchirder, a pauper albeit recorded as still married to George Chalmers a labourer - the inspector of poor was her informant. It looks as though the family had split up and she had been left to fend for herself.
So, in that context, the question is why was John Wright at Lower Crannabog in 1861? If he wasn't a servant working on the land, was he a boarder, a visitor or had he been taken in and was being brought up by Jane Geddes?
As far as I can tell, this Simpson family as a whole is unrelated to the Geddes/Jamieson family in Lower Crannabog. It's unlikely that John Wright was simply taken in by them out of the goodness of their hearts, and if he makes no reference to him being brought up in that family, then perhaps he wasn't adopted by them either. That leaves him being a (paying) temporary boarder - supporting the notion that the family was in bits.
In the course of gathering these comments, I discovered that James Geddes in Kebholes witnessed the baptism of Andrew Geddes s/o John Geddes in Brigshillock, Alvah & Mary Morison on 17 Nov 1825, and thus probably Andrew's brother James in 1822. The same James Geddes in Kebholes witnessed on 5 Mar 1834 Jane Geddes' son James in Nether Crannabog Forglen (thus the witness was the child's grandfather). That John Geddes in Brigshillock was in Slains, Abn when he married and had their first child Ann. This combination shows that Brigshillock's John and Kebholes' James are likely to be brothers, likely to have been born in Slains or thereabouts, and thus not related to 'my' James Geddes of my original post - though I need to mull that one over.
The Slains' Ann Geddes married George Simpson; they became tenants in Brigshillock and this is where one of your Chalmers was in 1881. At present, I still don't think this George Simpson is connected to your Isabella Simpson, but maybe you have more on the Simpson side.
Think that's enough to chew over! How does any of the above fit in with what you know about your Simpsons and Wrights?
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It looks as if it might be worth a look in the parochial board records in Forglen and Marnoch to see if perhaps the parish was paying for John Wright to board with the Jamieson family. Also to see what they say about Isabel Simpson. That's assuming of course that the relevant records have survived. If they have they should be in Aberdeen Archives https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/libraries-and-archives/aberdeen-city-and-aberdeenshire-archives
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Hello Fordyce & Forfarian,
Thank you for all the information on my John Wright and family!
A little background on my great-grandfather, John Wright b1850 Marnoch. He immigrated to the USA in 1872, first to Wisconsin and finally settling in Minnesota to raise his family of 5 children. He married in 1877 to Annie Donald, b 1854 Chapel of Garioch, Aberdeenshire. Although they did not marry in Scotland, I find them in the 1871 census on the same farm both listed as servants (East Fingask, Daviot, Arberdeenshire). Both died relatively young, John at age 50 and Annie at age 35, and thus our family has "lost" the family history of their life in Scotland.
I have seen John Wright's baptism document and 1851 & 1861 census record but did not have the marriage record of Isabella Simpson (John Wright's mother) to George Chalmers. You mentioned there were 5 children from that marriage. Do you have their names and birth dates? One of the family stories is that John immigrated with one of his brothers (half brother if it was one of these children) but they had a falling out and never stayed in touch after immigrating.
I'm still trying to find information on my John Wright's father (also named John Wright) who is listed on the baptism record as with the 12th Batt. Royal Artillery in 1855. This was during the Crimean War and my research shows 4 people with that name and in the 12th battalion (2 of them were killed). I need to see if i can find more details on these people to see if one is the correct one. You suggested the National Archives at Kew. I'm in the USA so I will see if I can research those records on-line.
Thank you for all the information. My brother, me and our wives are planning a trip to Scotland the summer of 2019 so I'm researching this with the hope to visit the areas where our family resided. I continue to build our Scotland family tree as I find new information.
Regards,
Tom Wright
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Hi Tom
As you say, there are a number of possible John Wright that might fit with the 12 Battalion RA ref. I saw this entry and noted place of birth as perhaps relevant http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13215433
Age is close to Isabella Simpson. Enlistment year is given as 1853. Did he show as a soldier in the 1850 and 1851 Parish Register entries or the belated entry in 1855?
Other John Wrights connected to the 12 Battalion include:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13200009
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13200104
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13199982
Monica
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Some details on George Chalmers and Isabella Simpson:
http://decfam.tripod.com/i0000051.htm
Monica
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http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13200104
There really ought to be a place called Luffbenvery! This will be the parish of Liff and Benvie, which is next door to Dundee and into which the city has expanded.
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Hullo Tom,
I've attached my notes in a PDF. Hoepfully most is self-explanatory. Everything is verifiable if needs be - in other words it's not guesswork unless I've used some sort of qualification like "said to be".
"SPI" means "ScotlandsPeople's Index" - you can get an image of the actual registration using their website.
MonicaL's link is to Declan Chalmers' tree. If that is the family of 'your' George Simpson, he's one of mine! Albeit a very-distant one of mine - the lines meet at William Chalmers in Muiryhill around 1710. I have in my tree a nephew of 'your' George Chalmers named Alexander Simpson Chalmers born abt 1842 in Forgue - even though this is 10 years before Isabella Simpson & George Chalmers married, I did wonder whether there was a connection!
I have been in contact with Declan in the past in the context of my own Chalmers line. Didn't occur to me that 'your' George leads back there! Bit late now, so will post this now and see in the morning if I can confirm that I am (distantly) related to your Simpson/Chalmers family group.
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Although there is no explicit proof, on balance George Chalmers is s/o John Chalmers & Jane Tocher. Because:
- a witness to daughter Isabella Chalmers is Jane Tocher.
- daughter Elspet birth details are "Elspet Simpson Chalmers 13-8-1855 11.50am Aberchirder, father George Chalmers ag lab age 32 [if Jane Tocher's son, actually 31 nearly 32] born Marnoch, married 1855 [actually 1852] at Marnoch, mother Isabella Chalmers ms Simpson age 27 [correct] born Marnoch her 2nd child [actually her 3rd]. Inf: Isabella Chalmers mother [signed]. Reg: 31-8-1855." - B-1855-161(Marnoch)-63.
- in first two baptism records he is down as a labourer, same as in 1855
- he was born Marnoch
Anyway, that gives me a little more direct interest in the Chalmers/Simpson family group, although on reviewing my notes, I haven't actually proved my Chalmers line from 4xgtgdmother Isobel Chalmers (marr abt 1781) back to Declan's Alvah Chalmers.
Be that as it may, it's odd that George Chalmers simply doesn't appear anywhere anywhen.
After creative cap on, I at last found the family in 1861!
1861: Mid St Aberchirder (161 ED6 Sch 127)
Isabella Chambers Head Marr 32 Marnoch Ag Lab's Wife
Elspet Chambers Dau 5 Marnoch Scholar
Alexander Chambers Son 3 Marnoch
Ann Chambers Son 1 Marnoch
1861: North St Aberchirder 161 ED6 P 13 Sch 95 in h/h William Robertson
Isobel Chambers Lodger 8 Marnoch
No sign of Jane Chalmers, unless she is:-
1861: Mid St Aberchirder 161 ED5 P 14 Sch 90 in h/h Elisabeth Milton
Jane Chalmers Boarder 8 Rothiemay Scholar
After a dint, I found her in 1871 in Mid St North Side (ED6 Sch 75 Line 20)
Isabella Chalmers Wife [sic - not Head] 43 Marnoch Pauper Lab's Wife
No sign of husband - unless the actual census itelf is incorrect he's not there. Certainly she's there by herself.
Check out the Valuation Rolls (at ScotlandsPeople) for 1855 and 1865.
1855: Could George Chalmers (and family?) be there in 1855 (in dwelling house and part garden North St).
1865: there's an entry for a George Chalmers (in part house and part garden Middle St South Side) and an entry for an Isobel Chalmers (in dwelling house and part garden Middle St North Side). Does this show she threw him out?
1875: nothing.
Where did he go?!
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Hi Fordyce & MonicaL,
I found the passenger manifest of the immigration of my g-grandfather, John Wright b. 28 Nov 1850 Marnoch, and his step-brother, Alex Chalmers, b. 22 Apr 1857 Marnoch. They came to the USA arriving 29 Mar 1876 on the ship Algeria at the port of New York. I'm sure this is them because they are traveling together and the ages are correct (see attached). This confirms the family story that John Wright immigrated with a brother who we now know to have been Alex Chalmers. So far, I have not been able to find any additional information on Alex Chalmers in the USA.
I previously had stated my g-grandfather had arrived in 1872 but that was incorrect.
Tom
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That is great news, Tom. Struggling to see a trace of Alexander so far after his arrival in the US :-\
Monica
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Tom, well done finding that record. But the 1874 naturalisation document looks pretty appropriate too. Is it possible that John Wright, having first immigrated in 1872 and become naturalised in 1874, returned to Scotland and brought back with him his half-brother, so he wasn't actually immigrating in 1876 - just returning, by now a US Citizen?
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Fordyce, I haven't ruled out that he went back to Scotland and returned with his brother. I have looked for another "John Wright" with the same age in Racine Wisconsin area during that time and I cannot find any close matches.
Are you aware of any records (ship manifests) that would show people returning to Scotland?
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Tom, pre 1878 is tricky. See www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/passengers/
Monica
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Tom, no I'm not. As MonicaL says, tricky!
But the naturalisation chitty of 16 Oct 1874 at Racine states he was born abt 1850 in Scotland and that he landed at Baltimore "in or about" Sep 1872. These Baltimore passenger lists do seem to have survived. One has a John Knight arriving in Apr 1872 - h'mmm a mis-recording of Wright? Or maybe even he travelled under an assumed name.
But the chitty also has his signature. Your best bet would be if there some other document/letter of your John Wright you can get hold of which has his signature to compare.
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I'm comparing the signature of John Wright on his 1874 USA Naturalization form to his signature on his 2nd marriage certificate from 1890 (1st wife passed away). I see similarities of writing slant, "John", "W" is written very pointy and finishes overtop the "r", crossing of the "t'.
Are they the same person? Comments appreciated.
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There are differences, but I see more similarities than not.
Monica
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I'm no graphologist, so I wouldn't like to say for definite. Put it this way: the two signatures could be by the same person, which is one stage better than saying they couldn't be. All you need now is a third signature......
Any advances on John Wright the soldier? I'm asking because I do have several John Wrights in my tree, three local ones of the right age are known in 1841 (assuming he was about the same age as Isabel Simpson), all in Deskford and all Ag Labs: at Clochmacreich (age 14), Ordens (13), Greenhill (13). The Clochmacreich John Wright is known and a distant cousin of mine, is younger than recorded in the census, and can be discounted even though he was living in Marnoch in 1851. But the Greenhill John Wright (also a distant cousin of mine) was still there in 1851 and then disappears without trace, despite his schoolmate writing in the 1880s that he became tenant at Croftgloy in Deskford; and the Ordens John Wright simply disappears without trace after 1841. So two candidates for your John Wright, assuming he was local and of much the same age as Isabel Simpson. Bound to be others though.
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Forydce, I trying to locate a 3rd document with his signature but so far without success. Regarding John Wright military records, I have send a request to the National Archives for any information on the following:
Catalogue reference: WO 69/172/194
Instructions: Soldier's Number 1643: John WRIGHT. Born Banff, Banffshire. Enlisted 1853 aged 21 years.
They have advised that they will response by January 15th with the page results. Hopefully this will give us more insight into this "John Wright".
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Fordyce, I finally received the record of John Wright's military record from the National Archives (see below). This "John Wright" seems to be the logical father of my gg-grandfather, John Wright b 1850 Marnoch, whose father was noted as being in the "12th Batt. Royal Artillery" in his baptism record.
The military record notes this "John Wright" to have been born in Banff parish and age 21 years 0 months upon enlistment in Sept 1853 making his birth Sept 1832. I then find a birth record of John Wright born 22 Sep 1832 Culbuchly Banff parish (attached). Looking at a map, it appears that Culbuchly is not too far from Marnoch also making it likely this is the correct father of my gg-grandfather. I find this John Wright in the 1841 census still at Culbuchly and then thereafter he disappears.
Any comments are appreciated.
Tom Wright
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Adding to my previous post. Since John Wright's enlistment papers show that he enlisted at Edinburgh in 1853, is it likely that he was living there at the time or was that the only enlistment location?
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Tom, I believe you've cracked it. The Enlistment details identify the enlisting soldier as John Wright born 22 Sep 1832 at Culbeuchly - cannot see much doubt about that. That Louisa Wright née Andrew was (still) there in 1841 right until she died in 1868 means there's no real doubt that the enlisting soldier is Louisa's son.
And, given the 1851 baptism record of John Wright citing his regiment, there's also no doubt the enlisting soldier is the father of your John Wright.
Regarding where he lived when he enlisted, and noting he seemingly wasn't around in the 1851 census, he could well have disappeared into the metropolis. I must admit I would have thought he would have enlisted more locally if he was around locally. It's possible he had already had a stint in the military somewhere before ending up in Edinburgh.
I think we mentioned before he was much younger than Isobel Simpson, although can't see why that would have any bearing on things.
But, to pique your interest, I've found out what happened to his brother William Wright!
He married Margaret Farlie - M-1864-732(Coldingham)-12 (this confirms his parentage).
He died 1900 age 70 - D-1900-732(Coldingham)-1 (look at the muddle of his parentage as recorded!).
Scotland's People references. Coldingham is in Berwickshire.
You'll find him and his family there in 1871, 1881, 1891.
Note in 1900 he's recorded as --- Army Pensioner.
Being an out-pensioner, he might have been paid his pension by the taxman, and those taxman records are available at Kew. Since he's doesn't seem to be around in 1861, he might have joined the army at much the same time as his brother.
I'll leave you to figure that out! If you can't see the censuses, give me a shout and I'll extract the information.
I checked up to see if I could see any connection with my Wright lines and my Andrew lines. I couldn't see any, although my main Andrew line splits leads going back with Walter Andrew the husband's line going back to Cullen and Janet Andrew his wife's line going back to places in Fordyce neighbouring Banff landward where Culbeuchly is (they married in 1730 in Cullen).
As for Wright, no connection that I can see.
But seems you've cracked the John Wright brick, and now you've another little mystery with William Wright. Good luck!
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Fordyce, Thank you for your reply. I have added the brother William Wright to my family tree. I see what you mean about his muddled death record in 1900. His father is listed as Robert instead of Alexander, and his mother's maiden name is listed as Mintie (his grandmother's maiden name) instead of Andrew. Since everything else about William Wright seems to indicate he is the correct person, I guess we can attribute the muddled death record to misinformation from the informant (William's son).
Maybe this is a family trait since I have found incorrect information in my research of the family in the USA. Someone in my family labelled a picture of Ulysses S. Grant in his army uniform in the 1860's as my great-grandfather (he was the 18th USA President). No one caught this until several years after we publish a history book of the family in the USA. :)