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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Gurslad on Wednesday 15 April 15 23:00 BST (UK)
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Been into my tree for years but I've come up on a problem. A relation had 3 children die in the 1940s,I would think they all died at birth. But I have one of them has birth details but with no death details. I thought I would get a birth certificate to make sure he was born to the right family. I filled in the form but when I put in the page number it wouldn't except it as the number was more than 6 numbers. The number is 135/6473/s. I now think this may be a still born baby and the Birth & Death are linked. There is know one from the family alive so know one to ask. Anybody come across this.
Jim
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I am assuming this question applies to England and Wales?
It will not be a stillbirth - they have their own register and are not found in the birth/death indexes. It is not unusual to see page numbers that reference other years/quarters (the 's' may represent September qtr), though this is not a format I recognize, therefore it would be useful to see the entire entry (PM sent).
Alexander
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Having looked at the original I don't have any good suggestions to explain it. It is strange there is no corresponding death entry, if you are certain he died. Perhaps you are right and it was a stillbirth that was incorrectly issued a birth certificate - mistakes happen.
I think the only way to know would be to order the certificate. When ordering I would enter the page number as 135, since the other numbers were handwritten into the index later, and the entry will still be on that page of the register. If you call the GRO they might be able to provide an explanation for the numbers or advise how to order the certificate.
Alexander
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I've emailed GRO for info on John & his sister Sandra born & died 1949 but the age is shown as 23!. If she was 23 then the mother was 12 years old!.
Jim
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I'm currently transcribing for FreeBMD and I think that page 135 should have been crossed out, leaving 6473/S. OK - I'm doing 1969 marriages at the moment, so not ever so sure about births, but the norm (in my experience) seems to be that the original page number is superseded by the corrected "page".
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I can't do any checking on this because I don't have any names or dates for the original entry, but having seen the clip of the index, I wonder if it's trying to cross reference to 5a 64 in Sept qtr 1973. Just a thought...
Arthur
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Hi Jim
The original entry in the index was 5a 135
At some point after the initial registration, there was an amendment to the original entry and the entry should read 5a 6473/s
However, whenever you want a cert from the GRO and the index is incorrect in some way, you must always enter what is writtern on the image, not in the trancsription or what you think the entry should be. It will be down to the GRO to supply the cert against their index whether it is right or wrong.
If their system won't accept what is written in the index, then order the cert without using the GRO reference, their system defaults to 'No' 'the GRO ref is not known' and you can order the cert without the number by quoting his parents names.
If you want to purchase a copy of that birth cert for John and entry 135 has been superseded by 6473/s, the GRO will send you what is on 6473/s as entry 135 is in effect voided by the later entry unless there is now a block on supplying the cert.
As to the death of Sandra, I don't know how true this might be but her age at death could have been 23days or 23hours and when the GRO index was compiled the 'days' or 'hours' was omitted leaving her age as 23.
The GRO are very helpful and according to your profile you are UK based so give them a call on 0300 123 1837 and discuss the superseded birth entry with them and they will take your order over the phone with payment by debit/credit card.
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The entry was from 1943 so it is unlikely to be referencing September 1973, though the thought did cross my mind.
Also, page numbers in the 6000s are far above the expected range for that district, or any district for that matter, therefore I don't think it is a simple case of cross referencing to another page.
Alexander
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I'll wait until I get a reply from GRO. Been researching my tree since the 1980s and have book full of certificates but never come across one like this. I searched with every combination of surname and first name without success.They were living in Marlborough but the father originated from Yorkshire so tried Yorkshire without success.
As to Sandra born & died 1949 aged 23. I found the death record on Ancestry and that states she was born in 1921, but there is no record of this Sandra or anything similar in 1921.Usually when children die under 1 year they put age as '0'.
I found out about these children from their sister when we visited the cemetery as children(under 9) and she showed me these graves and said 'Mum had twins and they died', not twins but there were 3 graves. My older sister remembers the white coffins.Sadly she died so can't ask her.
My cousin and I were born when'children should be seen and not heard' so no info was shared. My cousins mother Aunt Sally died in the 1980s and I went to the funeral, when I was looking at the flowers I though I was looking at the wrong ones because some had Sarah on them. That's when I found out Sally is also a name for Sarah. So the secrets were still going in the 80s. Can't ask my favourite cousin as she died in her early 30s.
But I'll keep going, still love doing it.
Jim
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Hi Jim
You could also contact the cemetery as you seem to know which one and ask them to check their records. They might be willing to give you more information.
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Good idea, dawnsh,
Never thought of it, getting older and my memory is not so good!. I contacted them years ago as to where exactly my grandparents were buried and they sent me details, they have no headstone so sent me the plot number and place. I know the cemetery well as my mother, sister and many relatives are buried there. The one famous person buried there is Sir Gordon Richards, famous jockey.I'll get on and find the email from the town hall and get writing. Thanks for jogging my memory.
Jim
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With help from Marlborough Council I can confirm that Peter T Farley 1946-1946 & Sandra I Farley 1949-1949 are buried in the same grave in Marlborough Cemetery. Peter was buried on the 17 September 1946 & Sandra was buried 25 January 1949.
The problem is there is no trace of John T Farley in Marlborough Burial records. Been advised to contact Swindon & Wiltshire Archive, which I've done. Now waiting in anticipation!.
Jim
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Could that 73 actually be a capital B?
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While doing my own research I've just come across a useful page at FreeBMD about late registrations - see http://www.freebmd.org.uk/late-entry-help.html
It explains some of the handwritten notes you find in the indexes, though it didn't actually help me to get anywhere with the one that started this query. I still feel the last bit is 73/S (= Sept qtr 1973) but the indexes don't seem to help with 64 for the first two characters. Maybe someone else will do better.
Arthur
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Hi Arthur
Please let me re-assure you that 73/s has nothing to do with a late September 1973 registration. Late registration are accompanied by a quarter letter and the last 2 digits of the year.
The number refers to an amendment to the original entry.
It also does not refer to an adopted child's entry. There is no way of linking an entry in the birth index with that of a child in the adopted childrens index unless you know the names before and after adoption.
You can search births deaths or marriages at freebmd with a /s entry by selecting the type, a year range and putting */s in the page number.
I searched births Jan-Dec 1930 and got a list of results, very few of which were late registrations accompanied by the quarter and year of the later registration. Some but not all of the later re-registrations occur when previously unmarried parents of a child later marry and want to 'legitimise' the births of their children.
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The attached, from Births in 1943 shows the three versions of entry:
The typed one is an entry for that particular quarter - in this case March 1943 (and for information, the 8e, 8a and 6c are volume numbers associated with the appropriate Registration District).
See S'44 refers to a late registration - September quarter 1944
4021/S refers to an alteration to the entry at some stage.
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Thanks for the clarification.
Arthur
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Been a while but I've managed to contact Wiltshire Records Office. I was shocked by their reply. The 6473/s on the end of 5a 135 indicates that the child was put up for adoption. No other info for me from them. I'm now going to contact his sisters.
Jim
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Hi Jim
Please be reassured again that the 6473/s on the end does not mean there was an adoption and the people at Wiltshire should not have told you that.
Please see my earlier reply #14
The supplementary entry means just that, something was added or amended at a later date.
If every supplementary entry in the birth index meant the child had been adopted, there would be a lot of people running around looking for their adoption records.
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Hi dawnsh,
Thank you for your reply, I looked at #15 and see what you mean. I've since spoken to my sister she was 9 at that time and she thinks there was something like that going on. She remembers the two other children's funerals and says they were in white coffins. My aunt had a child born 1941, then this one in 1943 then another in 1944. My grandmother had twin girls in 1906 (Aunts sisters) and one was adopted by my grandfathers brother, it says on her marriage certificate the brothers name and that he was her adopted father. So god knows what was going on in our family as I'm a bit iffy!. There are two girls(my cousins) from that family still going but they are not 100% well so I do not want to badger them. I'm waiting for my aunts granddaughter to reply to me, I'll see if she can get any info.
Jim
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Did you ever order the certificate, Jim?
Josey
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Have not
orderd the certificate yet as I'm waiting for his sisters to contact me, I don't want to upset them as they are not 100% fit.Just checking with another family member at the moment.
Jim
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Just ordering a certificate, so I wait with bated breath.
Dawnsh, I should have said that the lady at Wiltshire Records did not tell me about the adoption straight away, she said she would do a thorough search and call me back later. She called back a few hours later with the adoption info.So still not sure at the moment as there is only one person around who was a child at that time and she 'thinks' there was something going on.
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My grandmother had a child who was adopted - on her certificate it has adopted written on it.
I've just looked her up on the index - there is no additional reference or S on her index
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A relative of ours had two children with her first husband, then got divorced. When she remarried, she and her second husband adopted the two children. On the GRO index, their original birth records have a hand written addition in the form one letter and four numbers. The letter is the same for the two children and the numbers are close but not consecutive. There is a slash after the original page number, but there are no hyphens, slashes or apostrophes or anything else dividing the added letter and numbers. This was in the 1980s.
eg (vol) (page) / A1234
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Morning,
Just got the birth certificate, I won't put the other names on here just details about John. His name was John Thomas Farley born March 1943, my Aunt & Uncle were down as his parents (he was born in the same house as I, was more than likely the same room!). But as too the other numbers I mentioned it mentions on the edge of the the certificate that the details in columns 4 & 6 were omitted by the mother and my mother (her sister). The omitted details were the fathers name and his occupation. His occupation stated he was in the Army so it was in the middle of WW2 so would more than likely not been at home.It also has the the word 'Adopted' in the updated text. So the plot thickens and I more than likely will never find John.
I've not mentioned these details to John's sisters but his niece has been told as I'm in contact with her a lot.
Jim
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But as too the other numbers I mentioned it mentions on the edge of the the certificate that the details in columns 4 & 6 were omitted by the mother and my mother (her sister). The omitted details were the fathers name and his occupation. His occupation stated he was in the Army so it was in the middle of WW2 so would more than likely not been at home.
Do you mean that the father's name was originally omitted and the relevant column was later amended to add your uncle's name as the father?
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No it says omit the details in columns 4 & 6, so I take it that his name was entered without his permission or knowledge. John was born on the 19 March 1943 and this was corrected details was entered on the 11 December 1943. The details were given to the registrar by John's mother & my mother (his mothers older sister). 'Adopted' was entered by the Superintendent Registrar. The two registrars had different names. I might pluck up courage and ask my older sister about it, she was about 9 years old when this happened, plus she's the only one still around in our family from that time.
Jim
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Hi Jim
So the supplementary reference refers to the 'father'.
There was an assumption that the husbands of married women were the fathers of children but in this case I would suggest he wasn't, the child was born and registered and the father, realising he wasn't the father, had his name removed from the birth entry.
The adoption is another scenario altogether.
As his certificate has been annotated, the adoption was official.
Without knowing his name after adoption, it is impossible at this stage to progress further.
The steps to take now would be to use and search the death index on Ancestry, if you have a subscription or use your local library if you don't, and do a death search with his exact date of birth. There are 214 results but you can eliminate all the women. Cross reference the deaths with births and see if you get any left overs which could be the person you seek, if they have already passed away.
Alternatively, register with the GRO's adoption contact register in the chance that he may be looking for family memebers and has acsessed his birth file so he knows who he was at birth.
https://www.gov.uk/adoption-records/the-adoption-contact-register
or here
http://www.adoptionsearchreunion.org.uk/default.htm
or here
http://www.missing-you.net/categories/adoptions.php
Contact Wiltshire Social Services and ask if they have an Adoption intermediary service who can try to put you in touch. The person at Wiltshire Records won't be able to help further but could see that the original birth entry had been amended to remove the name and later annotated to show the adoption.
If the circumstances of his birth caused a rift in the family it is most likely he was adopted out of the family, not by a relative.
If by some chance there is a whiff of his new name in the family, I can check the adopted childrens index to see if there is a corresponding entry. From that, you can order the adoption certificate, find out who his adoped parents were and then use the normal tracing techniques for finding him.
Hope this helps.
Dawn
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The search goes on. As I posted I have his name etc from the certificate and that he was adopted. Yesterday a new piece of info was given to me. The last few days I have been in contact with his half sister (my cousin)over other family info, she shocked me by saying she knew about John. Her mother (my Aunt) had a stroke and while she recovered she received a letter from John the son she gave up for adoption. She started crying and begged my cousin not to tell anyone.As she could not see properly she got her daughter to read it. My aunt died in 1988 and my cousin only told her husband until she told me yesterday. But the problem is she says she can't remember anything about the letter, but she thinks he lived in the Midlands. I don't know if she has the letter and does not want to share the contents I don't know, I don't know if he ever contacted her again,but I won't pester her about it.
Jim
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Hi Jim
thanks for posting the update.
I would seem then that the son given up for adoption knew of his birth mother and may have been keeping discrete tabs on her.
If your cousin ever thinks about making contact with him, at least you have a date in 1988 when he was known to be alive. And if his new name comes up in conversation there are ways of tracking him down.