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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: christopherworth on Monday 27 April 15 20:29 BST (UK)
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trying to find info on clara bagnall born lichfield 1858 Genes Reunited say she is on the 1861 and 1871 census in lichfield i subscibe to findmypast and ancestry but she is not listed on their sites i believe her father is george bagnall but would like to know what the census says any help please
regards
chris
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Image on GR for 1861 & 1871 has parents as Edward and Ann.
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Is this her on freecen? 1871
Father George Bagnall, Mother Lydia Bagnall
Piece: RG9/1930 Place: Burslem -Staffordshire Enumeration District: 24
Civil Parish: Burslem Ecclesiastical Parish: Christchurch
Folio: 104 Page: 9 Schedule: 49
Address: 33 Granville Place
George 46, Earthenware Fireman, born Staffordshire - Hanley
Lydia 41, born Lancashire - Preston
William 19, Earthenware Manufactring Clerk, born Staffordshire - Hanley
Mary Jane 16, Earthenware Paintress, born Staffordshire - Hanley
Edward J 14, Earthenware Gilder, born Staffordshire - Hanley
Charlotte 11, Scholar, born Staffordshire - Hanley
Clara 4, Scholar, born Staffordshire - Burslem
What do you know about you family, is there any tradition of Pottery work?
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1861
Class: RG 9/1978/56 P 15
living in Queen St Rugeley ,
Edward Bagnall 33 Iron Moulder
Ann Bagnall 31
Mary Ann Bagnall 7
Edward Bagnall 6
Frank Bagnall 3
Clara Bagnall 2 born Rugeley Staffordshire
Lucy Bagnall 6/12
All the family born Rugeley which is in Lichfield RD
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in 1871 The family are in the same place as in 1861, Edward is also a Publican now , and the following children have been born to the family. Lucy aged 6months in 1861 isn't with the family ,
Albert Bagnall 8
Ralph Bagnall 6
Jane Bagnall 4
George Bagnall 3
This is possibly Lucy
Deaths Sep 1861
Bagnall Lucy Lichfield 6b 190
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thanks everyone for looking but no she is not from rugeley we have her wedding cert which gives her father as george and she was possibly baptised in burton upon trent in 1861 giving her mother as sarah just cannot work out why she cannot be found on either the 61 or 71 census where was she its a mystery we cannot solve at the moment
thanks
chris
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What is George's occupation on the wedding certificate, and is he noted as deceased?
Also, any useful witnesses?
As you have identified her birth as Lichfield in 1858, then the certificate will give information as to her parents.
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If this is the baptism record that you refer to, then is she illegitimate and has invented a father for the marriage certificate?
England Select Births and Christenings from 1538 to 1975
Clara Bagnall, baptised 27th February, 1861 at the Holy Trinity, Burton upon Trent
Mother Sarah Bagnall
FHL 426513
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What place of birth is given for Clara in the census after her marriage?
If she is the one baptised in 1861 as above, maybe her mother married George BIRD in 1863?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N61P-R6Y
If so, maybe she was enumerated at Clara BIRD in 1871 in Burton?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDD2-Q81
Maybe Clara 'borrowed' her stepfather George BIRD's forename when she married, to disguise her illegitimacy? In the above 1871 George BIRD's occupation was Maltster.
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This might be Sarah Bagnall in 1851 (1841 father of this family is Samuel)
1851
Burton Upon Trent
Ann Bagnall 52 widow washerwoman Marchonton Staffs
xxxxSarah Bagnall 17
John Bagnall 15
Mary Birch 36 Aunt
Martha Smith 15 dau
Class HO107 Piece 2012 Folio 156 Page 5
Need Clara and Sarah together in 1861?
But think Sarah has married and is Cotton.
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If she is the Clara born in Lichfield district in December quarter 1858, then as Rugeley is in the Lichfield district, this looks like her christening (from English christenings)
Clara
Baptism Date 5 December 1858 at Rugeley Stafford
Father Edward Bagnall Mother Ann
FHL Film Number: 1040785 Reference ID: 2:RH9WSL
So have you identified the wrong Clara?
I thought genes took their census information from FindMyPast, so should show on there if you believe she is from Lichfield in 1861 and 1871
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The Burton on Trent baptism is available on FindMyPast -
Holy Trinity, Burton - 27 February 1861 - Clara - Sarah Bagnall - Burton - Servant
Additional information in the register for Clara in Rugeley is that Edward is an Iron Moulder, abode is Rugeley.
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Just to clarify, perhaps ...
The enquirer was wanting to check a census record for Clara Bagnall on GR. This Clara was found to be in Rugeley, with parents Edward (iron moulder) and Ann. The response was
no she is not from rugeley we have her wedding cert which gives her father as george
So I think that rules out the daughter of Edward the iron moulder.
We are also told ...
and she was possibly baptised in burton upon trent in 1861 giving her mother as sarah just cannot work out why she cannot be found on either the 61 or 71 census
This Clara was apparently illegitimate. If her mother Sarah had married or ‘regrouped’ after 1861, Clara could be under her stepfather’s surname in 1871. That might explain why she has not been found in 1871 as Clara Bagnall.
One possible marriage for her mother Sarah Bagnall (to George Bird) and a matching 1871 census showing a daughter Clara has been found (reply #8 above). There may be other possible marriages and matching 1871 censuses. But until we are told
(a) Clara's place of birth in later censuses after her marriage, and
(b) the occupation of her ‘father’ on the marriage certificate
... I think it will all be speculation. No doubt the enquirer will be back in due course. :)
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St Modwen - Burton on Trent - 9 September 1878
William Crump - 22 - bachelor, Whiting Clerk of Station Street. Father: William (dec) Clerk
Clara Bagnall - 20 - spinster, Domestic Servant of Station Street. Father: George (dec) Maltster
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Father: George (dec) Maltster
Good find, BumbleB. Matches the 1871 found for George Bird ;)
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St Modwen - 24 March 1863
George Bird - 28, bachelor, Maltster of Burton. Father: Charles, Labourer
Sarah Bagnall - 28, spinster of Burton. Father: Samuel, Shoemaker
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Possible 1841 - HO107/975/6 folio 16, page 25
? Yard, Burton on Trent - address either side is New Street.
Samuel Bagnall - 55 - Shoemaker
Ann - 40
William - 10
Sarah - 8
John - 6
The page is very faint, so not sure whether born in county or not
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1851 - HO107 2012 folio 156, page 5 - ?? Place, Burton (horrible hand-writing) :o
Ann Bagnall - 52 - widow - washing woman born Marchington (I think)
Sarah - 17 - washing woman - born Burton
John - 13 - errand boy - born Burton
plus an aunt with daughter
Samuel Bagnall buried 8 January 1851, aged 68 - St Modwen
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many many thanks everyone there is a person in canada who will now have to change all there tree around they had the right family just the wrong people i had seen the marrage to george bird and wondered if this was the one and that she may have been born out of wedlock we had alot of people this morning studying the occupaation and came up with malter which i thought cannot be as it would have been maltster now it all drops into place will visit the library to see if i can find her on the 1861 census she should be because the baptism is before the census + there is no clara bagnall registered as born in burton upon trent 1855 to 1862 so not sure where she was born or what name she was registered as she still poses problems to solve but i think we are getting closer
many thanks to everyone
regards
chris
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Hi Chris: prior to 1874 it was not compulsory to register a birth in England and Wales. :'(
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It was compulsory actually, but the responsibility was the registrar's, not the parent's, so some births were missed. ;)
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having had a second look as i said there is no record of a birth in the name clara bagnall around that date but there is a birth caroline cotton 1860 the baptism on 27th feb 1861 has 2 records in the same church caroline cotton george and sarah and clara bagnall sarah on the cencus later that year sarah cotton and caroline are living with ann bagnall who was sarahs mother i cannot find any marrage between a sarah bagnall and a george cotton later there is a wedding between sarah bagnall and a george bird and now they have a child named clara bird there is no record of a clara bird b 1860ish i have to think that caoline cotton clara bagnall and clara bird are all the same person chrikey this hobby drives you mad but it keeps you active
regards
chris
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I wondered whether Caroline Cotton and Clara Bagnall were the same person.
But then I saw the 2 christenings, so how can they be the same??
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I believe there is a possible death for Caroline Cotton in 1862? Right now I am not somewhere where I can easily check, sorry ...
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From Free BMD
Births Sep 1860
COTTON Caroline Burton 6b 310
Deaths Mar 1862
COTTON Caroline Burton 6b 211
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1861 census
RG 9; Piece: 1965; Folio: 28; Page: 9
Ann Bagnall 62 widow, laundress born Markington
Sarah Cotton 26 dau married dress maker born Burton
John Eardley 28 boarder
Henry Sutherns 25 boarder
Caroline Cotton 8/12 boarder born Burton
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Hi Chris: prior to 1874 it was not compulsory to register a birth in England and Wales. :'(
Not doing very well with my knowledge these days, am I? :'(
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we at work discussed this today ourselves we cannot believe the church would allow someone to baptise the same child with 2 names i have no doubt sarah cotton is sarah bagnall ann bagnall born marchington is her mother and the ages are correct there is no record of a marrage between a bagnall and a cotton anywhere the other problem is where is clara bagnall on the 1861 census, she is nowhere to be found even if born out of wedlock she should be with her mother or grandparents or family that said i think she has taken the name clara bird after sarahs marrage to george bird she is older on the 1871 census than the marrage date so her age fits will keep looking
regards
chris
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Although there is no record of a Bagnall/Cotton marriage, a Sarah Bagnall gets married in Burton in June quarter 1859.
There are 5 names showing for 6b 415
Sarah Bagnall
Robert Blockley
Richard Jackson Eley
Elizabeth Mellow
Henry Orchead
so has a bride lost a groom?
Unfortunately cannot pair up with a George Cotton.
Added:
Just found that that marriage was in Swadlincote to Richard Jackson Eley, so scrap that idea.
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The transcription for the Swadlincote marriage says that Sarah is full age, father is Thomas Bagnall, agent.
There is also a Sarah Bagnall getting married in 1859 at Betley - Sarah Bagnall aged 19, father is John, Wheelwright.