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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: fe_nyx on Wednesday 25 February 15 22:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I'm hoping someone has Henry John Morgan in their tree, or one of his children, and can help piece together the family with me. This will likely be a lengthy post, so apologies, but there is a lot to get down.
Henry John Morgan was born c1862 in London (place of birth recorded on his burial record) and died 9 November 1909 in Christchurch.
He married Jane Elizabeth Fitzer c1881, who was also born in London c1860. After Henry's death, Jane remarried to Walter William Pike in 1916, she died in Timaru 16 July 1924.
From what I have found, they had (at least) 3 children born in the London area between 1881 and 1889.
1. "First Son" Morgan - who may have died before 1916 as he was not recorded on the obituary for his brother who died in 1916. I don't know his name, but the obituary for this brother states that he is the "second son" of Henry and Jane, so my assumption is that there was one born before him.
2. Caroline Maria Morgan - c1883/84. She married Robert Briton Wilson in Christchurch in 1909.
3. Henry Charles Morgan ("second son") - c1889. He died 6 March 1916 in Christchurch.
I have then found the family in Victoria, Australia with the following 8 children:
1. Lucy Jane Morgan - 1890-1890 (died at 5 months old)
2. Edith Morgan - 1891
3. Frederick George/John Morgan - 1893-1894 (He is recorded as Frederick George for his birth, but Frederick John for his death)
4. Adeline May Morgan - 12 December 1894 - 28 August 1972 (died in Timaru). Adeline married Francis Henry Bayliss in 1916 in Christchurch. She is buried in Timaru with her mother.
5. Alfred Edward Morgan - 1896. He married Christina Sangster Butterworth in 1925 in Ashburton. (Christina's brother married one of Alfred's sisters).
6. Ernest Arthur Morgan - 1898.
7. Ada Alice Morgan - 1900. She married William Hamilton Oswald in 1919, and died in NZ in 1969.
8. Martha Lilian Morgan - 3 June 1901. She married Albert Henry James Barnes in 1920 and died in NZ in 1983.
I have found brief birth records online for the above 8 children that show their parents to be Henry John Morgan and Jane Elizabeth Fitzer.
And then they come to NZ and have a few more children:
1. Harry Walter Morgan (my great grandfather) - 3 Feb 1903 - 14 Jan 1978. Born and died in Christchurch. He married Agnes Tod Martin 29 October 1929.
2. Lucy Jane Morgan - 26 May 1905 - 3 July 1992. She married Alfred Ernest Butterworth (brother of Christina Sangster Butterworth) in 1926.
3. Eileen Edna Morgan - 1907 - 4 June 1981. She married Frederick George Britt 16 June 1927, and both are buried in Wellington.
I can't find passenger lists to show the family traveling from London to Victoria (which must have been around 1889 and 1890 to tie in with the children's births) or from Victoria to Christchurch (between 1901 and 1903, again to fit with births).
So I am hoping that someone recognises one of these names. There may have been more children born in London, but as of yet I haven't found any that I am confident with.
Thanks for reading! Any suggestions on my next step would be much appreciated :)
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Hi fe_nyx
Gosh ... large family ... with births spread out over nearly quarter of a century ! :o
Unusual too that nobody seems to be researching this family - well, not that I've been able to find anyway.
But to start with, some good news.
The following newspaper articles flush out another "child" ... who may or may not, be the eldest son ?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Press" (Chch) - 15 October 1913 - page 6 / column 1 - Supporting Their Mother
... mentions William Thomas MORGAN, Adeline May MORGAN and Alfred Edward MORGAN ... charged with failing to support their mother.
"Star" (Chch) - 14 October 1913 - p. 5 - Husbands and Wives -- Mother's Maintenance
.... a more informative article (though Adeline is named as "Adelaide"): ... Mother (not named) but age given as 51 years ... lawyer mentions she has 12 children. Mother comments she has two children at home and two at St. Saviours ... then states she has (another) elder son*
[Note: * "another elder son" ... just highlighting this now as I have more info for son William Thomas Morgan. ]
see next >>
~ Lu
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William Thomas MORGAN
There is a WW1 Army file for this man - Regt. No. 25/1782 :
It's a very lengthy file and I don't have time to read through it all, but suggest you take a look in more depth. ;)
I couldn't see the (usual) Attestation form ?? which might give further detail (but have only really skimmed the file). It does confirm mother's name, Mrs E. J. MORGAN of Rolleston ... later Mrs PIKE ... and an address of his sister/brother-in-law ?
From what I was able to find on the file, William Thomas MORGAN was born on 3-11-82 (3 November 1882). If you look at page 1 - in the (top) section that says "religion", it looks like his birthplace might have been entered ? I think I can see the word "London" ??
Here's the link for viewing on Archives NZ's website.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21377335&digital=yes
[Click on his name, to view full file. ]
~ Lu
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From what I have found, they had (at least) 3 children born in the London area between 1881 and 1889.
1. "First Son" Morgan - who may have died before 1916 as he was not recorded on the obituary for his brother who died in 1916. I don't know his name, but the obituary for this brother states that he is the "second son" of Henry and Jane, so my assumption is that there was one born before him.
Hi again
Are you able to give a link to the obituary, please ?
[I did locate death and In Memoriam notices for Henry Charles (Charlie) MORGAN .. no mention by name of his siblings though ? ]
And there is the obituary in the "Grey River Argus" - 16 March 1916 - Personal -- which stated that his parents live at Sydenham and he leaves two brothers and two sisters ??? ... which doesn't exactly stack up ?? [Note: * Info given in obituaries is not always strictly correct. ]
~ Lu
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Henry John Morgan was born c1862 in London (place of birth recorded on his burial record) and died 9 November 1909 in Christchurch.
Another question ... ;)
You say "burial record" ... do you actually have his death printout (death certificate) ??
That should ideally contain information on the ages and sex of the children who survived him.
I'm guessing that his wife may have been the informant to Henry John's tragic death in 1909 (I see she gave evidence at the inquest).
~ Lu
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Could this be the shipping list to NZ?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12446-95647-72?cc=1609792
in 1902
Mrs Morgan, 40
"+ 8 children"
girls 16 10 7 2 (would fit with Caroline, Edith, Adeline, Ada)
boys 12 5 4 (Henry, Alfred, Ernest)
+ infant under the age of 12 months (Martha)
Mrs Morgan is marked as "England", the children as from "Victoria".
Henry John, (and William Thomas ?) perhaps travelled together, on an earlier ship?
It would be worthwhile to get a Victorian birth certificate for one of those children - they give lists of previous children and also where the parents were married. I cannot see any track of marriage in England for this couple so far.
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http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Star" (Chch) - 14 October 1913 - p. 5 - Husbands and Wives -- Mother's Maintenance
.... a more informative article (though Adeline is named as "Adelaide"): ... Mother (not named) but age given as 51 years ... lawyer mentions she has 12 children. Mother comments she has two children at home and two at St. Saviours ... then states she has (another) elder son*
... just a thought on this "elder son".
Maybe she is referring to Henry Charles (Charlie) bc 1889. ?? Though he's not as old as William Thomas (bc 1882) ... he was in fact older than Adeline May and Alfred Edward.
"Charlie" seemed to be engaged in full employment and doing well for himself, so possibly he was already contributing to his mother's upkeep ??
~ Lu
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It would be worthwhile to get a Victorian birth certificate for one of those children - they give lists of previous children and also where the parents were married. I cannot see any track of marriage in England for this couple so far.
... had been about to mention the purchase of a Victorian birth cert. (wonderfully informative, they are) ;D.
Like jorose, I also haven't found a marriage for Henry / Jane Elizabeth (Elizabeth Jane) ?
I'm guessing that is the correct Elizabeth J. FITZER - 18 - b. Whitechapel - domestic servant in the household of William and Eizabeth WARD at Hackney, in the 1881 UK Census ??
~ Lu
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Hi fe_nyx
I see you are located in Christchurch and just wondered if you'd already explored the Church registers (BDM) at ChCh Library ?
~ Lu
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Hello
Just some stuff on the Fitzers
I think your right about the 1881 census entry.
The family look like there were baptised en-masse to John and Harriet Fitzer porter 42 Wellington St .
Jane Fitzer bapt 29.8.1869 Whitechapel born 8.10.1861
Henry born 18.11.1868
Rebeckah 5.3.1867
James 6.2.1869
Can't see a birth registration for Jane.
1871 census Wellington st
John Fitzer 42 sorter of foreign skins Bethnal Green
Harriet 39 Bethnal Green
Peter 16 wine gum maker
Harriet 12 nurse maid
Jane 8 Whitechapel
James 2
Catherine 1mth
On the 1861 census John is a porter at 8 Temple Terrace Whitechapel and Harriet a seamstress.
Children John 9,Peter 5,Harriet2 and Charles 10mths.
1881 15 Nicholas St Shoreditch children Arthur 7 and Lucinda 5
The couple married at St Leonrds Shoreditch 10.2.1851
John Fitzer cooper Hoxton Old town s of John Fitzer cooper
Harriet Whitehead same d of John blacksmith
wit John and Lucinda Barker
Ciderdrinker
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Cheers Ciderdrinker ;) ... yes I'd also come up with the baptism (1869) for Jane FITZER (d.o.b. - 8 October 1861).
Bit frustrating ... some records I'm finding give her as Jane Elizabeth ... and others as Elizabeth Jane.
She is referred to as Elizabeth MORGAN when giving evidence at the inquest into her husband's death in 1909. ;D
~ Lu
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Page 13 of William Thomas Morgan's war record confirms dob as "3rd November 1882".
Page 24 says birthplace "London".
Page 38 repeats birthdate/place.
That should relate to a birth registered Dec quarter 1882. But there is no birth for William Thomas (or Thomas William) Morgan or Fitzer in London. It is likely that he didn't know his precise place of birth, only remembering that his family were "from London". Perhaps he was born elsewhere. Or perhaps the year was wrong. Or perhaps his birth was registered under a different name. :(
The entry into Victoria may be one of those that only lists "Mr and Mrs + children" - I cannot see an obvious entry for them. Do we have confirmation that Caroline Maria and Henry Charles were born in England?
Caroline Maria seems to list herself as "Caroline Marie" in some records (birth of child, also death index).
Now the following seems interesting. A coincidence, or did Henry John have a first wife? Can anyone trace the fate of this family?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N17X-65T
1886 - christening of Caroline Marie Morgan to Henry John Morgan and Caroline
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFLV-2JV
1887 - christening of Henry George Morgan to Henry John Morgan and Caroline Frances
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Wow! You are all amazing!! Thank you so much.
Once I have had some coffee and my brain is working properly, I will start going through the information you have provided. I really appreciate the effort, thank you :)
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"Star" (Chch) - 14 October 1913 - p. 5 - Husbands and Wives -- Mother's Maintenance
.... a more informative article (though Adeline is named as "Adelaide"): ... Mother (not named) but age given as 51 years ... lawyer mentions she has 12 children. Mother comments she has two children at home and two at St. Saviours ... then states she has (another) elder son*
[Note: * "another elder son" ... just highlighting this now as I have more info for son William Thomas Morgan. ]
see next >>
~ Lu
The comment that she has 12 children supports what I have found. I have 14 children in total, with 2 passing away in Victoria.
I wonder if the elder son mentioned in Henry Charles, I have a note that he was a horse trainer (The Press, 7 March 1916), so he could possibly have earned a decent wage to help support her.
"Elder son" could just mean older than those at home or older than Alfred. I've just started reading through the WW1 archived stuff for William Thomas. I think with the information on there and the newspaper articles, it seems very likely that he is the first son, if his date of birth as 1882 is accurate.
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From what I have found, they had (at least) 3 children born in the London area between 1881 and 1889.
1. "First Son" Morgan - who may have died before 1916 as he was not recorded on the obituary for his brother who died in 1916. I don't know his name, but the obituary for this brother states that he is the "second son" of Henry and Jane, so my assumption is that there was one born before him.
Hi again
Are you able to give a link to the obituary, please ?
[I did locate death and In Memoriam notices for Henry Charles (Charlie) MORGAN .. no mention by name of his siblings though ? ]
And there is the obituary in the "Grey River Argus" - 16 March 1916 - Personal -- which stated that his parents live at Sydenham and he leaves two brothers and two sisters ??? ... which doesn't exactly stack up ?? [Note: * Info given in obituaries is not always strictly correct. ]
~ Lu
Sorry, yes I meant memoriam, not obituary. No it doesn't mention any names, which is a shame.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP19180306.2.2.4&srpos=2&e=-------10-CHP-1----0henry+john+morgan--
Interesting that the Grey River Argus article says his parents live in Sydenham, since his father had died in 1909. Henry was buried in Sydenham cemetery though, so I guess *technically* he is still in Sydenham...
Odd that it mentions only 2 brother and 2 sisters. Perhaps they were his favourites of the bunch? haha. Or maybe just those 4 living at home with their mother at the time of his death?
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Having read through the military records for William Thomas, I can see why he wasn't able to contribute to his mothers upkeep. It seems as though he had a congenital deformity - hemiplegia, which caused his left side to be weaker and smaller than his right. Its amazing, that in light of that, that he went to war at all, and was of all things, a rifleman! Service worsened the symptoms and he was discharged from duty. He went on to have outpatient appointments at the hospital for treatment of the limp he developed.
Further through the records, it again states his date and place of birth: 3 Nov 1882 London.
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I'd also wondered about a previous "marriage" for Henry John MORGAN ??
It seems likely to have been this one ?
St. John of Jerusalem, South Hackney
14 July 1884
Henry John MORGAN - 22 - bachelor - occ: French Polisher - of 3 London Lane
Father: Henry MORGAN - occ: French polisher
Caroline Frances PHILLIPS - spinster - 22 - of 23 Bayford Street
Father: Thomas PHILLIPS - wood turner
Witnesses: Thomas PHILLIPS and Emma Elizabeth PHILLIPS
[Bride and groom both signed their names ].
~ Lu
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I'd also wondered about a previous "marriage" for Henry John MORGAN ??
It seems likely to have been this one ?
St. John of Jerusalem, South Hackney
14 July 1884
Henry John MORGAN - 22 - bachelor - occ: French Polisher - of 3 London Lane
Father: Henry MORGAN - occ: French polisher
Caroline Frances PHILLIPS - spinster - 22 - of 23 Bayford Street
Father: Thomas PHILLIPS - wood turner
Witnesses: Thomas PHILLIPS and Emma Elizabeth PHILLIPS
[Bride and groom both signed their names ].
~ Lu
This seems absolutely likely! See below:
Surname: MORGAN
First name(s): HENRY JOHN
Date of death: Tuesday, 9 November 1909
Cemetery: Sydenham
Date of burial: Thursday, 11 November 1909
Block number: 10C
Plot number: 3
Age: 47
Address: HAZELDEAN ROAD
Occupation: POLISHER
Place of birth: LONDON
Years in New Zealand: unknown
Robert Briton Wilson & Caroline Maria MORGAN m. 8 December 1909 at St Michael's, Christchurch.
ages: 30 / 25; occ: restaurant proprietor; born: both London;
parents: Byron & Mary Wilson, nee READ, farmer.
Henry John & Elizabeth Jane Morgan, nee FITZER, french polisher.
witness: herbert Painter, Barbadoes st, Christchurch: Charlotte Rait, Worcester st, Christchurch:
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So then perhaps he married Jane Elizabeth/Elizabeth Jane in Australia, as I also haven't found any record of a marriage between her and Henry in the UK.
There is a tree on ancestry that has their marriage date as Dec 26 1881 in England, but is without a source, so I am extremely hesitant to take this as fact until I see proof.
That then could mean Caroline is the mother of William Thomas, Caroline Maria/Marie and possibly Henry Charles. Although Henry was born about 5 years after Caroline. But the inclusion of the names Thomas and Caroline could be a nod to herself and her father, as families so often did.
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Hi fe_nyx
We need to do further digging. ;)
Here is Caroline PHILLIPS' baptism (which may shed a clue as to why Henry John's daughter was so named ?)
Baptism at St Mary, Haggerston, Middlesex -- 28 May 1862
Caroline Frances PHILLIPS
Born on : 2 July 1862
Parents: Thomas PHILLIPS (occ: Turner) and Maria PHILLIPS of 20 Queens Road? / Street?
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Hi ... have you found Henry John MORGAN on the 1881 UK census ??
Given his occupation of "French Polisher" - and Thomas PHILLIPS (f/o Caroline Frances) being a wood turner - I wonder if Henry John MORGAN might have been in the employ of T. PHILLIPS ?
I need to look at further records.
~ Lu
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Ooh Maria... now that is interesting.
I wonder what happened to Henry George Morgan b1887, son of Henry and Caroline?
It would be odd if 2 years later Henry John had another son and named him Henry also.
I'm thinking either Henry George passed, OR Henry George and Henry Charles are the same man.
I'm meant to be working but this is far more interesting, so I will do some digging round today and see what I come up with.
Thank you so much for the time and effort you have all put in to this, I really appreciate it.
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No I haven't found Henry John on any census records yet. With only a rough idea of DOB and place, I came back with too many possibles, so ignored them all until I had something more concrete to go on.
I'm making a to-do list now :)
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It's okay ... I've found Henry John with his family.
1881
Essex - Leyton - 3 Capworth Street
MORGAN - Henry - head - married - 37 yrs - occ: French Polisher - born Middlesex
- Eliza - wife - 40 yrs - b. Bedfordshire
- Emma - dau - unmarr. - 22 Domestic servant
- Henry - son - 19 - unmarr. - French polisher
- William - son - 16 _ errand boy
- George - son - 14 - scholar
- Thomas - son - 12 - "
- Arthur - son - 9 - "
... all these above children born. Middlesex (no place name stated)
- Arthur - son - 9
- Fred - son 7
- Albert - son 5
- Walter - son 3
- John - son - one yr.
.... all these children born Leyton, Essex :
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You didn't answer my earlier question re: do you have death certificate (printout) for Henry John MORGAN ?? :)
~ Lu
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In the 1881 census return for Henry John MORGAN, you'll note a lot of familiar names (his siblings) ...
names he gave to his own children. ;)
~ Lu
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I made a note of that 1881 census record ages ago as being the family I thought most likely to be his one. But I didn't have his fathers name, so I was never sure.
I also have a note for 1871, they were in Camberwell then.
I also have a baptism record I found for Henry John, parents Henry and Eliza, just in case they did turn out to be the right family
Name: Henry John Morgan
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 11 Jan 1863
Father's Name: Henry Morgan
Mother's name: Eliza Morgan
Parish or Poor Law Union: Islington St Mary
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Registers
Sorry, I didn't meant to ignore your question, no I don't have his death certificate.
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Sorry, I didn't meant to ignore your question, no I don't have his death certificate.
That's okay :).
Just that it's a helpful document to have in terms of verifying information gathered from other sources. [If you do decide to purchase from NZ BDM - cost about $20.40 - it's preferable to order the printout (registry copy) which tends to give more info (than a certificate which is a transcription and open to error). ]
~ Lu
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I think next step should be to ascertain what became of Caroline Frances MORGAN (wife). :D
Will see what I can find.
If 1881 census info is correct for Elizabeth J. FITZER - she was residing in the Hackney area - then she may well have met up with Henry John MORGAN in that location ?
Although the children of Henry John and Caroline Frances MORGAN were baptised in Co. Essex, it's possible HJM returned to Hackney or vicinity of ?
~ Lu
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Adding this in case it's of assistance in tracking Caroline Frances MORGAN (nee PHILLIPS) :
1871
Hackney / Shoreditch - Haggerston West -- 6 Hare Walk
PHILLIPS - Thomas - 46 - wood turner - b. Herefordshire
- Angelina M. * PHILLIPS - wife - 35 - b. Cambridge
- Elizabeth - dau - 11
- Caroline - dau - 8
- Winnifred - dau - 6
- Harry - son - 3
- James - son - 11 months ... all children born London, Middlesex
[Note: * Angelina M. ... poss middle name is "Maria" ??? ]
Edited to correct census year.
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Sorry, I didn't meant to ignore your question, no I don't have his death certificate.
That's okay :).
Just that it's a helpful document to have in terms of verifying information gathered from other sources. [If you do decide to purchase from NZ BDM - cost about $20.40 - it's preferable to order the printout (registry copy) which tends to give more info (than a certificate which is a transcription and open to error). ]
~ Lu
It's something I have been wanting to get, for verification purposes, but I've recently finished up my degree and being a poor student meant even $20 to non essentials was too much. I'm always very skeptical of online information, so to have something "in my hand" would be great. I think that will be one of the first things I treat myself to once I go back to work properly in a few weeks (how sad is that, what a treat! haha)
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Name: Angelina Maria Casburn
Spouse: Thomas Phillips
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 29 Jun 1852
Parish: St Matthew, Bethnal Green
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Robert Casburn
Spouse Father: John Phillips
Register Type: Parish Register
Looks like it :)
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Understand completely (the poor student thing), :) and you deserve more worthy rewards.
The death record will always be there, so leave it's purchase for the future. :)
I initially thought chasing up the name MORGAN might prove bothersome, but we're on a bit of a "roll" now ... and along with the spade work you've already done, things are coming together quite nicely.
Have news about Caroline F. MORGAN ... see next posting >
~ Lu
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Yes ... Thomas PHILLIPS / Angelina Maria CASBURN marriage looks correct. ;D
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So, THIS marriage at Clerkenwell, Middlesex. ::)
St Paul's, Clerkenwell -- 1 March 1896
William Alfred POOLE - 42 years - Widower - occ: Barman
Father: William POOLE (deceased) - gamekeeper
Caroline Frances MORGAN - 33 - Widow
Father: Thomas PHILLIPS - (deceased) - Wood Turner
Both bride and groom residing at 8 Langton Avenue
Witnesses: James John PHILLIPS and Helen? BREWSTER
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So, THIS marriage at Clerkenwell, Middlesex. ::)
St Paul's, Clerkenwell -- 1 March 1896
William Alfred POOLE
Father: William POOLE (deceased) - gamekeeper
Caroline Frances MORGAN - 33 - Widow
Father: Thomas PHILLIPS - (deceased) - Wood Turner
Both bride and groom residing at 8 Langton Avenue
Witnesses: James John PHILLIPS and Helen? BREWSTER
Ohhhh boy!
That's a bit of a spanner in the works :(
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The only death I can find for a Henry John Morgan between 1884 (when daughter Caroline was born) and 1896 when Caroline marries William Poole is:
Deaths Mar 1884
Morgan Henry John 37 Shoreditch
but this puts him born in 1847, which is far too early.
So, a random theory: Henry meets Jane, decides to leg it over to Australia with her and start a new family of a bazillion kids, leaving poor Caroline on her own. Rather than admit her husband is an adulterer she decides to tell people he is dead - leaving her free to marry again and carry on with a happy life.
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Well, not so much a spanner. ;D
It's helpful in explaining why there probably wasn't a marriage between Henry John MORGAN and Jane Elizabeth FITZER.
I would say that Caroline was not a "widow" in the true sense of the word - (maybe a deserted wife).
If Caroline's husband had, (and it certainly seems "he had"), vanished to another part of the world, then after a period of 7 years separation from a prior spouse, she was (legally) free to re-marry. ;)
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Difficult to know who deserted who ?
Maybe Caroline had taken up with Mr POOLE whilst already married to Henry John MORGAN ?
[Relinquishing children to the father's care is perhaps a tad unusual for those days ? ]
Thinking outside the square now (in the absence of travel / immigration records for Australia for HJM and Jane Elizabeth) ... did they scarper to AUS with the children, using assumed names ???
::)
Certainly births were registered in VIC using the surname MORGAN from 1890... but they may well have used aliases to gain passage to Australia ?
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Still looking for Caroline POOLE in later census returns.
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It then makes me wonder if Henry and Jane actually legally married at all.
Henry is an interesting character, leaving his wife and then the way he died.
Ok then, Henry goes to Australia either with or without Jane. They have 8 children together, then come to NZ and have 3 more.
Caroline Maria is obviously a child of Henry and Caroline's marriage - she must go with Henry to Australia (or at least get over this way at some point) as she marries and dies in New Zealand.
So what about Henry George? Is he Henry Charles the horse trainer who dies in 1916? When I found records of he children born in Victoria, he wasn't among them. Like I said earlier, Henry George either dies before Henry Charles was born, or they are the same person.
Which means he followed his father over here as well.
And then there is William Thomas. My assumption would be that he is Henry and Caroline's child BUT his birth is 2 years prior to their marriage (I know its not impossible to have children before you are married), so did Henry have a child before even meeting and marrying Caroline? And we know he ended up in NZ.
We seem to have answered a load of questions, and created a few more. But I actually feel like we are getting somewhere, which is brilliant!
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Just for interests sake:
Name: Henry Morgan
Spouse: Eliza Macnay
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 18 Feb 1862
Parish: St John, Hoxton
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Henry Morgan
Spouse Father: William Macnay
Register Type: Parish Register
Edited to add: Emma Morgan, their daughter as per census records, was born c1859. Maybe it was the Morgan thing to have a child before marriage? ;D
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Perhaps not...
Births Mar 1859
MCNAY Emma Sarah Shoreditch
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So what about Henry George?
Mmm... don't you mean "Frederick George" ?? [As mentioned earlier - died as Frederick John ??)
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So what about Henry George?
Mmm... don't you mean "Frederick George" ?? [As mentioned earlier - died as Frederick John ??)
Nope, Henry George:
Name: Henry George Morgan
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 07 Dec 1887
Christening Place: St. Stephens Church, Walthamstow, Essex, England
Birth Date: 24 Oct 1887
Father's Name: Henry John Morgan
Mother's Name: Caroline Frances
I had a thought about William Thomas, after seeing that record for Emma McNay - perhaps he was Caroline's child from before marriage:
Dec 1882
Phillips William Thomas Kensington
Perhaps he traveled to Aus under that name?
I'm really open to considering just about anything at this point!
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ooops ... too many Henrys (yes, I see now who you mean by Henry George) ;D
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I wonder if Henry George did die?
Name: Henry George Morgan
Event Type: Death
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year: 1888
Registration District: Edmonton
County: Middlesex
Event Place: Edmonton, Middlesex, England
This is the only birth record that fits for Henry Charles:
Name: Henry Charles Morgan
Event Type: Birth Registration
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year: 1889
Registration District: Edmonton
County: Middlesex
Event Place: Edmonton, Middlesex, England
So maybe Henry John and Caroline moved from Walthamstow after Henry was born, to Edmonton, where wee Henry George died and then Henry Charles was born? From memory, back in the day when I lived in London, I think those 2 places are quite near each other, so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine they moved from one spot to another.
I think this will end up being one of those things that I just never fully sort out and can only make guesses at.
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And then to go back to the reference of Henry Charles being the "second son" - with Henry George dying, that would make him to second living son.
Or, if William Thomas is actually the son of just Caroline (before she married), then maybe they mean second son, excluding William, who has no blood ties to either Henry John or Jane Elizabeth. So Henry George #1 son, Henry Charles #2 son.
More speculation I'm afraid...
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I am researching Ada Alice Morgan, who married William John Oswald