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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: jackie hubbard on Monday 13 April 15 17:12 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information/confirmation of records I have found for Isaac Gibson. Gibson's daughter, Mary Ann, married my great grandfather, Thomas Barnes, in 1877. His occupation, as listed on the marriage certificate, is sea captain. Merchant Navy Seamen Records in The National Archives (1846) list an Isaac Gibson as a seaman, born 1825, Chester; first went to sea as boy in 1835. There is also a record of a marriage between an Isaac Gibson and Mary Ann Dale (I have no image of this, and am unable to verify the groom's occupation), in 1846.
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If this is the Gibson / Dale marriage, you can ascertain his occupation by purchasing the Cert online for £9.25
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Its a Cheshire/Flintshire District - there may be some on here who can access records ?
Marriages Sep 1846
Beck Richard Gt Boughton 19 52
Corley Sarah Gt. Boughton 19 52
Dale Mary Ann Gt Boughton 19 52
Davies Sarah Gt Boughton 19 52
Dealy Jane Gt. Boughton 19 52
Gibson Isaac Gt Boughton 19 52
Maddock Thomas Gt Boughton 19 52
Russell Henry Great Boughton 19 52
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The Isaac Gibson who married Mary Ann Dale must have died between 1851 -61 census -as Mary Ann is remarried by 1861 - still living with her mother
Suz
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Thanks. I will have to keep looking for the marriage, since the Isaac Gibson I am looking for was at his daughter's wedding in 1877!
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fOUND DETAILS!
Marriage
Holy Trinity Chester
Isaac Gibson full age Bachelor occ Waterman Crane St father William Gibson occ Papermaker
Mary Ann Dale 19 spinster Crane St father William Dale occ Farmer
witnesses Henry Dale (signed) Sarah Gibson (made her mark)
Merchant Navy Seamen
Oct 1845
ticket no 911491141
Isaac Gibson b Chester 1826
Height 5ft 6 ins
First went to sea as Fisherman
not been in Royal Navy or Foreign Service
Suz
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When and where was Mary Ann born and who were witnesses at the marriage??
How do you know Isaac Gibson was at his daughter's marriage?
Suz
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Good point. I have a copy of the marriage certificate, April 30, 1877 between Thomas Barnes, age 32 and Mary Ann Gibson, age 22. Both were born in Chester. The address for both is 8 Harrops Court, Bridge Street Row, Chester. The bride's father is listed as Isaac Gibson, sea captain. Since I have several certificates that list the father's occupation as 'deceased,' my thought was that, since Gibson's occupation was listed, he was alive/present at the wedding. The witnesses are David Johnston and Aura (?) Johnston (her mark).
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Birth info. for Isaac Gibson: Baptised 06 Nov. 1825, St. Mary's, Chester. Mother Elizabeth, father William (Paper Maker). This jibes with marriage info. from Suz. There is also the 1851 Census, with Mary Ann Gibson (married, age 22) living with her mother Elizabeth, in Great Boughton. Two children, John Gibson, b. 1848, Chester and Mary Ann, b. 1850. (The age of Mary Ann Gibson on the marriage certificate is 22, which would mean a birth date of 1854-55?)
Two files from the records: Isaac Gibson b. 1826 (again, thanks to Suz) and Isaac Gibson b. 1825, Chester. This Isaac went to sea in 1835. He is described as 5'5", with black hair. The ref. no is BT 113/32. He can write. No ticket no. that I can see. Any comments or suggestions re: the incongruities would be appreciated.
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Linking to another researcher's website for this Gibson family http://the-gibsons.org.uk/genealogy/family.php?famid=F835&ged=Gibson
And other threads https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/50981-Isaac-Gibson/page7
https://www.british-genealogy.com/archive/index.php/t-50981.html
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Thanks, Shaun. I didn't realize there was so much information -- and controversy -- attached to the Gibson name.
To update my previous post:
The register for 28 December, 1846 contains the following information:
Isaac Gibson, b. Chester 1825. Black hair, black eyes.
William Gibson, b. Chester 1830. Black hair, dark eyes.
There are parish records for:
Isaac Gibson, baptised 06 Nov. 1825 St. Mary's Chester parents Elizabeth and William (Paper Maker)
William Gibson, " 22 Dec. 1830. " " " " " "
The marriage between Isaac Gibson and Mary Ann Dale lists the groom's father as Paper Maker.
In the 1851 Census, Mary Ann Gibson (living with the Dales on Samuel St.) has two children: John, b. 1848 and Mary Ann, b. 1850. Mary Ann Gibson was baptized, 25 Dec. 1850. Her parents are Isaac and Mary Ann, Samuel St. The father's trade: Sea Captain.
The marriage between Thomas Barnes and Mary Ann Gibson in 1877, lists the bride's age as 22. There is some argument that the bride was really Mary Prince, who lied about her age (17). Is it possible that Mary Ann Gibson lied about her age, that she was closer to 26 than 22?
Has anyone found a record of Mary Ann (Dale) Gibson's death?
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Thanks, Shaun. I didn't realize there was so much information -- and controversy -- attached to the Gibson name.
To update my previous post:
T " " " " " "
In the 1851 Census, Mary Ann Gibson (living with the Dales on Samuel St.) has two children: John, b. 1848 and Mary Ann, b. 1850. Mary Ann Gibson was baptized, 25 Dec. 1850. Her parents are Isaac and Mary Ann, Samuel St. The father's trade: Sea Captain
Mary Ann Gibson baptized 1850 - I think she died in 1852 - found a burial record - will have to look up details again - but she was a young child and her address was Samuel St
so it would be quite feasible for Mary Ann Dale/Gibson/Prince to have a child b later and call her Mary Ann - think most of the later children had Prince as their middle name .
Will look up and be back later
Suz
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:) I did find the 1852 record for Mary Ann Gibson, Samuel St., likely the same Mary Ann who was born in 1850. Which leaves me with the mysterious, 22-year-old Mary Ann Gibson on the 1877 marriage record. I believe Isaac had disappeared from the scene by 1861 -- I found a record of an 1857 burial in Stockport that I have yet to verify and an 1855 record of an Isaac Gibson buried at sea -- and have eliminated the record for an 1856 registration (Great Boughon) 8A/318 for Mary Ann Gibson (not validated by the GRO).
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-- and have eliminated the record for an 1856 registration (Great Boughon) 8A/318 for Mary Ann Gibson (not validated by the GRO).
I don't know what you mean by "not validated by the GRO" ??
The registration is on FreeBMD and other sites
The image is handwritten - the 8 is a little faint
Have you tried to order this certificate from the GRO using the reference you posted??
If so that is where the error lies
the registration is Mary Ann Gibson Sept qtr1856 Gt Boughton (not Boughon) 8a(not a capital a) 318
Suz
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I ordered the certificate, but the GRO said the information did not match -- it was the wrong Mary Ann Gibson.
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I ordered the certificate, but the GRO said the information did not match -- it was the wrong Mary Ann Gibson.
However, I will recheck the registration with the info. you gave me. Thanks.
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check the reg on FreeBMD- I also looked at the image so it should be available
Suz
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I have sent for a birth record and should get it in about 3 weeks. I will post the results.
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I just received the record. I requested the birth entry for 1855 (I had the GRO do a search: Mary Ann Gibson, b. 1855 Chester, parents Mary Ann Dale and Isaac Gibson, sea captain). What I received: Mary Ann Gibson, b. 1850, Chester, parents Mary Ann Dale and Isaac Gibson, Flatman. In theory, the birth years covered should have been 1854, 1855 and 1856. I can only assume that there is no birth record for Mary Ann Gibson for that date. I have also sent for the birth record using the reference numbers -- all without result. I am beginning to doubt the existence of the second Mary Ann. As for Isaac Gibson being a sea captain ---
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The names Prince and Gibson seem somewhat interchangeable in this family so I am wondering if this is your Mary Ann in 1861 at the Eastham Packet in Great Boughton:
Hannah Leftwick Wife Mar 49 Publican & Flat Man's wife, Stanney, Cheshire
Emily Leftwick daur 9 1852 Scholar, Chester
Mary A Prince Grand Daughter 10 Scholar, Chester
EDIT - probably not - there is a William Prince/Elizabeth Leftwick marriage in Chester in 1854
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Thanks, Shaun. It really is confusing. There is a Mary Ann Gibson, born to Mary Ann Dale and Isaac Gibson in 1850. But, I believe she died in 1852. The Mary Ann Gibson I am looking for is listed in a marriage entry for 1877: Mary Ann Gibson to Thomas Barnes. The bride's father is a Sea Captain. Her age at the time -- and in Census Records for 1881 and beyond -- is consistent with her being born c. 1855. In theory, she is my great grandmother. (Her son, John Barnes, was my grandfather.) Perhaps she lied about her age. If so, it was a lie that started with her wedding day and ended with her death. ???
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It is interesting that, of the "Prince" children, Charles and Elizabeth also named their father as Isaac Gibson, sea captain, on their marriages. (Mary's brother John named his father as Isaac Gibson deceased, master mariner).
The 1871 census shows all the children as Gibson, and the only Mary is the one listed as aged 12. So I too am coming round to the conclusion that the Mary who married Thomas Barnes was the one baptised as Mary Prince in 1860, and that she misrepresented her age on marriage.
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Hi Shaun. I believe Isaac Gibson died between 1851 and 1861 (I need to verify that Mary Ann Dale was listed on the 1861 Census as remarried and living with her mother.) I will also check the date of John's marriage. (He appears to be the only legitimate claim to Isaac as a father.) I have yet to explore the Prince marriage/relationship. It's interesting that, although Mary Ann Gibson claimed Isaac as her father, she failed to add 'deceased.' Which is why I initially thought -- wrongly, as it was pointed out -- that Isaac was alive at the time of the 1877 wedding. Good reason to misrepresent her age: the bride was 17 and the groom was 32. (He did outlive her by the way.)
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Interesting: There is a marriage between Mary Ann Dale and Charles Prince, 1854 Stockport, Cheshire (FreeBMD - 8a page 12). Not sure why she reverted to her maiden name. According to the 1877 marriage entry, Mary Ann Gibson was born in 1855, or thereabouts, so draw your own conclusions. (No proof of the birth so far.) HOWEVER, there is also a record on Family Search for the Stockport Sunday School: 24 June 1855, Mary Ann Gibson, father Isaac Gibson. This would fit with the 1850 birth of Mary Ann Gibson. Except she supposedly died in 1852. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
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The Gibson children in the Stockport Sunday School records (Job/John/Josh, Joseph, Sarah, Ellen, Mary Ann) are I think the children of Isaac and Ellen Gibson of Stockport. Ellen was formerly Ellen Hudson. Per the 1851 census these were:
James Gibson 1833
Job Gibson 1836
Sarah Gibson 1837
Mary Ann Gibson 1841
Ellen Gibson 1843
This Isaac doesn't appear in the censuses either but the father's name is corroborated by James's Massachusetts 1900 marriage record, Job's 1836 baptism at St Mary Stockport, and James's 1838 national school record, all on FamilySearch.
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This Isaac doesn't appear in the censuses either
Correction: the "Stockport" Isaac is on the 1841 census with his family in Warrington. Aged 35, a dresser (or a draper?).
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Thank you for clearing that up. I am now left with Mary Ann Gibson actually being Mary Ann Prince. I always wondered about her signature on the marriage entry. The Gibson part of the signature appears as an afterthought -- separate from the rest. I still don't understand why she continued the fiction for 40 years.
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Mary Prince was baptised Mary, not Mary Ann. I think it probably was her that married Thomas Barnes and I am wondering if she used her deceased sister's birth documents to avoid the complications of being a minor on marriage, so becoming Mary Ann. Just a theory !
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Good theory. ;) Mary Prince was born 1860. Mary Ann Gibson was born 1850. Died 1852. Isaac Gibson died before 1854. If Mary Ann Gibson hadn't died, the Mary Ann Gibson on the marriage certificate would have been lying about her age the other way (which is a more appealing -- although impossible -- theory). I'd like to believe that 27-year-old Mary Ann Gibson lied to her 32-year-old husband, who wanted to believe she was a 22-year-old blushing bride. However, your theory holds water. The other, has more holes than a sieve.
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The mystery of the Gibson's and Dales deepens: There is a baptism record dated 25 December, 1850: Mary Ann Gibson. Parents: Mary Ann Gibson and Isaac Gibson (Sea Captain), Parish of St. John. Abode: Samuel Street. The baptism record from the GRO is for Mary Ann Gibson, baptized 02 May, 1850. Parents: Mary Ann Gibson (formerly Dale) and Isaac Gibson (Flatman). The registrant is Mary Ann Gibson, Samuel Street. The child's date of birth is 31st March, 1850. I know this has been beaten to death, but any thoughts on the discrepancies would be appreciated.
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The baptism record from the GRO
I think you mean the birth certificate recording the registration of the birth. It's not the same thing as a baptism, which often took place much later.
A "flatman" or "flat man" was a boatman on a flat bottom boat used in shallow waters (mainly rivers and canals) for transport. Apparently the term also came to refer to mariners on shallow-draft coastal sailing vessels.
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Thanks, Shaun. That was my thought for the 31 March 1850 birth, with a baptism on 02 May, 1 850. My confusion is with the baptism on 25 December, 1850.
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I'm not seeing any discrepancy with the dates.
- Born 31 March
- Birth registration 2 May
- Baptised 25 December
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Stupid mistake. Perhaps that's why I'm on the Beginner's Board! The usual Gibson muddiness still prevails: The December baptism lists him as a Sea Captain, while the registration lists him as a Flatman. His marriage entry to Mary Ann Dale lists him as Waterman and his (probably not) daughter lists him as a Sea Captain when she marries Thomas Barnes in 1877. I do have an entry for him in the Merchant Seamen Records, but I'm beginning to wonder if he ever sailed beyond the shores of Chester.
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This is a post that really requires no comment. However, the changing birth dates of both Thomas Barnes and Mary Ann Gibson/Prince are interesting. The April 30, 1877 marriage certificate shows Thomas as 32 and Mary Ann as 22 (birth years c. 1845 and 1855). However, I have a baptism date of 02 April 1843 (which would make Thomas 34 at the time of the marriage). He is listed in the 1851 Census with a birth date of 1843, and in every Census from 1891 until 1911 as being born in 1843. Mary Ann Barnes starts out with a birth date of 1855, which changes to 1853 by the time of her death in 1908 (her age is given as 55 on her death certificate/year of birth 1853).
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It is interesting that, of the "Prince" children, Charles and Elizabeth also named their father as Isaac Gibson, sea captain, on their marriages. (Mary's brother John named his father as Isaac Gibson deceased, master mariner).
The 1871 census shows all the children as Gibson, and the only Mary is the one listed as aged 12. So I too am coming round to the conclusion that the Mary who married Thomas Barnes was the one baptised as Mary Prince in 1860, and that she misrepresented her age on marriage.
Hopefully I can clear up why Charles named Isaac as his father. Charles Prince Gibson was my 2g grandfather, his daughter was Edith Gibson. I share dna with descendants of Isaac's sister Jane. That seems fairly conclusive proof that Isaac was Charles's father.