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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Andyw65 on Saturday 21 February 15 15:26 GMT (UK)
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I have hit a bit of a brick wall and wonder if anybody can help me please.
From census returns, birth certificates and family legend I know that John William Moor married Isabella Sturrock who went on to have 7 children the first of which was my grandmother.
On John William's birth certificate (DOB 11/09/1866) his father is quoted as John Moor, merchant seaman and on the 1871 census his mother is shown as a widow living with John and his sister at 3 South Street, North Shields. Question 1 - was 3 South Street a boarding house as there a lot of families living at the same address?
However, I digress. from census returns, Isabella Sturrock's father is George Sturrock who is a shoemaker. Now comes the mystery - John and Isabella's marriage certificate shows John's father as George (not John) Moor and is a cartman. John is also shown as being a labourer, but he like his father was a merchant seaman. Likewise, Isabella's father is shown as George Sturrock (true) also a cartman. On the different census returns George Sturrock is shown as shoemaker then Poultry and fish dealer and finally fish dealer. Isabella is also noted in subsequent census returns as a fish dealer. One of the witnesses is Ellen Sturrock who was Isabella's sister. Isabella's birth certificate also states that her father George was a shoemaker at the time of her birth.
Is it beyond the realms of possibility that there were two weddings involving John William Moor marrying Isabella Sturrock, who were both the same age? I have searched and searched within a 6 year time frame for other john moors and other Isabella Sturrocks, but to no avail. Do I have the right marriage certificate with the wrong details or the wrong marriage certificate with the right details?
Everything points to this being the wrong marriage certificate and I know that Ancestry is littered with Sturrocks, but I just can't find another wedding that fits.
Could someone come up with any suggestions please? I'd be most grateful.
PS our family history group is compiling a book of stories about our grandparents and this is the missing link in my Grandma's story.
Many thanks
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Ooops I forgot to say that they got married in 1887 and my Grandma was born in 1890
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On John William's birth certificate (DOB 11/09/1866) his father is quoted as John Moor, merchant seaman and on the 1871 census his mother is shown as a widow living with John and his sister at 3 South Street, North Shields.
So his real father died when he was very young - did his mother remarry a George by chance so he put him as his father?
If both fathers were put down as George and cartmen I suppose it's possible a mistake was made on the certificate but :-\
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Excellent idea - that is one line of further research that hadn't occurred to me ::) I'll see what I can find.
Thank you
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Hi,
It is quite possible that there has been a mistake made on the marriage certificate if it was transcribed at the local register office (happened to me a couple of times). Have you seen the Parish Record entry?
They appear to have been married at Holy Saviour's Church in Tynemouth. I'm not sure what records are held at North Shields Library (and the website is down this evening) but you could email them : Discover@Northtyneside.gov.uk
Regards,
Trini
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Alternatively I could look at the church record next time I'm at Northumberland archives - probably this coming week. Just let me know the date and confirm, if possible, that it was at Holy Saviours
Christine
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Hi,
It is quite possible that there has been a mistake made on the marriage certificate if it was transcribed at the local register office (happened to me a couple of times). Have you seen the Parish Record entry?
They appear to have been married at Holy Saviour's Church in Tynemouth. I'm not sure what records are held at North Shields Library (and the website is down this evening) but you could email them : Discover@Northtyneside.gov.uk
Regards,
Trini
Hi Trini
Many thanks for your suggestion - I'll certainly try their website and email them as well.
The plot is actually thickening. As per a previous post I tried to discover whether John William's mother remarried, which would explain (maybe) John's father being entered as George. So I started searching for John's mother and now it looks like she died when John was 8 and his sister 12. What would have happened to them then? However, I've sent for her death certificate to see if that can shed any more light on things, but now think I have to widen my search even more to include John's aunts and uncles. It's only the 2 March and I've already used up my 'certificate allowance'!
As ever, I really appreciate everyone's help and suggestions.
Andy
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Alternatively I could look at the church record next time I'm at Northumberland archives - probably this coming week. Just let me know the date and confirm, if possible, that it was at Holy Saviours
Christine
Hi Christine
Thank you so much for your offer to look at the church record - I really appreciate it. I've attached a copy of the marriage certificate so hope that helps.
It is such a mystery - right names, right ages, right father of the bride but with the wrong profession, witness is a sister of the bride, but wrong father of the groom (but this may now have been an uncle with both John William's mother and father deceased) and wrong occupations for bride and groom and their fathers.
Thanks once again for everyone's contributions.
Andy
PS I tried to attach ta copy of the marriage certificate but the file is too large. I'll try and figure out how to reduce its size and post later. On the marriage certificate it says the Parish Church in the Parish of Tynemouth Priory.
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Hi Andy
Don't worry about attaching a copy of the cert. I suspect you might breach some copyright rule if you did! If you could just give me the date of the marriage I will take it from there.
The parish church of Tynemouth Priory is Holy Saviour's, as Trini says so we are on track with that.
Christine
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Hi Andy
Don't worry about attaching a copy of the cert. I suspect you might breach some copyright rule if you did! If you could just give me the date of the marriage I will take it from there.
The parish church of Tynemouth Priory is Holy Saviour's, as Trini says so we are on track with that.
Christine
Hi Christine
Ooops - just as well that the file was too big, but will remember that one for the future!
The date of the marriage was 11 October 1887. I hope your search is easy and fruitful on my behalf.
Thank you once again
Andy
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It's in my book ready for Wednesday - let's see what the vicar has written.
Christine
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Thanks Christine - it'll be fascinating (though I hope not frustrating!) to find out :)
Andy
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Hi Andy,
Alas, the vicar was in agreement with the registrar - both fathers shown as George with occupation listed as Cartman. I must admit that when you see both names, one under the other, it looks seriously coincidental.
I think you are going to have to think a bit laterally now. Where were they both in 1881 and with what parents. If John was an orphan then he is likely to be with family so did John senior have a brother called George? Adoption was very informal then so living with a family as their son would make him their son - at least in their eyes.
How do you know that John William Moor the mariner is the correct John William Moor - they are very common names. Perhaps Isabella married a different one with a father called George.
One question answered creates at least three more :-\
Christine
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Morning Christine
I can't thank you enough for checking this out for me, even though it wasn't the hoped for outcome :( However, even negative outcomes ensures that I can pursue the correct line of research.
So, it's back to the drawing board with information that I know, as you say - think laterally, and make a few assumptions. I have my grandma's birth certificate that shows John William and Isabella Sturrock as her parents, but I suppose it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they either got married elsewhere, or didn't get married at all.
So it's back to Ancestry for me.
Thank you once again, you have been very kind and very helpful.
Andrea
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Andrea,
Looks like after Isabella died, John remarried to a widow Annie Thompson. John William Moor and Annie Thompson, Tynemouth, June qtr 1908. They can be found easily in 1911 on Ancestry with joint family. Do you have that cert, to see who he gives as his father?
Alan.
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Thanks Alan - I never thought of pursuing his second marriage.
Andy
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The JWM from 1871 census is living with an aunt and family in 1881.
8 Dene Terrace, North Shields,
Jane Johnson, wid, 48,
John W.Moore, Nephew, 14, Joiner, b. North Shields,
+ several Johnson children.
Its definitely the same person, as the Johnson family are living next door to the Moor family in South St. in 1871.
Jane appears to be Johns mothers sister.
John Moor married Margaret Ann Harper, 30 Oct 1861, Tynemouth. Fathers Andrew Moor and William Harper.
Thomas Johnson married Jane Harper, 17 Oct 1853, Tynemouth. Fathers James Johnson and William Harper.
So question is whether this JWM is the same one who married Isabella Sturrock and later Annie Thompson. Does the marriage to Isabella give any other clues, who is the second witness? Any address for the groom? Failing that, the marriage cert to Annie Thompson may confirm his father as John, in which case the earlier father George was perhaps a mistake. If he says his father is George again, then maybe the JWM from 1871 and 81 is the wrong one.
Alan.
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Alan - all this additional information is brilliant - thank you so much. I was at the point of banging my head against that 'brick wall'. I spent all yesterday morning searching Moors for an illusive aunt or uncle who could have taken JW and his sister Elizabeth in when their mother died. I dismissed the Harper element as being an impossible task because of not knowing married names. The idea that they could have lived next door never entered my head.
This exercise made me doubt all my other research into my grandma's family, so I also spent a lot of time yesterday starting from scratch with the facts that I know. I can honestly say that I can only be positive about records going back to the 1891 census that shows JW, Isabella and my grandma aged one year old. The fact that my grandma was called Margaret Ann makes me believe that she was named for JW's mother, which could reinforce that I have the right JW, but my JW was definitely an engineer in the merchant navy.
I have to confess to taking some of my information from other people's public family trees and it all matches from JW and Isabella downwards as I remember all my great aunts and their names. So, as you say my next step is to get Isabella's death certificate to confirm her date and place of birth. JW's second marriage certificate to see how his father is described - as you suggested Alan.
When can I be 100% sure that I have the right John William Moor(e) and Isabella Sturrock (there appears to be quite a few Isabella Sturrocks but only one married a John William Moor).
Once again, I can't thank you and Christine for trying to help me unravel this mystery.
Andrea
PS I've now found the records that you referred me to Alan and have them safely filed in my 'Unsolved Mystery' file.
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Andrea,
Looks like after Isabella died, John remarried to a widow Annie Thompson. John William Moor and Annie Thompson, Tynemouth, June qtr 1908. They can be found easily in 1911 on Ancestry with joint family. Do you have that cert, to see who he gives as his father?
Alan.
If we could find out which parish church they married in (always provided they married in a parish church) I could check it out at the archives - save the cost of a certificate.
Christine
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Andrea,
Looks like after Isabella died, John remarried to a widow Annie Thompson. John William Moor and Annie Thompson, Tynemouth, June qtr 1908. They can be found easily in 1911 on Ancestry with joint family. Do you have that cert, to see who he gives as his father?
Alan.
If we could find out which parish church they married in (always provided they married in a parish church) I could check it out at the archives - save the cost of a certificate.
Christine
The code number for the marriage on the North Tyneside Registrar's website is C-1, which according to this list I posted on the Northumberland Resources Board, is Christ Church, North Shields
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=550486.0
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:-[ :-[ I have that list on the office wall - right next to where I sit, so why didn't I think to use it? :-[
Thanks, Jen :)
Andrea - I can take a look at the marriage at Christchurch on Wednesday if you want me to
Christine
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Yes please Christine that would be very kind. I've already used up my month's 'certificate allowance' and some and it's only the 8th!
Christine, Alan and Jen, I really can't thank you enough for all your help and suggestions. When I received John William's and Isabella's marriage certificate it made me doubt all the research I'd done up until then. But a very valuable lesson - check, check and check again before making assumptions.
Interestingly, according to my Grandma (Isabella's first born daughter), her stepmother Annie Thompson was the archetypical 'wicked stepmother'. This fact was reinforced by a contributor to Ancestry who posted to someone else's family tree that Annie 'turned out to be the stepmother from hell for his (John William's) children. She was cruel in the extreme and never missed a chance to beat them.' I have sent a message to the poster, but he posted this story in 2007 and I haven't received a reply from him.
Apart from not wanting to beaten on this I am writing a family history for my three grandsons, two of whom are now Australian. I thought it would be a good idea to give them an idea of their 'Pommie Roots'
Thank you one again
Andy
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Andy,
Who is the second marriage witness on John and Isabellas marriage cert. You said one of the witnesses was Isabellas sister. In case the second witness can be linked to John. Any address given for John?
Alan.
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Hi Alan
The first witness is James Mavin (at least I 'm pretty sure it's Mavin - the 'v' is slightly questionable) with Ellen Sturrock as the second witness. Annoyingly the residence for both JW and Isabella at the time of the marriage is given as 'Tynemouth'.
A bit more information that I've found, which I hope is correct (but I'll be double checking!), is that Annie Thompson's first husband died in 1901, but she had another son, George, in 1907. JW and Annie married in June 1908, which was 6 months after my Grandma married her first husband and 2 months after my Grandma's first child was born. Family legend had it that Grandma and my great aunt couldn't stand their wicked stepmother so moved out as soon as they could. This would seem to indicate that JW and moved Annie and her children in before marrying her. Boy is this story complicated!
Andy
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In that case you've hit lucky because thats his brother in law.
JWM sister from 1871 census, Elizabeth Maria Moor married James Mavin, Tynemouth 1879, confirmed on North Tyneside Registrars site. James and Elizabeth and family are living at 32 Beacon St., North Shields in 1891, 3 pages away from John W Moor and Isabella. Elizabeth and James named one of their children Margaret Ann Harper Mavin.
Alan.
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Haven't I just!
I have JW's birth certificate which states Father John Moor Seaman Merchant Service; Mother Margaret Ann Moor, formerly Harper living in Clive Street North Shields. My Grandmother's name was Margaret Ann Moor.
So this has brought us full circle - do I have the right marriage certificate with the wrong information or do I have the wrong marriage certificate with a different John William Moor who married the wrong Isabella Sturrock at about the right time with their family members as witnesses?
The George Sturrock I've got is a shoemaker who married Margaret Ann (yes another Margaret Ann!) Askew who gave birth to Isabella in 1866.
I've learned a lot from your help and how you obtained the information so thank you once again.
Andy
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Bingo!
Christchurch, Tynemouth 19th April 1908, by banns
John William Moor age 41, widower, Engine man of 65 George Street.
Father - JOHN Moor (deceased), Mariner
Annie Thompson age 40, widow of 48 Charlotte Street
Father - George John Clark (deceased), Mariner
Witnesses - John Boocock and Mary French
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Bingo indeed! Thank you so much Christine once again.
With the research that you and Alan have done on my behalf I am now positive that the marriage certificate I have of John William and Isabella is the correct certificate but with the wrong details for their father's occupations and John William's father's name. Does that happen often I wonder? The final pieces of the jigsaw are the details on JW's second marriage certificate (thank you for saving me the certificate fee!) and the witnesses on their first certificate - Isabella's sister and JW's brother-in-law.
Once again I can't thank you both enough for your kindness and all the time you've taken to help me out. I can now go farther back with confidence ..... until I hit the next brick wall, but again, you've both taught me a lot about researching and thinking laterally.
Andy
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We're always here for brick walls ;D
Happy hunting
Christine