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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Cynfelin on Sunday 01 March 15 13:00 GMT (UK)

Title: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Sunday 01 March 15 13:00 GMT (UK)
I've hit a brick wall! Can someone help with tracing Sarah Ann Lee b. 14th February 1876 at 2 Silk Mill Row, South Hackney to Emma Lee formerly McDouall( along with variant spelling of her surname) & Thomas Lee. Was she placed in the care of London County Council, did she die, was she adopted, did she emigrate to USA, or Canada, QUESTIONS, QUESTIONS that I cannot find answers to.The last known confirmed information is the 1881 census, and her baptism record. She was baptised on 1 July 1881 at All Saints Clapton Park Hackney.

Any help would be appreciated
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Sunday 01 March 15 13:16 GMT (UK)
Hi

1891 census all born Hackney

Thomas Lee b 1851
Emma b 1851
Sarah b1875
Emma b 1877
John b 1880
Annie b 1886

Margp
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Sunday 01 March 15 14:28 GMT (UK)
Hi Margp,

I have that census record, is it right? What happened to this family remains a mystery. Something has happened between 1881 and 1885.In 1894 Thomas and Emma are living at 14 Bushberry Road, Hackney.So, the 1891 census with the added children could be right. The 1901 gives me more brick walls. Did Thomas Lee die in 1896. I have a death certificate for Thomas Lee died 28th February 1896 at 84 Grove Buildings, (occupation mechanical engineer journeyman) Mile End. Informant E Lee. Is that Emma? I shall never know.
Thomas's occupations vary; he was a ropemaker, pointsman, labourer. bricklayer. Ropemaker and pointsman confirmed.
My dilemma  continues.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Sunday 01 March 15 14:40 GMT (UK)
Hi

Have you got any of the marriages, for his children, to see if he his deceased on them

Margp
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Sunday 01 March 15 14:47 GMT (UK)
Hi Margp,

Thanks for that. Bearing in mind that one child  does not appear in that family unit (born 1878 is in the care of London County Council, which makes the birth dates too close for me to take it as the right family.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Sunday 01 March 15 14:54 GMT (UK)
The 1881 census does not have the children mentioned on the 1891 census. If that particular reference is correct then on the 1881 census Emma b 1877 and John b1880 should appear within the family unit.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Sunday 01 March 15 15:08 GMT (UK)
They may have been staying with relatives?

Margp
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Sunday 01 March 15 15:36 GMT (UK)
Who was the child, that was in the care, of the London City Council
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: lizdb on Sunday 01 March 15 16:45 GMT (UK)
JUst to have it in from of us, here is the 1881

6 Oswald Street, Hackney
Thomas Lee 30 Twine Spinner bn Hackney
Emma 26 bn Homerton
Sarah 5 bn Hackney
Thomas 3 bn HAckney

Was an address given at her baptism I see you say it was 1881 very near to the census
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: StevieSteve on Sunday 01 March 15 16:58 GMT (UK)
Also note that living at the same address is Samuel McDowall, 56, bootmaker from Hoxton and family (inc wife, Eliza, 38)

In 1891 they are living in West Ham, Essex
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Sunday 01 March 15 17:00 GMT (UK)
JUst to have it in from of us, here is the 1881

6 Oswald Street, Hackney
Thomas Lee 30 Twine Spinner bn Hackney
Emma 26 bn Homerton
Sarah 5 bn Hackney
Thomas 3 bn HAckney

Was an address given at her baptism I see you say it was 1881 very near to the census
Yes the baptism was where they were living on the 1881 census
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Sunday 01 March 15 17:31 GMT (UK)
Hi,
I've got all the information on the McDouall side of the family, I've even found family members. It's just Sarah Ann Lee's information I need to complete this side of the family, She does elude me!
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: lizdb on Sunday 01 March 15 19:42 GMT (UK)
Im beginning to have doubts about the 1891 census, though cannot find anything better!
The reason being that in Jun 1881 both Sarah and Thomas are christened together on the same day, address Oswald Street. So the 1881 census is the right family, and Sarah and Thomas must be aged 3 and 5 when christened
IF the 1891 census is correct, then they would have  Emma and John in 1881, and whilst they may not be on the census with them if staying with granny or whatever, one would have thought they would have been included in the family baptism. If they had been "done" as tiny babies, then you would have expected Sarah and Thomas to have been chr with them, if they suddenly realised they had not been chr.

 Which child of Thomas and Emma are you descended from?
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Tuesday 03 March 15 16:49 GMT (UK)
 It does look that Sarah will remain anonymous, as it appears that all you genealogists have hit the same brick wall as myself!

Where would I find details/list of children placed in care on the website?
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Tuesday 03 March 15 23:17 GMT (UK)
Hi

I think that the only way to resolve this, is to send for one of the extra children, on the 1891 census, to see who the mother is, also look at the marriages for the children, you know belong to Thomas and Emma, I always investigate the people around them, and it usually comes up with the answer

Margp
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Wednesday 04 March 15 08:35 GMT (UK)
Hi

What happened to Thomas the son, did he end up in Wales? also you give several occupations, for Thomas the father, which records do they come from, we can only do half a job, if we  only have half the information.

Margp
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Wednesday 04 March 15 12:25 GMT (UK)
Hi Margp,

All the information has been collected via census and certificates. Thanks for widening my thinking regarding where to search further.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Wednesday 04 March 15 12:38 GMT (UK)
It does look that Sarah will remain anonymous, as it appears that all you genealogists have hit the same brick wall as myself!

Where would I find details/list of children placed in care on the website?
It all depends where they were at the time, and where they were sent to, the local Archive to these area's may have the records.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Wednesday 04 March 15 12:40 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Its seem that you want to keep a lot of this private, if you would like to PM, with the full fact I will see what I find

Marg
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Wednesday 04 March 15 13:07 GMT (UK)
Thanks everyone to have tried to solve the mystery of the disappearance of Sarah Ann Lee.I've resolved to searching the USA census from 1901 onwards  to see if I shall be lucky!
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: MargP on Thursday 05 March 15 08:54 GMT (UK)
Thats me done

Good luck
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: lizdb on Thursday 05 March 15 09:27 GMT (UK)
I've resolved to searching the USA census from 1901 onwards  to see if I shall be lucky!

Have you found a lead that she may have gone to USA then?
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Thursday 05 March 15 10:56 GMT (UK)
Hiya,

Amongst a lot of information from family members is one that a Sarah Ann Lee  (USA NO AREA KNOWN)was looking for her brother in UK.No dates available I'm afraid. As well I've a marriage certificate for a Sarah Lee ( No Ann)who married a Edmund Gissing ( father Thomas Lee) in 1893 No issue. Sarah died in 1903 This could well be the right Sarah! One child Edward Thomas Gissing did survive to the age of 29yr, and lived in Littlemore Oxfordshire.The other two Sarah Elizabeth b 1895 d 1895 and Edmund Thomas b 1898 d 1898.
So, you can see my dilemma. This could be the right family. The American linkcould be ruse.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Tabbicat26 on Tuesday 18 July 17 12:15 BST (UK)
I'm new to Rootschat so not sure if this post will work!  Pease could someone with information about the Lee/McDowall family contact me.  I'm particularly keen to confirm that Emma was still with her family in 1882 as someone has suggested that she may be the Emma McDowall who was living with my Thomas Brider in Newcastle in 1882!!!  I think this suggestion is ridiculous but would like to be sure!
Thanks for your help,
Tabbicat26
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Tuesday 18 July 17 15:43 BST (UK)
What age was Emma McDouall in 1882?
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Tabbicat26 on Tuesday 18 July 17 16:17 BST (UK)
Unfortunately I have no way of telling, as she wasn't on the 1881 census and she died in 1900 when her age was given as 42 but I have doubts as to the accuracy of that!
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Tuesday 18 July 17 16:54 BST (UK)
Emma McDouall Lee appears on the 1881 census with her husband Thomas Lee.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Tabbicat26 on Tuesday 18 July 17 19:58 BST (UK)
Do you know if that is definitely the same Emma on the 1891 census living at 132 Chapman Road, Hackney?
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Wednesday 19 July 17 15:58 BST (UK)
Tha answr is no. That census return may well relate to my family tree, but I have no proof.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Tabbicat26 on Wednesday 19 July 17 17:06 BST (UK)
Thank you
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Wednesday 19 July 17 17:35 BST (UK)
Can I ask what is your connection with this tree. I have got the last known address for the family in 1894.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Tabbicat26 on Wednesday 19 July 17 19:29 BST (UK)
Of course you can, the short answer would be "no connection at all" but please let me explain!  My paternal great grandmother was Olivia nee Brider and because the Brida/Bryda/Brider/Bryder name is so rare I've amassed a great deal of information about the family and have a very detailed tree going back to 1781.  The only piece of information I still lack after some 30 years of research is the marriage of Thomas Dowsett Brider and Emma McDowall.  The following is an extract from an article that was published in the journal of the East Surrey FHS - when you get to the end of it you'll find the explanation for my interest in Sarah Ann's mother Emma who was, of course, nee McDowall 

Thomas Dowsett Brider’s birth was registered 1845/DEC in Lambeth, his parents being Thomas (born 1815) And Mary Ann nee Dowsett.  Thomas was with his family in Lambeth at the time of the 1851 census but, as far as I can tell, he’s missing from the 1861, 1871 and 1881, possibly, like one of his brothers, he'd left home and become a sailor, after all he would have been 16 by the time of the 1861 census!

The birth of Thomas and his wife Emma’s first known child, Rebecca Annie, known as Annie, was registered 1882/SEP in York when her surname was given as Bryder.  Thomas and Emma went on to have six more children who were all registered in Newcastle upon Tyne apart from one who was registered in Gateshead.  The surnames of the two who immediately followed Annie were, like hers, recorded as Bryder.  At the time of the 1891 census the family were living in Gateshead and Thomas was described as “excavator” and in 1901 Thomas, described as “watchman” was with his family in Elswick, Newcastle, but without Emma who had died in 1900.  By 1911 Thomas was living in “an institution” in Elswick.  There is confusion over his age and also his birthplace has been wrongly given as Lincoln

Despite my very best efforts I’ve not been able to find the marriage of Thomas and Emma, the search being made even more difficult by confusion over Emma’s maiden name.  The new GRO index which gives mothers’ maiden names has five versions of Emma’s surname: McDonall (3 times), Macdowall, McDougal, McDonald and McDool.  A good few years ago now Emma’s daughter-in-law stated that Emma’s surname was MacDowall but she was relying on birth certificate information; she added that Thomas had worked as a labourer at Vickers, Elswick.  I have searched every marriage index I can find using all five variants of Emma’s surname coupled with Brida/Bryda/Brider/Bryder, but to no avail.

The only clues I have is that Thomas and Emma’s grandson has told me that, as a child, he was given to understand that his grandfather came from Ireland and was a Roman Catholic.  Coming from Ireland doesn’t necessarily mean that someone was born there so possibly Thomas had gone there to find work and had met and married Emma, which might well explain the R.C. idea.  For some reason Annie’s baptism was delayed until 1886 when it took place in the Anglican church in Wetherby.  On the 1891 census Emma’s birthplace is recorded as London but there’s no sign of her birth circa 1858, being registered there under any of the surnames so I’m wondering if it should read Londonderry, the more so as Thomas’ Lambeth birthplace is wrongly transcribed as Lincoln.

Someone read the foregoing article and decided to try to help and came up with the idea that, as the Emma who married Thomas lee was the only one she could trace it must be the same person, her theory being that Emma had left Thomas Lee and was co-habiting with my Thomas Brider.  She was also convinced that my Thomas's surname was Brader rather than Brider!

My thinking is that if I can prove that Emma Lee was still with her family in 1882 , when Rebecca Annie Brider was born, then she can't possibly have been Rebecca's mother.

I came across your look-up request when I was searching for something else and thought it was too good a chance to miss!  I think it highly likely that it's the same family in 1891 as the names tally and the ages are more or less correct.  Chapman Street is only a short walk away from Oswald Street where they were in 1881, with Emma's father living next door, not all that far from Silk Mill Row (gone now!) where they were at the time of their marriage.

My guess is that the answer is in Ireland where Emma McDowalls were two a penny but so far I've had no luck with those records, many of which are missing.

Thanks for your interest! 
 
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Thursday 20 July 17 09:51 BST (UK)
Thanks for the explanation of your interest. Unfortuneately, it is not the same family. The 1891 census family may well be yours, I cannot see that relates to my tree, although I'm tempted! The Macdouall's came from Scotland and as you rightly point out the variant spelling has made tracing the family a nightmare.I've yet to find out what happened to Sarah Ann Lee, I've traced a marriage to a Edmund Gissing that may well be correct, if so, she died at a young age and so did her son.
Thomas and Emma will remain a mystery unless, as you kind of hint she either remarried, or cohabited. Ond day someone may well solve the puzzle of Emma McDouall( B 1855) and Thomas Lee (B 1851).
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Tabbicat26 on Thursday 20 July 17 10:46 BST (UK)
You said you had the address of the family in 1894, does that enable you to say if Emma was with Thomas at that point, if so that confirms she's definitely not my Emma, which is what I was hoping to prove.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Thursday 20 July 17 14:16 BST (UK)
Yes, both were residing at the same address in 1894. In fact a few streets away from Chapman Street.

Good luck with your searches, I too have been looking for over 3o years for this mysterious pair!
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Tabbicat26 on Thursday 20 July 17 14:43 BST (UK)
Thank you SO much; this means I can rule Emma Lee right out.  If you enjoy a good story try looking for Brider and Bryder (both spellings) on the Old Bailey website.  The small number of entries testifies to the rarity of the name as does the fact that the bigamist and Martha the assault victim share my line of descent and I know exactly who the others mentioned are!  I'm very grateful for your help.
Title: Re: Sarah Ann Lee
Post by: Cynfelin on Monday 07 May 18 16:15 BST (UK)
At last I can close my searches for Sarah Ann Lee b 1876. Sha married Edmund Gissing at the age of 17yrs, had three chldren two died in infancy the third died at the age of 26 yr. Sarah died in 1901.