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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Minsterworth Lad on Sunday 05 April 15 08:46 BST (UK)
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Hello again, RootsChat Gloucestershire
I am deeply appreciative of the wonderful support I received following my earlier posts, thank you all.
I wonder if someone can throw some light upon "Old Elm Cottage, Churchdown", for that is what appears as the place of birth on the certificate of birth of my father in February 1920. Dad's father was an Italian Australian AIF serviceman who had returned to Australia in August 1919, shortly after marrying my grandmother. My grandmother and baby dad emigrated to Australia two months after his birth, but they were never reunited as a family - hence my dad never met his father.
Does someone know the history of Churchdown House, particularly its function during 1920? Anything of its doctors? Does it still exist? Are there photos available of Churchdown House as it was in 1920?
I would be very grateful for any/all information or advice as to where to look further.
Best wishes to all ... John
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Hi John,
The following website may be of interest?
www.homes.findthebest-re.co.uk/l/145328/elm-cottage-church-road-gloucester-GL3-2ES
Victor
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Hi John,
I have tried clicking on the website reference but I can't find the page, so I paste what I found.
Elm Cottage Church Road, Churchdown, Gloucester, GL3 2ESChurchdown - Tewkesbury
Overview
Value
Market
Neighbourhood
Crime
Nearby Sales
Overview
Estimated Current Value: £183,503*
Estimate Confidence: Low (Last price > 10 years ago)*
Last Sale Price: £95,000 on December 11, 2000
Change In Value: + £88,503 *
Property Type: Town Home
Ownership Agreement: Freehold
Construction: Existing Building
Rental Estimate: £734 pcm*
Historical Changes in Value
Five Year Difference: 12%
Ten Year Difference: 10%
Taxes
Purchase Tax Rate (SDLT) at Current Value: 1%
Taxes at Current Value: £1,835*
Local Tax Band: C
Area Summary
This town home is estimated to have gone up 93% since it's last sale price of £95,000, which is great considering the local market is still making it's way back from the recession.
Need ownership details, property maps and flood risks? The Land Registry's Property Search makes these available for a small fee. Put "Elm Cottage" in for the house number and "GL3 2ES" for the postcode to search for any documents they may have on this property.
* The Methodology tab below has more detail on how we calculate our estimates.
Victor
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There was an Old Elm Inn, also:
http://www.gloucestershirepubs.co.uk/AllGlosPubsDatabase/RAIGConnection.php?pubid1=2229
Added:
I can see an Old Elm Inn, and an Elm Cottage, not yet an Old Elm Cottage.
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There are references to a local history society in Churchdown, but it might no longer exist:
http://www.churchdowncommunityassociation.org.uk/whats-on/listing/churchdown-local-history-society
Do you want to know about Old Elm Cottage or Churchdown House?
Have you tried any goolgle searches?
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Thanks, Victor Harvey - Thanks, chempat
First, my apologies for mentioning Churchdown House - sorry, my only interest is in Old Elm Cottage - poor proof reading on my part.
Yes, I tend to think that the Bat and Ball reference could be a lead. Perhaps the "Cottage" was a part of the Old Elm Inn?
Again, thanks to both.
Cheers ... John
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Hello from an overcast morning in Australia
Sorry to bang on about this as I realise that one man's obsession can quickly become very tiring for others and I don't want to wear out my welcome on these pages.
Verifiable information regarding Old Elm Cottage and a photograph of the Old Elm Inn continues to elude me. I have nothing concrete to suggest a connection between the two, however, I would dearly love a photograph if the Inn in addition to information and a possible photograph of the Cottage.
An item held at Gloucestershire Archives - D7063/Box9/4 - refers to "miscellaneous deeds and documents held by Thomas Price, deceased 1933". Among the items listed are - "Churchdown: 'Grotto Villa' and eight messuages nearby; Sandywell Cottage, orchard called "The Plocks", the old Elm Inn, two orchards and cottage; Elm Villa."
I wonder if Thomas Price had an interest in Old Elm Cottage, or am I drawing too long a bow?
Both the Gloucestershire Chronicle and the Gloucestershire Journal, on 14 February 1920, include the announcement of my dad's birth at Old Elm Cottage.
A volunteer researcher from The Gloucester Historical Society kindly offered assistance but has, as yet, discovered nothing apart from the fact that dad was born there. I am grateful to her for her continuing efforts.
A photograph of the Inn is of great interest to me, even if there is no connection between it and the Cottage. I notice that a Hotel Development/Investment site even has a shot of the Bat and Ball dressed in the livery of the Old Elm Inn as a suggestion as to its future potential. The "dead pubs" division of the Historic Hotels organisation cannot assist with an original photo.
So, there we are. What, where, who was associated with Old Elm Cottage and what became of it? Also, can anyone point me in the direction of a publicly available photograph of the Old Elm Inn, please?
Best wishes and many thanks ... John
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Hi M Lad
Sadly the Old Elm Inn was demolished in 1938 :(
Check the link gloucestershirepubs.co.uk (http://gloucestershirepubs.co.uk) and just enter 'Old Elm Inn'
and you can read about it. There are no photos of the Inn :o
Joy
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Hello Joy
Many thanks for the link. It is a great shame that here is no photo of the original Inn. The murals by F H Warren, mentioned in the article, may have been of interest as they might have referenced the earlier origins of the Bat and Ball - I guess we will never know.
Again, thank you so much for your interest in my quest.
All the best ... John
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We live in Church View, Churchdown which is a recent building, our neighbour lives in Elm Cottage which is 17th or 18thC. The Old Elm Inn is just round the corner from us and I'm sure there are photos of it as it was originally. If the original poster is still interested I can try to find them and also take a photo of the cottage.
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It was the Old Elm originally then became the Bat and Ball in the 30s I believe, a year ago it was sold and has reverted to the name of The Old Elm. Elm Cottage was next to, and may even have been part of, the Blacksmith's forge on the corner of Blacksmiths Lane. That building is Forge Cottage. I'll have word with the chap who lives there and find out as much as I can about its history.
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Hi
Just to add - the pub is on Facebook and they have a pretty old photo on the site.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jc9/
Regards
Giggsy
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http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/157688
Don't know if this will work but it was taken in the 40s, the old pub is in front and the Bat and Ball has been built behind it before the old one was demolished
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Thank you, polomint and giggsycat, for your most welcome posts. The photos on the Facebook link are of great interest as is the featured shot on geography.org.
I have just about given up on learning anything specific about the exact location of Old Elm Cottage and its use at the time of my father's birth. It seems logical that it was attached to the Inn but Census and other records of that period indicate several "Elm Cottages" in Churchdown and its surrounds. The local Historical Society has not been able to assist.
I am intrigued as to the reason that my grandmother was staying at that particular cottage at the time of my Dad's birth. Although married, she was pretty well a "single mother", as her Australian soldier husband had departed by this time. I would love to know more about the cottage itself.
Perhaps the current resident of Forge Cottage may throw some light on Old Elm Cottage circa 1920. I am very grateful for your interest and your efforts in assisting me.
Best wishes ... John
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Lloyd George Land Survey 1909
http://www.glos1909survey.org.uk/code/search.php
or just Google:
Hereditaments in Churchdown Lloyd George Survey of Land Values
- this will take you directly to Churchdown - 422 listed...
If you use the search by address and just scroll down to Churchdown, up come all the properties with map reference etc. The maps are excellent and very useful on the website.
Few Elm's listed (inc 2 Elm Villas - map reference 26.9G which is near Pireton Lane - Almhouses etc)
e.g.
GA/D2428/1/12 - Hereditament Number 450
Place: Churchdown
Income tax parish: Barnwood
Occupied by: DUFFY, Thomas (M)
Owned by: Flower and sons, Messrs, High Street, Cheltenham
Type of property: business
house garden and buildings
address: Old Elm Inn
size: 1 acre 1 rood 36 perches
Map reference: : 26.13B (which means Map No. 26 - then click on 13 and up comes an ordanance survey map (sometimes just click once or twice else the screen goes black, but comes up eventually)
Gross Value : £1086
Site Value: 300
Tithe : £11
Buildings: £786
Taxable Value: £289
Poor Rate:
Number 136 - Size: 1 acre 12 roods, Gross Value: £48 and Rateable Value: £41
(if you know who was living 'anywhere' in 1909 - you can search by name)
e.g.
GA'D2428/1/12 - Hereditament Number 485
Churchdown, Barnwood
Occupied by, Collins, Joseph (M)
Owned by Flower & Sons, Stratford
The Elms, Churchdown, cottage and garden
Map Ref: 26.9S
etc etc
The Map section is in the heading on the front page (click on Maps) - you can scroll across and up the enhanced map section
Local knowledge in previous reply would help.
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Thanks, Capetown, for this link and your explanatory information.
As you say, there are quite a few variations on "Elm", but, with this and the local knowledge offered by 'polomint' perhaps there may be a way of identifying the exact site of the very Old Elm Cottage in which my Dad was born.
I have tried, without success so far, to seek the name of the doctor, or midwife, who may have been present at the birth but both Dad's birth certificate and his birth notice in the local press are mute on this (understandably). About a year ago I narrowed a possible list from the 1911 Census, acknowledging that much change took place between 1911 and 1920, but my research in this tenuous direction ran dry. The part address, Old Elm Cottage, is not associated with a specific street or resident in any record that I have seen.
Thank you, and others, who have breathed new life into my quest. All the best ... John
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When I was growing up can remember having a Street Directory at home. According to Gloucestershire Archives -
These usually only cover larger towns and cities, i.e. Gloucester, Cheltenham and Stroud. They list the head of the household of each house or business in each street. The streets are sorted alphabetically. There may also be a section at the end where individuals are listed alphabetically. As the houses are listed in the same order as they are on the street, you may find that odd numbers are listed first, followed by even numbers.
How to Find the Records
A select range of trade and street directories for Gloucester, Cheltenham, Stroud and Gloucestershire are available in the searchroom. They cover the years 1841-1974.
More directories are available but these need to be ordered from the strongrooms. etc
Some directories are available to view on self-service microfiche in the search room. It is also possible to view some directories for free at www.historicaldirectories.org.
If you are looking for a specific year, please ask a member of staff if we have it or contact us at
archives@gloucestershire.gov.uk
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Also there are Electorial Rolls records
England & Wales Electoral Roll 1832-1932 are on FindMyPast
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Hello John. Apart from being on this site once two years ago, I'm more or less a newbie on here and have just seen your query - is this still on ongoing one? If so, I have a little more information for you. The Old Elm Cottage was in Church Road and was by the Old Elm Inn, now pulled down. I have a book which has a photo of it - it seems to have stood at right angles to the pub and the road; if you visit the area or look on Street View, it looks to have been approximately where the Chinese restaurant etc is now. Under the photo it says 'The Old Elm Cottage, Church Road, occupied at one time by the Vye family, who rented a room to Dr Prance of Cheltenham, for use as a surgery, the village then having no resident doctor. On the right and behind are other cottages which were later replaced by shops. The Old Elm Inn is extreme right'. I hope this is useful information.
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Hi Ann, I was trying to help John with this last year because I live in Churchdown almost next door to an Elm Cottage in Church Road. I couldn’t find any reason why his mother would have had a baby there so I couldn’t go any further. The book I have doesn’t have any details about Elm Cottage. Is it possible for you to send me the photo that you have and any other information? Id be so grateful.
Thanks
Liz
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Hello Liz - I live in Churchdown too and will happily share the photo with you. It's from a book in a series called 'The Archive Series', and obviously this one is 'Churchdown', by Peter Copeland and Gwen and Brian Waters, pub. The Chalford Publishing Co. 1995. I have taken a photo of the photo but not sure how to post it on here; it may be of interest to the original enquirer.
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....I have just looked the book up on Amazon and it is listed for £160 so I don't imagine people will be rushing out to buy it! Worthwhile looking out for in charity shops perhaps. I also own a copy of 'A Village History - Churchdown 1904-1954' by Hermione Oram - this was my grandmother's, who was in service in the village before WW1, and married a Daniels whose grandparents lived in the Old School House on The Green. If anyone would like any information from either of these books, please let me know and I'll look it up, as they seem to be quite a scarce resource.
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I have The Story of Churchdown by Gwen Waters but not the other two.
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We often walk up to the Green and look at the Old School House, I’ve taken a couple of photos of it too. There are some lovely places up there.
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....I have just looked the book up on Amazon and it is listed for £160 so I don't imagine people will be rushing out to buy it! Worthwhile looking out for in charity shops perhaps. I also own a copy of 'A Village History - Churchdown 1904-1954' by Hermione Oram - this was my grandmother's, who was in service in the village before WW1, and married a Daniels whose grandparents lived in the Old School House on The Green. If anyone would like any information from either of these books, please let me know and I'll look it up, as they seem to be quite a scarce resource.
Hi Anna which one of the Daniels family did your grandmother marry? I am related to the family. Are there any relevant photos in Hermione's book? I have ordered the other book from Amazon for £7. We are probably cousins...
Kind regards
Katrina
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Hi does anyone have any photos of the Old School House on the green at Churchdown or of the Daniels family who lived there please?
I have just found out my family hails from the village and used to live in the house. Due to lockdown I am unable to travel there at the moment. I would be very grateful for any information.
Katrina
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I thought I’d posted a reply to you Karen but I can’t see it. Any way I’ve a few photos of The Old School House which I’ll try to attach.
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Hello Katrina - lovely to see your reply! My grandfather was William Daniels ..... which may not help as it seems every other Daniels was a William! His mother was Elizabeth Booth and his father was also William Daniels - they lived in Cheltenham and had twelve children altogether. The house was too tiny for them all so some were sent to live with their grandparents (William and Elizabeth née Price) and aunts/uncles at The Old School House, where they ran a tea garden. I have just remembered that I haven’t picked up my copy of the book that I lent out to PoloMint (I think!). We’ll have to meet up again in better times! I know there is a photo of some Daniels children on the gate outside the Old School House. I seem to remember that our local history society has a good photo too of older Daniels outside the house. None of the people are named though. What ancestor of yours lived there Katrina - I’d be interested to see the connection 😊?
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Hello Ann! Yes I still have both your books, as soon as it’s possible we’ll meet up for another coffee 😊 I’m trying to attach some phots for Katrina but I can’t seem to do it, can anyone help?
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Hello Liz - yes definitely, I think I still have your phone number 😊. Let’s hope it can be soon. I’ve never tried to post photos but I’ll have a go.
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I click on the attachments and other options button but nothing happens.
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I have just looked up on how to post photos but I’m none the wiser either 🙁
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It’s such a shame because I’ve copied some photos from the Churchdown books of The Old School house and I’ve also got a couple I’ve taken myself and I wanted to let Katrina have them. I also can’t find how to send a personal message, not having a good day !
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If you click on the person’s name, the personal message option appears, along with other stuff - hope that helps?
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Ah I see - that happens on my iPad but not on my phone 🙁. I hope your day is improving Liz 😊.
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Katrina has sent me her email address so I’ll send the photos to her. Hope you’re well Ann.
Liz
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Yes thanks, not too bad - I hope you’re well too? 😊
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We’re ok thanks, a bit fed up with the situation but we’ve both had the vaccination so let’s hope it won’t be too long before we have a bit more freedom.
Liz
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Thank you both for trying to help me. My great great grandfather was Charles Daniels brother of William who married Elizabeth Price. He moved to West Bromwich with his wife Sarah Gibbs and so the Birmingham based Daniels family began! Charles and Sarah had a son John who married Alice Ann Salcombe in St James church in Handsworth. Their son Frederick James married my lovely Nan Mary Clements. Charles Daniels went on to marry another 2 wives and had 9 children!
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Wow those Daniels were prolific weren’t they? I’m sure we must have so many relations all over the country! I haven’t been on Ancestry for a while but I do have a screenshot of the ancestors I managed to trace from William and Charles’ parents if you are interested? The Daniels didn’t move far from Churchdown at all and I got back to the 1700s to a baptism at Badgeworth Church which is only a couple of miles away. I seem to remember their mother’s side coming from up in the Cotswolds somewhere, Hawling rings a bell though I’d have to check once I get back on Ancestry again because I did save the certificates/census information on there. As far as I can remember, we come from a long line of agricultural workers 😊.
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I have the record of Giles Daniels and Anne Clark marrying in Badgeworth in the 1700's. Their son William (yes, another one) who married Mary Andrews in 1776 in Holy Trinity Church. Are they the ones you are thinking of? One puzzle (of many) is on a parish record of a Daniels marriage in Churchdown. On there is also recorded the marriage of a chap called Showell marrying a Sarah Spiers. I am related to the Showell family of Birmingham and it is thought we have connections to the Spiers family. Surely this can only be a huge coincidence? Have you heard of the Showells or Spiers?
The more I research the questions I seem to find...............
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Oh you got back even further than I did - I have William Daniels 1 (I’ve had to number them all so I don’t get them muddled!) and Mary Andrews but not William’s parents, just a little about Mary’s. No, I don’t recognise the names Showell or Spiers; I live in Churchdown and often walk up the hill where the burial ground is by St Bartholomew’s church - I’ll see if either name is recorded on any of the gravestones there. It does seem a huge coincidence though, you’re right. Fascinating stuff family history 😊.
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Hi Anna my email address is katrina.symonds@hotmail.co.uk if you find anything of interest and want to share it there