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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: James2you on Friday 27 March 15 16:14 GMT (UK)
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Hello,, I have the above as father to my Edgar Ernest C Postle, I have lost him and can not re trace George`s parents, I do not want to use anyone else`s tree because I did this once before and led down the wrong path. I thought George `s dad was a William but can not find him, All the Postle family members were born in the Great Yarmouth Area, can any one point me in the right direction.
Most of my old notes have gone and I`m not sure about William being George`s dad.
Thanks
John
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Hi John
Is this him in 1861?
RG 9; Piece: 1193; Folio: 107; Page: 4
Mary Ann Postle 36 widow Yarmouth
Martha Postle 18 Yarmouth
William Postle 14 Yarmouth
George Postle 12 Yarmouth
Samuel Larn 77 father Yarmouth
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1891 census
Class: RG12; Piece: 1498; Folio: 51; Page: 45
29 Row 99, Great Yarmouth
Postle, George Head M 43 General Labourer b Yarmouth
Postle, Catherine Isabel Wife F 42 b Yarmouth
Postle, Edgar Ernest Son M 17 General Laboureer b Yarmouth
Postle, Arthur Claude Son M 10 Scholar b Yarmouth
Postle, Elizabeth Madelene Daughter F 6 Scholar b Yarmouth
Sorry Jan - I started at the other end!!
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If so this looks like the family in 1851 - odd about the name though
HO107; Piece: 1806; Folio: 622; Page: 26
Yarmouth
All born Yarmouth except William
William Purcell 30 Fish Dealer New South Wales
Mary A Purcell 27
Martha Purcell 8
William Purcell 6
George Purcell 4
Mary Ann Purcell 1
Samuel Larn 62 wife's father Fish Dealer
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I thought John was looking for George's father?
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I just wanted to confirm George was Edgar's father as John had "lost all his notes"?!
And also to confirm George's approx. year of birth. ;D
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Something odd going on here. There is no George Postle born 1847 but there is
Births Sep 1847
PURCELL George Yarmouth 13 335
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Marriage
Mary Ann Larn
Single
Marriage 27 Oct 1842
Yarmouth St Nicholas, Norfolk, England
Father: Samuel Larn
Spouse: William Purcell
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In 1861 Mary Ann describes herself as a widow.
There is this death
Deaths Sep 1854
Postle William Yarmouth 4b 23
So between 1851 and 1854, William Purcell seems to have changed his name to William Postle. ???
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George Purcell , born 18 July 1847 , baptised 15 June 1849 at Great Yarmouth St Nicholas, parents William Purcell , fishmonger , and Mary Ann of Yarmouth.
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Youngest child who is on the 1851 but not the 1861 census
Births Jun 1850
Purcell Mary Ann G Yarmouth 13 406
looks as if she dies
Deaths Mar 1853
POSTLE Mary Ann Yarmouth 4b 23
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Very odd - it looks as if the family changed their name from Purcell to Postle between 1851 and 1853 for some reason.
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Just to clarify George was born 1847 and the surname Postle was recorded as Porke, Purcell in fact I have come across at least four different ways in which it was spelt.. I am hoping to find his father, Over the last 3 to 4 years I have seen trees with different dads , none of which I feel are right I do not even think that the one I first had is right, I had William.
Thanks again All
John
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Just to clarify George was born 1847 and the surname Postle was recorded as Porke, Purcell in fact I have come across at least four different ways in which it was spelt.. I am hoping to find his father, Over the last 3 to 4 years I have seen trees with different dads , none of which I feel are right I do not even think that the one I first had is right, I had William.
Thanks again All
John
I thought we'd given you his name?
It appears that George Purcell became George Postle - all the previous posts point to that. Look at the 1851 and 1861 census - Samuel Larn is the clue that it is the same family. So George's father is William Purcell who for some reason changed his name to Postle.
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Further to Groom and CB53’s info
William born 26 Aug 1846 was baptised the same day as George
Then on 18 Oct 1852
William and Mary were baptised to William Purcell, Labourer, and Mary
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01f1b/
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A big thank you to all that cleared up the Postle Purcell Porke mystery......
Thanks
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With the surname cleared up, and the census stating William was born Down Under, here's his birth details to take it back another generation:
William Purcell, b. 25 Sep 1820 at Port Dalrymple, New South Wales, Australia; baptised St. Philip's, Sydney, N.S.W. 27 May 1821.
His parents were John & Ann Purcell. The only other child I can see for this couple in Australia is Elizabeth, baptised the same day and place and William. She was born in Hobart, Van Diemen's Land (now Tasmania), on 22 May 1818.
A John "Pussel", son of John & Ann, was born in Hobart, Tasmania 25 Dec 1822, baptised there 6 Jan 1823 - not sure if this is another of the Purcell children, though the entry does state his parents were married in England.
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Toban, your a star, thank you very much for pointing me in the right direction, I think I had the wrong spouse for John Purcell, John & Priscilla Page, she was born 1778 Great Yarmouth Eng, & the couple wed 1799 Gt.Yarmouth Eng. I saw in your post the parents were wed in England, but now I am not so sure of the spouse as you have John & Ann, have you seen anything on her, where she was born ? If my spouse was right and the couple started of in Yarmouth Norfolk, had children in Australia & then at some point returned back to Yarmouth 1841 - 1851. I will keep looking, if you come across anything please let me know.
Thanks again
John
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Hey John,
Given the span of years between the marriage between John Purcell and Priscilla in 1799 and when John and Ann were having children in the late 1810s/1820s it could be possible that they are the same John, and that Ann is his second wife.
In fact, I found a burial for Priscilla 'Pastal' (another spelling variant to watch out for!), wife of John Pastal, aged 38, on 10 Jan 1808 in Great Yarmouth. A note in the register states her maiden name was Page, so this is definitely the wife of John m. 1799.
T
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Hello there. This family is my mail line, and I have completed extensive research into George's father William. You will find a lot on my web site shirley-elrick.com
The name PURCELL comes from Co Mayo in Ireland. George's grandfather was John PURCELL, born Kilcommon Mayo in 1782. This information is from John's army enlistment papers.
He signed up in 1813 in Yarmouth when he was 33
He went to Australia (New South Wales) with a wife Ann, and they had 2 children born in NSW. William and Elisabeth. William was born in George Town (northern Tasmania), and the family left Australia for points unknown when the regiment's tour of duty finished.
I believe John died in 1833 in Yarmouth.
A third child George was born in Yarmouth 1827.
As an aside I have Priscilla PAGE as John's first wife (M 1799 Yarmouth, she died 1808)
My fellow descendents and I have come to the conclusion that the name 'changed' to POSTLE because of the Norfolk 'lazy' accent, with POSTLE and PURCELL sounding very similar when rolling of Yarmouth lips....
happy to help anyone with copies of docs...
And would love to know if anyone has found any details of Ann, John's wife, and the marriage...
SHIRLEY
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Thanks Toban, did you come across anything for daughter Elizabeth at all, John & Ann`s daughter ?
Thanks again
John
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Hey John,
Yes I did find Elizabeth! Using Shirley's clues that John was a soldier (I had suspected as much - not many of the convicts sent here found their way back to the Old Country) I tracked her down in India.
From the British India Office burials register:
"Trichonopoly, 15th October 1824
Elizabeth, Daughter of John Purcell, Private in Hs. Ms. 48th Regt. and of Ann his wife, Aged 6 Years was buried by the Revd. Jas. Wright."
T
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Brilliant, When did John marry Ann & what was her maiden name, I saw that someone had them wed in Chelsea, but think that is wrong.
What do you think ?
Cheers again
John
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I'm not sure when they married or what Ann's maiden name was. If Priscilla was indeed his first wife - I'm a little sceptical on this, as he would've been on 17 (if his age on his army papers is correct) when he married - then his marriage to Ann would have been some time between 1808 and 1818.
The only candidates I can see in England are a John 'Purcill' marrying Ann Smith in St. Andrew Holborn 28 Apr 1811; and John 'Purcel' marrying Ann Nichols in the Chelmsford Cathedral 17 Jan 1814. Of these I would think the second more likely... In both cases both parties were single and of the parish, and neither John's could sign their name. Neither entry makes any reference to any Regimental position, as is sometimes the case.
From the end of the Peninsula War until their deployment to Australia, the 48th were stationed in southern Ireland, so it may be that they were married over there. But Irish records are few and far between, unfortunately, so it would be a hard task to track them down...
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Toban - what a gold mine you are. Thank you so much for the India stuff.
You will have seen that I don't have a clue where Ann came from. I am comfortable they did not marry in AU.
John's age when he was buried in Yarmouth agrees with that on his army papers. However, I still like the PAGE marriage as George (son born to John and Ann in Yarmouth after getting back from India) was charged with stealing bedding (and I think the actual bed) from Ann Page in 1863. He was acquitted. I am thinking here that there may have been a family relationship of some sort.
Of the 2 possibilities for his 2nd marriage (Ireland or Yarmouth) I make the following 'statements'.
Ireland - If I could find that John was actually in Ireland before the regiment left for AU, then I would think this the most likely.
Yarmouth - The fact that John and Ann ended up back in Yarmouth after he got out of the army leads me to believe there must have been something to take him back there. If Ann had family there, that would be a good enough reason. I am sure that John's roots were all in Ireland, and I have never found anything that links this family with Norfolk. William (the son born in Tasmania) was in the fish business in Yarmouth in 1840's. Not labouring, but dealing in fish, and getting into money trouble. 1841 census has him in Yarmouth Gaol for debt.
Whilst there is no proof, I would believe it would be easier to get into the fish business if you already had family connections within. This brings me back to the idea there were family connections with Yarmouth, which could only come about from Ann's or Priscilla's family. Note I have not found any children of John and Ann PAGE in Yarmouth.
SHIRLEY
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One more thing - I found Ann in the 1841 census in Yarmouth, Laughing Image Corner
Registration district Great Yarmouth
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 793
Book number 8
Folio number 33
Page number 19
Record set 1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
In the same house is Christopher PAGE aged 30. She says she was born in Norfolk....
Her son William who was in the Yarmouth Gaol in 1841, sentenced to 14 days for debt (and who is my direct ancestor) was also on her listing as well. This is of course an assumption on my part, but he was also shown as being born in Yarmouth, so if they got him wrong, they could have got her wrong as well.
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All responders - John PURCELL is my umpteenth great grandfather. He was born in Co Mayo, Ireland in 1782. I have DNA matches to other people who are descended from one generation earlier than John (most in USA NOW). I won't give chapter and verse regarding provenance as this will make this note far too long, but if you look him up in Family Seach's One World Tree it is all there.
I do not know why nor how he came to be in Great Yarmouth when he married Priscilla PAGE in 1799. Yes that is quite young, but I have done a LOT of work on this man. Supporting evidence of his age abounds. I have a theory regarding an uprising in Co Mayo, with John being sent 'away' to keep him out of trouble, but I have absolutely no proof.
Priscilla died in Jan 1808. No children recorded that I can find.
John joined the army in Yarmouth 28th Nov 1813. The Northamptonshire Regiment (48th Foot) was recruiting all over England. I have read his enlistment papers.
The army records are not complete, but a John PURCELL was with the 48th in Fermoy (Ireland) Dec 1816, then in New South Wales in 1817. He and Ann sailed (waltzed?) to NSW on the Matilda.
I have not clearly identified the Ann who was married to John by the time the regiment left for garrison duty in Australia. This was the first regiment who were allowed (or encouraged) to take the wives of the lesser ranks to the colonies. One theory regarding his marriage is that he married Ann in order to have a wife in the colonies - ie not long before the regiment left Ireland. They were certainly married, as I am CERTAIN the army would not have been transporting de facto partners.
The 2 Australian children were born (I believe) in George Town (northern Tasmania) whilst John was stationed there. John was the pay clerk for George Town. There are a couple of newspaper ads regarding financial stuff where he is named.
Elizabeth died at the age of 6 in India, and William (my ancestor) and John and Ann were back in Yarmouth shortly after that.
One more child was born after they returned to Yarmouth, George or George William in 1825. In 1841 William was in the lock up in Yarmouth (14 days for debt) clearly showing a birthplace of New South Wales.
Yet another theory follows, but I need to explain first that (1) I was born and lived in Yarmouth for my first 10 years (2) I keep in contact with other close relatives from this branch who still live there, two of whom are also researching the family (3) I understand the local Yarmouth Dialect.
My theory regarding the name change is that John well knew his name was PURCELL, but no other people with that name lived in Yarmouth. A few people named POSTLE did though. In the Norfolk dialect, POSTLE and PURCELL would sound almost the same. Hence over time the name simply became POSTLE. To support my linguistic theory, one memorable marriage certificate has the bride named as PARCEL. Also a word that would sound remarkably similar to the other 2 when drawled out by a Yarmouth citizen.
I will gladly answer all queries.
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Is this the burial you have for Ann?
17 Aug 1860, St Nicholas, Great Yarmouth
Ann POSTELL age 66
Abode Yarmouth
Possibly her in 1851?
Great Yarmouth
Ann Pestell 59 Head Widow Lodging House Keeper born Soham, Cambridgeshire
Esther Brown 22 Niece Unm Servant born Norwich
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Trish, thanks for replying. It would be great if that Ann in 1851 IS her as it has a birthplace. So naturally I had a good look.
They were in 3 Alfred Terrace in 1851. Esther BROWN unmarried is her 22 year old niece, so I tried to find either of them in earlier records.
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There is only one Esther BROWN born in Norwich in 1829. She was the daughter of William and Elizabeth, born 19th April.. Chr st John de schepelcher. Her father was a butcher.
Previous child for the same couple in the same parish - William 1823. This makes the parents most likely William BROWN and Elizabeth GIRLING who married 30th Nov 1820 SO - the widow Ann PESTELL 'may' have been born GIRLING, but of course there are other ways of being a niece. (inconclusive)
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In 1861 the lodging house was being run by Mary LAYTON, so no help there.
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An Ann PESTELL died 20th August 1960. One of her executors was Robert Anson RICHMOND, a baker. (Probate). That Ann was aged 66 (GRO Index).
AND I BELIEVE you are CORRECT. There is a burial in Yarmouth in August of Ann POSTELL with no entry in the deaths, and a death of Ann PESTELL of the right age and death month in the GRO.
So now we have 2 possibilities. The Ann who died in Yarmouth as a widow in 1860 is certainly the woman who was buried in Yarmouth, and who was living in Yarmouth in 1851 with a niece Esther Elizabeth BROWN. What we don't know for certain is that she is the mother of George and William (who I believe was in Laughing Image Corner in 1841, with son William who was ALSO listed in the Gaol).
I then turned to the executor of Ann's Will.
Robert Anson RICHMOND was born in 1830. He married Mary Ann HATCH in 1852, both were residents of Yarmouth their whole life. No clues there. Note Ann's estate was very small.
A link eventually surfaced. An Ann HATCH married Joseph PESTELL in Great Yarmouth 4th Feb 1816, so I am thinking that Ann POSTEL/PESTELL who died in 1860 is NOT the one who was married to John PURCELL/POSTEL the Irish soldier.
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You are very logical and I agree that I had the wrong Ann ::)
Trish :)
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You AND I had the wrong death. It was only your hint re the census that showed this up. So thanks....
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Thank you for making me feel better about it :)