RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: LaytonLily on Sunday 19 April 15 09:21 BST (UK)
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I wonder if someone can help me with this query. It relates to Rupert Alfred Kettle (1817 -1892) born in Birmingham, lived in Wolverhampton. I am trying to establish if his mother was Mary Twist who married Thomas Kettle. I have found a number of websites that give lots of information on this prestigious gentleman, and give his parents as Thomas and Mary but not his mother's maiden name.
I found him and lots of brothers and sisters on F*S* but I find it difficult to be able to verify family connections prior to official registration.
He was knighted in 1880 and was a Judge and obviously a high ranking member of society so I was surprised to see he might be related to my not so prestigious Twist family !
If someone could advise me on how to find the maiden name and family of his mother I would be very grateful.
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I would think it is likely as THOMAS/MARY Christen s Son JAMES TWIST Kettle 08 April 1808.
Thomas Kettle/Mary Twist Marry 7 Nov 1796
Children are;
HENRY 1798, dies 1800
MARY ANN 1800
LYDIA LOUISA 1802
THOMAS FRANCIS 1804
WILLIAM ROBINSON 1806
CHARLES EDWIN 1810
LOUIS ALEXANDER 1814
RUPERT ALFRED 1817
Trish :)
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Is Mary Kettle still alive in 1851 born c 1778, Birm, Warwickshire?
Son Thomas down as born c 1809 is with her.
If so this may be her;
Mary TWIST Christened 21 July 1778, St Phillips, Birmingham
Parents FRANCIS/ANN
Siblings;
ANN 1771
SAMUEL 1776
JOSEPH 1781
MARIA 1782
Possible Marriage,
28 Oct 1769, Saint Martin, Birmingham
Francis TWIST/Ann PHILLIPS
Rupert Marries twice as you probably know.
Both Marriages are on FreeREG in Staffordshire.
1840 Marriage has his Father as THOMAS, Occp Merchant
By 1851 Marriage his Father is deceased
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Thank you for your reply Trish. Where did you find the details you quote ? I understand he was one of 17 children ! I have become very suspicious and doubtful about researching this Twist line so need extra reassurance and confirmation of details, although I know it is unlikely to be 100%, I need it to be 99% !
I agree that James Twist Kettle is probably 100% their son but I am not there yet as far as Rupert Alfred is concerned !
This is the line where my g.g.f changed his name from Twist to Aston and it has taken me years to feel happy about identifying the correct Twist family, so feel the need to verify everything I find !
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I sent the last post before seeing your second reply Trish.
You are right about Mary Twist being the daughter of Francis Twist and Ann (Phillips).
I have Ann / Samuel / Mary / Joseph as their children and a James 1773 but not Maria, so I will look into that.
There is lots of information online about Sir Rupert Alfred Kettle, and I have found two websites devoted to him, but nowhere telling me his mother's maiden name !
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Found all info on Familysearch.Org, except the 2 Marriages for Rupert which are on FreeREG..
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The 1851 Census has Mary as a Fundholder, Son Thomas a Gentleman.
Thomas's age is a little out though.
I cant find them in 1841 though which is frustrating!
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Hi,
I can't see them in 1841 either ???
From Midland Directories for the period c1841 it would seem the family were living at 99 SUFFOLK Street (same address in 1851), and had been from c1820 ~ listed as Black Ornament Makers.
Wonder if Mary Kettles occupation in 1851 reads JEWELLER Trish ? In 1815 a Thomas Kettle is at 22 Suffolk Street ~ a manufacturer of all Kings gilt jewellery, for home trade and exportation.
In 1821 the family are at number 99 and Thomas is a FACTOR (a person who acts for another, notably a mercantile or colonial agent.)
claire
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Thank you for the last two replies. On one of the websites that gives details about Rupert (though I don't know who wrote this and what knowledge they had) it says his father worked in stained glass and on Rupert's baptism entry it says his father was a gilt toy maker and they lived in Suffolk Street. I wondered if I looked at baptism entries for their other children it might give the mother's maiden name, I can perhaps get into Birmingham Library to do this sometime.
I am always amazed at the information Roots members seem to have at their fingertips ! I did try to find the entry for Rupert's two marriages on the FreeCen website but I didn't have any success !
If I can just establish his mother was a Twist from my family line, there are all his brothers and sisters to explore !
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Hi
I have checked the baptisms of the children listed by Trish, which can be seen on Anc*, there is no mention of the mothers maiden name unfortunately.
The marriage between Thomas and Mary in 1796 was by Licence ~ there maybe more info to be found on that.
Can the witness to the marriage be anything to do with your family ~ Elizabeth TWIST
claire
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There is an Elizabeth Twist because an Elizabeth Bloore married Mary's brother James Twist and interestingly it appears both couples married in 1796 !
Thing is I know Mary Twist, daughter of Joseph Twist and Lucy Lawrence Price married Thomas Kettle in 1796 but even if I am able to see the church entry (they married at St Martins) it still doesn't tell me that the Thomas and Mary Kettle who are shown as Sir Rupert's parents are 'my' Thomas and Mary Kettle does it ?!
I am thinking they probably are, because F* S* shows he had a brother named James Twist Kettle - but there again, F* S* doesn't say Mary Twist - so there could still be two couples named Thomas and Mary Kettle in Birmingham around the same time, one are ther parents of Rupert, the other of James Twist !
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To help, or confuse even more:
Birmingham Gazette – Monday 7th January 1833
Died - On Saturday, at her daughter’s, Mrs. Kettle, Suffolk-treet, Mrs Ann Twist, formerly of Paradise-street, aged 90.
I checked again and it does say Ann for the name of the mother of Mrs Kettle.
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Sorry I have not been on-line for a few days so need to look over all of this again when I have the time.
You said you looked on FreeCen for ths Marriages I posted.
It is FreeREG, www.freereg.org.uk
Trish :)
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Thank you Dave Jones - as you say, might confuse : might help ! but whatever it is interesting information which I will need to look into. What we look for is information to confirm our apparent findings, or as much as we might regret it, to show us we have it wrong.
Thank you Trish - I will try again with the web URL you have given me
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Looking at this information sent by Dave Jones and trying to make sense of it.
Is your understanding of it is that 'Mrs Kettle' is the daughter and the person who has died is Mrs Ann Twist ?
I was thinking it was the other way round, but Francis TWIST (D: 1808) married Ann Phillips in 1769, so therefore she was Mrs Ann Twist, and her daughter was Mary Twist who married Thomas Kettle in 1796. So that would make sense if it was that way round ! Thomas and Mary Kettle did live in Suffolk Street on a number of the census entries.
So that adds a bit more valuable information - though I still don't know if Rupert Alfred Kettle was their son !
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Well if you thought my last post confused try adding this one:
William Kettle of Suffolk-street married Maria Twist of Paradise-street in c1804
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Well confusing or not - I love it ! It is like a great big puzzle, a mystery to unravel, problem solving - I miss problem solving from when I was working, but family history research replaces it !
Where did you find this information on this other Twist and Kettle connection ? And the death entry posted previously - do you have membership of the online newspaper archives ?
Perhaps I could post on here but as a separate entry, another mystery about my direct Twist ancestor - Emma Aston married Joseph Twist (well I don't think they did actually marry) - and you might find such valuable information there as well !
I don't have any information on the parents or siblings of Thomas Kettle (who married Mary Twist) so maybe this William is related. I will see what I can make of it. Thank you
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Hi
Birmingham Journal 4th July 1829 " On Wednesday last, the 1st inst, much regretted by his family and friends, Mr Thomas Kettle, of Suffolk Street, aged 51".
Notice also in Aris's Birmingham Gazette 6 July 1829.
The burial record is on Ancy. Buried July 9 1829. Birmingham St Mary. This would give a birth year of about 1778 if the correct Thomas.
The baptism record for Louis Alexander Kettle has the same address Suffolk Street and father's occupation gilt toy maker (born 1 Mar 1814) and parents Thomas and Mary.
William
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Thank you Millmoor. The dates appear to be correct - his wife Mary was born 1778. I have sent for her death certificate which looks to be 1852 and it might just give an indication of a son registering the details which might just lead me to Ruper Alfred and his siblings !
I have the details of Louise Alexander's birth - and the other details of children born to Thomas and Mary Kettle - who appears to be the brother of Rupert Alfred and it is most likely the Thomas and Mary are 'my' Thomas and Mary (Twist) Kettle but I am just being very cautious in presuming they are . I am just wanting something to confirm it, to join the dots.
I wonder if anyone can find Mary Kettle and and any children on the 1841 census - though of course 'children' would be adults. I thought I would try and look on FindMyPast because you can search on address presumably and it is most likely to be Suffolk Street.
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Hi
1841 has a Mary Kettle living in Suffolk Street age 55 shown as Ind. Also Lucy Westwood 20 FS
Immediately above are
William Kettle 30 Gilt t business
Louisa 25
Mary 4
William 2
Maria 50 Ind
Elizabeth Grubb 15 FS
I wonder if the Maria is the Maria Twist who married William Kettle?
William
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Slowly, slowly, bit by bit, little details getting add together, where all was apparently blank before !
I find it so difficult to make correct connections prior to official registration and prior to any census entries. To feel confident I have found the 'right' family / family members. How different it was with my mother's side where they all lived in small villages in Worcestersire or Herefordshire. However with my father's side living in centre of Birmingham a different story.
Thank you very much for finding the 1841 entry, which I am happy to accept is 'my' Mary Kettle - I hadn't been able to find it on A....... It is often helpful to look on the same page, or even pages of census either side, where other family members can be found.
It well might be Maria Twist shown here. More to explore.
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Probate for Thomas Francis Kettle 19 Jan 1877 formerly of Birmingham manufacturer but late of Wolverhampton Gentleman died 4 March 1876 at Finchfield nr Wolverhampton was proved at the Principal Registry by Rupert Alfred Kettle of Wolverhampton Esquire the Brother the sole executor.
I can see a baptism for Maria Twist in 1778 but not for Mary.
William
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Hi
There are a lot of records about William Robinson Kettle b 1806 in trade directories and electoral rolls. He would appear to have moved from manufacturing to becoming an accountant. He married Louisa Elizabeth Hunts in 1835 and had 3 children Louisa Maria b 1836, William Thomas b 1838 and Rosa Jane Ann b 1842. William died in 1860 and left a will.
In the 1851 census a W R Kettle an accountant b Birmingham 1806 was away visiting in London. The rest of the family have I believe been transcribed as Keirle. The writing is poor but suggest you have a look. Living at Hagley Road it has been transcribed as
Louisa E Keirle 39 Accountants wife
Louisa M Keirle 14 daughter
Rosa J A Keirle 8 daughter
Maria Keirle 70 aunt
Harriet Riley 20
Jane Riley 17
As I said the writing is poor but the part which really caught my eye was where it said aunt for Maria (I did wonder if it was short for annuitant but it is in the relationship column).
William
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There is a burial for Ann Twist Widow Jan 14 1833 Birmingham St Mary abode Suffolk Street age 89.
Maria Twist baptized Birmingham St Philip 17 May 1782 Parents Francis and Ann.
The parish record for Mary Twist on ancy. bap Birmingham St Philip 21 Jun 1778 parents Francis and Ann-surname has been transcribed as Smist!
William
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In Aris's Birmingham Gazette 7 January 1833 " On Saturday at her daughter's , Mrs Kettle's, Suffolk Street, Mrs Ann Twist , formerly of Paradise Street, aged 90".
Could this be brother Samuel?
9 June 1834 on the 29th ult , after a long illness, Mr Samuel Twist, of Paradise Street, in his 58th year. Other articles say he was the licencee of the White Hart Inn, Paradise Street which was "pursuant of the direction of his will" to be sold by auction. The article 16 June 1834 is well worth a read as it gives a very detailed description of the premises and states that "it has never been offered for sale having been in the same family for the last sixty years".
Now going to have a rest!
William
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What treasures Millmoor ! And I haven't even stopped to read them properly yet !
In fact I didn't know I had them but had come on to the site because I had a notification from someone about a posting thread of mine from 2014 !
I have copied your findings onto my computer and will enjoy reading the new discoveries later today when I have more time.
I have had a very sparse family tree for the Twist family for some time, but I am hopeful I can soon fill that out some more when I have had chance to put it all together and follow up some of the leads.
But then I have only been working on this Twist family for a few weeks.
I was looking on the National Archives website and found quite a few documents listed that look interesting and might provide details on Twist and Kettles of Birmingham. Quite a few of them are held by Birmingham Central Library so i will make a trip there sometime in the next couple of weeks.
Thank you for all your work on my behalf.
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I haven't yet found the maiden name of Rupert's mother but I am a bit closer to establishing that 'my' Thomas and Mary (Twist) Kettle were his parents. Not there yet but thanks, in no small part, by the help of folks on this site. As so often happens with FH research, little scraps of information are found which don't make sense at the time, but eventually come together to make sense and give you the answers. I have made tentative connections so many thanks for the help from each one who contributed.
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I'm not sure whether you will find this useful but I believe I have tracked down Sir Rupert KETTLE's second wife: Mary COOKE (1825-1884) d of William COOKE and Mary (nee SAVAGE).
William COOKE was a surgeon born in Wolverhampton who I believe died there in 1834 aged 32.
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Thank you for this information - I do already have it - but thank you taking the trouble to send it to me. Actually I have put the Kettles aside as I now become 99% sure that the Twist family is not biologically related to my g.grandfather - William Twist (Aston) - and so not to me.
I have continued to find out a considerable amount of interesting details about this Twist family however, because William was brought up as a child by Joseph Twist and his (I believe) mother, Emma Aston (she wasn't married to Joseph but took his name, as did William). It is a very confusing story / puzzle !
I have concentrated on trying to find out who William's parents were, and then hopefully something about them, which has resulted in me continuing researching the Twist family in case there is mention of William somewhere - but nothing yet still !